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Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, what if that's the case?
The Game Awards jury lists only 2 women out of 32 jurors (sites selected jurors)
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
Yeah, what if that's the case?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
must be weird, I can't even imagine what it'd be like to work only with women.
They were chosen to represent their sites/magazines.
IMO that should be the end of the story.
BlastProcessing
Member
Let's start with the obvious. Neogaf is a place that you can sign up for anonymously. Do the moderators do mandatory gender checks? What would that even look like?
As to why your post got such a response, can you think of examples of a post where someone makes a strained analogy, then ends the post with "I don't believe this, but still think about it" and it's gone well. It's just a kind of firebomb of a post that is very difficult to build a constructive dialogue on.
When there is a subject about some (real or perceived) injustice, it's rarely fruitful to try to wrestle to conversation toward some other (real or perceived) injustice. There is always something else wrong, somewhere else, that doesn't change the subject at hand.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
But do they have any disabled reviewers in the review panel?
All publications should send one male and female reviewer...
As well as one other minority to make it nice and diverse as possible. Not possible with some though. Maybe. But it's literally checking quota boxes which irks me as a disabled gamer.
Before someone tells me blacks and asians and hispanics are a statistic minority in gaming: More hispanic and black men and women play then white men and women combined. Or is it one white step at a time?
But.
According to Geoff, he was asking the publications themselves to send someone but the Dorito Pope gets the blame. Again people blame the event instead of the system, lol.
Confused as hell.
All publications should send one male and female reviewer...
As well as one other minority to make it nice and diverse as possible. Not possible with some though. Maybe. But it's literally checking quota boxes which irks me as a disabled gamer.
Before someone tells me blacks and asians and hispanics are a statistic minority in gaming: More hispanic and black men and women play then white men and women combined. Or is it one white step at a time?
But.
According to Geoff, he was asking the publications themselves to send someone but the Dorito Pope gets the blame. Again people blame the event instead of the system, lol.
Confused as hell.
Note that I am not a... "disabled" traitor I guess? Absurd I had to type this but you know someone here will imply that I am a white man's pet minority.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
While it's probably not close to an even 50:50 ratio, I doubt it's the 6% represented here either.
Though I'm also of the mindset choosing one person to represent an entire site is dumb and they should just have the site represented as a whole for TGA rather than one elected individual, since I could pretty easily see websites opting to send in their EiC by default.
Xander Crews
Member
Right, my point was that it's open to everyone but we presumably skew male. Yet we want more female representation within gaming journalism. If sites are not hiring people because they are female, that is disgusting and wrong. If they are not hiring women because they aren't there, I don't want to put the blame on them. For the fact that it's common among many different sites makes me think it's fairly representative of people interested in gaming.
If not, there is a business opportunity waiting for someone to start a gaming site with more equal gender representation, or even a site that skews heavily female.
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Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Women are not a minority though.
Geoff & co. could have done something. Maybe:
1. write in your e-mail to the publications that you emphasize and value diversity
2. get in contact with sites and places that aren't just white dudes?
3. ask for help on how to best deal with such an issue
There's so much he and his colleagues could've done, but instead it was probably just apathetic status quo once again and letting the oppressive system do its white dude magic
1. write in your e-mail to the publications that you emphasize and value diversity
2. get in contact with sites and places that aren't just white dudes?
3. ask for help on how to best deal with such an issue
There's so much he and his colleagues could've done, but instead it was probably just apathetic status quo once again and letting the oppressive system do its white dude magic
Which therefore implies problems with all the systems prior to job seeking, eg social attitudes and education.
The only way you can belive there is no problem here is if you fundamentally think women are unsuited for the job should they be given the exact same opportunities as men.
BlastProcessing
Member
Very well said.
Why? People say that but they never follow it up. Why is it, exactly, equally as bad?
What if there already exists a large pool of women in games journalism but aren't ever in permanent positions for the larger sites. So many are mostly freelance and not by choice, but because there isn't much phasing out of the old and tired for the new and fresh in that field.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Holy shit, you know full well that's not what he was saying. That bad faith, keep it coming.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
You could say that about game journalism in general. Especially considering this VGA scenario is what the cream of the crop have produced.
Shadoken
Member
I think he means in the industry , not the consumers.
Yea i worked in an office where it was a majority of women. It was weird for a little bit but you get used to it
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Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
What? No? What are you trying to say?
Vault Dweller 111
Member
I guarantee the viewership is more than 16:1 dudes. So whatever.
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Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
If you can guarantee it, I assume it means you have the stats at hand right?
EatinOlives
Member
EDIT: misread your comment
Still, though, the Game Awards jury proportions are crazy, where the proportions are 94% male, 6% female.
not really. game journalism outlets may not be the new york times but they usually at least try to get their facts straight and do things like post corrections and updates to stories when there's stuff to add.
breitbart is 100% trash, and i'm not even talking about their obvious ideological bent. they just don't give any kind of a shit about facts and are one of the worst outrage-baiting tabloids in existence.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I wonder if there've been studies comparing the situations. As in, is it generally more comfortable for a man among women or a woman among men.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Its not. It just means people have to give up thier illusion of fair balanced just world. If you want to see more diversity in gaming this is good. No two ways about it.
