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[Sesuadra]

Chances are Ren and Snoke put a hurting on Rey and the others in the next film (death of Luke seems narratively likely), before the Jedis, uh, return in the third.

They're clearly setting it up so that Ren, once "properly trained" by Snoke, will wreak havoc, since he got beat up pretty nicely in this one.

maybe he will even need his breathing mask now >>

god I hope luke won't die..at least until the last movie? But I rather have him stay for a while..or he should get a stand alone movie where they show his search for the first jedi temple. now that would be something.

 

[LegalEagleMike]

Because Luke isn't particularly skilled or overcame any sort of great odds.

great shot kid that was one in a dozen!

 

[HoJu]

She saved the day like 5 times.

oh yeah. they'll probably explain her being overpowered in the next one. something about mitochlorians being off the charts.

 

[Cybit]

Rey comes across as less of a Mary Sue than Luke did in the OT, honestly.

How the hell is Rey a Mary Sue but Luke in Star Wars '77 isn't?

Luke in '77 is something of one, but the Falcon scenes (where she magically knows how to fix everything) are what sort of push it over the edge in terms of Luke vs Rey. Some of the cuts hurt Rey though - they don't establish that she's any kind of pilot. But knowing how to magically repair the Falcon? <_< >_>

 

[jelly]

I haven't seen the video you are talking about and I definitely felt that way leaving the theatre, I was pretty unsatisfied with how powerful she was and how good she was at literally everything she did. I get that some users are extremely adept with the force but that's just not satifying to me to have some insanely powerful character out of nowhere, it feels more earned when there is a buildup of power over time. Why is she even going to train with Luke now? She clearly doesn't need him.

edit: random but Driver beating his chest during the fight was such a great character moment, loved that.

Maybe her undoing is being so powerful and it's possible she was trained to a point then started to remember again.

 

[Sanjuro]

great shot kid that was one in a dozen!

I call it luck!

The point is his character really isn't particularly dominant at anything. During the duration of the film, it's about how he works as a team moving from objective to objective.

 

[MMarston]

great shot kid that was one in a million!

fixed, which also furthers the Gary Stu argument.


Though, by comparison, that was kinda the only thing Luke did phenomenal in that film. Everything else he did needed a lot of help.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Luke was kind of a wimp to begin with. Rey seems much more able to handle herself physically before she figures out she can use the force than Luke could. Rey is some bad ass scavenger survivalist. Luke was a goody two shoe mommas boy.

 

[Jest Chillin]

If Ren was emotionally wounded by killing Han AND he knows about punching himself to distract from pain, he should've been emotionally punching himself to distract from emotional pain. Instead he just doesn't acknowledge it at all. All the pieces were there but that fight just doesn't come together in a satisfying way.

Do Rey or Finn even confront him about Han during the fight? Does anybody even say Han's name after he dies...?

Ren is a petulant child who wants power and wants it now. He struggles with his desire for strength through the Darkside and his innate afinity towards the Lightside. He's impatient and undiscplined. Absolutely nothing about his character suggests he's any good at all at self reflection and understanding.

He's an emotional wreck without the ability to understand why he's an emotional wreck. He's just a fucked up kid with Force powers.

Luke in no way picked stuff up as fast as she did. He had trouble even pulling a lightsaber to him at the beginning of ESB.

Luke wasn't anywhere near as open to the abilities of The Force as Rey is. He doubted himself, his Masters and The Force all the way until RotJ. Rey is much closer to young Anakin in that she accepts her Force ability much more easily and embraces it, allowing her to acclimate to it faster than Luke did.

 

[Jarmel]

He did, however, fly a spaceship going at a million mph down the Death Star trench and nailed a moving precision shot into a 2 meter wide hole with no computer targeting assistance in one try, all because of the Force. Being able to wield a lightsaber well for a few minutes seems downright pedestrian in comparison.

This can't be stressed enough. The Force is not just some impersonal energy source that some people can tap into to make them jump around and swing laser swords, it is mystical space magic.

Which Luke says was not much different than shooting womp rats back home on his T-16.

 

[Brakke]

How many different ways are you going to keep asking the same question?

