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[SliceSabre]

I dislike the whole diversity quota thing people seem to like the idea of. That leads to 'tokenism' "Oh man we need a -insert minority- here!"

 

[Mr. RHC]

I'm especially disappointed that Vice and Wired didn't send female editors.

I think this problem was easily solved if they invited some of the not so famous editors from smaller sites.

There's plenty of good female perspective out there but think of it rather of a networking and advertising event for the high profile outlets.

 

[collige]

My university's Physics course had like 80 people and maybe 5 were women Is this a problem?

Yes? The university you go to is almost certainly trying to do something about this too.

 

[Wulfram]

I wonder what the make up of the people voting for the Neogaf GotY is

 

[FStop7]

Breitbart? Are you fucking kidding me?

 

[Ronin Ray]

So basically these judges are a fair representation of the people making video games and most of the big video games media . Not shocked because you know video games are only for white males apparently

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

All of them are incredibly huge, though. That they didn't show up for you before could be for so many different reasons. The Mary Sue is one of the biggest not only for games, but movies, TV shows and more. They get tons of visitors. The same goes for Offworld. I don't visit US Gamer frequently, so I can't say much, but I know about it.

I read review threads here on GAF for games I care about, and check metacritic from time to time. If I can't even recall having heard about them despite lurking on GAF for years, I honestly doubt they are big enough to displace any of the 32 currently selected members.

I dislike the whole diversity quota thing people seem to like the idea of. That leads to 'tokenism' "Oh man we need a -insert minority- here!"

This is my problem as well. Incidentally, why isn't anyone arguing that there isn't equal representation for non-americans? Or asians? Or black people? Or LGBT people? You're clearly all terrible people.

Look, I get that equal representation for women is a big thing right now, but no matter how great the cause, there's a right and a wrong way to go about it.

This is not the right way.

 

[igordennis]

"I don't care if they are white or blue or green as long as they are qualified. It is also a pretty interesting coincidence that 93% of them are white and male like me. Maybe that just means people who are not like me are not qualified at all, right?"

All of this about people "qualified" to give fucking "best music" opinions in videogames, lol. If we are going that deep, I doubt anyone in that list is qualified or has the proper background to be an authority judging that.

.

 

[Amused]

The problem is that pretty much anyone on the sites is qualified, so the job goes to the person with the highest rank. Combined with each judge being selected without knowledge of the others, and we get the 30 something white guy panel

And that is the point we go, hmmm, something is not right here. The system used to pick the jurors is flawed, we got a jury without legitimacy.

This is also the point were we get to make a choice - accepting the results of a process that has proven flawed, or changing the process to make sure we get better representation.

 

[JoseLopez]

Quality, insight, and impact is more important than quantity.

I like her but it's disingenuous to act like her knowledge in the field is up to a reviewers standard

 

[Guri]

My question is how would you make sure the 32 spots are 'representative'?

If you send an e-mail out the companies and say select 1 person in your group for the 32 places with an eye towards 'diversity' who is the say you get a similar result?

I means the only way to get get what you want is for them to handpick who they want but then you run into the problem "Did this person actually play any of these games?" which is the same problem you have above.

While certainly the industry needs more diversity I am shocked that others are shocked the judges panel has mostly white males on it. I mean, what dd you expect? I can't even think of 15 women critic of note and the ones I think of are from smaller outlets that wouldn't get a second look anyway.

Sorta of like being shocked that in movies industry that the Academy panel is made up of mostly white males.

And before you start I say this as a black male.

I can think of a few women and not just from small websites. The judges are picked before selecting the games, so the problem of not playing specific games would be avoidable and, frankly, it could also happen with men. The Mary Sue, Offworld and even a few of the ones which are there have important women in their staff. Some of them reviewing a lot of the games nominated there, in fact.

 

[Aaronrules380]

My university's Physics course had like 80 people and maybe 5 were women Is this a problem?

The lack of women in stem fields is absolutely an issue and one which pretty much every major university in the U.S. is trying to address to varying degrees of success.

 

[QuantumBro]

Well, no. I'm just curious. Seeing as enough people value her input as a critic, and she's been on the jury in the past, I see no reason why she wouldn't return.

If you twitter account, ask her that since she's on there. Though I'm sure you've been beaten to the punch by now.

