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[jett]

How come the 2 main CG characters (Big bad guy and female orange Yoda with big glasses) looked worse than anything in Avatar?

Avatar was in production for longer than this movie, Cameron already had a clear idea on what he wanted and how to execute it, and he was adamant about pushing the technological envelope.

This movie exists due to a $4 billion buyout and by all accounts was rushed into production.

 

[afternoon delight]

The writing and delivery are both on point.

Meh. I thought Kylo was incredibly clown shoes and the back and forth stuff sounded like throwaway gags in Star Wars parodies. (I'm cold Chewie, temper tantrums of several kinds, robot lighter joke, "R2s done moved on", etc.)

A lot of that didn't work for me and I was surprised they were present in a film with such a high budget.

 

[SomTervo]

So does she ? She mentions she has piloting experience based on running towards the fighter ship before she goes to the MF

This is the thing, Rey has just as much - probably more - experience than Luke, the film just doesn't tell us about it explicitly. It's all in the background of her opening scenes.

She clearly knows starships in an out. She is clearly good at surviving and fighting and has lived alone in a hostile place for years. She says herself she's a dab hand at piloting when they're making their escape.

You can learn loads about Rey just by reading between the lines - which is great storytelling. Fury Road received a lot of praise for doing the same thing.

That's why it's weak. This movie forgot to tell the most interesting stories it's built on.

Any story is interesting as long as you tell it well. I'm 100% satisied with the story they told in this one.

After the escape from the creepy monsters, did Han say, in reference to BB-8, "Grab the toy"?

Grab the droid I think?

 

[DryvBy]

Has anyone explained how Rey managed to out-Forced Kylo without any training? I thought that made Kylo look super pathetic and weak.

 

[jett]

...but some of you are gonna rewatch that film and hear Maz there anyway now.

I agreed with you already before, I was also expecting those words at that very moment. It was super telegraphed, and yet it never happened. Someone in the editing room probably came to their senses.

 

[Blader]

Too much of a callback to Obi-Wan's "Use the force, Luke" except Maz carries no meaning of any sort to Rey. Maz isn't even a Jedi. She's really just Exposition Character. Now that's one thing I bet never gets explained or brought up ever again, how she knows so much about everything.

And I think she said that line to her at the Not Cantina anyway, didn't she? Or maybe I imagined it. I'll say this much though, I was expecting the exact same thing to happen in that scene, considering the rest of the movie, haha.

She's 1000 years old, mang. If you don't live to be that long without knowing a lot of shit, you've been doing it wrong.

 

[Blade30]

This was exceptionally dumb and my crew had a good laugh about it afterwards. It's Star Wars so whatever, but yeah.

Not really. You can clearly see that this was his first real battle and to the end of the movie he also says to Han that he only worked in the sanitation. So he's not even a real soldier.

 

[amnesiac]

Has anyone explained how Rey managed to out-Forced Kylo without any training? I thought that made Kylo look super pathetic and weak.

I think that was the point

 

[brandonh83]

Someone in the editing room probably came to their senses.

Thank god.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Maybe, just maybe, she's a action star in the same way James Bond is an action star without having to slap this for-woman-only label on her.

But I don't think she is supposed to be like. They clearly want to have a explanation for her abilities unlike James Bond.
Also, if that's indeed the case then no wonder I find her boring because bond is boring to me.

 

[Sectorseven]

How does that Starkiller base work exactly? It absorbs the sunlight, killing the star, but it's a planet. Can it propel itself to other places in the galaxy? How else does it get to other stars to absorb them?

 

[Jetman]

Like I said in the other thread, the reason people are complaining so much about Rey's powers is the fucking prequels and their stupid Jedi classrooms. People are thinking "she hasn't taken mind trick class yet!" haha.

I don't see people complaining about Luke making an impossible shot with no training in a New hope. Having a problem with Rey is rediculous.

Except, how does Rey even know what a Jedi Mind Trick is? Or a Force Grab? Especially given that she's had no interaction with Force users or Jedi.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

Trained is a stretch and a half. Rey is tough and she can scrap... with random thugs on some dusty backwater planet.

