If I'm understanding the new canon correctly, it's not like the Resistance is exactly a massive force. They're basically like a small PMC compared to the US Armed Forces. They're not officially supported by the New Republic either, though they may get some off the books funding. The Empire is still out there, but just bound by treaty to stay behind some arbitrary border. With the New Republic and its fleet nearly annihilated, I'd imagine they're going to be rethinking their adherence to that treaty. Being the single most powerful person in the galaxy (debatable) isn't necessarily going to do a lot of good against an entire army, as Order 66 showed.
Star Wars VII doesn't respect the original trilogy (spoilers)
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If I'm understanding the new canon correctly, it's not like the Resistance is exactly a massive force. They're basically like a small PMC compared to the US Armed Forces. They're not officially supported by the New Republic either, though they may get some off the books funding. The Empire is still out there, but just bound by treaty to stay behind some arbitrary border. With the New Republic and its fleet nearly annihilated, I'd imagine they're going to be rethinking their adherence to that treaty. Being the single most powerful person in the galaxy (debatable) isn't necessarily going to do a lot of good against an entire army, as Order 66 showed.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
Because an entire Empire was actively hunting down every Jedi?
bonesmccoy
Banned
TFA to the OT is OT to Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers.
So, sure, sure. It's original.
Why the fuck didn't Yoda or Obi-Wan do SHIT in the OT for all that time? Like WTF were they doing letting mere mortals and the rest of the Jedi spread across the galaxy get their asses kicked?
At least Luke, the only remaining Jedi in the world, went looking for guidance/power or SOMETHING at the first Jedi temple.
At least Luke, the only remaining Jedi in the world, went looking for guidance/power or SOMETHING at the first Jedi temple.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Why is this its own thread when it is completely indistinguishable from the 50+ thesis papers along these same lines that are part of the current (and previous) Spoiler Threads?
This has been, and continues to be, argued very thoroughly in the Force Awakens spoiler thread proper.
Is this one of those things where the poster knows its already being discussed but they feel their thoughts are just that much more pertinent and insightful that it necessitates a thread all their own outside the existing, healthy convo they're late to?
This has been, and continues to be, argued very thoroughly in the Force Awakens spoiler thread proper.
Is this one of those things where the poster knows its already being discussed but they feel their thoughts are just that much more pertinent and insightful that it necessitates a thread all their own outside the existing, healthy convo they're late to?
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
I'm glad you didn't. Some of us don't think Han is all that.
Amount of fucks I gave when Han died: exactly 0.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
Darth Karja
Member
Thats what they did. Obi-Wan and Yoda both said "Fuck it all" and went and hid for 20 years. They were both his only Jedi teachers, so when he has similar problems, its only natural for him to do what they would do.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
My argument is that TFA makes all the OT heroes look terrible in an effort to further the adventures of the new characters. Its just such a weak justification to get Luke out of the narrative and put Han Solo back in the smuggler role.
A Link to the Past
Banned
What heroes amirite
That said, again, it is the simplest explanation to just say "he felt that he had failed as a Jedi Master and could not keep him from turning to the Dark Side, and thus he left."
I agree this isn't apparent in the movie but think of the First Order as a terrorist group. The New Republic doesn't want to get into official war with the First Order or the senate votes against it because they don't see them as a threat and don't want to legitimize them. At the same time, leaders of the republic secretly fund a freedom fighter group to try and resist them, without officially being in a state of war.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Well, he didn't disappear exactly: this is canon now.
that other guy did vanish though. But he was the creepy brother anyway.
Han was turned into a major pussy in ROTJ
Except, no one made that complaint with the plethora of post ROTJ novels that launched.
Well the last time the Republic had a sizable official military, shit went real bad. The New Republic governs, and financially supports the Resistance, probably on worlds the NR has less influence on considering the "Resistance" name.
I didn't pick this up from a book or a comic. It's my assumption from my first viewing, and unless someone wants to tell me I'm wrong, I'd say it's an explanation that works just fine.
Messypandas
Member
Abrams degloved Lucas' face and made his film again.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's basically a typical proxy war, funding a rebel force against your big enemy at a time when it isn't prudent to declare war on them directly. This kind of thing is absolutely common in human conflict. The Cold War, etc.
But with Han dead, who's going to have a bad feeling about this?
PerezDeCorcho
Member
R2 had the map of the system from the empires archives, not Luke
I agree with a lot of what you said. Overall, I think the film retreads too many things and they're detrimental to the plot and the characters, especially the ones from the OT.
I still think it's a good movie overall though. But a lot of missed oppourtunities.
I still think it's a good movie overall though. But a lot of missed oppourtunities.
