cartographer
Member
If even Breitbart has an issue with a low number of women represented then you know you fucked up.
The Game Awards jury lists only 2 women out of 32 jurors (sites selected jurors)
- Thread starter Lime
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Vincent Grayson
Member
Yup. Even notorious accidental offend of "SJW" culture types Dan Harmon has specifically stated that when he was forced to hire a more diverse group of writers (basically, add women), he realized how stupid he had been about it before, and that it was indeed better with a better balance.
And like I have already said this is how we should do it. Im not saying how its currently done. Im not saying that historically there isnt a bias. Im saying there shouldnt be one fullstop.
Weltall Zero
Member
At this point I'm thinking it's impossible to convince anyone that doesn't already believe so that this is the case, even if there have been examples of companies forcing an even split and reporting much increased creativity. Hell, if people can't be convinced that you can get more than two female reviewers from the entire US without sacrificing qualifications, perhaps it's time to throw in the towel.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
I don't see how hard it is in the industry to find women journalist, in which there are many, to be apart of a game critic award panel.
Like, sure there isn't a lot.... But they exist and do exist in high tier circles.
Like, sure there isn't a lot.... But they exist and do exist in high tier circles.
SmoothBrain
Member
Without knowing how the jury was selected, this is all just speculation.
Also, asking for a quota isn't helpful in my opinion. Diversity in gender doesn't mean a diversity of opinions - why should it? A quota in this situation might actually just enforce that women get selected because of their gender. I think that's insulting. Unless other female journalists wanted to be in that jury, I don't see a problem.
Which has been a problem for a very long time, but I'm starting to believe that a majority of women who are able to study, just don't want to study i.e. physics. I don't want to, either.
Also, asking for a quota isn't helpful in my opinion. Diversity in gender doesn't mean a diversity of opinions - why should it? A quota in this situation might actually just enforce that women get selected because of their gender. I think that's insulting. Unless other female journalists wanted to be in that jury, I don't see a problem.
Which has been a problem for a very long time, but I'm starting to believe that a majority of women who are able to study, just don't want to study i.e. physics. I don't want to, either.
The last statement is more of a "what I believe" the split to be reading on the industry's efforts to diversify itself (doing so because of the low number of women in it). So that was meant as a statistical example, if you will.
Putting that aside - why is this an issue? Have any women stood up and said they were discriminated against because of gender? If not - certain people are making this an issue for no apparent reason.
You don't have to formally review a lot of games to gain experience and insight.
How is not up to a 'reviewers standard'? Does she need to talk about frame rate more? Maybe I shouldn't take any review of a story-based game seriously unless they have a degree in English literature. There are many different ways to look at and analyse art.
...by changing the requirements. He is the one ultimately assembling the panel.
At this point I'm thinking it's impossible to convince anyone that doesn't already believe so that this is the case, even if there have been examples of companies forcing an even split and reporting much increased creativity. Hell, if people can't be convinced that you can get more than two female reviewers from the entire US without sacrificing qualifications, perhaps it's time to throw in the towel.
Seriously. Creating a 50/50 split in judges doesn't mean qualifications and experience stop being important. You can have a decision making body with a requisite number of women, men, and racial minorities with qualifications and experience still being a factor for fucks sake.
I mean, it's already established in the corporate world that gunning for a more diverse body improves performance- you fucking think they've stopped caring about qualifications? Sweet christmas...
GiantBreadbug
Member
If you're defending this well, I guess just consider this:
How fucking hard could it possibly be for at least half of publications involved to come to the conclusion that a female amongst their ranks would do just as good, or better a job than a male representing them at the show? How is that so goddamned far fetched?
It isn't, and that's why this is an issue. I can not fathom the idea that there aren't talented, capable women at nearly all of these publications who could have served as judges.
Come on guys.
How fucking hard could it possibly be for at least half of publications involved to come to the conclusion that a female amongst their ranks would do just as good, or better a job than a male representing them at the show? How is that so goddamned far fetched?
It isn't, and that's why this is an issue. I can not fathom the idea that there aren't talented, capable women at nearly all of these publications who could have served as judges.
Come on guys.
Dangansona
Member
Edit: forget it. Also I didn't see that outlets choose who to send.
Aaronrules380
Member
It's true, but there are also a lot of societal factors that discourage it even now, which is a large part of why they don't want to. And even with pushes from universities, these societal norms usually reach girls at an earlier age and are far more present within the media and society
The outlets choose who to send. Ensuring a 50/50 split means going to a site and saying "give me a woman." Is that what you want?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
They could just ask every publication to provide names for both genders if that's too many they could choose from that list.
Why the hell wouldn't I want that? Why would you assume that outlets would start sending judges that aren't qualified to judge games? The corporate world only gets better when ensuring better representation, why wouldn't this group designed to critically judge commercial artistic works?
igordennis
Member
If there's a woman there "qualified" for the job, why not?
Gotdatmoney
Member
Because we are a society of people that categorize base on gender. Experiences of women are therefore entirely different than experiences of men. So why would your opinions not reflect those unique experiences?
viveks86
Member
By asking websites to nominate 2 people each instead of one? Hmmm... That could work I guess.
Yeah was thinking the same
Simply Sami
Member
What?
Andrea Rene is one of the worst journalists. There are bad journalists on both sides.
Because the outlet should decide who goes.
I still don't understand this line of thought. How were they excluded? Is there any proof that they weren't asked to join in a judges role because of their gender? If so - then yes - it's wrong. But if not - its not an issue. And anyone forcing a woman to participate in something (just because of her gender) she doesn't care to is wrong as well.
cartographer
Member
There's certainly enough for inclusion at mainstream outlets. And if they bothered to include non-mainstream sites, they'd be overflowing with qualified candidates.
