The point is you get to see Venom do some soul-searching, developing him as a character. He's suffering from PTSD and guilt over Paz's death, and he's trying to find inner peace. The fifth and final Paz tape is him coming to terms with the past and learning a lesson about mercy and compassion going forward. It's Venom listening to his heart, and it's beautiful.
SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
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Alex_Mexico
Member
First time in hearing this too. All I know is that the best female character in all the franchise was made under Fukushima's supervision (The Boss). Under solely Kojima's watch we've had the boring B&B corp, needlessly half naked Quiet, and a 25 year old Pacifica Ocean (really?) posing as an underage innocent schoolgirl that you get to see, take pictures, and quasi-molest in her underwear (even before knowing she was of legal age).
Maybe Fukushima was the break Kojima needed sometimes to not go completely insane? Who knows.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Well you certainly saw something I didn't. I was confused over the shrapnel supposedly still being human teeth and bones when I thought Paz didn't die (then what was the debris made of then?). Now I understand he actually has Paz remains in his body and forehead.
So he imagined the cutscenes where Ocelot and Miller intervened with him and Paz I guess?
Berserker976
Member
Man, I couldn't disagree more with this. I felt like the Paz side quest was an awful, pointless mess. Venom is blank slate avatar for the player, he's not his own character. Why should I give a shit what medic Venom cares about?
The thing that made the Paz tapes so interesting to me was that it introduced the idea that maybe we couldn't trust our memories, maybe we couldn't even 100% trust what we were seeing now. And once we broke Paz out of her stupor, what information could she provide? Maybe she could even recontextualize GZ. It implied a bunch of interesting new plot and character development.
And then it turns out it was all in your head. What bullshit.
I'm fine with it being a character development moment where we see how the Paz incident got to Venom and he makes peace with it and moves on while also considering the folly of revenge (i.e. the lines about "You can kill Skull Face, Huey, Zero, and it won't bring me back," etc).
Not everything has to about fleshing out technical details, IMO.
Yeah, he imagined Paz, Ocelot, Kaz, the room, the butterflies, the bomb, etc. Also, the alternate version of what happened at GZ was a hallucination.
I vehemently disagree with you Neiteio. The intent might be beautiful, but the execution is about as well performed as a man laborously telling you that he's changed in dialogue box narration, except with Paz's voice instead. (Not the delivery, Tara Strong is excellent; I mean the entire concept of the side missions)
re: venom, the main thing I feel is that they couldn't decide if he was a character or a player avatar and made it so he doesn't work on either level. As a character he's a really well emoting character model that mainly visibly reacts to situation, but doesn't have enough self-agency to make any decisions the character makes really believable or desirable. As an avatar, he has too much self-agency to reflect the idea that the player's choices make him who he is. Consequentially, the whole thing makes me feel like i wasted my fucking time
i think it's a good example of the twist going right up its own arse and ruining things. Raiden was a player avatar, but he was also Raiden, a character. Venom is supposed to be a blank slate but because Kojima needed to preserve the twist that he was BB, he needs to have moments of characterisation, all of which is undone by the attempted metaphor of him being the player, except that doesn't work either because he obviously has self-agency even if subdued.
i think it's a good example of the twist going right up its own arse and ruining things. Raiden was a player avatar, but he was also Raiden, a character. Venom is supposed to be a blank slate but because Kojima needed to preserve the twist that he was BB, he needs to have moments of characterisation, all of which is undone by the attempted metaphor of him being the player, except that doesn't work either because he obviously has self-agency even if subdued.
I mean, the message is there, plain to see. It's very eloquently done in the fifth Paz tape that ties everything together. The cutscenes and in-game cutscenes show the guilt he feels, while the tape is him coming to terms with that.
I can understand not caring about tying it to the Wandering Soldier side ops, though. I never said I cared about using those side ops as the framing device.
I don't think it's eloquently done at all. It's Paz literally telling you what your own character development is. That's about as sloppy as you could make it without having Keifer tell you it himself.
So what, an artist always gets his way?
Also, way to cherry pick. You forgot to mention the literally hundreds of film disasters caused by overblown budgets and auteurs run amok. But I guess that'd be inconvenient to bring up.
Kojima lived long enough to see himself become the villain, so now the people will look for anyone to replace him as the true mastermind behind the series.
After so many years of retconning events, Kojima is being retconned himself by his own fans. So meta.
Berserker976
Member
But this is the only meaningful character development Venom gets in the entire game. Why bother with it? It doesn't really inform me about his personality, because I don't... I can't see him as his own character. And that has to be intentional, you're not supposed to see him as his own man. At a narrative level he's a brainwashed, nameless goon designed to draw the heat off Big Boss, and at a meta-narrative level he's supposed to represent the player himself. There's no point to changing an interesting plot related twist into a meaningless character driven twist for a character who might as well not exist.
