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[BarringGaffner]

Wounded or not, I would be ok with Ren being beaten in the final battle. For me the wound doesn't change anything.

It's pretty simple- when people are afraid of Ren, he is powerful. When they aren't, he is not.

Also, he has force powers, but no natural talent.

 

[tattooed_dwarf]

In my mind she was trying to resist torture and discovered the ability when he was tapping into her mind. She learned all her powers so far through observing Kylo and mimicking him.

Exactly. I feel like people don't pay attention and want exposition everywhere.

 

[TheOctodad]

Thread moves so fast..
Was there ever a sound theory why Anakin wouldn't return as force ghost in front of Kylo and tell him the truth?
He was capable of doing so in ROTJ and now his grandson is praying to his burned up mask he left behind, so what prevents him from appearing and clearing things up?

It's implied it's a short term thing. It's been 30 years, they probably moved on.

 

[Daingurse]

But why hasn't he done that already before his grandson killed his daughter's husband?
Is he currently busy in the after-life?

I don't know man. Surprised it didn't happen in this movie in-fact.

 

[jelly]

Thread moves so fast..
Was there ever a sound theory why Anakin wouldn't return as force ghost in front of Kylo and tell him the truth?
He was capable of doing so in ROTJ and now his grandson is praying to his burned up mask he left behind, so what prevents him from appearing and clearing things up?

Maybe the Dark Side can't see them or something. I think it would ruin the plot to be honest, just one of those film things you ignore for the sake of having a good film.

 

[golem]

It's an intentional contrast but it's always hard for me to take seriously those scenes when some high-ranking official starts bossing around and berating a dude so powerful he can literally fling you against a wall or choke you to death with his mind.

I know it's making some commentary about the influence of people in political power or whatnot, and their general arrogance (like the dude who mocked Vader about the Force), but it can come off as a bit silly when watching it unfold.

The first order believes in rule of law (their law at least), so ranks and following orders by the book, etc is important to them

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

The "Kylo lost because he's emotionally unstable" angle isn't satisfying either. In Jedi, Luke comes against Vader, is emotionally unstable as fuck, and that drives him to beat Vader's shit to pieces in a berserker rage. But what is the character of Kylo's instability? It's one thing if he fails because he's horrified by the violence he just did to Han, then he should lose the fight because he hesitates, showing mercy or at least reluctance to kill.

If Kylo's too distraught or distracted to fight then why does he even pick the fight. So he loses because hubris?

The beginning of the movie is so much better than the end. When Finn is distraught and fucked up and scared, dude goes on tilt big time and the camera and performance and script give his anxiety time to breath. Kyle goes on tilt and... beats his chest a couple times I guess?

Luke wasn't emotionally unstable as fuck though, he has one outburst of rage and that's it and overpowered Vader, there was no internal conflict within Luke like there clearly is with Kylo Ren.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

That's why the only way it makes sense is Rey is a force god. Greater than Anakin or Luke or Sheev. Which will be just silly because what purpose does she serve in the universe to have such innate force power that she needs no training.

I dunno though, the movie consistently makes it seem like she's innately more powerful than he is, maybe because her mind and conscience are clear, maybe becase of natural ability. I don't think it requires a suspension of disbelief greater than "she's stronger in the force, he's better trained but injured" to accept that fight. We have no idea how much training Kylo Ren has had, we have no idea where they are going with Rey necessarily.

 

[JJDubz]

For real though I'm not a doctor but I'm not entirely sure why beating the shit out of your own fairly serious wound is going to help you stay in the fight

I don't know. I've had minor cramps pop up in sport, and my natural response was to try to pound out the muscle pain.

Can't see it helping with a blaster wound, though. It's hard to find an in-universe explanation, with some being canon and some not being canon, but in other media, pain is as important as rage for some sith lords.

 

[Chiggs]

The issue is with how she flicks the baddass switch.

This is exactly it. I can see people are getting really sensitive about this film. :/

 

[Cybit]

He might still be, but he doesn't know it.

I mean, he handheld that lightsaber pretty well for a his second fight against a trained user.

Look; I'm not a big representation person, I'm a big "pick the best people for the role" - but they freaking knocked it out of the park with Boyega and Ridley. Boyega's moment is perfect (IMO) in every way - and I think he should be FS. Even the super subtle expressions were like (pardon my language) "I will fucking kill you if you even touch her you asshole. You want some? Come get some."

