Support NeoGAF

[Dictator93]

Every console game ever gets supersampled screenshots for magazines and the like. Beyond had them as well. It obviously won't be rendered at this resolution, but the rest should be accurate (aka the trailer should give a good indication of final quality). Besides supersampling screenshots they never did anything else to their released material (no difference in DoF quality etc.)

That is the part where I think there is some funny business going on. In the beyond screenshot posted by our fellow gafer you can obviously see artifacting, shadow resolution problems, dof sample problems, model texture resolution problems, model polygon limits, etc.
...
But in those 8 K screenshots of detroit they released there is not even a hint of sub-resolution bokeh sampling problems, or shadow resolution problems, or really any thing like that. All the post processing and shadows seemed to be rendered out at sampling level and resolution level similar to that of the 8k screenshot.

I mean look at this bokeh quality:
Macro

Micro

Look at the shadow resolution and anamorphic bokeh stretching on the eye here:

Then compare that to that resolution of the skin texture (which is rather low in comparison):

It seems like the asset quality will be the same in the real game, but all the post precssing and image quality could not possibly be like those high res images.

 

[Kolx]

I can't be the only one who expected a better graphics from QD right? not saying it's going to make the game worse or anything it's just after their tech demo at E3 2013 I expected something a bit more impressive.

 

[DieH@rd]

I can't be the only one who expected a better graphics from QD right? not saying it's going to make the game worse or anything it's just after their tech demo at E3 2013 I expected something a bit more impressive.

This is mighty impressive for me. There is no badly modeled charachter in the game. Every random NPC from the street has enough detail to be main charachter in any other game today. For example, look at this random guy:

Amazing detail for a NPC.


While sorcerer demo had much smaller focus [one cave/studio room], this trailer showcased open city that is FULL of people.

 

[BadAss2961]

I can't be the only one who expected a better graphics from QD right? not saying it's going to make the game worse or anything it's just after their tech demo at E3 2013 I expected something a bit more impressive.

Trailer looks like middling CG to me at times, which is very impressive.

Is the whole trailer in engine?

 

[DieH@rd]

Is the whole trailer in engine?

Yes. But since they said "captured in-engine" that means that some sections of the game were not running at full framerate. Behind the scenes video showcased scene that was running live with 26fps

As usual, framerate optimizations come last.

 

[Dictator93]

Yes. But since they said "captured in-engine" that means that some sections of the game were not running at full framerate. Behind the scenes video showcased scene that was running live with 26fps

As usual, framerate optimizations come last.

"captured in-engine" usually means "not rendered in real-tme"

 

[Lord Error]

But in those 8 K screenshots of detroit they released there is not even a hint of sub-resolution bokeh sampling problems, or shadow resolution problems, or really any thing like that. All the post processing and shadows seemed to be rendered out at sampling level and resolution level similar to that of the 8k screenshot.

I mean look at this bokeh quality:

Yeah, they did the same with Sorcerer screens. They clearly have some offline high-def renderer that enhances post process effects and shadows for screenshots. The Sorcerer trailer however had these effects scaled down to something more reasonable, but still very impressive. I suspect it's the same here. I can see some shader imperfections on the right side of her face on those high res screens btw, so they are still in-engine, just a precision-dialed-to-11 for post process setting in the engine.

 

[CREMSteve]

This is mighty impressive for me. There is no badly modeled charachter in the game. Every random NPC from the street has enough detail to be main charachter in any other game today. For example, look at this random guy:

Amazing detail for a NPC.


While sorcerer demo had much smaller focus [one cave/studio room], this trailer showcased open city that is FULL of people.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that particular NPC is actually a main character. He's a recognizable actor whose name I just can't place.

 

[tusken77]

2 super high res images have been released

Thanks! I've made the second one my PS3 background wallpaper. So good.

 

[SMOK3Y]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that particular NPC is actually a main character. He's a recognizable actor whose name I just can't place.

