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[Veelk]

Personally, I hate the term mary sue. It's has no fixed definition and I've seen people literally define it as just "Character I dislike." The real thing it actually boils down to is "I don't believe in this character as presented", which can happen for a number of reasons, so it's always more productive to frame the discussion like that instead.

It means a self-insert fanfiction character AFAIK.

Which is inherently an unprovable accusation, unless you know the author personally. It's a term that can't even be applied to Anakin. What parts of his personality were applied from Lucas? What parts of Edward were taken from Meyer? And even if you somehow know the author, what about well written characters that are also greatly similar to the writer? Are they mary sue's by default as well? What about EVERY other character ever? Any writer will tell you that they put pieces of themselves into their characters, so how is a mary sue any different from a regular character beyond the fact that you don't like them?

It's a shitty, shitty term for a problem that is more complex than any framing of it that I've seen. Call something a mary sue, you have 10 different people thinking 10 different things, often for non-supportable reasons. Say it's a character justification issue and explain why you don't buy it, everyone knows exactly what your problem with the character is.

Here are my previous posts on the mary sue, and the current discussion is exactly what I'm talking about. Half the posts are spent debating what a mary sue even is.

Rather than trying to use an inadequate label, it's better to actually talk about the situations you find unbelievable, and nurture the discussion about whether it really is believable or not.

 

[brandonh83]

I'm floored at the amount of negative comments I'm seeing in this thread.

Being confused at internet negativity confuses me.

 

[Frog-fu]

I don't disagree with anything he's saying, but, man, he's really having a breakdown over this, lol.

No, that's just how Max Landis is always like.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I could nitpick on this movie. My only genuine negative was the misuse of Finn I thought but oh well still a great movie, loved it all.

 

[Enthus]

At one point in the movie Chewie picks up what appears to be a robe off the ground? What was going on in this part?

Han throws off his jacket when he enters the generator room, then Chewie gives it back since they leave from the same elevator.

 

[Anoregon]

I didn't dislike Poe Daemon (except for being really annoyed that his name wasn't Daemon Poe), but am I the only person who liked Maz Kanata?

I just got back from seeing the movie with 2 people and we all thought she was great.

 

[Grover Cleveland]

At one point in the movie Chewie picks up what appears to be a robe off the ground? What was going on in this part?

Pretty sure its Han's coat.

 

[Messypandas]

At one point in the movie Chewie picks up what appears to be a robe off the ground? What was going on in this part?

It was Hans winter coat

 

[El Topo]

I didn't dislike Poe Daemon (except for being really annoyed that his name wasn't Daemon Poe), but am I the only person who liked Maz Kanata?

Nah, she was nice. Didn't expect her character to work when I saw her on the poster.

 

[DrForester]

Rey is not a Mary Sue, I don't even get that argument.

Wesley Crusher was a Mary Sue.

 

[Sojgat]

No, that's just how Max Landis is always like.

Passionate guy.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I'm floored at the amount of negative comments I'm seeing in this thread. It's a critically reviewed movie that brought a beloved franchise back to national prominence and it was damn good. It has problems, sure. But it's positives far, far outweigh the negatives.

Being floored by legitimate critique and discussion is weird.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Mind you guys not saying she's a marysue. Just saying that she might veer off to that if not handled properly.

Here are my previous posts on the mary sue, and the current discussion is exactly what I'm talking about. Half the posts are spent debating what a mary sue even is.

Rather than trying to use an inadequate label, it's better to actually talk about the situations you find unbelievable, and nurture the discussion about whether it really is believable or not.

Just use poorly-written Batman for it.

Or a Space Marine.

Or hell, EU Boba Fett.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Another weird thing is how Rey never says she is waiting for her parents, she specifically says "family", implying she has siblings. I find that weird, especially if we are meant to believe she doesn't remember who they are.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I saw the movie in german and unfortunately the voice actor of Kylo Ren almost ruined the entire movie for me. Adam Driver has this very deep, very strong, typical villain voice and they seriously let a guy with a high pitched, squeaky voice who would better fit in a cartoon for children voice him.
I just couldn't take him seriously whenever didn't have the mask on.