When does VIII come out lol.

Well said. Maybe I'm not remembering well enough but was anyone really afraid of this guy? Poe, Hux, even Rey were never like in awe of his presence, and I loved that. Ren leaned way too heavily on his insane force powers to build a reputation but nobody was buying it.

Those 'troopers in the corridor when Ren is throwing a fit maybe? They don't have faces so it's unclear if they turn away in abject terror or in derisive disdain for his petulance.

 

[Disheveled_Zen]

I'm wondering if when Kylo was rummaging around in Rey's mind, he didn't inadvertently break some of the locks she may have had on her memories. The interogation scene seems to be the start of her powers, would be interesting if Kylo was the cause of her becoming herself again.

 

[Sanjuro]

fixed, which also furthers the Gary Stu argument.


Though, by comparison, that was kinda the only thing Luke did phenomenal in that film. Everything else he did needed a lot of help.

Are you Leia'ing Han's involvement in this!?

 

[Branduil]

How the hell is Rey a Mary Sue but Luke in Star Wars '77 isn't?

Because Luke isn't a girl with cooties.

 

[injurai]

Because Luke isn't particularly skilled or overcame any sort of great odds.

Luke had moments of doubt that clouded his use of the force. But he was pretty gungho when it came to fighting, both with blasters and the lightsaber.

One difference is Luke had Ben, who demonstrated the force. Luke felt doubt because he was in the presence of someone very wise. So far Rey has only been reinforced with confidence in walking the path of the force. By Han, by Maz, by her visions from Ben. She got to explore force in confidence. That was always the message that Yoda had to convey to Luke.

Luke was confident in just about everything, other than wielding this mystical power. He was a natural skeptic, Rey is a believer.

 

[MMarston]

Luke was kind of a wimp to begin with. Rey seems much more able to handle herself physically before she figures out she can use the force than Luke could. Rey is some bad ass scavenger survivalist. Luke was a goody two shoe mommas boy.

As someone pointed out earlier, I expect things to go "Hard Mode" on her in the next film.


Also, it's Rian Johsnon, so that could go to interesting places.

 

[pringles]

Luke in '77 is something of one, but the Falcon scenes (where she magically knows how to fix everything) are what sort of push it over the edge in terms of Luke vs Rey. Some of the cuts hurt Rey though - they don't establish that she's any kind of pilot. But knowing how to magically repair the Falcon? <_< >_>

Skilled with mechanical stuff = "magically knows"

They establish she's been living in broken down AT-AT and scavengening technical gadgets and repairing stuff.
Not a stretch she can fix an old spaceship, it's hardly state-of-the-art equipment.

 

[Sesuadra]

Luke was kind of a wimp to begin with. Rey seems much more able to handle herself physically before she figures out she can use the force than Luke could. Rey is some bad ass scavenger survivalist. Luke was a goody two shoe mommas boy.

^this

Rey lived alone on a planet, having to deal with the lowest of the low, being a scavenger searching in old spaceships for parts to sell..of course if you did that all your life and you have nothing else to do then to learn about myths or tech you will get good at it.

Luke had moments of doubt that clouded his use of the force. But he was pretty gungho when it came to fighting, both with blasters and the lightsaber.

One difference is Luke had Ben, who demonstrated the force. Luke felt doubt because he was in the presence of someone very wise. So far Rey has only been reinforced with confidence in walking the path of the force. By Han, by Maz, by her visions from Ben. She got to explore force in confidence. That was always the message that Yoda had to convey to Luke.

Luke was confident in just about everything, other than wielding this mystical power. He was a natural skeptic, Rey is a believer.

I always had the feeling that Rey has hope..where Luke only had doubt about himself.

 

[James93]

For real though I'm not a doctor but I'm not entirely sure why beating the shit out of your own fairly serious wound is going to help you stay in the fight

Adderline and intimidation

 

[rekameohs]

Luke was kind of a wimp to begin with. Rey seems much more able to handle herself physically before she figures out she can use the force than Luke could. Rey is some bad ass scavenger survivalist. Luke was a goody two shoe mommas boy.

