[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up

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The problem with people thinking Rey is a Mary Sue is that some forget that she doesn't have the same starting point in The Force Awakens that Luke does in A New Hope. Luke's been raised as a farmer while Rey is a scavenger who's had to survive on her own for a while (and might have had prior Jedi training too).

That, and she was really lucky in her fight against Kylo Ren, who was barely functioning at that point.
 
Dude, symbolism is all over Episode VII and in particular all over Kylo Ren and especially the scene on the bridge. Everything we see in most epic fantasy films is structured the way it is for a precise, usually character-centric reason. Adam Driver mentioned in a recent interview how the fact that Kylo's mask has slits for eyes is supposed to be significant.

This is a film; people need to interpret it like one.



The story didn't have to need him to lose.

Symbolic =/= good symbolism. Adam Sandler's movie have symbolism and so does Miley Cyrus' music videos. He needed to lose cause it sets up his extra training and good triumphs over evil.

You're thinking too hard about it. This isn't No Country for Old Men.
 
She knew where to go in a Star Destroyer to find parts that were worth trading for. She knows machines. It's literally the first scene she's in.

Yeah, sort of... I just didn't connect scavenging with actually building. They had a short scene where she was kind of cleaning one of the parts? Maybe that could've been her tinkering with her speeder, instead. Dunno.
 
I have a few simple story bits that you can likely fill in for me:

The intro text scroll states that Poe is visiting an "old friend." Who is the older man in the tent who has the map leading to skywalker? Why does he have this map?

Why doesn't R2D2 have the complete map in its memory?

These weren't really problems for me, I just feel like I missed a few things while watching the film (or maybe they were just brushed aside).
The map R2 has was downloaded from the Death Star in ANH. It's what remains of the galaxy map the Jedi in the PT had. During the fall of the Jedi, they erased the locations of the ancient Jedi Temples to protect them. Somehow (maybe from Yoda?) Luke obtained a backup of the deleted portion of the map. He left it in safe hands so that it wouldn't be completely lost if he lived the rest of his days and died at the temple. Leia (perhaps through the force?) learns that the map is on Jakku and sends Poe to claim it for her.

Also, apparently B-88 told R2 he had a piece of a map and asked if he happened to have the rest when they first met. R2 was in low power mode but slowly processed the request. The next time B-88 was nearby he reactivated to respond to said request.

It makes sense for B-88 to ask R2 this question because Astromechs are used to navigate hyperspace jumps for small ships without their own AI (like X-wings.)
 
People seem fixated on the idea that Kylo Ren getting shot by Chewie was the reason he lost the lightsaber fight.

That's not it at all.

What really happened is that he's a broken shell of a man, going up against someone whose scars are much less deep, who is learning to tap into her true self for the first time and doing so out of need and not out of desire for power.

His bowcaster wound is significant, of course - it's literally the first actual thing that happens after he kills his father - but it's a physical representation of the damage he has done to himself. Him struggling with the pain of the wound during the fight? Once again, a symbol of what he's doing to himself to keep going.

"A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack"- Yoda.

I really like your line that she's tapping into her true power out of need and not desire like Kylo. Kylo desires it and his mind isn't clear at all. He's just dealt with a very emotional situation.

Rey on the other hand literally calms her mind and lets the force "guide' her if you will.
 
Gaf,
This is Disney we are talking about here. I sincerely doubt they are going to directly address any sort of homosexuality in Star Wars...They might though. Who knows? Wouldn't be opposed if they did, wouldn't be opposed if they didn't.

Chewie hitting on the nurse is about the closest you're going to get to any non-traditional relationships under Disney :)
 
Not necessarily Coruscant, but definitely signifies high/core world culture. Places like Naboo use it because it's fancy, and Tarkin forced himself to use it so that he wouldn't be ridiculed for his frontier world upbringing (this is actually the in-universe explanation for why he has a super fancy accent, with the trills, because he's overdoing it). Obi-Wan isn't from Coruscant - he's from Stewjon - but since he was raised in the Jedi Temple, he picked the accent up from someone there. Although this doesn't apply to everyone, as many Jedi obviously do not have the core world accent, like Yoda, Mace, Ahsoka, etc.

Fascinating, thank you.

It sounds like we can assume Rey's background is one of a certain affluence then.
 
Rey was cool but I just really hope they dont go with another "chosen one" horse shit.

Prophecies is/was vague, so it could still come into play.

If Anakin was mean to bring balance, then through his actions, all other force users were killed/destroyed, and he brings about 1 Light user and 1 Dark user through his own progeny.

