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[lifa-cobex]

I really hated Kaz in this game.

I imagined he would slowly go mad and loose his shit as the game progressed.
I feel like he was just pissed off from the very start and never really had and character progression.
Aside from the burger thing his personality felt kinda flat.

I preferred the womanizing, Del Boy yuppie Kaz. (Kaz who was always after cash).

 

[LiK]

I was wondering why they said that.. they I saw everything by the bolded parts, there is no discussion when you throw offensive statements to build your points, think about it

Just ignore him. Dude likes to toss insults at anyone who questions his logic. I didn't even ask him a question, lol

I really hated Kaz in this game.

I imagined he would slowly go mad and loose his shit as the game progressed.
I feel like he was just pissed off from the very start and never really had and character progression.
Aside from the burger thing his personality felt kinda flat.

I preferred the womanizing, Del Boy yuppie Kaz. (Kaz who was always after cash).

The closest to light-hearted Kaz was the hamburgers discussion. Wish we had more of those moments.

 

[Luigi87]

Wait, the game explicitly states this? I must have missed it. I mean, it's obvious that the parasites inspired Foxdie and I'd go so far as to say that's where the Patriots AI got the idea for the Triple S program too. But I can't believe Foxdie was even conceived at this point since there was no need for it without the Genome Soldiers and the fact that Snake, Liquid and even Naomi, the one who developed Foxdie, were all children at the time. Which tape does Zero mention this in?

It gives a type of origin to FOXDIE (but yes, Naomi is the actual creator) as in Zero's tapes (the Skull Face one) after SF asks about the Vocal Cord parasite, Zero mentions that it was an interesting experiment essentially, but now they're getting it down to narrowing targets to specific individuals (as opposed to whole groups).

 

[KOMANI]

I was wondering why they said that.. they I saw everything by the bolded parts, there is no discussion when you throw offensive statements to build your points, think about it

It's unfair to narrow down to those who don't like the game to not playing as Big Boss. Then you're simply being ignorant to the argument. I've seen it done many times.

Also, it's unfair to pick one post out of context and prejudge a person by it. I don't go out of my way to insult someone. I just don't. If I acted in a way, there was a reason.

 

[wiibomb]

I just saw the famous mission 51 with the Eli plot conclusion.. I'm so sad it couldn't be finished, since that would have been a very satisfying conclusion to his branch

 

[DevilFox]

All this nitpicking, good lord lol.

There is no way Kojima could have satisfied you guys, just no way.

You're right. For this to happen Kojima should be a good writer and director, something he was no more since MGS3 and that's 10 years ago. Seriously, it was very easy, everything was in place already.

I think ever since he went into prequel mode, it never satisfied us. And hey, with all the conspiracy theories, there's bound to be nitpicking. It's fun.

Uh? MGS3 is a masterpiece and its conclusion was damn good, nothing was retcon if you exclude BB's eye. PO has shitty gameplay but story wise is good for BB development as a leader, just not enough. With PW and MGS4 serious shit started to happen and it only got worse each game.

 

[Roni]

*Who created the Patriots AI network - we already knew it was done by Zero and the gang. Strangelove's involvement is tangential at best, if that's what you're referring to.

Tangential? In the game's canon Strangelove was pretty much Einstein to the field of AI.

*How did the word change in order to accommodate etc. - I'm pretty sure this was all MGS2 and 4. They sought to control information and ended up creating a perpetual war economy.

The Patriot AI's are computational systems, they require digital input in order to function. They would not work on an analog world. Anderson was responsible for ARPA/DARPA and therefore for the creation and proliferation of the Internet.

*How did Big Boss survive Outer Heaven's destruction - I refuse to believe that there's a single Metal Gear fan alive today who was honestly wondering about this. Nevermind the fact that they already provided an explanation in MGS4 (Big Boss barely survived, got cybernetic prosthetics afterwards) that is now directly violated by this new game. Par for the course for Kojima though, right?