He reminds of that dude in KZ:SF

 

[DieH@rd]

He reminds of that dude in KZ:SF

That was David Harewood, he looks nothing like this NPC.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

This is mighty impressive for me. There is no badly modeled charachter in the game. Every random NPC from the street has enough detail to be main charachter in any other game today. For example, look at this random guy:

Amazing detail for a NPC.


While sorcerer demo had much smaller focus [one cave/studio room], this trailer showcased open city that is FULL of people.

He reminds me of an actor. Kinda wanna say the guy who plays Morgan on Walking Dead, just slightly older looking.

 

[Reflex]

He reminds me of an actor. Kinda wanna say the guy who plays Morgan on Walking Dead, just slightly older looking.

They usually make the models looks slightly different that the actors that play them. That photo makes me think Courtney B. Vance might be one of them.

 

[comshoplesce]

tusken77: you can do that for ps4 too? how

 

[Dictator93]

He reminds me of an actor. Kinda wanna say the guy who plays Morgan on Walking Dead, just slightly older looking.

Reminds me of this guy:

Yeah, they did the same with Sorcerer screens. They clearly have some offline high-def renderer that enhances post process effects and shadows for screenshots. The Sorcerer trailer however had these effects scaled down to something more reasonable, but still very impressive. I suspect it's the same here. I can see some shader imperfections on the right side of her face on those high res screens btw, so they are still in-engine, just a precision-dialed-to-11 for post process setting in the engine.

I definitely think the y are in-engine. Just not in game and rendered on a ps4. What do you mean by imperfections on the right side of her face btw?

 

[CREMSteve]

They usually make the models looks slightly different that the actors that play them. That photo makes me think Courtney B. Vance might be one of them.

That's him! Thanks

 

[dragonbane]

My lord. Games are starting to approach CG quality of visuals and nuances.

Especially since more and more people of the CG industry become interested in doing videogames. A former employee of Weta Digital works on Detroit for instance.

I'm hoping for a return to Heavy Rain levels of autonomy at least. Something like a Shenmue level of freedom would be amazing but I highly doubt it.

I very much doubt that as well, but we can expect more freedom than both HR and Beyond it seems. They even have weather simulation going on it looks like, that would be way too costly to implement into their engine to just use for a trailer:

I can't be the only one who expected a better graphics from QD right? not saying it's going to make the game worse or anything it's just after their tech demo at E3 2013 I expected something a bit more impressive.

This is mighty impressive if the scale is any indication of the final game. It comes rather close to the Sorcerer while extending the scale by a huge margin.

 

[dragonbane]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that particular NPC is actually a main character. He's a recognizable actor whose name I just can't place.

I doubt that. Its not like he is only random NPC with high detail:

"captured in-engine" usually means "not rendered in real-tme"

The screen he showed merely proves that the trailer can in fact be rendered on a real PS4 in real time, but it doesn't reach 30 FPS yet, since the game isn't optimized in any way. So they captured it in-engine to have a smooth trailer. The screen shows their debug menu btw, which they only use on real console, so its not a PC running it there.

Going about what you said earlier, can you please download the trailer in high quality here and inspect the DoF quality etc.?
http://www.gamersyde.com/download_detroit_pgw_trailer-36055_en.html

This should tell us whether their supersampling technique also increases DoF resolution or not. If it's the same as in the screenshots then it's likely the real deal. If not then we should not take the supersampled screenshots as an indication for anything image quality wise.
The game looks nice either way.

 

[Dictator93]

I doubt that. Its not like he is only random NPC with high detail:

The screen he showed merely proves that the trailer can in fact be rendered on a real PS4 in real time, but it doesn't reach 30 FPS yet, since the game isn't optimized in any way. So they captured it in-engine to have a smooth trailer. The screen shows their debug menu btw, which they only use on real console, so its not a PC running it there.

Going about what you said earlier, can you please download the trailer in high quality here and inspect the DoF quality etc.?
http://www.gamersyde.com/download_detroit_pgw_trailer-36055_en.html

This should tell us whether their supersampling technique also increases DoF resolution or not. If it's the same as in the screenshots then it's likely the real deal. If not then we should not take the supersampled screenshots as an indication for anything image quality wise.
The game looks nice either way.