Why is Jeff Gerstmann not a trending gamer of the year nominee? Why is PewdiPie one AGAIN?

Better question, Why is Anita Sarkeesian not a trending gamer of the year nominee?

Now THAT I would like to see, if only to see the beehive it kicks.

That award should just be wiped from the face of the Earth. They really couldn't nominate one non white male gamer for that.

 

[inky]

I dislike the whole diversity quota thing people seem to like the idea of. That leads to 'tokenism' "Oh man we need a -insert minority- here!"

There's no quota to be fulfilled. The gaming public is diverse, so if the sites covering for that gaming public are not then they should check why that is, especially because they sure fucking like writing about it all the time as if it was some problem that needed to be addressed.

It's not tokenism, it is asking these people to do some introspection.

 

[Boogdud]

Breitbart? Are you fucking kidding me?

Yeah! Games is our domain, they can't like the same things we do, they're fucking not even human! Oh like one of them could really be interested in games. Riiiiight.


Wait are we talking about women or conservatives? Sorry.. I'm not sure who I should hate irrationally.

 

[Henkka]

So if Geoff had some kind of criteria to avoid group think or whatever they wouldnt be able to find 30 different people? lol. Out of all of games journalism?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I'm guessing this is how it went down:

Geoff: Hey, Media Outlet! We're hosting The Game Awards again this year and would like your input on the best games of the year. We were wondering if a person in your staff would like to be on the jury.

Outlet: Hey, Geoff! Cool, thanks for contacting us. We decided that person X will be our representative on the jury.

Geoff: Alright, thanks!

Please note that this conversation is entirely speculative and fictional. Now, 30 times out of 32, person X happened to be male. This is probably because there are far more males in game journalism than females. Ensuring gender parity probably never occurred to either party. Now, you might say that this reflects the structural sexism of the games industry. Sure, but I still fail to see how this is Geoff's fault.

 

[213372bu]

I'm saying different critics with different genders, races, and backgrounds will as a whole group judge commercial works of art better than a group that's 93% homogeneous. This is an accepted truth when it comes to decision making bodies in the corporate world- certainly at Ivey, and it's true here.

Incidentally, it's already an accepted truth that gamers are more or less half men and half women.

Not trying to get in an argument or disagree that women should be represented but when talking about console/PC games, what the TGAs judge, the split is 70%+ males for multiple sties.

Studies with the 50% indicator are few and far between, and from the first link on the lmgtfy link you gave, include that female gamers are dominating mobile gaming and are heavily interested in trivia,word, and puzzle games.

So it's not hard to see why a 50/50 split shouldn't be strictly enforced.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Yeah! Games is our domain, they can't like the same things we do, they're fucking not even human! Oh like one of them could really be interested in games. Riiiiight.


Wait are we talking about women or conservatives? Sorry.. I'm not sure who I should hate irrationally.

There's a difference between conservatives and racists, lol

 

[SlipperyFishes]

Maybe Geoff doesn't know many women in the industry and is just is defaulting to his friends for this non-sensical "I want to get my friends together and network" get together.

 

[Northeastmonk]

If Geoff got all his contacts to go and maybe it's 80% men he's known for 20 some odd years then what does he do? Find new people?

Geoff has been around the industry long enough to know the ins and out and maybe he just happens to know those people will do it. That's just speculation.

 

[igordennis]

I like her but it's disingenuous to act like her knowledge in the field is up to a reviewers standard

What? Why? I'd say its disingenuous to act like its not. Her videos have shown in great lenght that she knows a lot more about this industry than the majority of these "critics" you speak of.

 

[Aaronrules380]

And that is the point we go, hmmm, something is not right here. The system used to pick the jurors is flawed, and we get a jury without legitimacy. This is also the point were we get to make a choice - accepting the results of a process that has proven flawed, or changing the process to make sure we get better representation.

I agree. The major websites should probably all be present and work together to create a judge panel. But they probably didn't even think about judge diversity when deciding how to select the panel. Convenience was probably their main concern for better or worse

 

[Oersted]

I like her but it's disingenuous to act like her knowledge in the field is up to a reviewers standard

Compared to critics or game reviewers? She has a critic background, game reviewers have mostly different/lower standards.

 

[Mesoian]

What are you talking about? Penalizing?