Shadoken
Member
EDIT: misread your comment
Still, though, the Game Awards jury proportions are crazy, where the proportions are 94% male, 6% female.
I am mistake I guess , I was just basing my information off a post eariler that was showing the workforce for various game sites.
This one.
Double Edit -
LOL nvm
, you ninja'd your post.Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
Right so I said one man, one woman, and one "minority" would be nice too. Not just taking one small step at a time. I said that black and hispanic men and women also play more than whites. This is true. How many are actually on the list even if including women nominated? Little to none. (Haven't lined up data though, sorry) Hey a disabled reviewer would be nice if we are going to include someone from The Mary Sue site. Just IMO.
If you were confused sorry. On mobile, can't type well.
???
I'd like diverse reps too. While it would feel like quota checking to me, I'd enjoy it. Sorry if it wasn't eloquent, typing one handed while doing other work mate.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
The industry in general is not a very welcoming environment for women right now, so to be honest there are less women showing interest than there might otherwise be. I do think media outlets are trying to more actively court women as writers and contributors, but take a look at comment sections on the more loosely moderated sites-it's not pretty. Fact is the pool is much smaller than the actual player representation because there's more at risk.
On the flip, it's easier than ever to set up a blog/site and be your own voice, so it feels like more women who are interested in the industry are choosing that option. Of course, these are much less likely to get selected for the VGAs, which rely heavily on name recognition and AAA dollars.
viveks86
Member
Especially when all you need to do is vote for a game you like. Other than bringing recognition to the event, "merit", "experience" and "competency" aren't even that relevant to the topic. Bring people who have established credentials and make them as diverse as possible. It doesn't really matter if one is more objectively "skilled" than the other. We aren't putting a team together to cure cancer.
Exactly, we should try to move viewership closer to 1:1.
BlastProcessing
Member
Looking at gender issues in that type of black and white, "you are either disgusting and wrong or blameless" is a big part of the problem. There is a huge grey area of imperceived slights and when that are called out, it doesn't mean that anyone involved is a moustache twirling villain.
What would you guarantee the percentage of women who own consoles is?
EatinOlives
Member
I am mistake I guess , I was just basing my information off a post eariler that was showing the workforce for various game sites.
This one.
Double Edit -
LOL nvm
Yeah sorry, my graph was for the consumer proportions, not the industry. That is still definitely skewed far harder toward males, but I can't seem to find graphs on industry-side proportions.
zackmorris
Member
What did you expect? Look at the gaming mediums you really follow and see how many female journalists there are. If there were big names that were intentionally left out for lesser known male counter parts, ok maybe there is in issue. But I don't see that as what's happening here.
50/50 splits are stupid -- what an arbitrary thing. What if 10% more men were more qualified; does that mean you hire people who are not as qualified just to satisfy that arbitrary split? And yes, the same applies if it were 10% more women who were better at their job.
Hell, it can be 99% qualified women versus 1% qualified men if you wanna use that as an example. Their gender doesn't mean jack shit. The downside to this generation is how stupid it can be in trying so hard to be politically correct about everything.
Hell, it can be 99% qualified women versus 1% qualified men if you wanna use that as an example. Their gender doesn't mean jack shit. The downside to this generation is how stupid it can be in trying so hard to be politically correct about everything.
aspiegamer
Member
I'll say first that I don't at all think this was deliberate. These sorts of things are pretty much expected when the foundation of it is a jenga stack. Also, no one is really doubting the qualifications of any of these people in terms of reviews or editorial content. It could be 32 men or 32 women and I'm sure we'd end up with intelligent and informed results either way.
A think a more reasonable distribution here that people could agree with is the vague definition of "jury of one's peers". There are never quotas or requirements, but 30-32 male means there's a problem somewhere in the process. No one is asking for 50% equality, or 45% of gamers that are women, or even automatically the ~25-30% they are in web traffic to some of these sites. 30 of 32 is ridiculous regardless of metric. Really that's all people are trying to say. (That % was floated for IGN earlier in the thread)
A think a more reasonable distribution here that people could agree with is the vague definition of "jury of one's peers". There are never quotas or requirements, but 30-32 male means there's a problem somewhere in the process. No one is asking for 50% equality, or 45% of gamers that are women, or even automatically the ~25-30% they are in web traffic to some of these sites. 30 of 32 is ridiculous regardless of metric. Really that's all people are trying to say. (That % was floated for IGN earlier in the thread)
It means there's something broken in the institution on the whole. And that's exactly what we're trying to talk about.