I also love that they made him at least decently competent against a wounded Ren. Finn is a trained from birth warrior who has (from earlier sequences) under went stormtrooper melee combat training. My foil/saber/rapier skills didn't 100% translate over to kendo, but they sure as hell helped.

 

[Mega]

The whole conceit that Kylo Ren is a petulent Darth Vader wannabe was quite well-done, from the way he tries to intimidate and influence both underlings and political equals alike through force (rather than persuasion like Palpatine), to the black flowing robes and the comically unnecessary breathing mask.

There's actually some humor there, intentional I have to imagine.

I'm betting he ditches the mask and proudly shows off his scars he earned from once being an idiot novice. Prime Kylo Ren will be very different.

 

[MMarston]

But why hasn't he done that already before his grandson killed his daughter's husband?
Is he currently busy in the after-life?

hey man, he's got like 30 years of missed-out incredibly hammy Padme romance to catch up on

 

[Skyrim]

For real though I'm not a doctor but I'm not entirely sure why beating the shit out of your own fairly serious wound is going to help you stay in the fight

I thought by beating on it is him trying give himself adrenaline

Push through the pain

 

[crisdecuba]

Might helped him stay conscious/alert by focusing on the pain. That bowcaster bolt frankly fucked him up.

Yup.

 

[KorrZ]

But why do you want that?

Kylo is an interesting character because he idolises one of the most powerful force users to ever exist, one of the few masters of both Light and Dark. But more than just looking up to Vader, he wants to be Vader.

And he's not, not even close. He's some fucked up kid struggling with his inner self, not fully trained in either the light or the dark, a twisted container of potential and rage.

Worse? He knows it. He throws tantrums, he gets disrespected, he fucks up. He's not Vader, he knows it, everyone else knows it, and it constantly eats at him.

People call this film a rehash of A New Hope or whatever, but the best direct comparison which shows off this as a falsehood is between Vader and Ren.

I get that whole characterization, I do. I just think it would have been more effective if the fight had gone on like it did, Rey could have her "Force Awakening" moment and start taking the upper hand in the fight, you could visibly see the distress in Ren's eyes but rather than having Rey beat him flat out, it should have had the planet split earlier and separate them.

That way you could ultimately still show that Rey was powerful, that Kylo had completely underestimated her and overestimated himself, yet still left it somewhat undecided instead of removing some of the stakes and tension for the next movie. I mean, are we really going to be worrying about Rey v.s. Ren next movie now that she's already whooped him and is going to actually be trained next time?

 

[Jest Chillin]

For real though I'm not a doctor but I'm not entirely sure why beating the shit out of your own fairly serious wound is going to help you stay in the fight

Darkside ideology. Pain brings Anger and Anger brings Strength through the Darkside.

 

[injurai]

If you don't like appeals to precedent you must've hated this movie lmao.

There is a difference between plot intentionally invoking convention, and you "not buying" a character's depiction because it it doesn't conform to an ultimate realization of what a Jedi could be. Especially when the president that was set is for specific individuals, not anyone that touches the force. There is no reason for Ren to be capable beyond his limitations solely because others have usurped him. It's like you are deny the very character traits that he is written to be.

 

[TheOctodad]

Might helped him stay conscious/alert by focusing on the pain. That bowcaster bolt frankly fucked him up.

He said people in the military did it to keep the brain from focusing on the pain in that area.

 

[Sanjuro]

Luke wasn't emotionally unstable as fuck though, he has one outburst of rage and that's it and overpowered Vader, there was no internal conflict within Luke like there clearly is with Kylo Ren.

Luke was just an impatient idiot when it came down to his lack of skills.

 

[Brakke]

If Ren was emotionally wounded by killing Han AND he knows about punching himself to distract from pain, he should've been emotionally punching himself to distract from emotional pain. Instead he just doesn't acknowledge it at all. All the pieces were there but that fight just doesn't come together in a satisfying way.

Do Rey or Finn even confront him about Han during the fight? Does anybody even say Han's name after he dies...?

