I'm talking about all the time he spent walking around with the helmet but no hood. The helmet looks incredibly stupid.
[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens - It's True. All of it.
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
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This was insanely good. It delivered, a thing i didn't think it was possible at all.
Death Star, Round 3 was very, very, dumb though. Completely un-needed, especially that rushed. The only relevant (and good) part is the Han Solo part - Having another death star, and again the empire back without any actual republic... Find something new, christ. It was already dumb in ANH when Alderaan got wiped and nobody except Leia seemingly gave a shit.
It really doesn't feel like space at all. By contrast, the prequels had actually got that down.
Jakku was insanely good though. Dat Millennium Falcon.
Death Star, Round 3 was very, very, dumb though. Completely un-needed, especially that rushed. The only relevant (and good) part is the Han Solo part - Having another death star, and again the empire back without any actual republic... Find something new, christ. It was already dumb in ANH when Alderaan got wiped and nobody except Leia seemingly gave a shit.
It really doesn't feel like space at all. By contrast, the prequels had actually got that down.
Jakku was insanely good though. Dat Millennium Falcon.
Murder. She Wrote
Member
My ranking:
1. ESB
2. New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi/Force Awakens tied
5. III
6. II
7. I
So in my eyes, there has only been one truly phenomenal star wars movie (V), one really good one (IV), three kinda eh ones (III,VI,VII) and two really crappy ones (I,II).
1. ESB
2. New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi/Force Awakens tied
5. III
6. II
7. I
So in my eyes, there has only been one truly phenomenal star wars movie (V), one really good one (IV), three kinda eh ones (III,VI,VII) and two really crappy ones (I,II).
Beliefs for things like the physics can mkre or less be suspended in star wars as it's more of a fantasy than science fiction that is centred around the "science". Taking leeway in these areas in Star Wars is OK as the story does not revolve around these.
But things like the sun going out are centred around the plot, which makes it stick out.
One of the great lessons of the prequel trilogy is that we need FAR less time discussing the governmental systems of the Galaxy. Cause that shit ain't exciting.
There are weapons capable of deflecting lightsabers. Vibroweapons for example have existed for thousands of years, and have been known to withstand a few lightsabers blows. In fact, young Jedi train using vibroblades and swords before they build their own lightsabers.
It wouldn't be a stretch to say they've improved on the technology since then. Makes sense for a group tasked with killing Luke Skywalker to have something like that.
Pretty much my thoughts, as well.
There was a lot of derivative stuff from A New Hope (desert planet, "Death Star," flying in a trench, rag-tag rebels., etc.).
I also wish we would of seen a new (and more clear) power dynamic in the wake of Episode VI. I didn't really understand what the dynamic between the 3 powers (New Republic, Rebellion, New Order) was. Why wouldn't the Resistance (Rebellion) just be integrated with the Republic. Also, is the Republic caput for real? Was that really Coruscant they blew up? It didn't seem like that big a deal when it happened. It would have been cool to see a subversive militia as the New Order instead of the fully formed army that we saw.
Lastly, some of th "big" moments came off as very predictable (even if it ultimately didn't hurt the film in my eyes).
Overall I really liked the movie.
That was because the audience didn't really need to know more than EMPIRE vs. NOT EMPIRE. It didn't really matter who the emperor was or how long the empire had been in power. When you were watching ANH, you had no idea that the empire was about twenty years old and was created after an evil wizard overthrew a democratically elected government. You just knew the empire was evil. Maybe there was always an empire, who knows? But in this film, everyone goes in knowing that the Rebels defeated the Empire at the end of RotJ. People are gonna wonder why the empire is back and what the good guys did after RotJ. Imagine if there was a new Harry Potter movie starring ALBUS SEVERUS POTTER and they're like, "Hey Voldemort's back!" and then Hogwarts assigns a fifth grade class to deal with it independently. People are going to say "Huh?"