I am sorry, mesoian, but right now you're being overly aggressive for no reason. The Mary Sue is scrapping the barrel? Feminist Frequency? Offworld? US Gamer? I would use a different description than "scraping the barrel" when it comes to these sites and their journalists. All of them are high quality and highly popular. Scraping the barrel is a poor choice of words. What's wrong with asking for more diversity since you're reacting like this?

I am being a little aggressive, I get a little heated about subjects like this, as you know. Let me back it up a bit.

I'm not trying to say that the sites that you listed as examples are somehow inferior. There's a lot of interesting stuff that has to do with gaming that no one else is touching and that's important. But you know what I don't find on most of these sites? Regular game coverage. FemFreq, the Mary Sue, Offworld, they're all places where you can visit in order to get a different prospective on gaming culture, but they're not where you go when you want to see, for example, Horizon coverage. They aren't telling you what the best games are, they are, mostly likely, telling you why they are important. But most of all, they are open door blog sites where there are no fixtures. I might see a Carolyn Petit or a Leigh Alexander article on all three of these sites. So who gets chosen at that point? How do you ask someone that's working freelance for you to represent you? They are important in their own way.

But they are different. And the fact they exist doesn't mean that the fact that this list being 93% men and 81% white isn't just another symptom of the boys club nature of games' media. It isn't Keiley's fault that there are no female reviews editors out there. It's a bigger problem than that.

 

[Amused]

Now, you might say that this reflects the structural sexism of the games industry. Sure, but I still fail to see how this is Geoff's fault.

Unless he chooses to do shit about it, now that the results of the process he chose has proven flawed. He does nothing? Of course he is at fault.

 

[Aaronrules380]

If Geoff got all his contacts to go and maybe it's 80% men he's known for 20 some odd years then what does he do? Find new people?

Geoff has been around the industry long enough to know the ins and out and maybe he just happens to know those people will do it. That's just speculation.

Geoff didn't select the judges, just which outlets would be represented

 

[diaspora]

Not trying to get in an argument or disagree that women should be represented but when talking about console/PC games, what the TGAs judge, the split is 70%+ males for multiple sties.

Studies with the 50% indicator are few and far between, and from the first link on the lmgtfy link you gave, include that female gamers are dominating mobile gaming and are heavily interested in trivia,word, and puzzle games.

So it's not hard to see why a 50/50 split shouldn't be strictly enforced.

Not seeing what the issue is.

Incidentally, anyone who knows anything about the corporate world would understand why enforcing diversity on a body like this would lead to better judgements than under its current makeup.

 

[CryptiK]

Qualifications >>> Gender.

Explained perfectly why a gender balancing in some cases is just stupid: https://youtu.be/alDaBwuRxKQ

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

There's also no need to have it be 32 americans.

Thought there was a British guy on there, but yea, that too.

Perspective from different regions would be nice.

 

[bigboss370]

Geoff chooses the outlets, and then the individual outlets choose who represents them right? Its not like all the outlets are in collusion with each other and know who each organization is sending. I wish there were more women judges too but its not like Geoff or the Game Awards picked the judges themselves...

 

[Nekofrog]

For everyone who has posted that they "don't see a problem".

I want you to run through a quick exercise. Put your hands in front of you. Both of them, or one of them, it doesn't matter.

Now start counting on your fingers, and bend your finger down and then raise it back up 50 times.

Each time you do it, say "man". 50 times. Count your finger and say man while you bend it.

Now, on the last two, say "woman".

Seeing a problem yet?

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

My university's Physics course had like 80 people and maybe 5 were women Is this a problem?

I worked in marketing for 5 years at a university.

Diversity is absolutely a problem. One that colleges and universities spend A LOT of time, money and effort trying to solve.

 

[Hoho for breakfast]

I'd sure like to know how these people are picked before crying sexism or racism or whatever evil ism is ruining the world today. If 1 woman out of 32 people is representative of the games journalist industry, that's not the game awards fault. Or maybe it's not representative and it is their fault. Either way I hope people are using their brains here, regardless of gender or race.

 

[Ralemont]

Qualifications >>> Gender.

What qualifications?

 

[diaspora]

Qualifications >>> Gender.