Kylo Ren is a powerful and experienced user of the Dark Side of the force. He is the leader of the Knights of Ren, a group even Snoke seems to hold in high regard. He goes into battle with only a lightsaber and is untouchable. This guy by all accounts should be nigh untouchable to Rey but he gets clowned during the interrogation scene and rekt in their duel. It's shitty.

I think she only screwed up with the safety on the blaster. After that she took out a bunch of troopers. Not really a big deal to me since troopers get owned by everyone.

You can lob accusations all you want, but so long as you continue to ignore the actual arguments simply because you don't like them, you'll be arguing in bad faith.

I think you're giving Ren way too much credit. Guy was as green as could ever be compared to literally everyone we've seen who has held a lightsaber.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

I dont see any reason why he should be untouchable in that fight. Kylo seems emotionally very unstable, he was seriously inured to the point where he was beating his wound to stay conscious, and Snoke even says at the end he needs to complete kylos training. So he isnt even fully trained yet. Rey was shown to already have her shit together at the beginning of the movie when it comes to fighting and piloting, so its not like she magically learned those things. The only thing thats 'mary sue' like with her character was how she learned the force so easily, but that could just be because shes naturally stronger than most with it. I dont think her character is poorly written.

Her general prowess as a combatant on Jakku shouldn't translate to using a lightsaber for the first time and fending off and outdoing a trained but injured lightsaber user. It is just too much of a stretch for me.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Except, how does Rey even know what a Jedi Mind Trick is? Or a Force Grab? Especially given that she's had no interaction with Force users or Jedi.

Except for the interaction she just had with a Force User shoving himself into her head, and then her shoving him right back out.

Plus the whole Force awakening thing that's going on.

Everyone's giving Snoke, Kylo & the Knights of Ren a lot of credit I don't know that they've actually earned. Snoke is a big orc-y lookin dipshit, Kylo is a brat, and the Knights of Ren aren't even around anywhere. It's entirely possible these dark side acolytes are the Star Wars equivalent of revival tent preachers/snake oil salesmen, who don't really have the juice they pretend they have.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Avatar was in production for longer than this movie, Cameron already had a clear idea on what he wanted and how to execute it, and he was adamant about pushing the technological envelope.

This movie exists due to a $4 billion buyout and by all accounts was rushed into production.

They should have handed Cameron the job to write the scripts. That guys write amazing shit under pressure. He wrote both Aliens and Rambo 2 in a very short timeframe and both scripts were the shit. Camerons Rambo 2 was so much better than what actually made it into the movie. Such a shame...

 

[Chezzymann]

Except, how does Rey even know what a Jedi Mind Trick is? Or a Force Grab? Especially given that she's had no interaction with Force users or Jedi.

Shes heard all the legends about the original movies

 

[diaspora]

Not really. You can clearly see that this was his first real battle and to the end of the movie he also says to Han that he only worked in the sanitation. So he's not even a real soldier.

He's a real Soldier that was in the top 1% of performers, the thing is, is that the Jakku slaughter was his first mission out of training. Sanitation was his job while he was still a student.

 

[BrokenFiction]

Except, how does Rey even know what a Jedi Mind Trick is? Or a Force Grab? Especially given that she's had no interaction with Force users or Jedi.

When Kylo was trying to touch her mind to get the info, to me it felt like she not only resisted but stepped into his head a little. "You're afraid." So she may have gotten a little from there, some from instinct.

 

[GhaleonEB]

The writing and delivery are both on point.

The only line/joke that I think doesn't really land is when Han is about to fly the Falcon out of his smuggling ship, and quips, "This is not how I thought this day was gonna go." It was oddly timed and seemed too...written, for lack of better term. But otherwise yeah. The banter and humor was very reminiscent of the OT, Empire and ANH in particular.

It's funny how he was supposed to die in that TIE fighter apparently.

Huh. Glad they expanded his role, Issac is great.

He had help from Obi Wan before and during the shot. Yeah, I know, it was just one sentence. But sometimes that is all that it takes to make it more believable.

And Rey had Kylo inadvertently doing the same for her.

 

[Randdalf]

How does that Starkiller base work exactly? It absorbs the sunlight, killing the star, but it's a planet. Can it propel itself to other places in the galaxy? How else does it get to other stars to absorb them?

How did the Death Star get to other planets to kill them? This is the sort of stuff that doesn't really need explaining in the films, because the Starkiller base stuff is really just a backdrop for the character drama.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Except, how does Rey even know what a Jedi Mind Trick is? Or a Force Grab? Especially given that she's had no interaction with Force users or Jedi.

And you know that for certain? She could have been part of Luke's Jedi Academy when she was a kid.

 

[slightconfuse]

Except, how does Rey even know what a Jedi Mind Trick is? Or a Force Grab? Especially given that she's had no interaction with Force users or Jedi.

Ren using the force on her to read her mind. Basically did the same thing

 

[DiipuSurotu]

How does that Starkiller base work exactly? It absorbs the sunlight, killing the star, but it's a planet. Can it propel itself to other places in the galaxy? How else does it get to other stars to absorb them?

I think it can. I'm pretty sure Death Stars could move too.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Trained is a stretch and a half. Rey is tough and she can scrap... with random thugs on some dusty backwater planet.

Kylo Ren is a powerful and experienced user of the Dark Side of the force. He is the leader of the Knights of Ren, a group even Snoke seems to hold in high regard. He goes into battle with only a lightsaber and is untouchable. This guy by all accounts should be nigh untouchable to Rey but he gets clowned during the interrogation scene and rekt in their duel. It's shitty.

I think she only screwed up with the safety on the blaster. After that she took out a bunch of troopers. Not really a big deal to me since troopers get owned by everyone.

You can lob accusations all you want, but so long as you continue to ignore the actual arguments simply because you don't like them, you'll be arguing in bad faith.

Arguing that in bad faith because I reject the intentional misrepresentation of what happened in that movie?

Rey used straight up martial arts moves on her attackers.

Ren is deliberately portrayed as more sloppy and volatile, and is obviously extremely conflicted about what he is doing. His mind is in turmoil and his self-control is weak.

No where do we see anything to suggest that Ren is necessarily a better fighter than Rey. His only verified advantage is better knowledge and control of his force powers.

Ren was very seriously wounded several times (would which would each take a normal person out of thrig It or kill them) before fighting Rey in a type of combat that suits her strengths. And Rey only triumphs because of tapping into what are obviously incredibly strong latent force powers and used sheer force of will to overpower Ren after he had out-fought her.

She is either just much more inherently powerful in the force than Ren, or just has better focus and menal peace to wield the force, or only just barely edged him out due to his injuries, or some combination of the three.

The story comes right out and tells you that Rey doesn't know how to use a blaster but won't admit it, and she doesn't even know how to hold it when Han gives it to her. And she fucks up again when trying to shoot with the safety on. The best she can do is spray and pray but let's not let that get in the way of a trumped up Mary Sue accusation.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

I think you're giving Ren way too much credit. Guy was as green as could ever be compared to literally everyone we've seen who has held a lightsaber.

And that would still be far more than what Rey and Finn could do with a lightsaber.

 

[Blader]

Except, how does Rey even know what a Jedi Mind Trick is? Or a Force Grab? Especially given that she's had no interaction with Force users or Jedi.

She and Ren have a Jedi Mind Meld moment.

 

[Aiii]

Has anyone explained how Rey managed to out-Forced Kylo without any training? I thought that made Kylo look super pathetic and weak.

Kylo is young and unexperienced.
Kylo just murdered his own father, he's conflicted and emotional.
Also, oh yeah, he got shot straight through his gut by a very powerful crossbow blaster and is bleeding heavily.
We don't know if Rey never had any training, her mind has obviously been tampered with.
Rey is obviously proficient with a weapon, and she has been surviving on her own on an alien planet with nobody looking out for her since childhood.

 

[Kor of Memory]

Okay, so is Phasma dead?

We know Hux was told to pick up Kylo and get out of dodge, but that last we know of Phasma is she was stuck in a trash compactor, likely without anyone knowing she was there.

I would come to the conclusion that she is dead from just that information, but I also felt she was too significant a character to just die like that, so I don't know.

I feel like she should have died, but I feel like they'll wave it away with an answer later.

 

[kurahador]

How does that Starkiller base work exactly? It absorbs the sunlight, killing the star, but it's a planet. Can it propel itself to other places in the galaxy? How else does it get to other stars to absorb them?

It can jump to FTL apparently.
Yeah...tried not to think too much.

So...Darth Plagueis novel is canon right? Thinking of picking it up.

 

[Falk]

Thinking on it a little more, I think the whole Han/Ben scene would have affected me more if the legacy EU hadn't set up a subconscious, innate expectation that Han and Leia had a son that turns to the dark side and murders a relative.

Damn you EU

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[JB1981]

How does that Starkiller base work exactly? It absorbs the sunlight, killing the star, but it's a planet. Can it propel itself to other places in the galaxy? How else does it get to other stars to absorb them?

It better be mobile because if not if would I destroy the sun and all human life would die

 

[KooopaKid]

How does that Starkiller base work exactly? It absorbs the sunlight, killing the star, but it's a planet. Can it propel itself to other places in the galaxy? How else does it get to other stars to absorb them?

That's what I wondered as well. It can't be an artificial planet, can it?

BTW, did they blow up Coruscant or is it another planet?

 

[DryvBy]

I think that was the point

Seems backwards. The Dark Side should seem scary, not weak and pathetic. They gave an almost Nazi Germany feel to the movies with Vader being a dude that would ruin your lunch just for being in his presence. Kylo seems weaker than Dark Helmet.

 

[MMarston]

Okay, so is Phasma dead?

Gwendoline signed up for VIII so maybe not.


I've mentioned it before but I expect her to come back as a comedically drunk and disgraced mercenary.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Finn was such a lost opportunity. He could have had a really great arc about overcoming his damaged upbringing......instead he is "whoo-ing" like Tyrese in a fast and furious movie within 20 minutes.

he felt like such a Token Black dude by the end I felt insulted.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Okay, so is Phasma dead?

We know Hux was told to pick up Kylo and get out of dodge, but that last we know of Phasma is she was stuck in a trash compactor, likely without anyone knowing she was there.

I would come to the conclusion that she is dead from just that information, but I also felt she was too significant a character to just die like that, so I don't know.

I feel like she should have died, but I feel like they'll wave it away with an answer later.

It's a classic trope to play up doing something awful to a captured bad guy, for the sake of catharsis. I don't think they would have done that, and if they did it wouldn't have been so casual that it was just implied to happen offscreen.

Phasma will return.

 

[antonz]

How does that Starkiller base work exactly? It absorbs the sunlight, killing the star, but it's a planet. Can it propel itself to other places in the galaxy? How else does it get to other stars to absorb them?

Imagine it has a death star like Hyperdrive. The new map of the galaxy points to Starkiller bases Origin Point. The weapon itself is of course all convenience of plot. Why would it require the same amount of power to wipe out one planet as to wipe out half dozen for instance

 

[OriginofHysteria]

And that would still be far more than what Rey and Finn could do with a lightsaber.

Except he got hurt 10 minutes before as had been stated many times in this thread so he was at a definite handicap.

This whole argument reminds me of people saying there was no character development in Mad Max. Sometimes it just isn't that obvious.

 

[jett]

Except for the interaction she just had with a Force User shoving himself into her head, and then her shoving him right back out.

Plus the whole Force awakening thing that's going on.

Everyone's giving Snoke, Kylo & the Knights of Ren a lot of credit I don't know that they've actually earned. Snoke is a big orc-y lookin dipshit, Kylo is a brat, and the Knights of Ren aren't even around anywhere. It's entirely possible these dark side acolytes are the Star Wars equivalent of revival tent preachers/snake oil salesmen, who don't really have the juice they pretend they have.

I thought she knew about that stuff cuz it was clear she was a huge Skywalker nerd.

They should have handed Cameron the job to write the scripts. That guys write amazing shit under pressure. He wrote both Aliens and Rambo 2 in a very short timeframe and both scripts were the shit. Camerons Rambo 2 was so much better than what actually made it into the movie. Such a shame...

A Star Wars script by James Cameron would be something I would read STAT lol.

 

[Aureon]

Holy shit. She sounds nutty.

I think I saw an interview with Ridley (Or maybe Abrams) where she said she softened the character a bit. Kinda glad she did.

Works great on paper, but the "I'm not good with people" shtick is extremely hard to pull off properly on screen, and definitely impossible with Star Wars tone.
She's enthusiastic in the movie and that's the best way, definitely. But the background is pretty interesting.

I think that's why she can be taken as a bit of a mary sue: Her main character flaws (Trust issues, mid sociopathy, refusal to accept reality) had to be written out to get the proper Star Wars mood.

Did Rey literally live inside the guts of that AT-AT Walker?

And she has the reworked flight sim of a TIE fighter inside it.
And gets parts out of a crashed star destroyer & fleet for a living.

 

[Chezzymann]

Her general prowess as a combatant on Jakku shouldn't translate to using a lightsaber for the first time and fending off and outdoing a trained but injured lightsaber user. It is just too much of a stretch for me.

From the impression I got hes not that great yet and is just starting out. I dont think hes close to the level Vader or any of the sith in the PT were at

Also a light saber is just a sword. Not much different than reys staff

 

[LaserBuddha]

Finn was such a lost opportunity. He could have had a really great arc about overcoming his damaged upbringing......instead he is "whoo-ing" like Tyrese in a fast and furious movie within 20 minutes.

he felt like such a Token Black dude by the end I felt insulted.

Considering how often white heroes in youth-marketed action movies go "Whoo", it really says something when Finn does it one fucking time and you hear comparisons to the black guy from FaF and "token black guy."

 

[Falk]

How does that Starkiller base work exactly? It absorbs the sunlight, killing the star, but it's a planet. Can it propel itself to other places in the galaxy? How else does it get to other stars to absorb them?

It can jump to FTL apparently.

Yeah...tried not to think too much.

I mean, its effects are visible in the sky light years away almost instantly and at a size implying they're within orbit of the same solar system. I don't think conventional physics (or logic) applies here, really.

That's what I wondered as well. It can't be an artificial planet, can it?

BTW, did they blow up Coruscant or is it another planet?

Another system - Hosnian system

 

[Oni Link 666]

How does that Starkiller base work exactly? It absorbs the sunlight, killing the star, but it's a planet. Can it propel itself to other places in the galaxy? How else does it get to other stars to absorb them?

It killed the star? But there was still sun light and the planet didn't freeze. I don't think they killed the star.

Rey has obviously watched Jedi in training or something. Probably her mom. You don't just come up with Jedi mind tricks on your own.

 

[MrBadger]

It is still too much for two people who were literally using a lightsaber for their very first time.

Rey is combat trained and Finn is an ex-stormtrooper and a lightsaber is hardly a complex weapon. It's a laser sword.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Seems backwards. The Dark Side should seem scary, not weak and pathetic. They gave an almost Nazi Germany feel to the movies with Vader being a dude that would ruin your lunch just for being in his presence. Kylo seems weaker than Dark Helmet.

Han literally stated that this is the case.

 

[blackdevil]

Just remembered one of my favorites shots of the movie: how cool it was that moment of Poe's X-Wing destroying 7 or 8 Tie in the same sequence shot, and then Finn joy reaction...so goood!

soooooooooo good ! yes i loved that. I was following the X Wing like a child running after a butterfly.

LOVED IT!!

 

[jackdoe]

Finn was such a lost opportunity. He could have had a really great arc about overcoming his damaged upbringing......instead he is "whoo-ing" like Tyrese in a fast and furious movie within 20 minutes.

he felt like such a Token Black dude by the end I felt insulted.

I didn't think it was that big of a deal. The movie needs to maintain some sort of levity. That's why Luke is excited when he shoots down his first Tie Fighter in ANH, just minutes after Obi-Wan dies. He can't be gloomy for the entire movie and neither can Finn.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Rey is combat trained and Finn is an ex-stormtrooper and a lightsaber is hardly a complex weapon. It's a laser sword.

A fellow storm trooper goes toe to toe with him, lightsaber vs electric baton thing, but we can't accept that Finn could handle himself.