[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up

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meanspartan said:
But in ANH, the whole climax was Luke blowing up the death star. In this one, destroying the superweapon was actually kind of a subplot, a plot device used to set up the REAL climax, which was Han Solo's death and then the duels, and that was nothing like ANH.

Superficially, yes, the film copies a lot of ANH. But if you dig even a little bit deeper, I think it is more original than it will ever get credit for probably.
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Yeah, the final battle in ANH is actually Luke vs. Death Star. Despite the nice moment where he listens to Obi-Wan's ghost and trust the Force, he only manages to pull it off because Han shows up at exactly the right moment. It was a great feel-good moment by '70s standards, where the good guy wins because he has friends.

TFA is totally different, in that the final battle is Rey vs. Ren. She has a similar moment where she trusts the Force, but she doesn't have a ghost whispering in her ear and she isn't ultimately saved through a stroke of good fortune but through her submission to the will of the Force.

It's a much more powerful close to the story, and indeed a much better one by storytelling standards. And it's one that has literally no precedent in the Star Wars universe.
 
Tesseract said:
can we see some new force effects, please

the back and forth between ben and rey was too real

the heartbeat was cool tho
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I have a strange feeling that Trevorrow is gonna do that ridiculous "pull a Star Destroyer down" thing from Force Unleashed
 
Finally saw this and it blew away my somewhat low expectations after reading the reviews. All of the new characters are great and lovable, Harrison Ford did the best job acting in like two decades, and it managed to surprise me even though I think I read the plot spoilers a few months ago.

Only complaints were that Brienne was barely in it (I'm sure she'll be back in the next one since she didn't die on screen and Finn needs someone to fight) and that R2 was stupid and served no real purpose. I don't know why he went in and out of a robot coma but Rey totally could have just used the force or whatever to find Luke. I also didn't know why there was a map to Luke in the Empire records (???) and the new music wasn't great.

But omg I've never liked any of the evil dudes with light sabers in these movies (and let's include Boba Fett too) but Kylo Ren was awesome. That's what Anakin should have been like in Episode 3! I like how they showed that the qualities associated with the Dark Side make you a creepy weirdo that nobody would want to talk to, I loved his hair, and I loved how when fighting people he starting throwing haymakers and punching his chest. That might have been my favorite light saber battle in any of these movies for that reason too.

If the next one focuses a lot on the new characters (hopefully Chewie is marginalized), I think it'll be great. I'm counting Kylo Ren as a protagonist now since he'll obviously going to be good by the end, so if we don't see parallel training montages between Rey/Luke and Rylo Ken/Snoke I'll be severely disappointed.

Also, the beginning of this movie right up through when they meet Han might have been perfectly done.
 
LookAtMeGo said:
Dafaq does the bolded have to do with you liking Creed and Mad Max?
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The movie has a new-ness factor that is entralling to a lot of people. I see it as the safe movie that a company that just bought a property for $4 billion needed to make.

It was exactly what it needed to be for the audience , including a ton of ANH nostalgia tick boxes checked.

MM and CREED, by comparison, were not that for me. They felt like the logical progression to the originals, the while not being a complete retread, ala the Death Star and the trench run. Creed had parallels to Rocky for sure but MM was its own movie.

TFA relies heavily on the viewers having seen at least the OT for a lot of the throwbacks to work. MM and CREED didn't.
 
Theodoricos said:
This. Finally someone said it.

If people hold up TFA to the standards that they hold the original trilogy, then there's a lot of flaws that the OT shares with this movie. Star Wars has always been a classic, traditional hero's journey that is primarily character-driven, and the movies shine in how well they're executed, not because they have deep or intricate storylines.
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Yup....folks expecting VIII that dives deep into the lore for explanations will be deeply disappointed, IMO.
 
Titanoboa said:
Also, the beginning of this movie right up through when they meet Han might have been perfectly done.
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I agree so much with this. Rivals any perfect stretch in any Star Wars film. Just perfect.

I don't think Kylo will necessarily be good by the end of the trilogy.
 
MBison said:
I agree so much with this. Rivals any perfect stretch in any Star Wars film. Just perfect.

I don't think Kylo will necessarily be good by the end of the trilogy.
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That's a fair point considering what happened. I just want to see that training, they can't have Thanos tease it like that and not follow up on it you know?