Kenobi was pretty bummed. And Leia probably cried off screen. That scene is classic Star Wars, but I always thought it was weird that Grand Moff Tarkin just blew up a planet with seemingly no oversight from anyone.
Inferno313
Banned
Yeah, I've seen a decent handful of people complain that we don't know enough about The First Order, but it's like:
1. What more do you need to know than "The Remnants of the Empire have reformed as The First Order in the Outer Rim" which the film makes perfectly clear, imo.
2. I can't believe anyone would want more exposition into intergalactic politics in a Star Wars film. I thought everyone agreed that was one of the large problems of the Prequels. In the OT, it's never explained on a political level why people were dissatisfied with the Empire and formed a Rebel Alliance, and that works just fine. Star Wars is a fairy tale, not hard a Sci-fi.
Well that weapon that the stormtrooper uses to fight Finn is very similar to the ones used by the Magnaguards in Revenge of the Sith:
It's so ambitious and packed full of goodness... Lowest point for me is Maz Kanada -- the delivery of her lines is unexpectedly listless (they use almost entirely different takes than the bits we heard in the trailers and tv spots).
Other than that, the pacing could have used more variety. It's pretty much A New Hope in that regard -- a race to the finish the moment they leave Jakku, with the unfortunate caveat being that the film is full of high-emotion ESBish moments that beg for the film to slow down. A repeat viewing might alleviate this a bit, but that was my initial nitpick.
The most interesting thing for me is how the film sheds light on the returning characters through the perspective of new characters. The film follows Rey, Finn, and Kylo when we're used to following Han, Leia, and Luke. The result being that when Snoke casually drops a bombshell about Han, or when Han and Leia refer back to past events (some of which occur after RotJ), my reaction was always, "I want to see that!" It's hard to describe what exactly I mean, but I do agree that it sometimes feels like there's a movie missing between this and Jedi.
Anyway, what's here is so finely crafted that despite whatever quibbles I have, I'd still place this right behind ESB. That film is perfect. This film is not. That said, I feel more of an emotional connection to The Force Awakens than I ever have to A New Hope. The new cast is like... almost unexpectedly phenomenal... and I'd watch this over IV in a heartbeat.
Other than that, the pacing could have used more variety. It's pretty much A New Hope in that regard -- a race to the finish the moment they leave Jakku, with the unfortunate caveat being that the film is full of high-emotion ESBish moments that beg for the film to slow down. A repeat viewing might alleviate this a bit, but that was my initial nitpick.
The most interesting thing for me is how the film sheds light on the returning characters through the perspective of new characters. The film follows Rey, Finn, and Kylo when we're used to following Han, Leia, and Luke. The result being that when Snoke casually drops a bombshell about Han, or when Han and Leia refer back to past events (some of which occur after RotJ), my reaction was always, "I want to see that!" It's hard to describe what exactly I mean, but I do agree that it sometimes feels like there's a movie missing between this and Jedi.
Anyway, what's here is so finely crafted that despite whatever quibbles I have, I'd still place this right behind ESB. That film is perfect. This film is not. That said, I feel more of an emotional connection to The Force Awakens than I ever have to A New Hope. The new cast is like... almost unexpectedly phenomenal... and I'd watch this over IV in a heartbeat.
The story is not about the fall of the New Republic. We have not seen how the development of Death Star 3.0 went and how exposed this threat was to the new republic. With a different approach of the story, the destruction of those planets could've been the climax of a film with lot's of exposition and foreshadowing, but the story followed different perspectives. Perspectives of people who are not close to the New Replublic at all.
That doesn't mean there isn't a huge impact to the galaxy nor that this victory of the New Order was so easily obtained; They simply did not show the road towards it. We do not know why the republic did not take the new order seriously, how they tie to the rebels or even what the current state of political affairs is/was in general etc.
Sure, I would like some more information, but I like that the focus lies on the personal journey's of several seemingly "insignificant" persons.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
The entire point of the OT was to remove the Empire from power and to restore the Republic.