Ta-Da! "Balance"
 
i think its funny how hung up people are on how unrealistic it is for rey to be good at all that stuff
isnt half the point of the intro to show she's capable of shit? she survives on that planet, alone
its not much of a stretch that she learned other languages in order to communicate with various aliens when trading
its not much of a stretch that she's handy. she has a speeder bike thing. obviously has to work on it
they show her bow staff a TON of times, and even show her using it. so she knows how to fight

you're thinking on life logic, not movie logic

a character in a movie just isnt as fun if there's no struggle, no failing, no overcoming. It's not an arc.

people arent bothered by it because "it doesnt make sense", they're bothered by it beucase it's just not as interesting as it could be

im sure she has repressed childhood jedi training or whatever. It's pretty obvious. It still doesnt help the arc of the film cause "making sense" doesnt translate to "fun and engaging"

but, again, im sure they'll have to do something
 
People seem fixated on the idea that Kylo Ren getting shot by Chewie was the reason he lost the lightsaber fight.

That's not it at all.

What really happened is that he's a broken shell of a man, going up against someone whose scars are much less deep, who is learning to tap into her true self for the first time and doing so out of need and not out of desire for power.

His bowcaster wound is significant, of course - it's literally the first actual thing that happens after he kills his father - but it's a physical representation of the damage he has done to himself. Him struggling with the pain of the wound during the fight? Once again, a symbol of what he's doing to himself to keep going.

I absolutely love this interpretation.
 
Still a fair one though.


Nobody really bats an eye when Tom Cruise does it in MI
Sure they do. People have been making fun of the shit that happens in Mission Impossible movies for years (starting with 2). I found Poe Dameron's abilities a lot more ridiculous than Rey's, but can see the argument that she's a Mary Sue.
 
Kylo Ren got hit with that bowcaster so hard he literally jumped in time and managed to catch them ahead going out of starkiller base
 
Eh not really. They didnt start with that garbage until the prequels came out. I cant remember a single instance in the original trilogy where they talk about a "chosen one" prophecy.

Yeah, I'm really hoping they ignore that in the sequel trilogy. That had no place in the Star Wars setting.

Though I'm concerned that Lor San Tekka mentioned "the balance of the Force", which is also a concept that originated in the prequels.
 
If people are that bothered--it's not too much of a leap to say that Anakin Skywalkers lightsaber acted as a sort of conduit or something of a jedi artifact/holocron.

It already served as a means of giving her a vision of events that she really had no business knowing. It could have been something of an XP boost/lightning rod to her, accelerating her grasp of the force near instantly.
 
Kylo Ren got hit with that bowcaster so hard he literally jumped in time and managed to catch them ahead going out of starkiller base

My super boring answer for how that was possible is he just knew about a quicker path having lived on the planet for who knows how long. He just knew the forest better than they did. Easy.
 
oh, yeah, also (I keep forgetting I couldnt talk about this movie since I saw it till today)

Maz Kanata was a big disappointment

I just found her to be pretty boring, both in design and attitude, too yoda-like, and even the performance seemed like a pretty big waste of Lupita

what's more, the big and super cool reliance on practical effects actually made the CG characters (both maz and snoke) to jump out even more than I was expecting. It was surprisingly jarring, thought it would mesh better.
 
you're thinking on life logic, not movie logic

a character in a movie just isnt as fun if there's no struggle, no failing, no overcoming. It's not an arc.

people arent bothered by it because "it doesnt make sense", they're bothered by it beucase it's just not as interesting as it could be

im sure she has repressed childhood jedi training or whatever. It's pretty obvious. It still doesnt help the arc of the film cause "making sense" doesnt translate to "fun and engaging"

but, again, im sure they'll have to do something

Jesus Christ, perhaps those people should actually watch the damn film. Then maybe they'd actually focus on what's going on, and note shit like Rey FAILING to use the force on the Stormtrooper at first. But that'd be too much work, clearly.
 
Rey on the other hand literally calms her mind and lets the force "guide' her if you will.

On the other hand..

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=190176869&postcount=9783

“It is you,” Ren murmured.

His words unsettled her: Not for the first time, he seemed to know more about her than she did about herself. But she had no time to ponder his comment, nor was she inclined to do so anyway; she was too consumed with rage. Holding the haft of the lightsaber in both hands, she ignited the beam— and charged.

[..]

Though Ren was bigger and stronger than Rey, their struggle had nothing to do with physical size. What she lacked in mass, she made up for in ferocity.

For a while she actually drove him backward, until he regained his self-assurance and in turn pressed her. The fight continued to shift back and forth; first he gained the advantage, then an enraged Rey took it back.

There was a vast rumbling, as of a continent sighing, and a gigantic chunk of forest behind Rey simply collapsed downward, leaving her fighting on the edge of a cliff so high that the newly formed surface below could not be seen through the rising cloud of dust.