Which, honestly makes the Gary Stu argument stronger since he's a loser/nobody who miraculously just so happens to save the entire galaxy by being better than everyone else at what they were trained to do in the Death Star attack, where Rey was already characterized as competent from the start.

To clarify, I think they're both fine.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Chances are Ren and Snoke put a hurting on Rey and the others in the next film (death of Luke seems narratively likely), before the Jedis, uh, return in the third.

They're clearly setting it up so that Ren, once "properly trained" by Snoke, will wreak havoc, since he got beat up pretty nicely in this one.

The Ren thing was a problem for me, because Driver was so excellent in the role, but it is beyond that. Her fixing things in the Falcon the first time she was aboard that surprised even Solo. Then the entire her pulling mind tricks the first time she tried. It was just way, WAY overdone.

Comparing her to Luke is silly because Luke did not 1v1 Vader the first time they met after never holding a lightsaber, close his eyes and utter "the force", then beat the crap out of him.

 

[MattyG]

Luke in '77 is something of one, but the Falcon scenes (where she magically knows how to fix everything) are what sort of push it over the edge in terms of Luke vs Rey. Some of the cuts hurt Rey though - they don't establish that she's any kind of pilot. But knowing how to magically repair the Falcon? <_< >_>

Wasn't the guy who owned it/the scrapyard who she was left with? I figured she knew how to fix it because it'd been in the scrapyard for a while and she'd been in there and knew about the ships there. Like, she obviously knew at least a bit about it because she said "it's garbage" and knew about part repairs/changes that had been made to it. It's not like that was her first time seeing the thing.

 

[kingocfs]

His own men - the First Order officers and stormtroopers.

I guess? But even that moment when he was freaking out after seeing that Rey escaped the dentist's chair, the two storm troopers backing away in the hall, it was more funny than anything else. Got a good laugh from the audience in the theater. IDK just didn't feel to me like everyone was buying into what he had to offer, but like I said I kind of liked that about his character. And when it came to rallying the troops and showing off the weapon, it was all Hux.

Just trying to forge Vader's persona to fool himself into thinking someone is going to be keeping his melted mask on a shrine some day. IDK if Ren survives much longer.

 

[LegalEagleMike]

fixed, which also furthers the Gary Stu argument.


Though, by comparison, that was kinda the only thing Luke did phenomenal in that film. Everything else he did needed a lot of help.

lol u didnt need to fix it, i was being sarcastic to counter his point.

 

[jackdoe]

Rey probably had some Jedi training as a child and wasn't raised to be a moisture farmer. It's not a big deal that she can do what she does in the movie.

 

[E the Shaggy]

I really dug it, but man I really agree on Max Landis' take that Rey is a Mary Sue.

She's an ace pilot/brilliant mechanic/Master Jedi/etc etc

 

[Jest Chillin]

Which Luke says was not much different than shooting womp rats back home on his T-16.

No. He says the size of the target is the same size as womp rats. He's not intimidated by the small target. Making the actual shot while speeding through a trench with TIE's shooting at you and blowing up your allies is nothing at all like shooting womp rats on Tatooine.

 

[jelly]

The Ren thing was a problem for me, because Driver was so excellent in the role, but it is beyond that. Her fixing things in the Falcon the first time she was aboard that surprised even Solo. Then the entire her pulling mind tricks the first time she tried. It was just way, WAY overdone.

We don't know what her background is though. What if she was trained before, and reading Kylo's mind, it would be acceptable right ?

It was the second time

 

[WadiumArcadium]

IDK if Ren survives much longer.

He's going to be around until IX at least. I can't see them killing him off before the end of the trilogy.

 

[Interfectum]

Kylo and Solo scene was one of the best scenes in any Star Wars. Really well done.

 

[BravesCountry]

As someone pointed out earlier, I expect things to go "Hard Mode" on her in the next film.


Also, it's Rian Johsnon, so that could go to interesting places.

Definitely expecting Rian to make it interesting, pretty excited about that.

 

[Dead]

So some random thought about this movie...