But yeah, super super good. Any minor complaints I have with the film pretty much started with the holographic chess board on the Falcon, but I don't think anything before that could have been done better.

I think I loved Kylo Ren so much because he sucks big time and he knows it.
 
Tesseract said:
can we see some new force effects, please

the back and forth between ben and rey was too real

the heartbeat was cool tho
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Daisy Ridley made a remarkable debut but I think JJ was like "I'm not turning the camera off until I get The Deer Hunter russian roulette scene from you two" there hahaha
 
Here's a question about that ending saber fight which has me wondering if people are misinterpreting things..

Clearly, Kylo has history/knows Rey. He throws a saber fit when they lost BB-8, but when he finds out it was "some girl" he kills a guy over it. Chances are, Luke had to send Rey away because she was showing more aptitude than Luke's students, and with Ben already unstable, it threw him over the edge. Maybe he threatened her and Luke sent her away temporarily?

Anyways, recall in ROTJ, Vader was toying with Luke much like Kylo was toying with Finn/Rey. It was only until they gave into their anger that they started overpowering Kylo/Vader. Look at Rey's expressions, she's pissed and starts getting the upper hand. Kylo loses confidence and is all over the place emotionally that he can't focus.

Sure, Rey starts calm and focused, making a connection with the Force, but it seemed the more the fight continued, the more dark side creeped in. And they said that Vader was strong in Ben, the same would be true for Rey theoretically, even moreso if she's Luke's kid.

TDLR: Did Rey win the fight because she started connecting with the Dark Side like Luke did in ROTJ?
 
ProudCanuck said:
I have said this before but if you want to consider Rey has Mary Sue then you might as well consider Luke as an even bigger one. He evaded vader in the space battle and curved the shot to destroy the death star. IN TFA, Even Ren and Chewbacca were able to injure Ren. The notion is pretty clear that Rey is more force sensitive than Ren
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The whole Mary Sue discussion is asinine. I posted this in that locked thread:

How anybody can talk about Rey being a Mary Sue and then mention the prequels is beyond me. They star perfect little Anakin who was immaculately conceived, is the most powerful force user ever, can build his own robots and racing vehicles, pilot a ship, etc. That's just when he's 9 years old and despite being a slave has an adorably cute face and perfect blond hair.

Rey is much less of a bullshit character than Anakin.
 
MMarston said:
I have a strange feeling that Trevorrow is gonna do that ridiculous "pull a Star Destroyer down" thing from Force Unleashed
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Kylo Ren will do it, but he'll forget about gravity, and he'll pull it down on himself. That's how he dies. Once a jobber, always a jobber.
 
Cth said:
Here's a question about that ending saber fight which has me wondering if people are misinterpreting things..

Clearly, Kylo has history/knows Rey. He throws a saber fit when they lost BB-8, but when he finds out it was "some girl" he kills a guy over it. Chances are, Luke had to send Rey away because she was showing more aptitude than Luke's students, and with Ben already unstable, it threw him over the edge. Maybe he threatened her and Luke sent her away temporarily?

Anyways, recall in ROTJ, Vader was toying with Luke much like Kylo was toying with Finn/Rey. It was only until they gave into their anger that they started overpowering Kylo/Vader. Look at Rey's expressions, she's pissed and starts getting the upper hand. Kylo loses confidence and is all over the place emotionally that he can't focus.

Sure, Rey starts calm and focused, making a connection with the Force, but it seemed the more the fight continued, the more dark side creeped in. And they said that Vader was strong in Ben, the same would be true for Rey theoretically, even moreso if she's Luke's kid.

TDLR: Did Rey win the fight because she started connecting with the Dark Side like Luke did in ROTJ?
Click to expand...

No. She won the fight because she let the Force lead her.

Kylo mentioning that he can "show her the ways of the Force" reminds her that the Force is not just a source of power to be tapped into, but a guide. We're supposed to walk away with the impression that formal training is worthless compared to the guidance of the Force.

That's why she mouths "the Force," that's why she meditates and uses zen breathing techniques prior to coming back and getting the upper hand in the fight.
 
ProudCanuck said:
I have said this before but if you want to consider Rey has Mary Sue then you might as well consider Luke as an even bigger one. He evaded vader in the space battle and curved the shot to destroy the death star. IN TFA, Even Ren and Chewbacca were able to injure Ren. The notion is pretty clear that Rey is more force sensitive than Ren
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Agree, but when was it implied that Luke actually manipulated the torpedos' flight path? I just always assumed that his use of the force took the place of the targeting computer.
 
Titanoboa said:
If the next one focuses a lot on the new characters (hopefully Chewie is marginalized), I think it'll be great. I'm counting Kylo Ren as a protagonist now since he'll obviously going to be good by the end, so if we don't see parallel training montages between Rey/Luke and Rylo Ken/Snoke I'll be severely disappointed.
.
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Maybe, but I think a journey with Rylo down the dark side...not ending with redemption would be very powerful. We went from a misguided young adult not understanding his power...and through choices and temptation becoming outright evil would be a fantastic journey to mirror that of the hero's rise....

That last fight would be epic. Rey in a 20 minute long light saber battle (after Rylo kills Snoke...the last remaining sith)....kills Rylo....But Rey's understanding the force and the balance inherent with life kills herself (or is mortally wounded by Rylo...and explains why this has to happen).....Force is restored back to balance as no master of dark or light exists in Credits roll. The Skywalker Saga ends....

Next set of Star Wars has totally new characters...new stuff. and a new awakening...as life is always in flux.

(No way Disney goes this route, but that's how you end the damn 9 movie series).
 
Leia or Luke needs to find out who keeps selling the materials to make the Death Stars? Some venture capitalist is making bank pushing the same weapon over and over

Death Star lobby needs to be reined in
 
Cth said:
Here's a question about that ending saber fight which has me wondering if people are misinterpreting things..

Clearly, Kylo has history/knows Rey. He throws a saber fit when they lost BB-8, but when he finds out it was "some girl" he kills a guy over it. Chances are, Luke had to send Rey away because she was showing more aptitude than Luke's students, and with Ben already unstable, it threw him over the edge. Maybe he threatened her and Luke sent her away temporarily?

Anyways, recall in ROTJ, Vader was toying with Luke much like Kylo was toying with Finn/Rey. It was only until they gave into their anger that they started overpowering Kylo/Vader. Look at Rey's expressions, she's pissed and starts getting the upper hand. Kylo loses confidence and is all over the place emotionally that he can't focus.

Sure, Rey starts calm and focused, making a connection with the Force, but it seemed the more the fight continued, the more dark side creeped in. And they said that Vader was strong in Ben, the same would be true for Rey theoretically, even moreso if she's Luke's kid.

TDLR: Did Rey win the fight because she started connecting with the Dark Side like Luke did in ROTJ?
Click to expand...

He can't possibly know she's force sensitive beforehand because he's stunned when she blocks his interrogation. And he doesn't really take any extra precautions capturing her.
 
LegendofLex said:
TFA is totally different, in that the final battle is Rey vs. Ren. She has a similar moment where she trusts the Force, but she doesn't have a ghost whispering in her ear and she isn't ultimately saved through a stroke of good fortune but through her submission to the will of the Force.

It's a much more powerful close to the story, and indeed a much better one by storytelling standards. And it's one that has literally no precedent in the Star Wars universe.
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Rey does hear a disembodied voice in her ear tho. And that voice comes from a stranger who said like one sentence about the Force to her. Why is that more emotionally resonant than Obi-Wan?

Ushojax said:
How anybody can talk about Rey being a Mary Sue and then mention the prequels is beyond me. They star perfect little Anakin who was immaculately conceived, is the most powerful force user ever, can build his own robots and racing vehicles, pilot a ship, etc. That's just when he's 9 years old and despite being a slave has an adorably cute face and perfect blond hair.

Rey is much less of a bullshit character than Anakin.
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Is this even useful though. Does anybody in the world like Anakin's immaculate conception or his space-base destroying "woohoos"? We don't use the term Mary Sue about Anakin because there are richer terms for him: catastrophe, complete embarrassment, shit-sniffer. Why call TPM Anakin a Mary Sue when I spend most of my trying not to talk about him at all? Rey is close to cool but in some ways disappointing. Mary Sue is a way to struggle with that, but that's not a dichotomy Ani presents: he's just a little shit.
 
Brakke said:
Rey does hear a disembodied voice in her ear tho. And that voice comes from a stranger who said like one sentence about the Force to her. Why is that more emotionally resonant than Obi-Wan?
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I honestly don't remember this happening, even after two viewings.

I didn't catch the Obi-Wan/Yoda cameo lines either though.
 
Right, I specifically say she calmed/connected to the Force, but the expressions on her face, etc all echo ROTJ's (as does the third act as people have said over and over) fight.

She didn't REMAIN calm/zen-like throughout the fight is the point I'm making.

As the fight went on, the more things risked spiraling out of control. It's one reason why Yoda and Obi Wan didn't want Luke to face Vader because his anger could cause things to fall apart.

She was angry at when Ben did to Finn, to Han, etc. and was unleashing on the guy, even slashing up his face, which isn't exactly screaming "light side".
 
LegendofLex said:
No. She won the fight because she let the Force lead her.

Kylo mentioning that he can "show her the ways of the Force" reminds her that the Force is not just a source of power to be tapped into, but a guide. We're supposed to walk away with the impression that formal training is worthless compared to the guidance of the Force.

That's why she mouths "the Force," that's why she meditates and uses zen breathing techniques prior to coming back and getting the upper hand in the fight.
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I wouldn't say that exactly. The film doesn't go against what Obi-Wan said to Luke in episode four:

"Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."
"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially. But it also obeys your commands."

A Jedi still needs training, which is why Snoke wanted to complete Kylo Ren's. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are untrained in that fight, but she came out on top regardless because she had the advantage of not being mentally screwed up, shot by a bowcaster and having fought with Finn right before that.
 
levious said:
Agree, but when was it implied that Luke actually manipulated the torpedos' flight path? I just always assumed that his use of the force took the place of the targeting computer.
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You are correct. It was all about Luke's 'instinct', not guiding the objects directly with the force.
 
ryutaro's mama said:
The movie has a new-ness factor that is entralling to a lot of people. I see it as the safe movie that a company that just bought a property for $4 billion needed to make.

It was exactly what it needed to be for the audience , including a ton of ANH nostalgia tick boxes checked.

MM and CREED, by comparison, were not that for me. They felt like the logical progression to the originals, the while not being a complete retread, ala the Death Star and the trench run. Creed had parallels to Rocky for sure but MM was its own movie.

TFA relies heavily on the viewers having seen at least the OT for a lot of the throwbacks to work. MM and CREED didn't.
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Yeah. I loved Mad Max.. still need to see Creed and I bet it will be one of my top movies for sure. I just still think TFA has brought life back into the SW franchise even if it was safe. Its still refreshing and does make up for the let down that has been Star Wars movies for almost 2 decades. I just dont see it as "wearing goggles" like you said, it delivered what most wanted from a new SW movie IMO. Mad Max worked, it somehow got away without really having a throwback to the interceptor but it nailed the atmosphere. It was also a reimagining, not a direct sequel. No need for it borrow too much from the OG Max. TFA was almost a reimagining while being a direct sequel which I think is pretty impressive.
Cant wait to see Creed.
 
Ishida said:
Wait what!? Padme dying? I only heard Obi Wan, but I missed Padme and Yoda...
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There was definitely Yoda, and a woman screaming which I figured was padme because who else could it be attracted her to the basement room in the first place. Yoda's voice was just a clip from Empire though I think.
 
WadiumArcadium said:
I'm not. You just come across as a douche when commenting on others opinions.
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By making things personal, it just goes to show how attached you are to a piece of entertainment, and unfit to have proper discussion about it.

If I say this movie is weak, it doesn't mean you are weak. You understand that right?
 
Cth said:
Right, I specifically say she calmed/connected to the Force, but the expressions on her face, etc all echo ROTJ's (as does the third act as people have said over and over) fight.

She didn't REMAIN calm/zen-like throughout the fight is the point I'm making.

As the fight went on, the more things risked spiraling out of control. It's one reason why Yoda and Obi Wan didn't want Luke to face Vader because his anger could cause things to fall apart.

She was angry at when Ben did to Finn, to Han, etc. and was unleashing on the guy, even slashing up his face, which isn't exactly screaming "light side".
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I completely agree with you. It's extremely reminiscent of Return of the Jedi, as you've mentioned. Every swing she makes is aggressive, she's clearly intent on killing him, and she's very much drawing on her anger towards him. She's being guided by the force, but she's drawing on her anger towards him.
 
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