Ren held his lightsaber, poised to strike. “I could kill you right now. But there is another way.”

Breathing hard, Rey looked up in disgust at the man looming above her. “You’re a monster.”

“No. You need a teacher.” He was beseeching and insistent all at once. “I can show you the ways of the Force!”

Slowly she shook her head. “The Force?” That was what this was about? Instead of moving to defend herself, Rey closed her eyes. Ren hesitated, confused by her actions.

A long moment passed, in which Ren sensed a change in the air, a change in her. Then she opened her eyes and attacked, viciously, in a way she didn’t know she was capable of, striking again and again as Ren was slowly driven back. The flaring energy from the interacting lightsabers was more pronounced than ever in the flurry of her attack. And—Ren went down.

He was up again in an instant, but not in time to fully deflect a following blow from Rey’s weapon.

He succeeded in blocking it, but he still took the full force of the strike against the haft of his own lightsaber. The weapon went flying into the snow. Unarmed, he raised a hand and utilized the Force to fend off one slashing blow after another, until finally her fury penetrated his remaining defenses.

Taking a glancing blow to the head and chest, he went down, a prominent burn slashed across his face. Weakened, he reached out toward his lightsaber, trying to draw it to him.

One downward cut, she saw. One quick, final strike, and she could kill him. The landing lights of a shuttle appeared in the distance, coming over the trees in her direction. She had to make a decision, now.

Kill him, a voice inside her head said. It was amorphous, unidentifiable, raw. Pure vengeful emotion. So easy, she told herself. So quick.

She recoiled from it. From the dark side.
 
you're thinking on life logic, not movie logic

a character in a movie just isnt as fun if there's no struggle, no failing, no overcoming. It's not an arc.

people arent bothered by it because "it doesnt make sense", they're bothered by it beucase it's just not as interesting as it could be

im sure she has repressed childhood jedi training or whatever. It's pretty obvious. It still doesnt help the arc of the film cause "making sense" doesnt translate to "fun and engaging"

but, again, im sure they'll have to do something

She definitely struggles in the film, her struggles are just mental rather than physical, which is more interesting IMO.

She struggles with leaving Jakku, she struggles with accepting her fate and taking that lightsaber, she struggles with loneliness and wanting a family.

She clearly has an arc in this film, she goes from being afraid of leaving her home and losing out on a chance to meet her family, to finding a family in Han, in Finn, in the Resistance, and then seeking out Luke and forging her own path rather than waiting for something good to happen to her.
 
Prophecies is/was vague, so it could still come into play.

If Anakin was mean to bring balance, then through his actions, all other force users were killed/destroyed, and he brings about 1 Light user and 1 Dark user through his own progeny.

Ta-Da! "Balance"

The Skywalkers are a plague created by Plageuis, and the truth of this sent Luke into hermit mode and gave Ben meaning to his life.

Believe.
 
Jesus Christ, perhaps those people should actually watch the damn film. Then maybe they'd actually focus on what's going on, and note shit like Rey FAILING to use the force on the Stormtrooper at first. But that'd be too much work, clearly.

first of all how dare u

(what I actually mean is calm down, dude)

she's a slave on a slave planet that has never used the force (aaaaas far as we know so far) and she failed on it for 1 minute

the jedi mind trick constantly fails throughout all the other movies

she gets it on the second try

like, dude.. I get you but that's your argument?

regardless the jedi mind trick stuff isnt that big a deal. I thought the part where she resisted Kylo, for reference and counter-point, was really cool and maybe the best scene in the film.

She definitely struggles in the film, her struggles are just mental rather than physical, which is more interesting IMO.

She struggles with leaving Jakku, she struggles with accepting her fate and taking that lightsaber, she struggles with loneliness and wanting a family.

She clearly has an arc in this film, she goes from being afraid of leaving her home and losing out on a chance to meet her family, to finding a family in Han, in Finn, in the Resistance, and then seeking out Luke and forging her own path rather than waiting for something good to happen to her.

Sure. I think she overcame those mental struggles pretty quickly, and it'd be cooler to have a totally driven character mentally, but who lacks the experience to achieve what she knows she wants. like Luke?
 
My super boring answer for how that was possible is he just knew about a quicker path having lived on the planet for who knows how long. He just knew the forest better than they did. Easy.

By all appearances they ran in a literal straight line out of the facility.

But honestly this movie is really spatially unaware (shouldn't Finn be on the opposite side of the chasm from Rey after the lightsaber duel? how do space-wanderers have such shitty star charts that they can't match what appears to be 1/10th of the galaxy to known space? etc.), so I don't think we're supposed to think about it too much.
 
first of all how dare u

(what I actually mean is calm down, dude)

she's a slave on a slave planet that has never used the force and she failed on it for 1 minute

the jedi mind trick constantly fails throughout all the other movies

she gets it on the second try

like, dude.. I get you but that's your argument?

