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SSJ2 should've been a Gohan exclusive power up, with it being his full potential while in the Super Saiyan state. SSJ3 could've then made more sense as the unnatural transformation because Goku would've tried to tap into the type of power Gohan possessed, thinking that he might have that kind of strength, but could only do successfully with a dead body.

 

[Dereck]

Is Super Saiyan 3 a transformation that has yet to be mastered or is it just a flawed transformation that's going to drain the user's energy in any circumstance?

 

[guek]

Is Super Saiyan 3 a transformation that has yet to be mastered or is it just a flawed transformation that's going to drain the user's energy in any circumstance?

My understanding based on what Whis said this episode is that all of them are flawed if you can't control your ki properly. The translation I got had him criticizing Goku and Vegeta for allowing their ki to "spill" over and be sensed by their opponent.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

So....Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3, are arbitrary transformations?

As of Super they are.

I preferred SSJ2 when it was just an Gohan exclusive thing and wasn't even called SSJ2.

 

[Astral Dog]

That might be at the top of my list at this point.

What's our favorite park ranger been doing all this time? Chilling with mountain tribes? Ayahuasca?

And you'd think he might, you know, give his sister a call or something.

Remember that 17 always had more potential than Cell itself, he is dangerous.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

SS3 has always been an unreachable, almost ridiculous goal to achieve, requiring otherworldly circumstances to achieve (Goku had to die and could barely maintain the form, Gotenks could only achieve it through Fusion, etc.) Its really extravagant appearance plays up this fact well.

SS2 has always been a forced upgrade of SS1. The "eats up energy" retcon is believable because the only time we ever saw SS2 was

A) Gohan fighting Cell, and then again in the world tournament, very briefly
B) Goku vs. Vegeta
C) Vegeta cheating via Majin transformation

All of them were one time fights, so it seems natural for them to not realize until later on that the form is actually not as efficient as they once thought when used for sustained periods of time. They also dedicated an entire training segment to showing that it's possible to make SS1 an effortless transformation when Goku and Gohan went on their relaxing spree before the Cell Games. And, if you think about it, Super Saiyan is only seen in DBS on a few occasions, all of which make sense for it to be used over SS2:

A) Gohan transforming, which is always anger induced and canonically not even required for him to power up since his potential was unlocked. It can also be argued that he transforms to make up for his lack of training, having lapsed from his peak and using the transformation to compensate for it. Why waste his energy on SS2 when he can effortlessly go SS1 with no consequences?
B) Goku and Vegeta using it for SSB. Again, if God Ki unlocks potential, you would no longer need to transform into a forced powered up state, which is what SS2 has always been. SSB would be a much more efficient form.

And then there's the fact that the one time Goku fights before unlocking his God Ki he does, in fact, resort to SS3. Narratively the reversion to using SS1 over SS2 or SS3 actually has an in-universe excuse to make perfect sense, even if it is a total retcon from the reader's perspective. Out of all the other ways DB awkwardly handles its lore, this is one of the more sensible alterations to the story that it's made.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

SSJ2 will always be the most ambiguous shit because toriyama doesn't have an answer himself

 

[Ultra Numb]

As of Super they are.

I preferred SSJ2 when it was just an Gohan exclusive thing and wasn't even called SSJ2.

Yeah, back then it was pretty much the "Ascended" status but perfected. It wasn't anything too crazy like huge hair and no eye brows, but sharper hair, more violent aura.

 

[Zalman]

It's always better to use the lower Super Saiyan transformations because they eat up less energy, but if the opponent is too strong they don't really have a choice. That's why Goku used SS3 in his first fight against Beerus.

SS2 is a weird middle ground right now. I don't really see anyone using it anymore in the future, except maybe Gohan if he needs to.

 

[dity]

As of Super they are.

I preferred SSJ2 when it was just an Gohan exclusive thing and wasn't even called SSJ2.

The true secret of why SS2 and 3 aren't in Super: Toei can't draw them anymore. Episode 5 is forever in our hearts.

 

[NeonZ]

That didn't dispute what I just said. It just reinstated it. "Powered up". What do you think that implies?

They are power ups, but it's mention that by training SSJ eventually it surpasses SSJ2 due to wasting less energy. That's why he isn't going to use SSJ2 and SSJ3 anymore, because after a while it actually surpasses the quick energy increases given by those forms, which is why they're described as "nothing more" than powered up versions.

The whole SSJ2 is a massive energy drain is a retcon. I could be wrong but for the longest SS2 had no drawbacks. SS3 was stated to be a massive energy drainer from the start, but didn't take away from the fact that SS3 > SS2 > SS1.