Would love to, I did not even realise gamersyde had that.

 

[hesido]

That is the part where I think there is some funny business going on. In the beyond screenshot posted by our fellow gafer you can obviously see artifacting, shadow resolution problems, dof sample problems, model texture resolution problems, model polygon limits, etc.
...
But in those 8 K screenshots of detroit they released there is not even a hint of sub-resolution bokeh sampling problems, or shadow resolution problems, or really any thing like that. All the post processing and shadows seemed to be rendered out at sampling level and resolution level similar to that of the 8k screenshot.

I mean look at this bokeh quality:
Macro

Micro

Look at the shadow resolution and anamorphic bokeh stretching on the eye here:

Then compare that to that resolution of the skin texture (which is rather low in comparison):

It seems like the asset quality will be the same in the real game, but all the post precssing and image quality could not possibly be like those high res images.

Image quality in the released game obviously won't match a super-sampled still image.

Though the bokeh is monstrously big and would need a heck lot of taps to achieve it at acceptable quality at any res, final game may not sport such large DOF effects.

Btw, debug screen shows 26fps but we don't even know if that's a PS4. That said, QD is not known for downgrades.

 

[Jigolo]

I see some PC fans are thirsty

 

[Lucc]

Wow, how could I miss this? I really like the concept for Kara a few years back and hoped they'd make a game out of it. Now it's finally announced.

I just hope they'll get the gameplay right this time though. And no mess ups in the third act please.

What I'm saying is: please be good.

 

[dragonbane]

Btw, debug screen shows 26fps but we don't even know if that's a PS4. That said, QD is not known for downgrades.

That's PS4. Its the same debug menu that ships with the final game (you can activate it through a hack on Beyond on any retail PS3). A while ago I saw their actual editor they use to assemble the game and directly jumping ingame from there has all kinds of additional overlays. Plus it wouldnt quite make sense to use the QA debug menu during it, since its quite slow to navigate with a DS4, while you could just use a toggle on the visual editor and a mouse instead.

 

[Dictator93]

Going about what you said earlier, can you please download the trailer in high quality here and inspect the DoF quality etc.?
http://www.gamersyde.com/download_detroit_pgw_trailer-36055_en.html

This should tell us whether their supersampling technique also increases DoF resolution or not.

Depth of field looks noticably more stipled in the trailer from gameryde... although it is not necessarily high enough bit-rate to always see too well unfortunately. IQ is still rather ridiculously high though on high contrast edges... which makes me still doublt take tbh.

places where you can easily see how stipled it is in comparison to the super sampled shots above:

Difference between the super sampled image... and the trailer:
super sample

trailer

 

[dragonbane]

Depth of field looks noticably more stipled in the trailer from gameryde... although it is not necessarily high enough bit-rate to always see too well unfortunately. IQ is still rather ridiculously high though on high contrast edges... which makes me still doublt take tbh.

places where you can easily see how stipled it is in comparison to the super sampled shots above:


Difference between the super sampled image... and the trailer:
super sample

trailer

Thank you! Yeah, unfortunately it's still not as high quality of a video as I would like, but until playing the game we probably won't get better footage. Sad this isn't more of a priority in 2015.
Seeing your two pictures the colours are also completely messed up in the video :/

I guess this probably *confirms* that their screenshot tool also alters the quality of the post processing effects besides supersampling. I mostly viewed those shots anyway as a way to see exactly how high quality the assets are and nothing else. At least up to now the video footage gave you a perfect sense of what to expect.

For the time being I will trust QD to hit the fidelity of the trailer then. While the IQ certainly looks pretty crazy still, it also seems to be of very high priority for the studio since their last outing. In a generation where image quality was mostly ass, Beyond rendered at full 720p with vsync engaged at all times, acceptable texture filtering, mostly solid framerate and perhaps the best implementation of MLAA getting rid of almost all the nasty jaggies only leaving some areas untouched while introducing little noticeable blurring. Plus it already used PBR. It was quite the insane step up from Heavy Rain, which was an ok looking title at the time, but nothing particularly remarkable releasing so close after Uncharted 2.