Miscast of the year.

Otherwise the film was amazing.

His voice sounded awesome inside and outside the mask. I also didn't think he sounded whiny at all. He really sold me with the bridge scene though. Great addition

 

[WillyFive]

I didn't dislike Poe Daemon (except for being really annoyed that his name wasn't Daemon Poe), but am I the only person who liked Maz Kanata?

Maz, the tiny alien from the bar? Wasn't she one of the best and more interesting characters in the movie?

 

[Frog-fu]

I could nitpick on this movie. My only genuine negative was the misuse of Finn I thought but oh well still a great movie, loved it all.

Honestly, I am so pleased the way Finn turned out and that he got so much screen time and so much to do. The only thing I didn't like was the misdirection with the lightsaber.

A leading black Stormtrooper that defects and uses a lightsaber is just too damn cool. If he doesn't turn out to be Force sensitive I'mma be disappointed.

 

[Sorcerer]

Han throws off his jacket when he enters the generator room, then Chewie gives it back since they leave from the same elevator.

Oh okay, an acquaintance and I (separate viewings) thought it had some significance. Weird we both didn't catch that. Thanks!!!

 

[CheeseConey]

I loved the lightsaber battle in this, felt like they were actually swinging something powerful around. My brother on the other hand thought the fighting was too slow, and preferred the prequel duels...

 

[MMarston]

Best theater reaction on my end was, as expected, the first minute of the entire movie.



This other video pretty much almost captures what it was like.

 

[……forgetit]

His voice sounded awesome inside and outside the mask. I also didn't think he sounded whiny at all. He really sold me with the bridge scene though. Great addition

German dub people, is no one reading the first line of that post?

 

[zethren]

I absolutely loved it. All of the new characters are fantastic, but I specifically really enjoyed Rey. She is a great new character, and just an awesome protagonist in general. I love that she is piloting the Falcon with Chewie and R2, and I'm most looking forward to watching her progress in her training.

I took Han's death hard when it happened, and like most of us could see it coming as the scene began. Which added so much tension to the entire dialog he and Kylo had.

Poe has so much charisma and is so much fun to watch "be cool". I was worried they would be ham handedly trying to make him the "cool guy" but he was fantastic.

Fin's character is amazing as well, and I just really enjoy seeing a Stormtrooper develop into something more. He is going to go through some great character transformation throughout this trilogy for sure, going from wanting to run away to storming Starkiller Base and going head to head with Kylo.

Kylo is interesting. I think he does a great job of being a threatening villain, but also an unstable child. It makes him even more terrifying in a way, and once he's completed his training he'll be a massive threat. His power in the Force is very strong as well. Stopping a blaster bolt mid air...and then keeping it there to go about his business in the village. Nuts.

There is no doubt that it very much lifted from the OT, and there were tons of nods to it. But honestly it didn't bother me. And after the PT, its a huge welcome.

My favorite touch: when Kylo was Force interrogating Rey, he saw her vision/daydream of an ocean with an island. "You imagine an ocean, I see it. I see the island.". I really think that her envisioning that was the Force speaking to her of Luke's location. Which is on an island in the ocean.

Prediction: Rey is not a Skywalker. I have no idea who her parents are, but the setup makes me think that her parents or at least one of them is someone we know. But I don't believe she's a Skywalker.

ESB > ANH > TFA > ROtJ > ROtS > TPM > AOtC

 

[Brakke]

I'm floored at the amount of negative comments I'm seeing in this thread. It's a critically reviewed movie that brought a beloved franchise back to national prominence and it was damn good. It has problems, sure. But it's positives far, far outweigh the negatives.

Eh. "Negatives" provide more to discuss than "positives". We could just keep saying "yo that thumbs up was good" forever but that's not much of a conversation. Digging into why something didn't work for people is more interesting.

 

[Laieon]

My only real complaint is Snoke. That's just a stupid name.

Prediction: Rey is not a Skywalker. I have no idea who her parents are, but the setup makes me think that her parents or at least one of them is someone we know. But I don't believe she's a Skywalker.

She's R2D2 and C3PO's kid.

 

[Haribi]

LOL NO

With miscast I meant the german voice actor

 

[brandonh83]

No, that's just how Max Landis is always like.

Fans always think they could have did things better but they never seem to realize that they're also not the ones who put the creative effort in building and thinking of all this new material in the first place.

Beyond writing there's an extensive creative period and I'd like to see these fans who can do it all better create something as immediately iconic like BB8. Yeah they can criticize and lay out things they'd have did differently but they're taking a slew of originality that is hard to achieve and skimming over the fact that they didn't create any of it, conceptualize any of it and so forth.

That's the difference between artists and hacks.

 

[DragonSworne]

Are you guys trying to tell me Rey is a Cylon?

 

[Frog-fu]

Passionate guy.

He's very awkward and has mental and behaviour conditions for which he takes medication. I heard him talk about it at length on a podcast and it kind of explains why he can sometimes come across as abrasive or arrogant and generally insufferable to some people.

I think he's a great guy though. He's passionate and imaginative and doesn't hold back any of it. Just cause he works in the business doesn't mean he should let it hold him back from being a critical nerd like everyone else.

 

[injurai]

My only real complaint is Snoke. That's just a stupid name.

Sheeeeeeeeeeee...eeeeeev

 

[Ether_Snake]

Maz, the tiny alien from the bar? Wasn't she one of the best and more interesting characters in the movie?

The worst. Horrible CG, and only used to give quick exposition, plus she is force sensitive so of course she knows anything. Should have been removed from the script and have Leia be the one that speaks to Rey and Finn, gives her the light saber, etc. She was the fricking backup plan if Luke died in the OT, we don't need Maz to talk about the force or have the lightsaber.

 

[Shaanyboi]

I loved the lightsaber battle in this, felt like they were actually swinging something powerful around. My brother on the other hand thought the fighting was too slow, and preferred the prequel duels...

Yup. Great fight.

Best theater reaction on my end was, as expected, the first minute of the entire movie.



This other video pretty much almost captures what it was like.

Yup, that was my theater's reaction too Along with applause everytime a classic character appeared. "YAAAY HIM! YAAAY IT'S HER! HAHAHAHA IT'S THAT OLD THING!" Fun time

 

[Daria Morgendorffer]

Fuck I really liked this movie so much, the characters were really good, Rey and Finn were both really fun characters to me and even Harrison Ford was great in a movie again.
Characters all had great chemistry together and there were genuine funny moments that made me chuckle.

 

[pupcoffee]

I felt that the "lightsaber flashes" sequence was too incomprehensible, it was bad, it threw a few people I knew out of the loop, it's like Rey's background information got tossed in there with a bunch of ambiguous imagery and the meaning behind why it was all connected wasn't clear.

 

[DrForester]

My only real complaint is Snoke. That's just a stupid name.

That name had to have come from Lucas. It just has to be something he came up with.

 

[Dispatch]

I have yet to see negative comments.....and I'd be surprised to see any (although there has to be someone out there that didn't like it).

Maybe I'm misreading critiques as negative reviews, or I'm just reading more negative posts but from what I've read:

1. several people dislike Rey
2. Kylo Ren isn't menacing enough
3. the fan service is too much

I loved the film, and I'm notorious amongst people I know for being tough on movies. I'm really surprised that so many dislike it.

 

[Messypandas]

I'm floored at the amount of negative comments I'm seeing in this thread. It's a critically reviewed movie that brought a beloved franchise back to national prominence and it was damn good. It has problems, sure. But it's positives far, far outweigh the negatives.

Every movie is a critically reviewed movie.

 

[Pandy]

Some great new characters and actors, but the worst Star Wars film by a mile. More of an A New Hope "remake" than an actual sequel to Return of the Jedi. Really needed to show the rise of the First Order, or something, to try and fit in place because on it's own there was very little to care about in this.

The more I think about it, the worse it gets. For now, 5/10.

 

[Toa TAK]

Anyone else nabbed the artbook, by the way? There's some great story changes and whatnot in here (although, I'm sure that's been discussed, too).

 

[Azerare]

It seems like Rey may have skywalker lineage after the whole Maz light sabers dialogue with her. That and how well tuned to the force she is like Anakin and Luke were.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Fans always think they could have did things better but they never seem to realize that they're also not the ones who put the creative effort in building and thinking of all this new material in the first place.

Beyond writing there's an extensive creative period and I'd like to see these fans who can do it all better create something as immediately iconic like BB8. Yeah they can criticize and lay out things they'd have did differently but they're taking a slew of originality that is hard to achieve and skimming over the fact that they didn't create any of it, conceptualize any of it and so forth.

That's the difference between artists and hacks.

"I'd like to see you do better" always strikes me as one of the lamest and laziest of responses to critiques.

 

[Master Thespian]

Maybe Rey is Kenobi's granddaughter.

 

[Frog-fu]

Fans always think they could have did things better but they never seem to realize that they're also not the ones who put the creative effort in building and thinking of all this new material in the first place.

Beyond writing there's an extensive creative period and I'd like to see these fans who can do it all better create something as immediately iconic like BB8. Yeah they can criticize and lay out things they'd have did differently but they're taking a slew of originality that is hard to achieve and skimming over the fact that they didn't create any of it, conceptualize any of it and so forth.

That's the difference between artists and hacks.

Well, Landis is an actual writer (and recently a director, I think) and he explains and backs up everything he says very concisely. Just because he's critical doesn't mean TFA is a piece of shit and he could have done it ten times better if he had the chance.

 

[DMczaf]

I take it this thread already went through Max Landis' Thoughts on Rey (and why she's a Mary Sue)?

When he called her John Cena, I lost it.


Because it's so true hahaha

 

[Einchy]

New one from Landis this time on Kylo Ren, got to admit, this would have been better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdEIzRUos4g

Even though I really like that idea I don't think his ending to the fight works. Rey completely embracing the Force and 'letting it in" doesn't feel as satisfying if Kylo was trying to commit suicide by cop.

 

[MMarston]

Yup, that was my theater's reaction too Along with applause everytime a classic character appeared. "YAAAY HIM! YAAAY IT'S HER! HAHAHAHA IT'S THAT OLD THING!" Fun time

I gotta admit though, it started to get a rather annoying when people cheered for very specific things.


Like Nien Nunb. Who ever the hell thought Nien Nunb would get some cheers? Also, obligatory "It's a trap" for Ackbar.

 

[micster]

the worst Star Wars film by a mile.

 

[Tanston]

I don't really consider that to be "using" a lightsaber but it is a valid point.

Yeah I guess my point is there's nothing inherent about a lightsaber that makes force sensitivity a requirement. It's basically just a really dangerous sword. So the jury is still out on Finn being force sensitive, evidence is inconclusive. He sure looked awesome with that Saber in his hand though.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

With miscast I meant the german voice actor

Ha sorry man my bad

 

[LegalEagleMike]

Some great new characters and actors, but the worst Star Wars film by a mile. More of an A New Hope "remake" than an actual sequel to Return of the Jedi. Really needed to show the rise of the First Order, or something, to try and fit in place because on it's own there was very little to care about in this.

The more I think about it, the worse it gets. For now, 5/10.

everyones allowed to have an opinion but I just cant wrap my mind around you thinking attack of the clones or phantom menace were better movies than this.

 

[Brakke]

Maz, the tiny alien from the bar? Wasn't she one of the best and more interesting characters in the movie?

I thought she was intriguing but she was also basically irrelevant to the plot.