Yeah, I remember Obi-Wan failing to use the Jedi mind trick repeatedly. Didn't work on the Stormtroopers, or one the drug dealer in AOTC, or on Brian Blessed in TPM. And my point was that the entire argument is 'LUL, she picks this shit up with ease.' The film shows you that she fails to use the force properly on the Stormtrooper, and has to focus to use it.

And my argument is that people using the 'Mary Sue' rhetoric is genuinely irritating. People don't seem to actually know what the concept of a 'Mary Sue is,'
 
first of all how dare u

(what I actually mean is calm down, dude)

she's a slave on a slave planet that has never used the force and she failed on it for 1 minute

the jedi mind trick constantly fails throughout all the other movies

she gets it on the second try

like, dude.. I get you but that's your argument?

I don't think she's a slave, that guy she's turning in salvage to isn't her master. Scavenging just seems to be what most people do for a living on Jakku.
 
Yeah, sort of... I just didn't connect scavenging with actually building. They had a short scene where she was kind of cleaning one of the parts? Maybe that could've been her tinkering with her speeder, instead. Dunno.

Yeah, sure. It shouldnt have substituted that scene though. I loved that scene where she was cleaning. Her watching the old woman also cleaning, as if that was her potential future if she continued to wait for her family to come back for her.
 
the jedi mind trick constantly fails throughout all the other movies

It's actually used once by Ben and once by Luke in ANH and ROTJ respectively and it succeeds each time.

The only reason Qui-Gon's Jedi mind trick didn't work on Watto was because his species is resistant to it.
 
Here you go:
tumblr_nzmvp0eR6s1ukpsuto1_1280.jpg


And here's some more. The Rey/Finn/Poe shipping is unstoppable at this point:
tumblr_nzqetwXh4w1qfik62o1_540.jpg

tumblr_nzqn2erIHh1qdx71ao1_1280.png

lol do people actually need to make a romance out of everything these days
 
btw I keep bringing up her "secret jedi training" but I actually don't mean that bullshit prequel training

not like little kids being way too close to each other with lightsabers

I think the ultimate training is actually facing the dark side. Like Yoda told Luke. I can buy being somewhat cool with a lightsaber by lettin the force flow through ya (or whatever you wanna call it) but I think the issue of it doesnt come from the "BUT HOW?" but from the fact that it just makes the thing less interesting if it aint hard. It took Luke a while, man.
 
By all appearances they ran in a literal straight line out of the facility.

But honestly this movie is really spatially unaware (shouldn't Finn be on the opposite side of the chasm from Rey after the lightsaber duel? how do space-wanderers have such shitty star charts that they can't match what appears to be 1/10th of the galaxy to known space? etc.), so I don't think we're supposed to think about it too much.

Maybe that was their problem.

But yeah, you're right. It's not a question that actually demands answering. I just think it's fun to try anyway.
 
Yo what does Rey say when Han mentions Luke trying to find the Jedi Temple? She says it so fast and low that I've missed it twice. It's right before the "Its True." Line
 
Just got home from the theater! My first reaction is that it's a really good movie, but not a great one. I liked all the characters (although Finn not as much), and Rey especially. She will be a true badass by the third movie. Ren was mopy but not emo, and came across as a believable character in the end. Weirdly enough I though Han Solo came across a little flat, not like the charming rogue I remember. I was also a bit disappointed in the overall plot. It felt a bit rushed towards the end, and the Death Star plot felt like a footnote inserted to bring the characters together to tell the REAL story. Also, does anyone know why they made the plot so similar to Episode IV? I assume it's deliberate?

Could anyone enlighten me on this point? It really puzzled me and kind of diminished the movie for me.
 
He jumped into the chasm. The quickest way to the forest was through the planet's core!
I thought it had more to do with him knowing his way around the base and having clearance to use the turbolifts/speeders/Tie fighters/ or whatever else is there while the others were crawling back out the sewage pipes.
 
btw I keep bringing up her "secret jedi training" but I actually don't mean that bullshit prequel training

not like little kids being way too close to each other with lightsabers

I think the ultimate training is actually facing the dark side. Like Yoda told Luke. I can buy being somewhat cool with a lightsaber by lettin the force flow through ya (or whatever you wanna call it) but I think the issue of it doesnt come from the "BUT HOW?" but from the fact that it just makes the thing less interesting if it aint hard. It took Luke a while, man.

Luke was a coddled kid, gotta uncondition that shit first.
 
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