Is that actually canon? I thought I remember that simply being a plotline from an earlier version of the movie.
Pretty much. And there's nothing saying that the galaxy didn't get fluffy rainbows, peace, and happiness for a while after Return of the Jedi. I mean, they had enough positive momentum after ROTJ to found the New Republic and get all of that shit going. TFA implies that shit didn't start going south until the last 5-10 years.
The best math guesses are about 10-15 years prior to the Force Awakens. Assuming that Kylo betrayed Luke and the others as early as possible.
bobawesome
Member
You should get banned for this sort of shit. The OP made some decent points. If you disagree, maybe you could attempt to discuss or refute their points instead of leaning on an overplayed image?
A Link to the Past
Banned
I may be misremembering, but didn't the map exist because Luke wanted to be found?
IdreamofHIME
Member
Its almost like the world didn't stay the same after 30 years, so unrealistic. Everyone knows nothing changes. And happy endings are the normality.
Why is Star Wars so unreal?
Why is Star Wars so unreal?
Technically, the opening scrawl of EP 7 says the very same thing, except the only Jedi being Luke.
And by your own words, "The Empire doesn't have to strike back because the Empire never left."
Ergo, Luke's actions are excused by your own logic, because the Empire is actively hunting down Jedi.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
That's true. But I'll tell you who won't have a bad feeling about this, or anything else again for that matter: Han, because he's dead.
The only person I know that has seen this in real life who loves SW (original 3) hated this new one with a passion. Puts it at number 4 in the order.
The other person I know who has seen it that doesn't mind SW said that it's 'ok'
I think this movie is the reverse of 'outrage culture'
The other person I know who has seen it that doesn't mind SW said that it's 'ok'
I think this movie is the reverse of 'outrage culture'
PerezDeCorcho
Member
I never really delved into the expanded universe. I'm really only concerned about the films. This is my first encounter with post-Episode VI SW lore, to be frank with you. So maybe I'm a little late.
Pretty sure it was confirmed by JJ in an interview where he explained why R2 woke up at the end. In their first encounter BB8 tells him he has a piece of a map, R2 hears this and boots up but it takes a really long time to wake from low power mode and that's why he appears to suddenly wake up at the end.
The other piece was somehow retrieved by Max Von Sydow's character but how he got that info or knew of Luke's location no one really knows.
They had a 'good ending' for 20 or so years. Leia helped rebuild the Republic and raised a son with the man she loved.
I'm pretty sure stuff like this matter to these characters.
ThreePiMatt
Member
There's definitely a lot of threads between ROTJ and TFA that don't exactly line up logically. To me, the First Order's situation just seems downright silly. They feel more like a parody of the Empire rather than the successor, and they did a fantastically poor job of explaining the current balance of power between the factions. A New Hope made it very clear that the Empire runs shit and the Senate had no actual power.
Overall, I felt they put too much effort in creating analogues in regards to people, places, moments, but they didn't give you any reason to care about most of them except Ren and Rey. Even Finn just seems like he's "there." They blew up like five planets and its like "whatevs." Blowing up Alderaan was meaningful. Leia needed to get there, Luke and Obi needed to bring R2-D2 there.
Overall, I felt they put too much effort in creating analogues in regards to people, places, moments, but they didn't give you any reason to care about most of them except Ren and Rey. Even Finn just seems like he's "there." They blew up like five planets and its like "whatevs." Blowing up Alderaan was meaningful. Leia needed to get there, Luke and Obi needed to bring R2-D2 there.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Yup. A great response I once saw was an edit of the image where someone put the comic in the text bubble in place of "I don't like thing".
This is true as well. Luke has a treasure trove of reasons to have gone into hiding.
True, but they were "canon" .. so by their very existence, the happy ending of ROTJ was invalidated 20 something years ago and everyone survived.
For those who want to keep ROTJ's "happy ending" pretend TFA never happened, much in the way people pretended the EU novels didn't matter.
Problem solved.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Twilight Gap
Member
Only thing I'd disagree with from that is Luke going in search of the first jedi temple. I don't think he was running away, but rather looking for answers. Why he chose to isolate himself, I can't say. But I don't think it's as simple as giving up nonetheless.
As for the rest, yea I'm not really sure why they decided to fill the film with homages. I went in expecting a retread of A New Hope and got exactly that, except with more modern characters.
Rey - I don't think she's a Mary Sue, but she's a self insert for every fan who wants to suddenly wake up with Jedi powers and she basically has no character flaws by the end of the film.
Finn - The funny coward. Granted he shows some character development by the end.