So I wouldnt be surprised if they tried to continue the trend and release the game with the best IQ on PS4 yet. They mentioned shortly after The Dark Sorcerer that they would try to set a new bar for post processing work on console with their first PS4 title, so this might be the fruits of their efforts. Let's wait and see I guess, I'm already incredibly thankful they are not following RaD's footsteps and refrain from adding film grain to everything ruining their IQ work.

 

[Shin-Ra]

It's a big if, but if QD could combine high quality AA (Ryse, inFAMOUS, The Order 1886..), high quality motion blur and high quality, always-on 3D depth of field and never fully focus the scene, they could achieve a near-flawless (1080p) image quality.

 

[Mr. PlayStation]

Any info on what type of game this would be? Is Quantic Dream going away from their usual scripted cinematic QTE with limited roaming around gameplay to a more Naughty Dog way of active-interactive cinematic third person story telling?

 

[HowZatOZ]

I have a feeling they'll get away with using the same character assets due to the story premise of android workers. Not that its a bad thing, but it may help them push resources to other sections.

 

[benzy]

This is mighty impressive for me. There is no badly modeled charachter in the game. Every random NPC from the street has enough detail to be main charachter in any other game today. For example, look at this random guy:

Amazing detail for a NPC.


While sorcerer demo had much smaller focus [one cave/studio room], this trailer showcased open city that is FULL of people.

The white girl looks totally unrealistic though, lol. It's kind of jarring.

 

[dragonbane]

Any info on what type of game this would be? Is Quantic Dream going away from their usual scripted cinematic QTE with limited roaming around gameplay to a more Naughty Dog way of active-interactive cinematic third person story telling?

We have no idea, but expecting a Naughty Dog type of game would be a big stretch, so dont get your hopes up for that. We know it will feature stealth gameplay at least. Apart from that I'm sure it will still revolve around exploring and interacting with your current environment for the most part. Of course choices will play a part too. The most interesting aspect so far might be a considerable increase in free roaming area size. Their trailers usually feature scenarios and scenes in which you can play and everything they showed so far looks rather open. On top of that there is some heavy simulation work going on here that I heavily doubt was added to their engine just to have a nice trailer. This includes dynamic time of day, weather change with accurate cloud simulation, traffic and a rather giant management of AI controlled NPC actors. I'm assuming all of this will play a part during the actual game and be present in some way.

I have a feeling they'll get away with using the same character assets due to the story premise of android workers. Not that its a bad thing, but it may help them push resources to other sections.

Not that they are getting away with much, from the trailer I can count at least 60 entirely different looking NPCs.

The white girl looks totally unrealistic though, lol. It's kind of jarring.

She is a bit out of focus, but yeah, you probably can't win them all. Their black skin shader also just looks incredibly accurate.

 

[Darksol]

This makes me happy ^_^

 

[Mr. PlayStation]

We have no idea, but expecting a Naughty Dog type of game would be a big stretch, so dont get your hopes up for that. We know it will feature stealth gameplay at least. Apart from that I'm sure it will still revolve around exploring and interacting with your current environment for the most part. Of course choices will play a part too. The most interesting aspect so far might be a considerable increase in free roaming area size. Their trailers usually feature scenarios and scenes in which you can play and everything they showed so far looks rather open. On top of that there is some heavy simulation work going on here that I heavily doubt was added to their engine just to have a nice trailer. This includes dynamic time of day, weather change with accurate cloud simulation, traffic and a rather giant management of AI controlled NPC actors. I'm assuming all of this will play a part during the actual game and be present in some way.



Not that they are getting away with much, from the trailer I can count at least 60 entirely different looking NPCs.



She is a bit out of focus, but yeah, you probably can't win them all. Their black skin shader also just looks incredibly accurate.

Off-topic, any info on the release date for Heavy Rain/Beyond2Souls release on PS4?

 

[Loakum]

He reminds me of an actor. Kinda wanna say the guy who plays Morgan on Walking Dead, just slightly older looking.

That's not Lenny James.

 

[rockman zx]

The most interesting aspect so far might be a considerable increase in free roaming area size.