I would hope that when THIS is how your employer chooses to represent themselves, it would raise up some flags.
Dude might be perfectly knowledgeable, but he's working for a pack of scumbags.
Aaronrules380
Member
Better yet, they could get a panel with all the participating sites where they sit down and choose people as a group, talking about the merits of each candidate, and considering things like diversity and who would serve to diversify the judging group as a team, rather than having each site independently choose based on the decision of what is likely one guy at the top
TheSpoiler
Member
Right?
You probably won't see many women speaking out against this stuff because the publications decide upon who's going. Imagine going to your boss and saying, "I feel like the odds are stacked against me in an industry that's already noninclusive." Think about how well that'll go over.
It seems like it would depend on what the categories are, right? I mean, in categories like "Best Graphics," or "Best PS4 Game," what would racial or gender diversity accomplish in helping more accurately deliver the awards to those who most deserve it?
I'm obviously not saying diversity is a bad thing, and it's a shame that games journalism is mostly white males, but I guess I just don't see what is wrong with it in this specific context.
I'm obviously not saying diversity is a bad thing, and it's a shame that games journalism is mostly white males, but I guess I just don't see what is wrong with it in this specific context.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
that sounds like a mess to organize and coordinate though.
Aaronrules380
Member
What does being a good judge mean?
Also the qualification of a panel is more than the sum of individual qualification. Even if every individual is highly qualified, that doesn't mean you'll get the best results. A panel should be diverse if the audience is diverse, because that will create results that will fit with audience perceptions much, much more accurately than a less diverse panel
Critics hailing from different walks of life or different backgrounds may have different critical opinions of what the best PS4 game might be. Even if they have a consensus on the title it may end up being for different reasons.
Why are you talking about the cooperate world? I doubt any of the publications even give a second thought on who they have representing them, they just throw their EIC's name on a piece of paper and they fill out some bubbles on what should win which category.
This isn't some momentous collection of people whose decisions matter. Did people even watch last year's? It's an advertisement for next year's games with some half-assed awards throw in.
To be fair: "Jurors 3,8 and 9, you're free to go"
They don't tell you why.
Because at most of these places, there aren't any women there.
That's the real problem. It's not an issue of "we don't want to", they literally can't.
Aaronrules380
Member
Maybe, but it doesn't even need to be all at once. Create a private forum and make the choice over a period of time for instance
igordennis
Member
Under the current system, yes. Geoff can change it though given the flaws like this one that have appeared.
RichyDevil
Member
Saddest/ironically funniest part of this is the whole thing could have been avoided this way:
1) Geoff looks at initial compiled list
2) Says "Whoops! We need some women and people of multiple ethnicities to make this more representative of the community."
3) Sends note to a bunch of the respondents he knows has those people on staff, saying "Hey, got a situation here, got nothing but dudes. Do you have some other recommendations?"
4) Sites respond "As a matter of fact we do!" to which they resubmit
5) Diverse panel is created, everyone is happy
Instead, he chose to (willfully or because he's so busy doing 1,000 things, I believe the latter) not do that and announce it to the world making everyone look bad.
Bummer.
1) Geoff looks at initial compiled list
2) Says "Whoops! We need some women and people of multiple ethnicities to make this more representative of the community."
3) Sends note to a bunch of the respondents he knows has those people on staff, saying "Hey, got a situation here, got nothing but dudes. Do you have some other recommendations?"
4) Sites respond "As a matter of fact we do!" to which they resubmit
5) Diverse panel is created, everyone is happy
Instead, he chose to (willfully or because he's so busy doing 1,000 things, I believe the latter) not do that and announce it to the world making everyone look bad.
Bummer.
silvermember
Banned
Here is a good lifehack, if people complain about something it probably does matter to them or the group. If you don't care it is probably because not everyone is like you. Thank god I am not you.
SolidSnakex
Member
I'm not trying to defend Breitbart (I hope it's not coming off like that). I'm just talking about this specific dude. By the way he makes it sound he would've filled out the initial form back when he was still working for Daily Dot. So it's more about him than the site.
Hmm could you give me an example?
We don't need proof of malice to prove that there is an issue with sexism in the industry. This is not the first time that a collection of white men have been the sole representatives at a gaming event. Literally no one is saying that a woman should be forced to participate in something against her will, either.
I'm talking about the corporate world, because anybody that's been following how board makeup impacts performance would see that decision making bodies that are more diverse perform better than ones that aren't. Consequently, I would argue that a group of judges- a decision making body would similarly perform better had TGAs pushed for more diversity in its decision making body.
Balmung421
Member
Agree.
Gotdatmoney
Member
So why not have it then?
Its like people dont see an inherent worth in including others just because they are also people. Every discussion on this board about gender or race in gaming is always met with, well what would it accomplish. How about so we recognize other genders amd races play games and want to be included in the disucssion?
Looking at it from a more simple point of view; Gamers buying and playing these games are a diverse set of people. Men, women, white, black, latino, etc. So, if you're running an Game Awards show that celebrates games, with a jury who decides these awards, it should be as diverse as the people playing these games.
It's pretty simple in my view. If it's not, something is wrong somewhere. These outlets should be looking at themselves as well and asking themselves "do we represent our audience?" If you're 90% men, 10% women and lacking in diversity? They have their answer.
It's pretty simple in my view. If it's not, something is wrong somewhere. These outlets should be looking at themselves as well and asking themselves "do we represent our audience?" If you're 90% men, 10% women and lacking in diversity? They have their answer.