 

[TUSR]

For real though I'm not a doctor but I'm not entirely sure why beating the shit out of your own fairly serious wound is going to help you stay in the fight

interneurons or some shit

 

[VASPER]

Thread moves so fast..
Was there ever a sound theory why Anakin wouldn't return as force ghost in front of Kylo and tell him the truth?
He was capable of doing so in ROTJ and now his grandson is praying to his burned up mask he left behind, so what prevents him from appearing and clearing things up?

What if only light jedi can see ghost jedi? Like being on the dark side limits certain powers that light side can utilize easily.

 

[HoJu]

Rei ruined the movie for me. The Mary Sue was way too strong with her.

Adam Driver was incredible though.

what does that mean

 

[Sesuadra]

The whole conceit that Kylo Ren is a petulent Darth Vader wannabe was quite well-done, from the way he tries to intimidate and influence both underlings and political equals alike through force (rather than persuasion like Palpatine), to the black flowing robes and the comically unnecessary breathing mask.

There's actually some humor there, intentional I have to imagine.

didn't han even say "you don't need the mask"? lol..so yes I was really well done.

 

[jelly]

My girlfriend after the movie asked me "Is Snoke the Emperor?" And I replied, "No. If the emperor came back to life in secret, he would not choose the name Snoke to hide his identity. That's not a name anyone chooses, that's a name you're born with and have to live with. Nobody would choose a name that stupid."

Then again, "Sheev."

Wasn't the name Sheev a recent revelation so Lucasfilm want to put a name to his face because he may actually be coming back?

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Thread moves so fast..
Was there ever a sound theory why Anakin wouldn't return as force ghost in front of Kylo and tell him the truth?
He was capable of doing so in ROTJ and now his grandson is praying to his burned up mask he left behind, so what prevents him from appearing and clearing things up?

Maybe force ghosts are a light side thing.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

Rey going to turn out to be Luke's daughter. Then it'll be explained with Dragon Ball Z references that she's naturally more inclined to the force like Goten and Trunks when they became super saiyans as children. Then Lucas will pop back in to take over directing for the remaining sequels and give everyone a scouter and make them super saiyan jedi.

 

[MMarston]

I really hope all these Mary Sue feelings are genuine and not just coming from that one video Max Landis put up about her.

 

[brandonh83]

I beat the shit out of a limb that has fallen asleep.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Thread moves so fast..
Was there ever a sound theory why Anakin wouldn't return as force ghost in front of Kylo and tell him the truth?
He was capable of doing so in ROTJ and now his grandson is praying to his burned up mask he left behind, so what prevents him from appearing and clearing things up?

There's an interview with Driver or someone floating around that says Kylo knows Vader went back to the light at the end, which is driving him even harder towards the dark side ("I will finish what you started"). Being turned back to the light is apparently his greatest fear.

 

[Nibel]

Finally saw it. These past two days have been hell.
Best Star Wars film since the 80s.

It's not flawless but I enjoyed it a ton.

J.J.

 

[kingocfs]

It's pretty simple- when people are afraid of Ren, he is powerful. When they aren't, he is not.

Also, he has force powers, but no natural talent.

Well said. Maybe I'm not remembering well enough but was anyone really afraid of this guy? Poe, Hux, even Rey were never like in awe of his presence, and I loved that. Ren leaned way too heavily on his insane force powers to build a reputation but nobody was buying it.

 

[Cybit]

For real though I'm not a doctor but I'm not entirely sure why beating the shit out of your own fairly serious wound is going to help you stay in the fight

Adrenaline. That was a super nice touch, IMO.

Luke was the exact same in the OT. He gunned down TIEs really well, killed Troopers left and right, flew an X-Wing like an expert in a major battle (his first) and the most impressive feat across all 7 films: he practically single-handed took out the Death Star.

I think this is all setup so we watch her get beat down really hard in the next movie.

Nah; Rey was super special Mary Sue (with the cuts) - but...

I can't judge an arc before seeing the arc.

This. I'll wait to see if they push the Mary Sue with her hard

Rei ruined the movie for me. The Mary Sue was way too strong with her.

Adam Driver was incredible though.

She was a super Mary Sue - but it's a sci-fi / fantasy movie in a genre that hasn't been the best to female protagonists and that needs to establish her quickly. I don't like it, but I'll get over it.