The New Republic getting destroyed in a single shot acceptably because "LOL prequels" is incredibly stupid.
Now why should we give a shit about Rey and company defeating them again?
Episode 10 can just come along and bring the Empire right on back and undo any success of this trilogy.
I'm pretty sure the entire Republic isn't destroyed. Just some of the main planets.
In fact I'm pretty sure the First Order is near gone actually.
At least in A New Hope we have Obi-Wan explaining to Luke about the backstory of the Old Republic and the Jedi and how they were destroyed by the Empire. I don't think we even get that much in The Force Awakens.
Sanctuary
Member
Oh, I agree that the world building in the prequels was pretty bad, it's just that it at least attempted to expand the universe in some way. TFA was pretty bad though in that regard too because it seemed to be at odds with itself. Not only did it seem to be directly trying to remake ANH, it basically eschewed the scant, yet adequate world building from the original trilogy. It's like the movie was made for both people new to the franchise, yet also for those who grew up with it and didn't need the world building, because they already are invested in the mythology. For those new to the franchise it left too many unanswered questions, and for those well acquainted, it was old hat, yet still not enough.
Basically, it can't stand on its own. It relies way too much on the previous movies, which is bad for the newcomers it was aimed at.
I thought Harrison Ford nailed it. Carrie Fisher on the other hand was completely lifeless and seemed not to be enjoying herself at all.
That was my exact ranking too before seeing this movie. In terms of it being an enjoyable movie, I would have to put it right below Return of the Jedi. For a Star Wars movie though, I'd rank it last.
That was the impression I got. I'm not even sure that was Coruscant that was destroyed. It seemed like it was a local Republic galaxy that was providing support for the Resistance. I guess you could look at it like the Western nations' backing of Kurdish rebels in the Middle East and the New Order is ISIS.
Yeah. They must have a backup on another system. I wish Hux was a bit more menacing because he was actually competent.
encephalon
Member
This is what I took away from the movie as well. Rey pulls off a number of feats, but there's a sense of desperation and real danger throughout it all.
sleverfunk
Member
Just finished watching it the 2nd time.
The scene where kylo, snoke and hux were talking after rey escaped, kylo was such a whiny kid on that scene plus the angle of the shot just adds to it.
Kylo and hux rivalry was also good.
The scene where kylo, snoke and hux were talking after rey escaped, kylo was such a whiny kid on that scene plus the angle of the shot just adds to it.
Kylo and hux rivalry was also good.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Hopefully the First Order doesn't have a huge presence in the next two.
They should be ANH/ESB Rebellion sized after that at the absolute most.
Hoping Leia gets promoted to whatever's left of the Republic's Chancellor at the start of 8.
As I saw the dynamic of forces in TFA was:
First Order, the remnants of the empire a growing force(conquering systems that are not align with the republic) that the new republic doesn't see as threat or doesn't want to engage (because they want stability and not a new war), and only the resistance sees as a threat and fight it with the equipment of the rebellion, that's why they refer the fleet of the republic, the one capable of destroying the first order starkiller base. The first order destroy the centers of the galactic republic and then only the resistance remains now to oppose first order. Doesn't take much to understand with the info given by the movie.
First Order, the remnants of the empire a growing force(conquering systems that are not align with the republic) that the new republic doesn't see as threat or doesn't want to engage (because they want stability and not a new war), and only the resistance sees as a threat and fight it with the equipment of the rebellion, that's why they refer the fleet of the republic, the one capable of destroying the first order starkiller base. The first order destroy the centers of the galactic republic and then only the resistance remains now to oppose first order. Doesn't take much to understand with the info given by the movie.
Honestly the only thing movie really needed to explain was that FO was in control of the Outer Rim or whatever and that the Republic couldn't directly intervene because whatever reason they had.
That's obviously what's going on given the info in the opening crawl but I don't really get why they didn't have Leia say something about it.