- It's so fitting that Kylo Ren is a devout follower of his grandfather, in the context of the prequels. He is petulant, angry, over confident... this dude is 100% the descendant of Hayden Christensen's Anakin Skywalker.

- Speaking of Kylo, they actually cut the bit in the movie where he slams his foot down and unleashes his saber during the fight with Finn. I could not believe it.

- Was pretty annoyed at how lazy the script was. The Falcon just happened to be on that planet? With everything else happening there? Maz the Cantina owner also just happens to own a storeroom of antiques including Luke's saber? It's a bit too much.

- I don't agree that this movie feels like the OT. It doesn't, beyond superficial reasons. That's not necessarily bad though, as it should have it's own identity. That being said, once it gets going, its just too much. Action to action to action. I feel there is far too little time for the characters to breathe so that we can really get to know them better, could have used an extra 10 or 15 minutes.

- I don't feel as though they didn't properly establish the state of the universe as well as they could have. There's a new Republic, yet there's a resistance? I mean, doesn't resistance imply they are fighting the people who are in power? Rather than another faction trying to regain power? Again, just a lazy script.

- I love Rey, she is awesome and was immediately endearing as a character. I don't think she just out of nowhere got force powers though. I think she had them before but her abilities were locked away when she was hidden on Jakku. I think story wise she should be Luke's daughter, but I feel they are going for a twist where everyone expects that, but turns out she isn't. I guess we'll see.

- The design for Snoke is a huge disappointment. I don't feel like the design belongs in this universe, and was wishing for something more esoteric. A missed opportunity for showcasing something new and not seen before.

- For all the wanking about practical effects, the movie still has tons of CG, and honestly some of the practical effects should have been CG. That one alien horse thing that the alien who caught BB8 was riding looked and moved worse than anything in the OT.

- Ending was perfect and seeing Luke there, wearing traditional Jedi robes was amazing. Makes one truly exited for Episode 8.


- Lastly, this might just be a form of confirmation bias, but I couldn't help but feel in the back of my mind that I was watching what someone else's vision for Episode 7 was, rather than the true Episode 7.

 

[MMarston]

Watch this happen in Episode 8.

Luke: "Your mother was etc etc"

Rey: "What about my father."

Luke: "You had no father."

Spoiler

did u rike it

 

[Sanjuro]

Luke had moments of doubt that clouded his use of the force. But he was pretty gungho when it came to fighting, both with blasters and the lightsaber.

One difference is Luke had Ben, who demonstrated the force. Luke felt doubt because he was in the presence of someone very wise. So far Rey has only been reinforced with confidence in walking the path of the force. By Han, by Maz, by her visions from Ben. She got to explore force in confidence. That was always the message that Yoda had to convey to Luke.

Luke was confident in just about everything, other than wielding this mystical power. He was a natural skeptic, Rey is a believer.

For me the original films are broken down for Luke as,

IV - I'm no longer on a planet full of sand!
V - I'm a fucking idiot. I'm a fucking idiot. Fucking idiot. Fucking idiot.
VI - I constructed a lightsaber, now I'm a boss who does boss things.

That structure is why old fans were so passionate about seeing Luke again, and where these characters are. His progression in the original films is fantastic.

I liked Rey. I didn't mind her abilities as I'm sure there will be more to reveal, but she is in a different place than Luke from when we met him.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Kylo and Solo scene was one of the best scenes in any Star Wars. Really well done.

Every scene Driver was in was excellent. He was the highlight of the movie for sure.

 

[neoemonk]

I recall reading/seeing something a while back where Harrison Ford had said something along the lines of he wasn't all that interested in it and didn't want to really do a bunch more movies. That kinda told me that he probably was just in this one to finish it out and he'd be the one who got killed.

Unless I've imagined all of this.

I've actively avoided as much as possible about the movie for a while so that I could be surprised, although when they killed him I assumed he didn't want to be in the movies after this.

And to another poster's point, I think if Rey does have a "weakness" it's self-deception, waiting for a family she knew inside was never going to come back. Maybe a not a glaring weakness but certainly a character flaw.