 

[-tetsuo-]

what does that mean

She saved the day like 5 times.

 

[tattooed_dwarf]

Luke in no way picked stuff up as fast as she did. He had trouble even pulling a lightsaber to him at the beginning of ESB.

Well maybe Rey is even stronger?

 

[Sesuadra]

Finally saw it. These past two days have been hell.
Best Star Wars film since the 80s.

It's not flawless but I enjoyed it a ton.

J.J.

welcome to the light side of the star wars threads.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I really hope all these Mary Sue feelings are genuine and not just coming from that one video Max Landis put up about her.

Rey comes across as less of a Mary Sue than Luke did in the OT, honestly.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Well said. Maybe I'm not remembering well enough but was anyone really afraid of this guy? Poe, Hux, even Rey were never like in awe of his presence, and I loved that. Ren leaned way too heavily on his insane force powers to build a reputation but nobody was buying it.

His own men - the First Order officers and stormtroopers.

 

[TheOctodad]

If Ren was emotionally wounded by killing Han AND he knows about punching himself to distract from pain, he should've been emotionally punching himself to distract from emotional pain. Instead he just doesn't acknowledge it at all. All the pieces were there but that fight just doesn't come together in a satisfying way.

Do Rey or Finn even confront him about Han during the fight? Does anybody even say Han's name after he dies...?

How many different ways are you going to keep asking the same question?

 

[MMarston]

There's an interview with Driver or someone floating around that says Kylo knows Vader went back to the light at the end, which is driving him even harder towards the dark side ("I will finish what you started"). Being turned back to the light is apparently his greatest fear.

I don't need friends! I only need the darkness! (<--cringe ahead)

 

[BravesCountry]

I really hope all these Mary Sue feelings are genuine and not just coming from that one video Max Landis put up about her.

I haven't seen the video you are talking about and I definitely felt that way leaving the theatre, I was pretty unsatisfied with how powerful she was and how good she was at literally everything she did. I get that some users are extremely adept with the force but that's just not satifying to me to have some insanely powerful character out of nowhere, it feels more earned when there is a buildup of power over time. Why is she even going to train with Luke now? She clearly doesn't need him.

edit: random but Driver beating his chest during the fight was such a great character moment, loved that.

 

[rekameohs]

How the hell is Rey a Mary Sue but Luke in Star Wars '77 isn't?

 

[Zeliard]

Rei ruined the movie for me. The Mary Sue was way too strong with her.

Adam Driver was incredible though.

Chances are Ren and Snoke put a hurting on Rey and the others in the next film (death of Luke seems narratively likely), before the Jedis, uh, return in the third.

They're clearly setting it up so that Ren, once "properly trained" by Snoke, will wreak havoc, since he got beat up pretty nicely in this one.

 

[BarringGaffner]

Well said. Maybe I'm not remembering well enough but was anyone really afraid of this guy? Poe, Hux, even Rey were never like in awe of his presence, and I loved that. Ren leaned way too heavily on his insane force powers to build a reputation but nobody was buying it.

Think of the first village scene. The cowering villages about to be slaughtered. This is when he held a blaster bolt still for several minutes.

but you're right, as soon as they saw through his exterior he had no power over them.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

I don't need friends! I only need the darkness! (<--cringe ahead)

What are they doing?

 

[jman2050]

Luke in no way picked stuff up as fast as she did. He had trouble even pulling a lightsaber to him at the beginning of ESB.

He did, however, fly a spaceship going at a million mph down the Death Star trench and nailed a moving precision shot into a 2 meter wide hole with no computer targeting assistance in one try, all because of the Force. Being able to wield a lightsaber well for a few minutes seems downright pedestrian in comparison.

This can't be stressed enough. The Force is not just some impersonal energy source that some people can tap into to make them jump around and swing laser swords, it is mystical space magic.

 

[Jarmel]

Well maybe Rey is even stronger?

She made Luke look like a scrub so maybe.

 

[Sanjuro]

How the hell is Rey a Mary Sue but Luke in Star Wars '77 isn't?

Because Luke isn't particularly skilled or overcame any sort of great odds.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

I don't need friends! I only need the darkness! (<--cringe ahead)

"Dual wield" bro has some sick moves.