I only recall MGS4 dealing with Zanzibar Land's ending leading into Big Boss' capture. And I do care about that because it was the one thing that felt wrong to me. Metal Gear 1 & 2 were created in a much simpler time, you're right about that, and that led to the use of a cliche of the big bad villain surviving a previous encounter everybody thought he didn't. This solves that issue in an interesting way.

*The reason why Ocelot was so eager to believe etc - And what is that reason? I have no idea what you're driving at here.

Ocelot had already done something similar in 1984 to MSF's best soldier.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Guess you weren't around for MGS2 and the shit storm that entailed?

It's still my no.1 game of all time.

Um, yeah I was. I enjoyed MGS2 even as a kid when it was originally released. I may have been two young to understand the even larger themes present but I enjoyed it all. MGS2 despite the crazy twists and turns told a sensible story complete with character arcs and themes. MGSV does not. Raiden had an entire arc that ended at the very end of the game when he discards the player's dog tags. Venom has nothing. The major plot of MGS2 was resolved at the end of the game with the end building towards a sequel. MGSV does not resolve its own plot and leaves major plots which are set up early on completely unresolved.

Comparing MGS2 to MGSV only reveals MGSV to be a very weak game.

 

[AAMARMO]

Interesting

 

[LiK]

Just to clarify, I don't count MGS3 as the prequel mode I was referring to. MGS3 stood on its own and is my fave game in the franchise. I meant everything else where they kept focusing on BB's story and it felt like he was reaching and trying to connect the games as hard as he could.

 

[Reebot]

You're right. For this to happen Kojima should be a good writer and director, something he was no more since MGS3 and that's 10 years ago. Seriously, it was very easy, everything was in place already.

Uh? MGS3 is a masterpiece and its conclusion was damn good, nothing was retcon if you exclude BB's eye. PO has shitty gameplay but story wise is good for BB development as a leader, just not enough. With PW and MGS4 serious shit started to happen and it only got worse each game.

Look we don't take kindly to proper facts around here.

 

[foxtrot3d]

You're right. For this to happen Kojima should be a good writer and director, something he was no more since MGS3 and that's 10 years ago. Seriously, it was very easy, everything was in place already.



Uh? MGS3 is a masterpiece and its conclusion was damn good, nothing was retcon if you exclude BB's eye. PO has shitty gameplay but story wise is good for BB development as a leader, just not enough. With PW and MGS4 serious shit started to happen and it only got worse each game.

Listen, I'll battle anyone that thinks that PW had a "shit" story. Let's go.

 

[lifa-cobex]

Just ignore him. Dude likes to toss insults at anyone who questions his logic. I didn't even ask him a question, lol



The closest to light-hearted Kaz was the hamburgers discussion. Wish we had more of those moments.

As strange as it sounds. I felt like the base on Peace walker was more interesting and personal as you heard more about what the troops were doing on Paz's tapes.
(The bit where BB and Kaz are fighting in the shower because he was cheating or something)
You got to know about more about the day to day life of the troops and the way Kaz was.

When that base got destroyed in Ground zeros, i was generally more gutted than when the virus hits the base and you have to execute your solders.

I think Kojima wanted you to care about this base, but I think he fucked up as little to no light hearted moments were really shown other than the odd conversation between troops.
Wanted to play football on my base

 

[Kazuhira]

I just saw the famous mission 51 with the Eli plot conclusion.. I'm so sad it couldn't be finished, since that would have been a very satisfying conclusion to his branch

The part with mantis and eli flying away like dragon ball z was so funny.
Most likely that was the end of eli's story,i doubt that a 2nd fight against the st-84 was the original idea for the final boss.

 

[BadWolf]

Um, yeah I was. I enjoyed MGS2 even as a kid when it was originally released. I may have been two young to understand the even larger themes present but I enjoyed it all. MGS2 despite the crazy twists and turns told a sensible story complete with character arcs and themes. MGSV does not. Raiden had an entire arc that ended at the very end of the game when he discards the player's dog tags. Venom has nothing. The major plot of MGS2 was resolved at the end of the game with the end building towards a sequel. MGSV does not resolve its own plot and leaves major plots which are set up early on completely unresolved.