SSJ2 was never stated to be an energy drain specifically, but transformations in general were stated to be straining in the Buu Saga, which was a retcon after the whole permanent SSJ training in the Cell Saga, which seemed to establish that it was possible to gain huge boosts by getting used to SSJ like a base form, with no strain. So, this retcon in a way is basically just bringing back the advantage that SSJ1 had in the Cell Saga and that was ignored afterwards.

 

[Jaeger]

SS2 being a "useless" form is a retcon. It was an apex at one point having no flaws. Speed and power and no loss of energy. And at its introduction in the Cell games it was demoed to be a clear and obvious eclipse in power between 1 and 2. Between Cell and Gohan. Between Goku and Gohan. Cell couldn't even make him flinch if he was allowed to land a blow on Gohan.

I'm aware that 'now' things have changed but again, this is after many many years.

 

[Zalman]

SS2 being a "useless" form is a retcon. It was an apex at one point having no flaws. Speed and power and no loss of energy. And at its introduction in the Cell games it was demoed to be a clear and obvious eclipse in power between 1 and 2. Between Cell and Gohan. Between Goku and Gohan. Cell couldn't even make him flinch if he was allowed to land a blow on Gohan.

I'm aware that 'now' things have changed but again, this is after many many years.

Nobody said it was useless. It's more powerful than SS1. It just eats up more energy, which is why they're sticking to SS when they can.

 

[Varna]

Nobody said it was useless. It's more powerful than SS1. It just eats up more energy, which is why they're sticking to SS when they can.

Like he said. It's a retcon. It certainly did not eat up more energy during the Cell games or Buu saga.

 

[Jaeger]

Nobody said it was useless. It's more powerful than SS1. It just eats up more energy, which is why they're sticking to SS when they can.

What was said or rather implied was that SS2 and SS3 were not worth using and weren't a real advantage over 1. That may be the case now via retcon but that was not the case at the time they originally came about and until now. At least with SS2. SS2 had no negatives. And was vastly superior to SS1.

SS3 was established from the get-go as a massive energy consumer, but not in the same sense as prior SS transformations. SS3 was some random form that only was obtainable in the afterlife or through fusion.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Like he said. It's a retcon. It certainly did not eat up more energy during the Cell games or Buu saga.

It wasn't used for very long in the Cell games and the only times it was used for sure in the Buu arc was by a dead Goku and Majin Vegeta. Not exactly the best examples to say SSJ2 didn't drain energy.

 

[BBQMan]

Eh I think we will get more transformations regardless gotta sell dat merch. With the

Spoiler

new Saiyans coming maybe they have different transformations

 

[NeonZ]

Like he said. It's a retcon. It certainly did not eat up more energy during the Cell games or Buu saga.

The Buu Saga talked about all SSJ forms being straining though, which by itself was a retcon, considering FP SSJ in the Cell Saga. SSJ2 was never established as being as "natural" as SSJ got at that point.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

My wish is to see Goku and Bulma traveling together to bring back the adventure.

Sadly a shonen manga/anime will never center around an adult male and a Platonic friend adult female travelling together.

 

[Jaeger]

It wasn't used for very long in the Cell games and the only times it was used for sure in the Buu arc was by a dead Goku and Majin Vegeta. Not exactly the best sample size to say SSJ2 didn't drain energy.

Of course it wasn't used much in the Cell games. It's the trump card that was used to decisively defeat Cell near the end of the saga. Even then, it was clearly shown as a form lacking any of the same issues as the previous forms. The whole saga was about trying to obtain that very form. Maybe some of your memory of the saga is fuzzy, but this is what it was all about. Even if only Gohan ever used the form, it was a form without flaws. The speed needed to keep up (and surpass) Cell's, and the power to take him out.

 

[Blader]

The idea of SSJ transformations -- 1, 2, and 3 -- eating up energy was a retcon established in the Buu saga. It's the whole point of the Mystic Gohan power-up: to tap into his full potential without burning up power just through transformations.

 

[Jinjo]

Eh I think we will get more transformations regardless gotta sell dat merch. With the

Spoiler

new Saiyans coming maybe they have different transformations

Excuse me if I'm out of the loop, but what

Spoiler

new saiyans exactly?

 

[ArchedThunder]

Of course it wasn't used much in the Cell games. It's the trump card that was used to decisively defeat Cell near the end of the saga. Even then, it was clearly shown as a form lacking any of the same issues as the previous forms. The whole saga was about trying to obtain that very form. Maybe some of your memory of the saga is fuzzy, but this is what it was all about. Even if only Gohan ever used the form, it was a form without flaws. The speed needed to keep up (and surpass) Cell's, and the power to take him out.

The flaw it was missing was the slowness of ultra, that's it. The form has never been in use by a living person for long enough to say it isn't an energy drain.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

The only one that was said to drain energy was ssj3. Ssj2 was something they tried to achieve an entire season. Whn gohan finally did it i saw np signs of him exerting more energy nor did it even have a time limit like ss3 it was retconned out

 

[Jaeger]

The idea of SSJ transformations -- 1, 2, and 3 -- eating up energy was a retcon established in the Buu saga. It's the whole point of the Mystic Gohan power-up: to tap into his full potential without burning up power just through transformations.