I wonder if they will change the design of the game to allow a central hub, a small portion of the city where you can interact with the city and access the different scenes or chapters of the game or they will stick with the formula they used in HR and Beyond, from scenario to scenario until the end of the game, granted one of this scenarios could be the city.

I was thinking about the beginning of the game and will be cool if the game start from minute 1 of the short film and they allow us to interact with the operator who is assembling Kara.

 

[Nightengale]

I think it'd be cool if Detroit could employ a hub-based, slightly-less linear storytelling, where Kara, as an android who could pretend to be human, interacts with different slices of mini-stories surrounding other androids/humans, culminating in a larger story near the end.

Eg. you start the game everyday at Kara's living place, you can explore different hubs where you interact with different human/android/mini-stories respective of each hub, peeling off different types of android-related stories (protest arc, android-for-sale arc, etc), and you progress the early parts of the story at your pace until a story culmination point, where you have to resolve your part in that mini-arc before moving onto a different one.

Basically the "our story" part of Detroit, where Kara influences different humans/androids differently on her Detroit-slice-of-life.

 

[squidyj]

We have no idea, but expecting a Naughty Dog type of game would be a big stretch, so dont get your hopes up for that. We know it will feature stealth gameplay at least. Apart from that I'm sure it will still revolve around exploring and interacting with your current environment for the most part. Of course choices will play a part too. The most interesting aspect so far might be a considerable increase in free roaming area size. Their trailers usually feature scenarios and scenes in which you can play and everything they showed so far looks rather open. On top of that there is some heavy simulation work going on here that I heavily doubt was added to their engine just to have a nice trailer. This includes dynamic time of day, weather change with accurate cloud simulation, traffic and a rather giant management of AI controlled NPC actors. I'm assuming all of this will play a part during the actual game and be present in some way.



Not that they are getting away with much, from the trailer I can count at least 60 entirely different looking NPCs.



She is a bit out of focus, but yeah, you probably can't win them all. Their black skin shader also just looks incredibly accurate.

with the girl I think it's
a. the hair, the hair in what we've seen is kind of sad so far
b. the harsh falloff in the shadowing of her check and neck. I would argue this is a problem of lighting and not modelling or the skin shader even.
Point light sources are used frequently in rendering because they are easily calculated but they don't really exist in nature, we have area lights that are harder to render but will give a softer falloff. Also any global illumination system that they're using is going to be far from perfect. likely some sort of baking solution with light probes or whatever, if she's poorly placed with respect to the probes the global illumination on her face might be unconvincing.


Crop out just the black dude and a bit of the background though and I'm sure most people would have a hard time telling you it's a render.

 

[hesido]

That's PS4. Its the same debug menu that ships with the final game (you can activate it through a hack on Beyond on any retail PS3). A while ago I saw their actual editor they use to assemble the game and directly jumping ingame from there has all kinds of additional overlays. Plus it wouldnt quite make sense to use the QA debug menu during it, since its quite slow to navigate with a DS4, while you could just use a toggle on the visual editor and a mouse instead.

Nice to know that's a PS4, [that scene] running 26fps at this stage of development gives me a lot of confidence about the final product.

 

[dragonbane]

Off-topic, any info on the release date for Heavy Rain/Beyond2Souls release on PS4?

Nothing confirmed. Saw a February date flying around somewhere. Gotta be soon now considering both were playable at PGW

I wonder if they will change the design of the game to allow a central hub, a small portion of the city where you can interact with the city and access the different scenes

I get a feeling this might be what they plan to do.

with the girl I think it's
a. the hair, the hair in what we've seen is kind of sad so far
b. the harsh falloff in the shadowing of her check and neck. I would argue this is a problem of lighting and not modelling or the skin shader even.
Point light sources are used frequently in rendering because they are easily calculated but they don't really exist in nature, we have area lights that are harder to render but will give a softer falloff. Also any global illumination system that they're using is going to be far from perfect. likely some sort of baking solution with light probes or whatever, if she's poorly placed with respect to the probes the global illumination on her face might be unconvincing.