Comparing MGS2 to MGSV only reveals MGSV to be a very weak game.

This post of your's is exactly my point, you were perfectly okay with MGS2 because it jived with you.

The same can't be said about the countless people that complained about it and nitpicked at countless things, which resulted in MGS3 being a more 'safe' and down to earth game.

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

yeah but did they really hypnotize Venom into wanting butterflies and shit?

Also something i just remembered: im pretty sure one of the times you are around the Boss's mammal pod AI she notices that you aren't jack. I forget what she says but she sounds a bit confused about who you are for a moment

 

[KOMANI]

Just to clarify, I don't count MGS3 as the prequel mode I was referring to. MGS3 stood on its own and is my fave game in the franchise. I meant everything else where they kept focusing on BB's story and it felt like he was reaching and trying to connect the games as hard as he could.

Seems like he wasn't trying to connect to Big Boss's story at all in the last one. That tale didn't end up so great.

 

[Pitch Black Flint]

It gives a type of origin to FOXDIE (but yes, Naomi is the actual creator) as in Zero's tapes (the Skull Face one) after SF asks about the Vocal Cord parasite, Zero mentions that it was an interesting experiment essentially, but now they're getting it down to narrowing targets to specific individuals (as opposed to whole groups).

Oh, okay. Yeah, that's just foreshadowing. No big deal. As long as he doesn't say Foxdie or imply what it was eventually used for, I can wrap my head around that.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

yeah but did they really hypnotize Venom into wanting butterflies and shit?

Also something i just remembered: im pretty sure one of the times you are around the Boss's mammal pod AI she notices that you aren't jack. I forget what she says but she sounds a bit confused about who you are for a moment

She says "Jack, is that you? It's not you...is it?"

 

[LiK]

This post of your's is exactly my point, you were perfectly okay with MGS2 because it jived with you.

The same can't be said about the countless people that complained about it and nitpicked at countless things about it, which resulted in MGS3 being a more 'safe' and down to earth game.

Hell yea, MGS3 is the best! You know this to be true.

 

[Toa TAK]

Interesting

But what about the butterflies in Peace Walker???????????

 

[BadWolf]

Hell yea, MGS3 is the best! You know this to be true.

MGS3 is amazing but I wanted more of the MGS2 craziness

 

[MMarston]

Interesting

Yeah, I've kinda liked the butterfly symbolism going in the BB games and this somewhat makes sense.

Last part of that pic gave me a chuckle though

 

[Luigi87]

Interesting

That... is interesting.

Also the "But he can't catch shit because his depth perception is fucked" killed me.

 

[foxtrot3d]

This post of your's is exactly my point, you were perfectly okay with MGS2 because it jived with you.

The same can't be said about the countless people that complained about it and nitpicked at countless things, which resulted in MGS3 being a more 'safe' and down to earth game.

I would not say it's the same thing. The problems people had with MGS2 were pesonal feelings towards the certain twists in the game such as not playing as Solid Snake. Thus, they amounted to subjective feelings towards the story the game told. MGSV on the other hand had objective problems with its story telling that goes beyond "I don't like not playing as Big Boss." The story fundamentally makes no sense and has virtually no real themes. It's an exercise in futility if anything. A game in which all of the events that happen in the game are pointless and can be entirely removed from the canon of MGS and have virtually nothing change.

 

[Neiteio]

I'm between interviews at the moment (I'm a journalist by trade), and I just want to say that it's amazing this thread moved two 100-post pages in the relatively short time I did the last interview.

I also want to say that no matter how much I disagree with some people (I love the story and the twist, but clearly not everyone shares that opinion), I still love reading all of your different viewpoints and feel richer for reading them.

Circle-jerks can be fun, but the divisive reception of this game has made for some of the best discussion I've seen on GAF.

 

[Golnei]

I think Kojima wanted you to care about this base, but I think he fucked up as little to no light hearted moments were really shown other than the odd conversation between troops.
Wanted to play football on my base

More signs of life around the base would have helped so much - it's ridiculous that Diamond Dogs had less character than the MSF given the massive difference in scope between games. There was so much potential - the football you mentioned, an arcade with Konami machines from the early 80s, soldiers on break smoking and listening to music, unique/named characters actually existing on the base and interacting with you, training drills in the vein of the MGS1-2 VR missions...