I thought it was okay. It repeats similar beats as ANH but I already expected that they will after the failure of the prequels. The beginning was the most interesting to me and kind of falter towards the end.
At least the new characters are interesting. Although I'm somewhat disappointed that Poe was underutilized since he's my favorite amongst the three. I hope they'd use him a lot more in the sequels.
It kills me on the inside that the Solo lineage ends with this douchebag with anger management problem. I hope Rey is actually their daughter too although my guess is they'd go for niece, making her Luke's daughter. So yeah, it'd either be brother vs. sister OR cousin vs. cousin.
Also, Rey definitely implied to have had Force training before this. I don't know how anyone could have missed this. The film wasn't exactly subtle about her running away from it the minute she's reminded of it. They even provided a flashback to boot.
At least the new characters are interesting. Although I'm somewhat disappointed that Poe was underutilized since he's my favorite amongst the three. I hope they'd use him a lot more in the sequels.
It kills me on the inside that the Solo lineage ends with this douchebag with anger management problem. I hope Rey is actually their daughter too although my guess is they'd go for niece, making her Luke's daughter. So yeah, it'd either be brother vs. sister OR cousin vs. cousin.
Also, Rey definitely implied to have had Force training before this. I don't know how anyone could have missed this. The film wasn't exactly subtle about her running away from it the minute she's reminded of it. They even provided a flashback to boot.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Aftermath covers this,
FO falls back on outer rim. Mon Mothma doesn't want to destroy them but to create a peace agreement.
She then cuts 90% of the Republic military and ends the controlling powers of the Supreme Chancellor that Palpatine was given pre-Empire that she then inherited as the leader of the Rebels then the New Republic.
Right..."remnants". The Resistance feels more like the remnant in this.
I really hated how Leia basically dumb down the conflicts into "Oh yeah, it used to be Sith and Empire, now it's First Order because reasons."
Fuck that.
Probably thought Finn had something to do with the guys that just attacked and tried to rob her.
Given the place that they're on she probably assumed the worst.
Good points. I suppose Lucas felt much more comfortable establishing new things in the universe, since he felt ownership over it. A new director who grew up as a fan of the franchise might feel uncomfortable with it, opting instead to simply pay homage to the originals.
Napalm_Frank
Member
I hope Episode 8 reveals that TFA was just part of S3 plan of simulating A New Hope to make another Luke.
Moff
Member
I think these are both entirely different cases.
first of all, the audience in episode 4 did not need to know about the senate, the movie would have worked perfectly fine even without that line. the setup was complete, there was an evil empire controlling the galaxy and rebels that fought it, period.
that's very different in episode7, the setup is so unclear that it is confusing.
is the republic in charge? who controls coruscant? is the first order the whole empire or only a faction of it? who controls more space? all of that is very unclear.
we do not need hours of talking in senate pods, but goddamn tell us what the state of the galaxy is.
and then alderaan: I think the reaction to alderaan was completely fine, we had leias and kenobis reaction. that was fine because alderaan was not very important.
hosni prime in episode VII however is apparently the new seat of the republic.
this is a massive event. the first order has won, that is a turning point. it needed a lot more reaction than alderaan, people need to talk about this, but they barely did, both sides hardly showed a reaction and possible consequences were not mentioned at all. and it's especially confusing because the movie did not introduce the state of the galaxy properly.
Blue Ninja
Member
I think you already need some kind of affinity with the Force to be able to use a Lightsaber, so Finn being force sensitive isn't too much of a stretch.
ClosingADoor
Member
As far as I understood, you have the First Order, Republic and Resistance. The First Order and Republic are in some kind of cease fire a bit and control parts of the galaxy. The Resistance fights against The First Order, with secret backing from the Republic.
Both Republic and First Order are not in an all out war, probably since they both don't have the capability to destroy each other fully (and for movie reasons to have it all a little small scale and in a nice package). That chances with the new super weapon, so the First Order goes on the attack. Republic is unaware of what the hell is going on, while the Resistance does and goes to attack it.