Crop out just the black dude and a bit of the background though and I'm sure most people would have a hard time telling you it's a render.

Yep that makes some good sense!

 

[t_wilson01]

Yes. But since they said "captured in-engine" that means that some sections of the game were not running at full framerate. Behind the scenes video showcased scene that was running live with 26fps

As usual, framerate optimizations come last.

"VSYNC ON" makes me very happy. Hope it stays that way.

 

[Mr. PlayStation]

Nothing confirmed. Saw a February date flying around somewhere. Gotta be soon now considering both were playable at PGW



I get a feeling this might be what they plan to do.



Yep that makes some good sense!

Can't wait to re-experience the 21 endings of Heavy Rain and checkout Beyond2Souls

 

[MR ARCADE FOREVER]

I can't be the only one who expected a better graphics from QD right? not saying it's going to make the game worse or anything it's just after their tech demo at E3 2013 I expected something a bit more impressive.

I didn't see anything impressive on this game, the tech demo was much more impressive and even Until Dawn faces look better

 

[JNT]

"VSYNC ON" makes me very happy. Hope it stays that way.

Not if the framerate is 26 Hz.

 

[dragonbane]

I didn't see anything impressive on this game, the tech demo was much more impressive and even Until Dawn faces look better

If you go about raw graphics only maybe. Overall this is much more impressive than either. Until Dawn never has to render more than 4 characters in a closed space at once and the few times it does the framerate tanks. The Dark Sorcerer is even more limited in scope. This on the other hand renders an entire city block in rather great detail and manages to put about 50 unique characters on screen that are all individually animated. Some of them have enough detail to pass as a main character in other games, while they are just random NPCs here. If they really manage to get this level of fidelity during gameplay it will be an insane accomplishment. Getting this close to UD and Dark Sorcerer while expanding the scale tenfold is by all accounts impressive.

 

[Shin-Ra]

If you go about raw graphics only maybe. Overall this is much more impressive than either. Until Dawn never has to render more than 4 characters in a closed space at once and the few times it does the framerate tanks. The Dark Sorcerer is even more limited in scope. This on the other hand renders an entire city block in rather great detail and manages to put about 50 unique characters on screen that are all individually animated. Some of them have enough detail to pass as a main character in other games, while they are just random NPCs here. If they really manage to get this level of fidelity during gameplay it will be an insane accomplishment.

I think you fell for some very low quality bait.

 

[t_wilson01]

Not if the framerate is 26 Hz.

Of course I would prefer a steady frame rate (be it 30 or 60), but I'll take a few dropped frames over screen tearing any day.

I think you fell for some very low quality bait.

 

[ScottSullivan]

Im sure many have pointed it out, but i find it interesting that detroit is a french name, pronounced " deh tway" i believe, i wonder if that figured into qd decision making fir the setting

 

[rockman zx]

Im sure many have pointed it out, but i find it interesting that detroit is a french name, pronounced " deh tway" i believe, i wonder if that figured into qd decision making fir the setting

I don't think the name means much, is just they liked Detroit for whatever reason when they went location scouting for the game.

 

[dragonbane]

"VSYNC ON" makes me very happy. Hope it stays that way.

You can bet it will, since it was introduced in Beyond halfway into development to get rid of screen tearing for good. I doubt they would go back now, especially not on PS4.

I think you fell for some very low quality bait.

Hard to tell sometimes tbh

I don't think the name means much, is just they liked Detroit for whatever reason when they went location scouting for the game.

And one of the lead writers literally lives across the river. I'm sure that helped with the decision, since he probably knows the city in and out.

 

[bwakh]

Cage never fails when it comes to music. Flawless track record, exactly hits my tastes. Really hope this track gets a standalone release.

Agreed. Audio motifs in Heavy Rain were also used to great effect

 

[dragonbane]

Interesting observation. The big crowd in the trailer is already randomized and dynamic, as the same frame of the cutscene during the trailer and some behind the scenes footage have a vastly different NPC population.


Trailer:

Behind the scenes video:

Trailer:

Behind the scenes video: