[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up

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Who was that old man at the beginning of the movie that gave part of the map to Poe? What was his relationship to Luke?
 
ferr said:
Who was that old man at the beginning of the movie that gave part of the map to Poe? What was his relationship to Luke?
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We don't know. the only assumptions we can kinda make is that he was watching over Rey on Jakku like how Obiwan was watching over Luke on Tatooine but we don't have a definitive answer.
 
-griffy- said:
That's definitely addressed in the movie. They mention Finn was put up for rehabilitation after the Jakku village attack, and that this was his first recorded incident. So it's implied he's not the first one to act out but usually they have a whole program in place for troopers to keep them indoctrinated (or presumably executed should it fail). Finn escaped before they could do that.
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I'm not so much talking about him shooting the troopers but general attitude and mannerisms. He seemingly wouldn't have any trouble fitting into regular American society. Unless they have some sort of downtime that has them going offbase regularly and therefore not becoming neurotic messes and also interacting with regular people, it's kinda off. Things like asking Rey whether she has a cute boyfriend while funny don't gel with how his background has been set up.

It's super dark and fucked up but Finn probably would have been chemically castrated and other horrendous shit.
 
Steel said:
They're following orders, and they're indoctrinated. That explains why he defends himself, which I wasn't arguing against, it doesn't explain why he enjoys killing them.
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He enjoys killing them because he's now a good guy killing the bad guys in a fun Star Wars movie.

I don't think he freaked out about the dead storm trooper at the beginning because it was a dead storm trooper, but because it represented him dying, fighting for a cause he didn't believe in, slaughtering innocent people. It shook him because he realized that could be him, not because he felt bad for that specific trooper necessarily.
 
shortsFortallPeople said:
We don't know. the only assumptions we can kinda make is that he was watching over Rey on Jakku like how Obiwan was watching over Luke on Tatooine but we don't have a definitive answer.
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He is a follower of the Jedi religion but not a Jedi.

He knows some shit though. His first lines are

"This will begin to make things right"
 
Unless Finn's parents are important, I'm not even sure why they did the whole 'raised from birth' thing. It would have worked just as well if Finn joined when he was younger.
 
Steel said:
They're following orders, and they're indoctrinated. That explains why he defends himself, which I wasn't arguing against, it doesn't explain why he enjoys killing them.
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I don't think he enjoys killing them per se as much as he enjoys finally being able to exercise free will and battle on the side he actually wants to be on.

Regardless, should there have been a scene showing that he did it with some remorse, or a scene in which he talks to someone about it? There probably should have. Is it a first for Star Wars to omit such character moments, however? No, because the movies in the franchise tend to focus on being uplifting, epic space operas, not an examination of how horrible war is.
 
Inferno313 said:
I can almost see the Rey/Luke scenes playing out like the Dumbledore/Harry scenes in The Half-Blood Prince. Less back carrying and lifting rocks, more following Luke around and learning from him as they explore ancient Jedi temples.
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Funny you say that; I was thinking just the other day that The Force Awakens almost feels like Harry Potter with its introduction of new characters to a perennial struggle and it's "three compelling leads" structure.
 
-griffy- said:
He enjoys killing them because he's now a good guy killing the bad guys in a fun Star Wars movie.

I don't think he freaked out about the dead storm trooper at the beginning because it was a dead storm trooper, but because it represented him dying, fighting for a cause he didn't believe in, slaughtering innocent people. It shook him because he realized that could be him, not because he felt bad for that specific trooper necessarily.
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I get that that's what they were going for, but it was constructed better in previous Star Wars movies because the characters never had any reason to be empathetic toward the stormtroopers. The fact that Fin also isn't empathetic to them and that's used as a quick way for him to bond with both Rey and Poe felt cheap.

Theodoricos said:
I don't think he enjoys killing them per se as much as he enjoys finally being able to exercise free will and battle on the side he actually wants to be on.

Regardless, should there have been a scene showing that he did it with some remorse, or a scene in which he talks to someone about it? There probably should have. Is it a first for Star Wars to omit such character moments, however? No, because the movies in the franchise tend to focus on being uplifting, epic space operas, not an examination of how horrible war is.
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I would've preferred if they fleshed out Finn on that front. I mean, they went back on the series nature to have imposing, put together, main villains with Ren.
 
Steel said:
When does he have time to process that the resistance is any better? Why does he think Luke is a good person worth finding? Even ignoring that, why does he take joy in killing people who are in the same position that he used to be in not long ago?
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Are you serious?


First off he says he was taken away from his family, when he confesses to Rey in the bar.

2nd He takes joy in actually doing stuff right and getting away, not that he killed a bunch of storm troopers. Even though he knows they wouldn't hesitate to kill women and children of all species.

3rd, The resistance isn't blowing up planets and killing villages. The resistance is trying to defend the galaxy from the First Order which is a reason why the storm troopers are needed. Cannon Fodder and dirty work[sanitation]
 
Steel said:
When does he have time to process that the resistance is any better?
Why does he think Luke is a good person worth finding?
Even ignoring that, why does he take joy in killing people who are in the same position that he used to be in not long ago?
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All of these questions are answered explicitly in the movie.

He doesn't, he lies that he's in the resistance because of how Rey looked at him once she thought he was part of the resistance. He wants to run away. Once given the chance to escape the first order, he runs away until they begin to invade the planet before he has a chance.

He doesn't. He cares about Rey. He doesn't care about Luke. He fights for the resistance only because they're a way for him to get onto Starkiller base and rescue Rey. He is left in a coma at the end of the movie.

He doesn't take joy in it, he takes joy over having the freedom and escaping the First Order. He's impressed what he can do, because he's from an environment where he's only told what he must do, and because he's away from the first order. He kills other Stormtroopers because he has two overriding driving motivations, the first to escape the First Order and run away from them at all costs, and the second to protect Rey; his concern in this movie never was that there were people in his position, the trauma of the first battle kickstarted his desire to run away and escape, as he states directly. He bonds over having freedom and the ability to escape, finally finding people who care for him for the first time, and finally giving him the ability to discover his own abilities.

I don't know how much clearer they could have made this, Maz states he has the eyes of somebody to run, he comments how terrifying the First Order is and how they have to escape, he goes to leave with the two individuals offering work, he states they can't go back to Jakku and they have to escape the First Order, he tells Han directly he offered to help the rebellion with Starkiller base only because it was a way to get back to Rey, he cares for Rey, Han, Poe, and Chewie because they helped him escape the First Order.

EDIT: Honestly, I really don't know how much they could have made this any more explicit; his motivations were the most explicitly stated out of any of the new lead characters. The only way I can imagine it being made any more clear is if during the attack on Maz's everything becomes static and silent as time is frozen, Han turns to Finn and asks "Finn, you are killing your fellow stormtroopers, your escape route has been prevented" and Finn turns into the camera and states "I know Han, I have to escape the first order and protect Rey" while a big neon sign appears above his head and states "I must escape the first order".
 
Lombax said:
Quick question.

Are there any good books around this film? I found Aftermath on amazon, but it has terrible reviews.

Mainly wanted to see if there was anything out that covers the time prior to the start of the movie.
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Here's the entire list of post-RotJ stuff (outside of reference books like the Visual Dictionary, etc.):

Shattered Empire - comic that takes place from Endor to 3 months afterward, focusing on Poe's parents (Shara Bey and Kes Dameron) and Operation: Cinder, an Imperial retaliation plan

Aftermath - novel that takes place 3-4 months after Endor about a group of (lower-case r) rebels who try to rescue Wedge Antilles after he is captured during a summit by surviving Imperials who are trying to figure out a counterattack

Lost Stars - young adult novel (but don't let the genre fool you) that covers from before ANH to one year after RotJ about lovers caught on opposite sides of the war, leading up to the Battle of Jakku. Widely regarded as the best of the bunch.

The Perfect Bait - E-book about Bazine Netal (the lady on Takodana who reports BB-8 to the First Order), a spy who is sent on a mission to recover a package for a mysterious client

Tales from a Galaxy Far, Far Away - a collection of short stories about some of the aliens on Takodana and Jakku

Before the Awakening - collection of novellas about Finn, Poe, and Rey immediately preceding TFA

The OT-era young adult novels Smuggler's Run, The Weapon of a Jedi, and Moving Target (which focus on Han, Luke, and Leia respectively) also have prologues and epilogues that happen immediately before TFA, and the young adult novel series Servants of the Empire, which takes place a few years before ANH during the Rebels tv series, ties in as well.
 
I doubt Luke gets killed off. Pretty sure the only reason Han was killed off is because Ford has been wanting that since Jedi. He already sacrificed himself for his son, it wouldn't make much sense for Luke to do the same for Rey.

Besides, from the way Luke looks at Rey, he does not seem to be happy to see her. Probably because she's Palpatines granddaughter.
 
JetBlackPanda said:
No way. I could see Luke sacrificing himself someway though
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Possibly, but here's my guess for,

Ep8 big ending fight:
Finn vs Knights of Ren
Poe/Resistance vs FO aerial battle of some sort

Ep9 big ending fights:
Trained Rey vs SSJ Ren
Superman Luke Skywalker vs Darth Plagueis

Luke Skywalker isn't going to just keel over suddenly or die in his sleep. He's going to take on the big bad guy that no one else in the universe is prepared for.
 
Jarmel said:
Unless Finn's parents are important, I'm not even sure why they did the whole 'raised from birth' thing. It would have worked just as well if Finn joined when he was younger.
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Not all were raised from birth.

Huh was specifically talking about the ones he sent down to capture Fin and the Droid on Jakku.


The First Order has many ways of getting/recruiting/making storm troopers.
 
nemss said:
I doubt Luke gets killed off. Pretty sure the only reason Han was killed off is because Ford has been wanting that since Jedi. He already sacrificed himself for his son, it wouldn't make much sense for Luke to do the same for Rey.

Besides, from the way Luke looks at Rey, he does not seem to be happy to see her. Probably because she's Palpatines granddaughter.
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Luke barely matters to the plot at this stage - so it doesn't really matter whether they kill him or not. They might as well keep him alive and spare the screentime for more important things.
 
Jarmel said:
Unless Finn's parents are important, I'm not even sure why they did the whole 'raised from birth' thing. It would have worked just as well if Finn joined when he was younger.
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It's explained in Servants of the Empire. The FO is trying to create the perfect Stormtroopers, with the loyalty of clonetroopers but the genetic diversity of Stormtroopers. To explicitly got this idea from the Jedi raising children since birth, funny enough.
 
VistraNorrez said:
If Rey is a Kenobi, then I get the feeling they will ship her and Kylo. Then the next trilogy can be about a child that is both Skywalker and Kenobi. Talk about a chosen one.
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Why wait? What if Rey is the offspring of both Luke and a female Kenobi...perhaps Obi-Wan's niece or something? Is there anything in the cannon that describes the power of an offspring from two force families?
 
I went to see TFA last night with my sister. It was amazing, so many good things to say about this movie. Can't really pinpoint anything wrong with it, except "another death star". I love how the FO is really ruthless and kylo ren was terrifying (until the final scene). I loved this movie, it was what this franchise needed. My sister really liked Rey, and how she was dressed (i.e. not half naked) and how poe and finn were total bros, and leia being cool and wise to Rey.
This movie was great. Better than the prequels for sure (ep3 being the only trully good one).
 
The more I let this film marinate in my mind the more the ending bugs me. At this point I am underwhelmed with Kylo. For your main villian to get his ass pounded at the end of the 1st of 3 movies doesn't excite me. Yeah he had a rough day. Shot in the gut, worn down and injured by Finn. But Rey absolutely dominated him. some of you draw parallels to Vader at the end of ANH. Naw. Vader got "sucker punched" by Solo while he was preoccupied by Luke in the trench. No one doubts that if Vader was focused on Solo that that Han and Chewie would be dead. At this point I am not even sure if when he is fully trained in healed that he would match "Uber Rey". He is no longer threatening as a villian. The same goes for Phasma. I would have preferred Rey and Finn tag teamed an injured Kylo and the heroes getting a Pyrrhic victory where they were still terrified of Kylo and he had a grudging respect for them because of their 'lucky' win. They should have saved his ass kicking for episode IX That said I liked the film. Just not a fan of OP Uber Rey. I loved her in the first 90% of the film. The next film better be DARK. Kylo and Phasma better be giving out some hell fire ass whooping s in the next movie or they will be no better than Bobba and Darth Maul.
 
Cimarron said:
The more I let this film marinate in my mind the more the ending bugs me. At this point I am underwhelmed with Kylo. For your main villian to get his ass pounded at the end of the 1st of 3 movies doesn't excite me. Yeah he had a rough day. Shot in the gut, worn down and injured by Finn. But Rey absolutely dominated him. some of you draw parallels to Vader at the end of ANH. Naw. Vader got "sucker punched" by Solo while he was preoccupied by Luke in the trench. No one doubts that if Vader was focused on Solo that that Han and Chewie would be dead. At this point I am not even sure if when he is fully trained in healed that he would match "Uber Rey". He is no longer threatening as a villian. The same goes for Phasma. I would have preferred Rey and Finn tag teamed an injured Kylo and the heroes getting a Pyrrhic victory where they were still terrified of Kylo and he had a grudging respect for them because of their 'lucky' win. They should have saved his ass kicking for episode IX That said I liked the film. Just not a fan of OP Uber Rey. I loved her in the first 90% of the film. The next film better be DARK. Kylo and Phasma better be giving out some hell fire ass whooping s in the next movie or they will be no better than Bobba and Darth Maul.
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Kylo was the best villain. And I don't want a super DARK movie. Star Wars is supposed to be fun.
 
Cimarron said:
The more I let this film marinate in my mind the more the ending bugs me. At this point I am underwhelmed with Kylo. For your main villian to get his ass pounded at the end of the 1st of 3 movies doesn't excite me. Yeah he had a rough day. Shot in the gut, worn down and injured by Finn. But Rey absolutely dominated him. some of you draw parallels to Vader at the end of ANH. Naw. Vader got "sucker punched" by Solo while he was preoccupied by Luke in the trench. No one doubts that if Vader was focused on Solo that that Han and Chewie would be dead. At this point I am not even sure if when he is fully trained in healed that he would match "Uber Rey". He is no longer threatening as a villian. The same goes for Phasma. I would have preferred Rey and Finn tag teamed an injured Kylo and the heroes getting a Pyrrhic victory where they were still terrified of Kylo and he had a grudging respect for them because of their 'lucky' win. They should have saved his ass kicking for episode IX That said I liked the film. Just not a fan of OP Uber Rey. I loved her in the first 90% of the film. The next film better be DARK. Kylo and Phasma better be giving out some hell fire ass whooping s in the next movie or they will be no better than Bobba and Darth Maul.
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In this movie, Kylo was meant to be underwhelming as a villain. It's one of the things that the movie does not rehash from A New Hope (which I'm glad for) so that we don't just have another Darth Vader.

I'm 100% positive that Kylo will be more of a threat in the next movie once he's completed his training. That, and I assume that Snoke will play a much larger role in Episode VIII. I bet we'll learn more about the Knights of Ren as a whole too.

It wasn't so much that Rey was overpowered, rather, she was just really lucky. In a fair fight, Kylo Ren (who still isn't fully trained, mind you) would've defeated her.
 
The One Who Knocks said:
All of these questions are answered explicitly in the movie.

EDIT: Honestly, I really don't know how much they could have made this any more explicit; his motivations were the most explicitly stated out of any of the new lead characters. The only way I can imagine it being made any more clear is if during the attack on Maz's everything becomes static and silent as time is frozen, Han turns to Finn and asks "Finn, you are killing your fellow stormtroopers, your escape route has been prevented" and Finn turns into the camera and states "I know Han, I have to escape the first order and protect Rey" while a big neon sign appears above his head and states "I must escape the first order".
Click to expand...

This post cracked me up because it's so true. I feel like at least half of the questions people have are answered just by.. watching and actually paying attention to the movie. It's like people just want everything completely spelled out in some sort of exposition rather than through actual natural dialogue, expressions, and actions.

People complaining about Kylo Ren at the end of the movie don't seem to "get it" imo.
 
Jarmel said:
Unless Finn's parents are important, I'm not even sure why they did the whole 'raised from birth' thing. It would have worked just as well if Finn joined when he was younger.
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It's easier for writers to just wave away things by making characters into some kind of orphan. Orphan trope is so over used in fiction, but it's obviously easy way out of developing a full back story
 
Theodoricos said:
In this movie, Kylo was meant to be underwhelming as a villain. It's one of the things that the movie does not rehash from A New Hope (which I'm glad for) so that we don't just have another Darth Vader.

I'm 100% positive that Kylo will be more of a threat in the next movie once he's completed his training. That, and I assume that Snoke will play a much larger role in Episode VIII. I bet we'll learn more about the Knights of Ren as a whole too.

It wasn't so much that Rey was overpowered, rather, she was just really lucky. In a fair fight, Kylo Ren (who still isn't fully trained, mind you) would've defeated her.
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I think they took the wrong path. 30 years later, Star Wars needed another iconic villain to captivate the audience like Vader did...There was nothing compelling about Kylo to me, but then I'm a father with two kids, I get enough spazzing out each day :)

The funny thing is all the marketing up until the movie was painting him as the iconic villain also. I kinda feel lied to :)
 
Cimarron said:
The more I let this film marinate in my mind the more the ending bugs me. At this point I am underwhelmed with Kylo. For your main villian to get his ass pounded at the end of the 1st of 3 movies doesn't excite me. Yeah he had a rough day. Shot in the gut, worn down and injured by Finn. But Rey absolutely dominated him. some of you draw parallels to Vader at the end of ANH. Naw. Vader got "sucker punched" by Solo while he was preoccupied by Luke in the trench. No one doubts that if Vader was focused on Solo that that Han and Chewie would be dead. At this point I am not even sure if when he is fully trained in healed that he would match "Uber Rey". He is no longer threatening as a villian. The same goes for Phasma. I would have preferred Rey and Finn tag teamed an injured Kylo and the heroes getting a Pyrrhic victory where they were still terrified of Kylo and he had a grudging respect for them because of their 'lucky' win. They should have saved his ass kicking for episode IX That said I liked the film. Just not a fan of OP Uber Rey. I loved her in the first 90% of the film. The next film better be DARK. Kylo and Phasma better be giving out some hell fire ass whooping s in the next movie or they will be no better than Bobba and Darth Maul.
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It's a similar ending to A New Hope. Basically it's setting everything up for Episode 8 rather than trying to wrap stuff up.

The political stage is set. The character stage is set. The character arcs are set.

Episode 8 will be all execution.

Rey is going to get super powerful, Kylo is going to get super powerful, and shit is going to get fucked in terms of warzones.
 
Well, I'm 9 episodes deep into Clone Wars so far.

It's okay. Hopefully it gets a bit better. Feels pretty campy so far. Bad guys try plan, plan fails, big bad escapes and yells "Fun'gah! Foiled, again!" or something...
 
3rdman said:
Why wait? What if Rey is the offspring of both Luke and a female Kenobi...perhaps Obi-Wan's niece or something? Is there anything in the cannon that describes the power of an offspring from two force families?
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cJlBUVL.gif
 
3rdman said:
Why wait? What if Rey is the offspring of both Luke and a female Kenobi...perhaps Obi-Wan's niece or something? Is there anything in the cannon that describes the power of an offspring from two force families?
Click to expand...

Now I'm starting to wonder if there are certified Muggle force-users in the Star Wars canon. Would be kind of refreshing. Down with the Jedi nobility.
 
Kor of Memory said:
Well, I'm 9 episodes deep into Clone Wars so far.

It's okay. Hopefully it gets a bit better. Feels pretty campy so far. Bad guys try plan, plan fails, big bad escapes and yells "Fun'gah! Foiled, again!" or something...
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It gets better. Season 1 is pretty much universally regarded as the weakest, since they were still feeling their way around things.
 
d1rtn4p said:
I think they took the wrong path. 30 years later, Star Wars needed another iconic villain to captivate the audience like Vader did...There was nothing compelling about Kylo to me, but then I'm a father with two kids, I get enough spazzing out each day :)

The funny thing is all the marketing up until the movie was painting him as the iconic villain also. I kinda feel lied to :)
Click to expand...

Well, they took a gamble. Whether they succeeded is of course up to personal preference, but I think they did. I liked that there were still surprises like that in this otherwise traditional Star Wars movie.

Perhaps in theory it could've worked better if there was an actual Darth Vader equivalent here, but I simply don't think any villain in the franchise could be as iconic as he is. If they tried to imitate him, it would've most likely been a failed attempt, so we'd just be stuck with a Darth Vader 0.5. It was a better decision to go into a different direction with Kylo Ren in my opinion.
 
d1rtn4p said:
I think they took the wrong path. 30 years later, Star Wars needed another iconic villain to captivate the audience like Vader did...There was nothing compelling about Kylo to me, but then I'm a father with two kids, I get enough spazzing out each day :)

The funny thing is all the marketing up until the movie was painting him as the iconic villain also. I kinda feel lied to :)
Click to expand...

Given how the movie is performing, I don't think TFA needs Vader like you believe it does.
 
Kor of Memory said:
Well, I'm 9 episodes deep into Clone Wars so far.

It's okay. Hopefully it gets a bit better. Feels pretty campy so far. Bad guys try plan, plan fails, big bad escapes and yells "Fun'gah! Foiled, again!" or something...
Click to expand...

oh i just skipped season 1 altogether i think. saw a few choice arcs from season 2 and then really dug into during season 3.

i'm at the start of season 5 and it's orders of magnitude at this point. the show continues to get better as it goes on.
 
Croatoan said:
Given how the movie is performing, I don't think TFA needs Vader like you believe it does.
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Also, can you even imagine the complaints the movie would have if it had a vader clone? It already is pretty close to a new hope as it is, there would probably be blood at that point, haha
 
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