Zambayoshi
Member
Nothing Geoff could do. If he told outlets to consider diversity when selecting the juror he'd be accused of being preachy. He also can't enforce quotas (which is a bad idea anyway) because how would he be able to reject the male choices of some outlets but not others without being charged with favouritism?
I always have a laugh and shake my head when people get all hot and bothered about pure numbers and representivity. You need to look at individual selectors and see whether in any case there is evidence of gender or racial bias.
I'm assuming in this case that (this being the internet) people latch onto easily quotable numbers and scream in outrage, rather than ask individual outlets what influenced their choice of juror (you know, the sensible thing to do).
If an outlet shows signs of gender bias or racial bias (and no, the mere fact of choosing someone of a particular race or gender is NOT a sign of bias in and of itself) then by all means, please take that outlet to task.
I always have a laugh and shake my head when people get all hot and bothered about pure numbers and representivity. You need to look at individual selectors and see whether in any case there is evidence of gender or racial bias.
I'm assuming in this case that (this being the internet) people latch onto easily quotable numbers and scream in outrage, rather than ask individual outlets what influenced their choice of juror (you know, the sensible thing to do).
If an outlet shows signs of gender bias or racial bias (and no, the mere fact of choosing someone of a particular race or gender is NOT a sign of bias in and of itself) then by all means, please take that outlet to task.
Palette Swap
Member
Looking at the list, a Breitbart advisor on the esports part? Fuck off.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The quota checking part confused me but then I also kinda agreed with the rest so hence the gif.
Xander Crews
Member
I appreciate the advice.
The main part of my post was that we presumably skew male, but we want more female representation in gaming journalism. If you agree with that, do you think we should have more female representation here as well?
wild wild rice
Member
Anyone know what Killscreen's ratio is? I wonder if they hold themselves to the same standards they hold others to.
Mr. Nice_Guy
Member
About what I expected 18 pages in.
First page already nailed the issue though. If what they said was true, that a lot of the people chosen look like people with higher up positions from different publications, then the issue of diversity lies there and not here. Sure they could have gone for the extra effort to make sure the panel, (that I can't imagine would have been discussed at all had this not been brought up) was more diverse. But in an ideal market they would not have to work to make that happen, so let's strive for that instead.
First page already nailed the issue though. If what they said was true, that a lot of the people chosen look like people with higher up positions from different publications, then the issue of diversity lies there and not here. Sure they could have gone for the extra effort to make sure the panel, (that I can't imagine would have been discussed at all had this not been brought up) was more diverse. But in an ideal market they would not have to work to make that happen, so let's strive for that instead.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Also, for anyone unfamiliar with Breitbart: they ran an unverified hit piece on Shaun King (black activist) written by Milo Y and using a baby picture on a Shaun King page (because no one else has that name) of proof that he was lying about his race. The whole thing was later proven to be false, but no apology or retraction.
They also ran a war on cops story after a police officer was found dead after radioing that he was pursuing suspects. Breitbart and several other outlets and politicians blamed it on the Black Lives Matter movement.
That officer was later found to have committed suicide, and to have been extremely crooked on top of that. Again, no apology or retraction.
So while Lewis' eSports-related work makes him a reasonable pick, the Breitbart affiliation flicks some switches for some people.
They also ran a war on cops story after a police officer was found dead after radioing that he was pursuing suspects. Breitbart and several other outlets and politicians blamed it on the Black Lives Matter movement.
That officer was later found to have committed suicide, and to have been extremely crooked on top of that. Again, no apology or retraction.
So while Lewis' eSports-related work makes him a reasonable pick, the Breitbart affiliation flicks some switches for some people.
The result of the juror selection method the GA chose (let the outlets decide) led to a bad jury composition. The root of the problem lies elsewhere, but the GA decides how their jurors are selected.
The results of the method chosen were (IMO) bad. And it harms the legitimacy of the award show. It is still possible to do something about that. I hope this is not the end of this story.
Anyway, there is nothing inherently right about leaving the selection up to the sites/magazines, so I don't see why we should just accept the results of said selection process.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
I've worked most of my adult life as a stylist, almost exclusively with women at every establishment. I didn't think anything of it, but I was raised by lesbians and a family full of single mothers. There's always a shitty boss/owner or coworker anywhere, but I'd say I was spoiled, if anything.
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Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not sure I follow you. Do you think that things are perfect as they are now and that means that men are naturally more competent than women in a vast majority of fields?
BlastProcessing
Member
What, exactly is the job here? It's a judge's panel, an inherently subjective pursuit.
If you look at representation in government, corporate leadership, and yes, games media, gender seems to, in fact, mean jack shit.
Xander Crews
Member
I agree. I could be wrong, but I really don't see Geoff and The Game Awards purposely tried to disallow women. He's trying to make game awards more like the Oscars of gaming and less like the Spike TV crap that came before. I just think they picked the best people and they happened to be men.
SolidSnakex
Member
4 men/2 women