You are correct. The writers have to try and make a case for why they are now giving them a new form. And that's because the ultimate evil power (Frieza, Androids, Cell, Buu... etc etc) is now a threat and we have to make our heroes be able to take them on. So they backtrack and make the previous form inadequate stating they cause "energy loss" and stuff (which I feel is lazy as hell).

When Goku obtained SS1 versus Frieza he showed no signs of energy drain. And went out to way to say Frieza's 100% form was the form that was draining energy. He was even able to power out of SS1 and right back into it with no problem.

Then Trunks comes warning of a greater danger and asks Goku is he's mastered transforming into it (implying he wasn't able to at will before). And the whole hunt for powering up SS1 starts. And so on, and so on.

The flaw it was missing was the slowness of ultra, that's it. The form has never been in use by a living person for long enough to say it isn't an energy drain.

And that's not true. The entire fight between Gohan and Cell was more than enough to establish that.

 

[OldAsUrSock]

Eh I think we will get more transformations regardless gotta sell dat merch. With the

Spoiler

new Saiyans coming maybe they have different transformations

More human transformations could fill that money void. It doesn't make sense for Humans and Sayains being compatible beings with many similarities leaving with Humans not having even one transformation.

 

[dity]

The flaw it was missing was the slowness of ultra, that's it. The form has never been in use by a living person for long enough to say it isn't an energy drain.

Yeah- USSJ Stage 2 (I think stage 3 wasn't canon) seemed to be stronger than Cell but lacked the speed. However SSJ2 was more afflicted by anger than USSJ IIRC.

Is the SSJ2 fight between Goku and Vegeta canon? Cause both fighters had a handicap to even be able to stay in that form for long (majin, and being dead).

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I thought it was obvious that the form consumes energy when your body randomly discharges lightning bolts into your surrounding instead of containing that raw energy for actual purposes like attack and defense.

 

[Jaeger]

I thought it was obvious that the form consumes energy when your body randomly discharges lightning bolts into your surrounding instead of containing that raw energy for actual purposes like attack and defense.

The lighting was to demonstrate how powerful the form was over the previous one (energy dispersion via lightning and what not is a common trope), and to help further differentiate the visual differences between SS1 and SS2.

 

[dity]

I thought it was obvious that the form consumes energy when your body randomly discharges lightning bolts into your surrounding instead of containing that raw energy for actual purposes like attack and defense.

Nah, that was just their Coolness Factor.

 

[NeonZ]

I thought it was obvious that the form consumes energy when your body randomly discharges lightning bolts into your surrounding instead of containing that raw energy for actual purposes like attack and defense.

The recent episode of Super specifically calls out visible auras as being leaked energy too, so it manages to make this retcon fit pretty well with what was established before.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

The lighting was to demonstrate how powerful the form was over the previous one (energy dispersion via lightning and what not is a common trope), and to help further differentiate the visual differences between SS1 and SS2.

Nah, that was just their Coolness Factor.

Yeah, but Ultimate Gohan in the Buu Saga had full access to and full control of all of his power and he didn't cast any lightning bolts. In the anime he has a minimal, simple white aura, and in the manga his aura is even fainter if not completely missing.

The recent episode of Super specifically calls out visible auras as being leaked energy too, so it manages to make this retcon fit pretty well with what was established before.

Cool, didn't know that. (Haven't watched the episode yet.)

 

[LordOfChaos]

Eh I think we will get more transformations regardless gotta sell dat merch. With the

Spoiler

new Saiyans coming maybe they have different transformations

It would be cool if like, some forms focused on top speed rather than more power, as a corollary to the overpowered slow flawed forms we've seen in DBZ before. Basically Mewtwo X vs Y.

 

[Jaeger]

The recent episode of Super specifically calls out visible auras as being leaked energy too, so it manages to make this retcon fit pretty well with what was established before.

Agreed. I like retcon, personally. And it works well within the context of the show. I was always against the whole SS2, SS3, SS4 SS5 etc nomenclature. Too convoluted.

Yeah, but Ultimate Gohan in the Buu Saga had full access to and full control of all of his power and he didn't cast any lightning bolts. In the anime he has a minimal, simple white aura, and in the manga his aura is even fainter if not completely missing.

Artistic changes and again all post the original introduction of the form.

 

[Dark_castle]

SSJ2 is cool. I like the added lightning sparks around the aura, and the aura also burns brighter and fiercer. Too bad it was so quickly forgotten.

 

[Blader]

When Goku obtained SS1 versus Frieza he showed no signs of energy drain.

Well, they were only fighting for five minutes.