 

[Disheveled_Zen]

For real though I'm not a doctor but I'm not entirely sure why beating the shit out of your own fairly serious wound is going to help you stay in the fight

He was feeding off it most likely. Feeding off pain, fear, anger, etc are all pillars of the dark side.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

He's going to be around until IX at least. I can't see them killing him off before the end of the trilogy.

I can see him turning good and carrying on Han's name proudly. I dont think they want to wipe out Solos bloodline.

I hope not though. I want Kylo to be pure badness.

 

[Ghostmaster]

The Ren thing was a problem for me, because Driver was so excellent in the role, but it is beyond that. Her fixing things in the Falcon the first time she was aboard that surprised even Solo. Then the entire her pulling mind tricks the first time she tried. It was just way, WAY overdone.

Comparing her to Luke is silly because Luke did not 1v1 Vader the first time they met after never holding a lightsaber, close his eyes and utter "the force", then beat the crap out of him.

Ren is nowhere near as strong as Vader, come on guys.
Vader was the chosen one who was trained during the glory days of the jedi, he was probably even stronger than the emperor just not as cunning.

Ren is a petulant child who never completed his training and is still unsure of his goals.

 

[jman2050]

On a completely different note, I can't be the only one having trouble parsing certain posts correctly because of confusing 'Ren' for 'Rey' and vice versa, right?

 

[DMczaf]

I noticed in my second viewing you can see a single tear roll down Finn's cheek when Rey kisses him on the forehead and calls him "friend".

 

[MMarston]

On a completely different note, I can't be the only one having trouble parsing certain posts correctly because of confusing 'Ren' for 'Rey' and vice versa, right?

technically, everyone should be saying Kylo anyway

 

[Briarios]

When you have only yourself to rely on for survival, you tend to become a jack of all trades. Throw in her force abilities, it's not surprising Rey is more competent than Luke at the same point. He was just a farm boy with a relatively protected upbringing ... Rey had it rough.

Plus, Ren gave her some unintentional lessons through his torture of her. So, yeah, I buy that she's competent.

 

[Sesuadra]

in the fight luke against vader in ESB the light was mostly red.
in the fight rey against ren the light was mostly dark blue. sorry if I'm reaching here but I really like how both colours represent who would win in the end >>..

 

[Miracle]

Because Luke isn't particularly skilled or overcame any sort of great odds.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=o2we_B6hDrY

Remember this? Do you think THIS is not overcoming the odds? Luke "using the force" to finding a hole he can't actually see with his eyes, without using the radar, makes a "perfect shot" to that hole and blowing up the entire Death Star while being able to escape a few tie fighters including one of them being flown by his father who is known to be a great pilot himself?

Luke overcame some bullshit as well you know.

 

[rekameohs]

George named the hero of his movie "Luke S." ffs. Of course's he's gonna be a Sue. And you know what, that character turned out fine, didn't he?

 

[foxtrot3d]

I really hope all these Mary Sue feelings are genuine and not just coming from that one video Max Landis put up about her.

People have been saying this in the thread as soon as the movie came out, it's not like its a hard to miss observation.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=o2we_B6hDrY

Remember this? Do you think THIS is not overcoming the odds? Luke "using the force" to finding a hole he can't actually see with his eyes, without using the radar, makes a "perfect shot" to that hole and blowing up the entire Death Star while being able to escape a few tie fighters including one of them being flown by his father who is known to be a great pilot himself?

Luke overcame some bullshit as well you know.

Well, you're right in that Luke definitely overcame great odds but he was definitely not a Mary Sue.

 

[jelly]

I really dug it, but man I really agree on Max Landis' take that Rey is a Mary Sue.

She's an ace pilot/brilliant mechanic/Master Jedi/etc etc

Scavenger, survivor, makes sense. Pilot is probably the only one that's perhaps a bit odd if she has never left the planet but she was crashing the Falcon like no other but learned fast and the force helps.

She did get caught though.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

She's not a representation of the author's self-insertion wish fullfillment though.

 

[Simo]

"the seduction of the Light"...so good. lol

Also when you see Snoke for the first time in that giant cavernous chamber with the throne, I dug it. One of the many holy shit moments I uttered during the screening. lol