A board that's forced to be more diverse >>> a board that's almost all men

(The Financial Review 38 (2003) 33--53)

 

[Jotaka]

People qualified... Really? What is required to be "qualified" to vote in this Award? As far I know they just need to play games and write something... so hard to be qualified



They are not devs... If you want award from real qualified people... check Game Developers Choice Awards

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I read review threads here on GAF for games I care about, and check metacritic from time to time. If I can't even recall having heard about them despite lurking on GAF for years, I honestly doubt they are big enough to displace any of the 32 currently selected members.

This is my problem as well. Incidentally, why isn't anyone arguing that there isn't equal representation for non-americans? Or asians? Or black people? Or LGBT people? You're clearly all terrible people.

Look, I get that equal representation for women is a big thing right now, but no matter how great the cause, there's a right and a wrong way to go about it.

This is not the right way.

I would argue for more racial representation as well if that was actually the topic at hand. But its not so it serves no purpose in this particular topic.

And explain to us the right way to get more women in these panels short of making their an incentive to pick women over men?

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Dudebros who will pick the most boring games of the year.

The list this year is pretty good. What stands out as Dudebro to you?

 

[jeffers]

Unless he chooses to do shit about it, now that the results of the process he chose has proven flawed. He does nothing? Of course he is at fault.

this is basically my stance. If Geoff wants this to be the game industry's main Award show and a celebration, he has to look at this result and do better.

 

[Monocle]

I dislike the whole diversity quota thing people seem to like the idea of. That leads to 'tokenism' "Oh man we need a -insert minority- here!"

Tokenism is the result of half-hearted concessions to "the PC crowd." There's a world of difference between tokenism and authentic commitment to diverse representation.

 

[Nekofrog]

A reminder:

A lot of the "games journalists" selected don't even have journalism degrees. They were bros of friends who reviewed games that got in on it, because they were bros.

Don't try and use "qualifications" as an excuse.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Quality, insight, and impact is more important than quantity.

Surely the best way to gain insight is to play games. If you want to be on a panel of game makers and reviewers, you should probably try reviewing a few too. Like, at least one every month.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

If you twitter account, ask her that since she's on there. Though I'm sure you've been beaten to the punch by now.



That award should just be wiped from the face of the Earth. They really couldn't nominate one non white male gamer for that.

markipluier Is apparently half Korean and german.

 

[213372bu]

Not seeing what the issue is.

Well they are awarding console games which have women nearing the <30% of the population of gamers?

I know this gets to be an iffy conversation on GAF and lots of clumping users together and generalization, but just saying that an active split of 50/50 wouldn't be representative of the gaming population, so there is no reason for it to be problematic if not enforced.

Additionally it would be welcoming if the jury in general was more diverse, it just wouldn't be not indicative of the audience base or problematic.

 

[WickedLaharl]

 

[Anticol]

Really, so we have to be 50/50 in absolutely everything? There is a ton of jobs where I don't see equality in numbers and nobody complains, neither men or women, but ok.

 

[Frostburn]

I don't understand what the issue is unless they are choosing less qualified males over females for the positions. Choose the most qualified people; gender, race, etc. be damned.

What is the percentage of male vs female game critics out there? Why does everything have to be an issue these days?

EDIT: It appears a few highly qualified people were left off the list in lieu of others, if that's the case then there is an issue at hand. I don't think anyone being rational is saying it needs to be 50/50 but the most qualified people should be chosen.

 

[Mesoian]

What qualifications?

A review of, or at the very least, serious coverage of most of the games of the year?

As I understand, the panelists are polled for nominees, and then the nominees are voted on.

Which creates problems in an of itself because, in a year where undertale came out and isn't on best RPG, it makes you wonder how many people on this panel actually played it.

THIS IS THE BIGGER ISSUE.

Well, a bigger issue.

I don't understand what the issue is unless they are choosing less qualified males over females for the positions. Choose the most qualified people, gender, race, etc. be damned.

Carolyn Penitt should be on this list, and it is a shame that she is not. One of the huge black eyes of games' media in general.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

A reminder:

A lot of the "games journalists" selected don't even have journalism degrees. They were bros of friends who reviewed games that got in on it, because they were bros.

Don't try and use "qualifications" as an excuse.

Who's calling themselves a journalist? The preferred nomenclature is critic, surely?

 

[SliceSabre]

There's also no need to have it be 32 americans.

This is an interesting take that complicates things even more, but in a good way.