 

[Jaeger]

Well, they were only fighting for five minutes.

Lol I see what you did.

 

[dity]

Speaking of "artistic changes" I like how some games give you the option between Frieza/Android Saga SSJ1 Goku and Cell Games and beyond SSJ1 Goku. His hair changed to become more spikey during the Cell Games, compared to how smooth it was originally.

 

[ElFly]

Is the SSJ2 fight between Goku and Vegeta canon? Cause both fighters had a handicap to even be able to stay in that form for long (majin, and being dead).

It happens in the manga if that's what you are asking.

However, I don't think that Vegeta is using Majin possession to power SSJ2; he can naturally achieve that. The Majin possession is only an excuse to fight Goku right then and there, cause he was tired of waiting for the tournament, and dealing with Babidi and Dabura. Dude just wanted to fight Goku, and if getting possessed was going to get him there, well, let's get possessed.

 

[Jaeger]

Speaking of "artistic changes" I like how some games give you the option between Frieza/Android Saga SSJ1 Goku and Cell Games and beyond SSJ1 Goku. His hair changed to become more spikey during the Cell Games, compared to how smooth it was originally.

Yea, overtime as AT's art style progressed, he started to draw lines in the individual spikes as well as make the hair smaller over all and defined with a specific shape/design [of the hair]. The original manga panels with Goku in SSJ had his hair huge.

 

[dity]

It happens in the manga if that's what you are asking.

However, I don't think that Vegeta is using Majin possession to power SSJ2; he can naturally achieve that. The Majin possession is only an excuse to fight Goku right then and there, cause he was tired of waiting for the tournament, and dealing with Babidi and Dabura. Dude just wanted to fight Goku, and if getting possessed was going to get him there, well, let's get possessed.

But didn't Vegeta specifically take the Majin possesion to power up to be on par with Goku?

That's what I remember anyway

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

But didn't Vegeta specifically take the Majin possesion to power up to be on par with Goku?

That's what I remember anyway

Actually yes you are correct. Funny enough goku still was holding back..hehe

 

[guek]

I kinda miss beefcake Goku

 

[Dereck]

Did the series ever address the possibility of SSJ2 being mastered like SSJ1 was during the Cell games?

Since SSJ2 was never mastered, I think the energy drain comes down to the saiyans hardly ever using it. Why abandon the "stay in this form while eating Cheetos", mindset that everyone had during the Cell games?

 

[Vice]

Did the series ever address the possibility of SSJ2 being mastered like SSJ1 was during the Cell games?

Since SSJ2 was never mastered, I think the energy drain comes down to the saiyans hardly ever using it. Why abandon the "stay in this form while eating Cheetos", mindset that everyone had during the Cell games?

There was no reason to train that hard. Gohan had to study and Vegeta spent time with Trunks which meant less intense training, I mean he barely learned Trunks could go ssj until the Buu saga right? Only Goku had the freedom to train as hard as possible and he got ssj3.

 

[Melfice7]

It wasn't used for very long in the Cell games and the only times it was used for sure in the Buu arc was by a dead Goku and Majin Vegeta. Not exactly the best examples to say SSJ2 didn't drain energy.

Gohan used it against Dabura and Vegeta used it against Kid Buu

But didn't Vegeta specifically take the Majin possesion to power up to be on par with Goku?

That's what I remember anyway

It's implied Vegeta was SSJ2 already but noticed Goku is still stronger than him, thus needing Majin

 

[BBQMan]

More human transformations could fill that money void. It doesn't make sense for Humans and Sayains being compatible beings with many similarities leaving with Humans not having even one transformation.

Humans aren't relevant any more and will not be relevant again.

Excuse me if I'm out of the loop, but what

Spoiler

new saiyans exactly?

Spoiler

The New super issue revealed that Champa will be getting his own Saiyans from his universe.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

SS2 was the coolest looking one so it's too bad they're getting rid of it but whatev

 

[ArchedThunder]

Speaking of "artistic changes" I like how some games give you the option between Frieza/Android Saga SSJ1 Goku and Cell Games and beyond SSJ1 Goku. His hair changed to become more spikey during the Cell Games, compared to how smooth it was originally.

It was a nice touch in BT3

Gohan used it against Dabura and Vegeta used it against Kid Buu

Gohan didn't have sparks when fighting Dabura(at least in the manga), he only went SSJ2 at the tournament beforehand and Vegeta was dead when using it against Buu and lasted for about 5 panels in the manga before getting knocked back into base form.

 

[Kagari]

It was a nice touch in BT3


Gohan didn't have sparks when fighting Dabura(at least in the manga), he only went SSJ2 at the tournament beforehand and Vegeta was dead when using it against Buu and lasted for about 5 panels in the manga before getting knocked back into base form.

He was SSJ2 during the Dabura fight. Why would he not be?