Yeah, watch my analysis video:
MGSV: A Phantom Plot (A Critique of MGSV's Story)
: )
Oh and SupperBunnyHop's one:
Metal Gear Solid V: Dissociative Disorder (Story analysis + Review)
We discussed this earlier. My take is he's his own man but he thinks he's Big Boss. From a meta narrative standpoint he represents the player and there's more room for the player to define some qualities about him in their minds, but he does have some fixed qualities.
For example, look at Ahab next to Ishmael and you see a passive, introverted, Type B personality and an aggressive, extroverted, Type A personality, respectively. We see Venom being benevolent and merciful when others are calling for blood (Quiet's, Huey's, etc). That's the Medic's gentle soul. But then there's the issue of him thinking he's Big Boss, which is why he rolls with what others tell him on most issues, acquiescing to their anger. It's how Kaz and Ocelot assert themselves over him while the real BB has Ocelot lighting his cigar like a well-trained servant.
I feel the two roles (player avatar and canon character) compartmentalize just fine, in part because he's a more moody and introspective sort.
WrenchNinja
Member
It's been a thing since after PW at least with images like this.
This is great. Someone needs to do ground zeroes + phantom pain.
These are also great.
PedroPanache
Member
I've been playing MGS3, and this is really weird, I just got a sudden chill through my spine, it was as if someone has been watching me from the shadows. I don't know, I can't quite explain it. You know what, forget it, it's probably nothing.
What's even stranger, the Tsuchinoko snake which I lost when captured by Volgin has just magically appeared in this area. What a stroke of luck!
What's even stranger, the Tsuchinoko snake which I lost when captured by Volgin has just magically appeared in this area. What a stroke of luck!
Unknown One
Member
That's because a lot of MGS fans complained about it. It's very highly apparent that Kojima takes fan criticisms very critically. MGS2 complaints had an effect on future MGS. MGS1 did not really explain any of the supernatural abilities and that carried onto MGS2. Due to the fan complaints about MGS2, MGS4 had to explain the abilities of Vamp and Liquid Snake. The Liquid Snake possession got brushed off by having Ocelot replace the arm. Vamp had almost everything explain about his abilities at the expense of what was implied in MGS2.
The MGS2 complaint that carried onto MGS3 was the long winded background stories of the bosses. MGS3 omitted most of the bosses backstories. Their powers were left supernatural until this game.
I wish Kojima took the criticism less serious because I enjoyed the super natural abilities being supernatural and the long detailed cutscenes about the bosses. I felt that it gave them character. They were more than just obstacles. They had motives for fighting and that improves the narrative. The people who criticise the cutscenes and codecs could just skip the cutscenes. Damn it Kojima.
I don't know what to tell you if you don't recognize his noble actions throughout the game as speaking to his character, i.e. a gentler soul. Whether it's how he handles Huey or Quiet, child soldiers, keeping his men as diamonds or whatever, he behaves in ways markedly different than expected of him (often frustrating the hell out of Kaz in the process). He felt like a character to me because of his reserved nature; he doesn't need to give frequent monologues for me to know he has feelings, and that he is conflicted but compassionate. The Paz tape, once you know it is a hallucination, is just an interesting way to see how he was emotionally shellshocked and how he worked through that by thinking about what she meant to him.
I thought it was great. I also like this schism between personality (the gentle Medic soul) and identity (the broad strokes of BB he was given). But I can see we won't see eye to eye on this, and that's fine. *shrugs*
Berserker976
Member
Ah yes, such a gentle soul for being fully willing to incorporate child soldiers into his army before Kaz stepped in and stopped him. Or that moment of gentleness when he and Kaz blew the limbs off an unarmed man and left him to die slowly. Or how he gently let Kaz and Ocelot torture Quiet even after establishing a "genuine bond" with her.
I know I've said this before but you really might want to consider how much of Venom's character exists only in your head, and how much is reasonably implied by the game.
You're seriously asking why it it's so hard to believe that they were capable of developing an AI in the 70s? Really?
It will all be explained in Chapter 3.
I'm not all or nothing with him. He's not perfect. I'm looking at where he's coming from and what that tell us.
He saved the kids but tried to give them the only life he knew, and thankfully he was corrected. He spared Quiet's life multiple times but still allowed torture to occur for a "greater good" (note I don't agree with torture, I'm just explaining the shades of grey here). And about shooting the limbs... Well, the way I played it, I hesitated to shoot. Kaz then grabbed Venom's arm and he fired the gun. The game shows he didn't exactly feel fulfilled by it afterwards, either, seeing Skull Face on MB, etc. He acquiesced to the anger of others and that was the payoff. Like he later realizes, revenge doesn't bring him peace because it doesn't bring anyone back. The whole passage about "you can kill Skull Face, kill Huey, kill Zero, burn down the whole world and it won't bring back the dead."
I hope you see I'm basing these interpretations on stuff in the game. It's interpretative, but it's not in a vacuum by any means.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Fukushima works for Sony, lol.
PedroPanache
Member
MGS3 shows an unusual amount of restraint, compared to the rest of the Big Boss series, when it comes to existing technology. I imagine if Kojima tried to make that game today, excess would get the better of him, and we'd have anachronistic tech, like the iDroid, all over the place. MGS3 comes across as driven and single minded in what it sets out to achieve, MGSV has just too many ideas scattered across the battlefield with no plan to pull them all together.
Stereogatari
Banned
Lol it's funny to think back on the "Coming up in Chapter 2" and thinking there was still tons of story ahead and the possibility of a Chapter 3 and 4.
Berserker976
Member
I still say you're stretching things quite a bit, but I'm willing to accept your interpretation.
Also, I just thought of something. I think Big Boss might have been totally within his rights to force Venom to take his place. I mean, he lost Paz, Chico, and almost an entire decade of his life because his absolute fuck-up of a medic failed to do a basic cavity search.
Maybe the game's theme of revenge actually refers to Big Boss taking his anger out on Venom for failing so spectacularly at doing his damn job.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Holy shit Eli is a prick.
First he makes that pipe 'Crush' Ralph.
Then he throws Shabanis necklace into the chlorine filled tank.
I wanna punch him in the dick. I dunno who's worse, Huey or Eli.
First he makes that pipe 'Crush' Ralph.
Then he throws Shabanis necklace into the chlorine filled tank.
I wanna punch him in the dick. I dunno who's worse, Huey or Eli.
I already knew there were only two chapters, but I think that since Ch. 1 had full game credits, I probably would've suspected Ch. 2 was more like an epilogue.
I feel similar to you. I definetely got the feeling Venom Snake and Big Boss were very different persons. And I did get the impression that Venom wasn't nearly as invested on getting revenge as everyone else in Mother Base was.
It could've been handled better though.
I don't doubt you, but I've come to very different conclusions about the effectiveness of the game. I'm wondering where my disconnect comes in. I think the main thing is that there's zero work put into pre-establishing the character (because obviously he's a surprise twist at the end wah-hey) so I don't buy any of his actual actions as character. There's no hints of two warring personalities inside this guy, there's no ideas about 'oh yes this is the medic character and the boss imprint clashing, here's where X shows through, here's where Y". It's just a series of actions a guy takes for reasons that are inscrutable.
Moreover, his character doesn't mean anything. It doesn't pay-off, mainly because last second reveal so there's no room in the actual story to do anything, and that it doesn't really make anything in the main story make any more sense or reveal more meaning or anything. It's like, Venom's just this guy, you know?
You can get more interesting stuff by theorycrafting about MG1 and 2 or whatever but it doesn't lead anywhere except epileptic trees and fanon.
Eli is just sort of annoying, Huey is just disgusting. Skull Face looks like the nicest guy next to him.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Eli trying to kill children is pretty fucked up, more so than annoying. Huey is disgusting, but atleast he does it for science.
StopMakingSense
Member
I can understand where you're coming from, but I don't think there's anything wrong with us feeling (or not feeling) for this character in the same way.
I felt for Venom in part because he seems like a gentler and more introspective sort (based on the in-game reasons I described) who is taken advantage of by the person he trusts most. They steal his identity and give him this great burden, putting him in harm's way. He drifts through his new life in his new role, following the suggestion of others who have stronger wills ("You're BB, this is how you should feel"), but we see the whole process didn't rewrite his actual personality because it's plain as day Ahab's attitude is not Ishmael's, and what they'd expect BB to do is not always what Venom does. Completely different temperaments.
So the end result, in terms of why I found it appealing, is Venom feels... innocent, in the sense that he's a victim of circumstance. Like, it's hard to think Venom would turn one of his own followers into a body double. They took advantage of someone because he was trusting and not assertive, essentially. He comes off a bit haunted and I feel sad for him. :-(
Stereogatari
Banned
But they were only Chapter 1's credits, like the episodes
PedroPanache
Member
I wonder when Kojima and his team focused in on what exactly they were trying to do with this game. I sense it spent a good chunk of its development trying to zero in on its core themes and message. The gameplay clearly was king, but the story just did not come together at all; it's a shame because the Venom Snake reveal could have been a great twist, but the story doesn't support it and it gets thrown into your lap at the very last moment. A good twist should illuminate your story in new ways when revealed. The reward is to go back into the story and see the once hidden threads dangling right in front of your face. MGSV's twist doesn't do any of that.
It's a wonderful game, but it just hasn't been quite moulded and buffed into the polished gem that it could have been. Kojima needed more time and Konami needed a product to show for all their investment, so we ended up with this; a game bursting with brilliant but clearly unfinished ideas.
While I'm obviously a big fan of Venom/Medic, the more I think about it, the more it bothers me the Medic wasn't competent enough to notice a second bomb, lol
That's true. A lot longer, though! (And with 100x more "whoa, oooooooooh!" But that's neither here nor there)But they were only Chapter 1's credits, like the episodes
What a strange feeling, I loved this game so much during my playthrough and couldn't wait to finish the story to replay all the missions for the S rank and all the tasks.
But now that I know that I am just a random medic, that delibaretly knows that he is not Big Boss... I just can't launch the game anymore.
It's weird because the gameplay is perfect but I always attached a lot of importance to the character, the Snake, I was playing.
I would have loved the story to end with Outer Heaven, and Big Boss really turning 'bad'. Where is Solid ?
But now that I know that I am just a random medic, that delibaretly knows that he is not Big Boss... I just can't launch the game anymore.
It's weird because the gameplay is perfect but I always attached a lot of importance to the character, the Snake, I was playing.
I would have loved the story to end with Outer Heaven, and Big Boss really turning 'bad'. Where is Solid ?
Sevket-Erhat
Member
I never got over not having David Hayter and I am not sure I like this game anymore. I will rank this above MGS 2 which is at the bottom of my MGS games list
The best ending they could've given us (while having the same story) would be a recreation of the final fight in MG1. I don't know whether it would be more appropriate to play as Venom (and lose) or as Solid (and win). But it would've been a great way to see Solid, and if they had him voiced by David Hayter, it would've been an amazing sendoff.
During 45, I waited for the reveal and the real Big Boss speaking with Hayter's voice (even if it wouldn't make sense with Ground Zeroes) but nope, the two have the same voice. I think it could have save some things for me.
This too.
I guess I don't have much of a problem with Eli because he is pretty much what I'd expect a young Liquid to be like: brash, cocky, quick-tempered, sociopathic.
Huey on the other hand went from this somewhat likeable scientist guy to "I'm glad Otakon fucked your wife".
Stereogatari
Banned
Same here but I eventually got over it and accepted it (and even changed my avatar to the one I created, only time I've liked a customised character in a game).
It was definitely Kojima's intention to give us these kinds of emotions.
Also I remembered how fucking tight the gameplay is. Don't need to be Big Boss to enjoy that!
Yes they fucked up there, but I suppose it would have been awkward and costly to have Hayter in just for that part.
You know what would have been insane. If there was a Chapter 3 post-Truth where Diamond Dogs goes after the real Big Boss.
Vampirolol
Member
The whole Paz story is character development for the player, she talks to us in the final tape. I liked it.
I can totally understand this. Huey, while a great character in TPP, is such a sharp departure from his depiction in PW. He was, in many ways, practically reinvented.
I'm OK with Eli. If anything, his depiction here seems to suggest Liquid never really grew up.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I actually liked what they did to his character. It makes him very different from his son and puts MGS 2's events concerning Otacon at a more positive light. I liked Otacon before but always had this "dude, what the fuck" feeling regarding him being the reason for his father's suicide and all that. Now that I know Huey's true face, I can fully commit to liking Otacon without any second thoughts.
Besides, I like despisable villains.
I think Huey's depiction would've benefitted from a few extra beats helping to make sense of how he was one way in PW and another way in GZ/TPP. But I agree he was very effective in this game.Oh, don't get me wrong, I actually liked what they did to his character. It makes him very different from his son and puts MGS 2's events concerning Otacon at a more positive light. I liked Otacon before but always had this "dude, what the fuck" feeling regarding him being the reason for his father's suicide and all that. Now that I know Huey's true face, I can fully commit to liking Otacon without any second thoughts.
Besides, I like despisable villains.
When I was mercy-killing my men in M43, trying to avoid a worldwide pandemic, and he's chastising me over the radio, I wanted to punch him. I mean, for chrissakes, Huey, it's not like Venom -wants- to shoot them. Such shameless character assassination where Huey makes Venom look evil to keep the heat off himself. And this was before we later learn Huey caused the second outbreak by trying to re-weaponize the parasites for clients in America.
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