There was so much potential, but obviously it couldn't have realistically been carried out.

 

[Reebot]

She says "Jack, is that you? It's not you...is it?"

Yeah its the first time you see the mammal pod.

 

[BadWolf]

I would not say it's the same thing. The problems people had with MGS2 were pesonal feelings towards the certain twists in the game such as not playing as Solid Snake. Thus, they amounted to subjective feelings towards the story the game told. MGSV on the other hand had objective problems with its story telling that goes beyond "I don't like not playing as Big Boss." The story fundamentally makes no sense and has virtually no real themes. It's an exercise in futility if anything. A game in which all of the events that happen in the game are pointless and can be entirely removed from the canon of MGS and have virtually nothing change.

It's the exact same thing and you are doing it again. Dismissing the hate for MGS2 as personal feelings while piling on MGSV again.

MGSV isn't your cup of tea and that's fine

 

[Clear]

I was wondering why they said that.. they I saw everything by the bolded parts, there is no discussion when you throw offensive statements to build your points, think about it

Not to mention that I have -at no point- attacked him.

I merely pointed out that he'd put hundreds if hours into a game he claimed has no replay value.

 

[Reebot]

More signs of life around the base would have helped so much - it's ridiculous that Diamond Dogs had less character than the MSF given the massive difference in scope between games. There was so much potential - the football you mentioned, an arcade with Konami machines from the early 80s, soldiers on break smoking and listening to music, unique/named characters actually existing on the base and interacting with you, training drills in the vein of the MGS1-2 VR missions...

There was so much potential, but obviously it couldn't have realistically been carried out.

The real sting is that most of what we say in the trailers and demos evidently wound up cut.

Mother Base as is serves no purpose, and largely exists to pad out the experience. Even minor changes, having characters and animals walk about, would give it a lot of life.

 

[KOMANI]

Not to mention that I have -at no point- attacked him.

I merely pointed out that he'd put hundreds if hours into a game he claimed has no replay value.

Yep. I clearly pointed out the difference between replaying a mission and replaying the game, but you were in your "to catch a predator" mood and tried to debunk my opinion

 

[Reebot]

It's the exact same thing and you are doing it again. Dismissing the hate for MGS2 as personal feelings while piling on MGSV again.

MGSV isn't your cup of tea and that's fine

Dude are you being intentionally dense?

He's making a claim on the success of the storytelling. Like, its right there in his post. Its not just about liking/disliking the protagonist swap.

 

[Metroidvania]

More signs of life around the base would have helped so much - it's ridiculous that Diamond Dogs had less character than the MSF given the massive difference in scope between games. There was so much potential - the football you mentioned, an arcade with Konami machines from the early 80s, soldiers on break smoking and listening to music, unique/named characters actually existing on the base and interacting with you, training drills in the vein of the MGS1-2 VR missions...

There was so much potential, but obviously it couldn't have realistically been carried out.

That was the major thing that blew me away; that aside from the cutscene with Ocelot, there's zero actual 'involved' training of your troops, especially the combat platform. Or getting more intel leading to increasing the Support team, etc...

Would have made a world of difference in getting more involved with the base-building aspect if there had been aspects to actually getting involved in the various platforms.

Or hell, even being able to manually increase the rate at which materials are processed by spending time on base and increasing soldier productivity.

 

[wiibomb]

The part with mantis and eli flying away like dragon ball z was so funny.
Most likely that was the end of eli's story,i doubt that a 2nd fight against the st-84 was the original idea for the final boss.

60% unfinished, so yeah it looked quite funny, it was still pretty rough, but I saw the whole idea and I loved it...

This post of your's is exactly my point, you were perfectly okay with MGS2 because it jived with you.

The same can't be said about the countless people that complained about it and nitpicked at countless things, which resulted in MGS3 being a more 'safe' and down to earth game.

that is why I came to appreciate Kojima makes this kind of candid games, MGS2 had this backslash back then, but MGS3 just became a good game that no one talks about or even discusses any more since it is the typical safe approach.

thinking about it, MGSV is an excellent game for discussing since there are a good amount of plots it touches

 

[Neiteio]

While I like the twist and how it works in the game, I still don't understand one detail about it:

When you replay the prologue in M46, Venom is clearly presented with the fact he's a fake. The doctor dies and he escapes right after the doctor tells him this. Are we supposed to see this as them testing the brainwashing, i.e. the prologue we experienced at the start of the game was the way Venom remembered the incident, but M46 is the actual way it played out?

It doesn't really change the twist, but it's something in the sequence of events that is unclear to me.

Also, replaying it last night, 48 hours is all it took for the plastic surgery. Well, for the face, at least.

 

[KOMANI]

That was the major thing that blew me away; that aside from the cutscene with Ocelot, there's zero actual 'involved' training of your troops, especially the combat platform. Or getting more intel leading to increasing the Support team, etc...

Would have made a world of difference in getting more involved with the base-building aspect if there had been aspects to actually getting involved in the various platforms.

Or hell, even being able to manually increase the rate at which materials are processed by spending time on base and increasing soldier productivity.

The target practice is designed to get you accustomed to Mother Base, but it feels like a missed opportunity to help you train your troops. In the end, there's no reason to build 4 platforms, or get S rank soldiers.

 

[wiibomb]

While I like the twist and how it works in the game, I still don't understand one detail about it:

When you replay the prologue in M46, Venom is clearly presented with the fact he's a fake. The doctor dies and he escapes right after the doctor tells him this. Are we supposed to see this as them testing the brainwashing, i.e. the prologue we experienced at the start of the game was the way Venom remembered the incident, but M46 is the actual way it played out?

It doesn't really change the twist, but it's something in the sequence of events that is unclear to me.

Also, replaying it last night, 48 hours is all it took for the plastic surgery. Well, for the face, at least.

that is how I understood it, specially when the title said TRUTH to begin with

48 hours? I thought it lasted about a week since they started when he woke up, no?

 

[Neiteio]

that is how I understood it, specially when the title said TRUTH to begin with

48 hours? I thought it lasted about a week since they started when he woke up, no?

I should be sure of this since I just replayed it, but I'm pretty sure there's a "48 hours later" between "This will be your new face," and then the doctor showing you Snake's face in the mirror.

 

[wiibomb]

I should be sure of this since I just replayed it, but I'm pretty sure there's a "48 hours later" between "This will be your new face," and then the doctor showing you Snake's face in the mirror.

a pretty quick doctor he is, huh? I wonder how much would a real life one last (not to whine)

 

[Pitch Black Flint]

The part with mantis and eli flying away like dragon ball z was so funny.
Most likely that was the end of eli's story,i doubt that a 2nd fight against the st-84 was the original idea for the final boss.

60% unfinished, so yeah it looked quite funny, it was still pretty rough, but I saw the whole idea and I loved it....

See, I'm of the opposite opinion. It think the way the story of episode 51 tries so hard to wrap up Eli's plot is unnecessary, but I think the whole Venom and Diamond Dog army taking on the Sahelanthropus across a whole island would've made a great final battle. I don't mind that Eli got away before his story was resolved because his story wasn't that interesting to begin with. The only scene I want to see with Eli is the one where he meets Eva. Just to bring it full circle. "Brother!" "Father!" "Mother!" All Liquid ever wanted was to live a normal life with a happy family.

 

[Reebot]

I should be sure of this since I just replayed it, but I'm pretty sure there's a "48 hours later" between "This will be your new face," and then the doctor showing you Snake's face in the mirror.

The facial reconstruction surgery happened years ago according to the tapes.

The events in the opening, including the truth version, are probably heavily distorted by Venom's hallucinations, confusion, or whatever.

This isn't me trying to beat up on the game, but the plot simply doesn't make sense on a basic chronological level unless we accept some degree of incorrectness in the opening. Chalk it up to character hallucination.