You don't.
I liked the movie a lot, I can easily get past most of the issues because the character and dialogues are amazing. Kylo, Rey, Finn, Poe are all very strong and appealing, and I want to see more of them.
But, one thing that I found really jarring is the complete lack of emotional involvement and impact from the destruction of the republic planets: it doesn't affect any of the characters. It could've been a warning shot on an empty moon it would've had the same effect on the story.
It illustrate how much the political climate is so badly exposed in the movie. You don't know or understand why there's an empire and a resistance with the republic around, and why the empire (first order) is just as powerful as the last one.
It doesn't negatively affect the character stories (which are very appealing and are the real drive here), but it's confusing when you think about it and how little to nothing is explained.
But, one thing that I found really jarring is the complete lack of emotional involvement and impact from the destruction of the republic planets: it doesn't affect any of the characters. It could've been a warning shot on an empty moon it would've had the same effect on the story.
It illustrate how much the political climate is so badly exposed in the movie. You don't know or understand why there's an empire and a resistance with the republic around, and why the empire (first order) is just as powerful as the last one.
It doesn't negatively affect the character stories (which are very appealing and are the real drive here), but it's confusing when you think about it and how little to nothing is explained.
FutureZombie
Banned
The best new character was BB-8. You're all sleeping on him.
Honestly why they didn't just use the Lightsaber as a hook I don't know. A simple scene of Rey walking into the bunker with the saber at her side (hell she could even have offered it to Leia as she's the only relative to Luke there although it would have required some more screen time with Carrie Fisher), R2D2 then awakening.
You could have even had a BB8 getting a zap from R2D2 for getting too close (to indicate that R2 still has some awareness of his surroundings) earlier with C3P0 explaining something like "How Rude! Come away from there BB8, R2D2 has been in low power mode since Master Skywalkers disappearance and doesn't want to be disturbed. It's done nothing for his manners!"
Anyone can use them. It's been shown many times in films, books and comics that an ordinary, non-force sensitive person could wield one.
However, what makes a lightsaber effective is a Jedi's superhuman reflexes. Without it, you're just holding a sword.
I thought the same, but I feel like that's for the better, given how they were writing him. I HATED nearly every line he had. He was cocky but not in a Star Wars-kinda way, but rather more of a millennial arrogance. Nearly all the characters besides Rey played the movie in a sort of "hey, look at me, I'm in a new Star Wars movie" kind of way.
I attribute that to JJ. And that's my biggest problem with the movie. It never felt like a Star Wars movie, the way his Star Trek didn't feel like a Star Trek movie either. And before anyone says "well, what did you expect, Lucas wasn't directing", although hebdid four of the six movies, two of the best were directed by different people (ESB, ROTJ).
I really feel like JJ was brought in to just get it done by a date, and by reports of who initially turned it down, seems like he was the only one willing to do so, and by committee. It was like a Ratner job. And I feel like that hurt the movie in several ways:
1. Casting. Just like in JJ's other movies like MI3 and Star Trek, he tends to cast eiher twenty somethings or seventy somethings, but not in between. How the whole cast of the Enterprise, or the IMF is full of kids who look like they just graduated college, it felt the same here. Hux especially looked like a kid dressed up in an Emperial officer costume. And then all the sages, foils and follies are the geriatric ward (see Nimoy).
2. Score. Man, it's been a LONG time since a Williams score has been so unmemorable. What a disappointment. He did mention that he had to move the recording from London to LA because of JJ's editing style, and I feel like there's another reason where JJ hurt the movie. He just couldn't collaborate with Williams the way Lucas or Spielberg can.
3. Story. I'd love to imagine what the movie would have been had they stuck with Arndt. But I could bet it wouldn't be such a blatant remake of ANH with so many forced cameos and throwbacks. And this ultimately is where I think Lucas had his differences when he said they mad a movie for the fans. Years from now it will be the Star Wars everyone wanted but not the one we deserved. And there was so many lines I felt broke the fourth wall, in that the characters were speaking what the audience was thinking.