 

[BadWolf]

Dude are you being intentionally dense?

He's making a claim on the success of the storytelling. Like, its right there in his post. Its not just about liking/disliking the protagonist swap.

The hate for MGS2 went well beyond the protagonist swap. People complained left and right about its story and characters.

that is why I came to appreciate Kojima makes this kind of candid games, MGS2 had this backslash back then, but MGS3 just became a good game that no one talks about or even discusses any more since it is the typical safe approach.

thinking about it, MGSV is an excellent game for discussing since there are a good amount of plots it touches

Spot on.

 

[Neiteio]

The facial reconstruction surgery happened years ago according to the tapes.

The events in the opening, including the truth version, are probably heavily distorted by Venom's hallucinations, confusion, or whatever.

This isn't me trying to beat up on the game, but the plot simply doesn't make sense on a basic chronological level unless we accept some degree of incorrectness in the opening. Chalk it up to character hallucination.

Yeah, it probably is another hallucination or distortion of details in M46. Just closer to the reality than before.

 

[Roni]

The story fundamentally makes no sense and has virtually no real themes. It's an exercise in futility if anything.

Don't agree with the statement the story has no theme. It's in the freaking Chapter title for crying out loud.

Venom takes Big Boss' persona and quickly degenerates into a mindless mercenary who would take on any job (Side Ops) for money (GMP) in order to pursue Cipher (Missions). You, Kaz and Ocelot quickly turn on old partners and each other as paranoia sets in and you start wondering who enabled the strike on MSF 9 years ago. You don't even oppose to 'interrogating' defenseless people (Huey), your closest friends (Quiet) and even Children (Eli).

Your hasty actions aimed at getting revenge cause harm to others, sometimes as much harm as the people you're trying to kill. It is Diamong Dogs that let the Vocal Cord Parasites loose onto Africa after Cipher isolates them by contaminating the river. And no matter how much good you try to do (caring for the children you take from the battlefield) your actions speak louder than your intentions and it becomes easy for your image to be warped and bent into people believing you yourself is the villain (Eli fooling the kids into rebelling by staging the death of one of them). Your quest for revenge even brought you to accept a sociopath into your mix, just because he could fix you up with a few new toys.

And when you do get revenge on your target, what then? You've hurt and violated so many other people in your path that what other fate is left for you other than becoming the target for someone else's revenge? And could you have really eliminated the 'enemy'? What if it still lurks around, a shadow of its former self just waiting to re-emerge at the smallest opportunity... The paranoia leads you to cannibalize your own men and their trust. Turning your private army into a fascist state complete with sign posts of "Big Boss is Watching You".

A game in which all of the events that happen in the game are pointless and can be entirely removed from the canon of MGS and have virtually nothing change.

Another fair point and the main reason this story is so interesting. It could be removed from the game, but then a considerable about of meanings would be left inverted, warped and incorrect. The fact this game didn't need to exist and yet can completely change how you interpret the latter half of the timeline is genius.

 

[Devilgunman]

I think the most surprising twist in this game is that Huey is actually an asshole. I think he told the truth about event in GZ but he just never wants to be a part of Diamond Dog and/or has learnt the truth that Venom is not the Boss he was so loyal to years ago.

 

[KOMANI]

I think the most surprising twist in this game is that Huey is actually an asshole. I think he told the truth about event in GZ but he just never wants to be a part of Diamond Dog and/or has learnt the truth that Venom is not the Boss he was so loyal to years ago.

Was it that big of a shock? He's kinda abrasive towards Hot Coldman... Right before he gets chucked down a flight of stairs.

 

[Trickshot]

Huey deserved everything that happened to him. What a horrible person.

 

[LiK]

Huey deserved everything that happened to him. What a horrible person.

he sucks.

 

[Ōkami]

Keep in mind that Venom or the medic whatever, didn't enter a coma in the helicopter crash after GZ, he was conscious, along with Miller when Big Boss enters the coma.

It rather seems as he was purposedly entered into a coma state, maybe the brainwashing or whatever happened before that.