As hard as I'm being on the film, ultimately I think it was fun and entertaining, but Episode VIII will be more interesting to see where they go, how they build or diverge from this initial vision.
Oh, and I miss Yoda. Someone said he was in Rey's vision, but I missed it. Having him not in the movie really drove home how much he's an important part of Star Wars' legacy.
Not canon anymore.
Sanctuary
Member
This is what bothered me a lot with the movie. Other people in this thread seem to think that there's nothing special about a lightsaber in regards to wielding one, yet it's been established over decades that it takes not only some serious training with the weapon to use it effectively, but also force training (and I'm not talking about just to be able to deflect blaster shots either). Finn might have been flailing with it, but even then he was able to do more with it than he should have been able to. People talk about how Luke was able to deflect drone shots in ANH with little training, but he still had training, and we don't know exactly how much time had passed. Time was really sketchy in the original trilogy.
Also, a minor gripe; the trailers make it look as though Finn is going to be one of two new jedi in this movie. Nope, just some random dude swinging around a lightsaber.
Late, but I'd say one connection is the depiction of Kylo Ren and his connection to Vader.
His character is much like a better version of Episode III Anakin, and I feel that is what he is tapping into. He's petulant, aggressive, and irrational.
Also all of the flags at the bar they met Maz at.
AzureRonin
Member
Having one scene in the galactic Senate describing the relationship between the order, the republic, and the resistance would've served to explain the story and create an emotional impact upon its destruction.
cereal_killerxx
Junior Member
I only have 3 complaints with the movie:
1. The Han Solo death was too obvious.
2. How come Leia wasn't a Jedi master? Seemed like a missed opportunity to me.
3. Rey was a badass at the end with no training. Huh?
1. The Han Solo death was too obvious.
2. How come Leia wasn't a Jedi master? Seemed like a missed opportunity to me.
3. Rey was a badass at the end with no training. Huh?
WadiumArcadium
Member
Grievous couldn't use the force but he's pretty proficient with a lightsaber or several.
1) Max von Sydow plays the village elder at the start of the movie (Lor).
2) Lor gave Poe the missing map component to find Luke.
3) When Rey touched the lightsaber in the cantina, she had a flashback of her "parents" leaving her. Lor was the man holding her hand telling her "let's go." I recognized Max's voice.
4) Thus, Lor was handed Rey and the only way to find Luke. Lor also knew a lot about the force in his early conversation with Poe, a conversation that was cut off after the map exchange due to Trooper invasion.
Put those together, and it seems plausible that Luke dropped Rey off with Lor, and provided a way for her to find him when the time was right. Perhaps Lor was going to tell Poe about Rey, until their conversation ended abruptly.
Not sure if Rey sprung from Luke or Leia, I can see that going both ways. I'd like to find out Luke's relationship with Lor, they must have had some connection.
2) Lor gave Poe the missing map component to find Luke.
3) When Rey touched the lightsaber in the cantina, she had a flashback of her "parents" leaving her. Lor was the man holding her hand telling her "let's go." I recognized Max's voice.
4) Thus, Lor was handed Rey and the only way to find Luke. Lor also knew a lot about the force in his early conversation with Poe, a conversation that was cut off after the map exchange due to Trooper invasion.
Put those together, and it seems plausible that Luke dropped Rey off with Lor, and provided a way for her to find him when the time was right. Perhaps Lor was going to tell Poe about Rey, until their conversation ended abruptly.
Not sure if Rey sprung from Luke or Leia, I can see that going both ways. I'd like to find out Luke's relationship with Lor, they must have had some connection.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Exactly. Dude is an incredibly powerful Force user (stopping that blaster shot!) but very insecure leading him to overcompensate. Interesting dynamic.
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