Poe - He's a 2-dimensional pilot
Kylo Ren - The guy you see plastered over the television screen every 6 odd months
BB-8 - Disney's R2-D2. I like him though.
Snoke - Another puppetmaster from the shadows.
Phasma - Toybait
I give them points for making Kylo choose the Dark Side instead of be victimized by it like Anakin was, but I don't find a petulant child interesting to watch on screen.
The main difference between ANH and TFA is that the heroes' first reaction to what they are supposed to do is "nope".
As for the rest, yea I'm not really sure why they decided to fill the film with homages. I went in expecting a retread of A New Hope and got exactly that, except with more modern characters.
Rey - I don't think she's a Mary Sue, but she's a self insert for every fan who wants to suddenly wake up with Jedi powers and she basically has no character flaws by the end of the film.
Finn - The funny coward. Granted he shows some character development by the end.
Poe - He's a 2-dimensional pilot
Kylo Ren - The guy you see plastered over the television screen every 6 odd months
BB-8 - Disney's R2-D2. I like him though.
Snoke - Another puppetmaster from the shadows.
Phasma - Toybait
I give them points for making Kylo choose the Dark Side instead of be victimized by it like Anakin was, but I don't find a petulant child interesting to watch on screen.
The main difference between ANH and TFA is that the heroes' first reaction to what they are supposed to do is "nope".
I agree that the movie did not do a good job in actually establishing the political state of the galaxy. It makes a fuckton more sense after getting information from the novelization and some of the new canon stuff.
Basically, what Luke, Han, and Leia did at ROTJ was not pointless; their actions pretty much started a chain reaction that pretty much ruined the Empire in the next year. The kind of government they fought for essentially was a peaceful democracy that didn't see a major war for 30 years. The First Order is literally a fraction of the remaining Empire that didn't want to either leave that military life or merge with the Republic. Instead, they took their ball and went home so to speak by retreating to the Outer Rim. Sure, they slowly built up their forces from the Empire's collapse up to the point of TFA, and some planets/governments/crime rings secretly supported the First Order on the side. But the Republic didn't take them seriously and thought the First Order was just a joke of a fringe group.
Of course, Leia knew what was up (either this is how she figured out about Snoke in the first place or I dunno) and the Republic was like "eh, whatever, take these X-Wings and do your shit with a new Rebellion since you seem to be good at that."
But other material also established that the Republic and the Senate rotate between home worlds, so who knows what kind of blow the First Order made with the Starkiller Base (if they even made a major dent at all, militarily or moral-wise). But after finding out the above info, the world of TFA did make more sense to be. But again, I also agree that it could have been handled in the actual movie a lot better than it was (Where people didn't even know if the planet that got blown the fuck up was Corusant or not).
Now the character motivations are one thing. Han's change makes sense given his character. I cannot really extrapolate a lot from Luke's situation given that he had no lines. In my head canon at the moment, for what little it's worth, I believe that after the Kylo Ren fuck-up, he's trying to find the First Jedi Temple simply because he's cognizant that he's missing something. I mean, the last Jedi Order utterly failed after one turned to the dark side, and now Kylo Ren threatens to do the same. Something about this Jedi/Sith duality is not working and he might be trying to go to the source to figure out why there's a Jedi order at all, let alone if there is something about the myth/teachings that just got lost over the generations.
Basically, what Luke, Han, and Leia did at ROTJ was not pointless; their actions pretty much started a chain reaction that pretty much ruined the Empire in the next year. The kind of government they fought for essentially was a peaceful democracy that didn't see a major war for 30 years. The First Order is literally a fraction of the remaining Empire that didn't want to either leave that military life or merge with the Republic. Instead, they took their ball and went home so to speak by retreating to the Outer Rim. Sure, they slowly built up their forces from the Empire's collapse up to the point of TFA, and some planets/governments/crime rings secretly supported the First Order on the side. But the Republic didn't take them seriously and thought the First Order was just a joke of a fringe group.
Of course, Leia knew what was up (either this is how she figured out about Snoke in the first place or I dunno) and the Republic was like "eh, whatever, take these X-Wings and do your shit with a new Rebellion since you seem to be good at that."
But other material also established that the Republic and the Senate rotate between home worlds, so who knows what kind of blow the First Order made with the Starkiller Base (if they even made a major dent at all, militarily or moral-wise). But after finding out the above info, the world of TFA did make more sense to be. But again, I also agree that it could have been handled in the actual movie a lot better than it was (Where people didn't even know if the planet that got blown the fuck up was Corusant or not).
Now the character motivations are one thing. Han's change makes sense given his character. I cannot really extrapolate a lot from Luke's situation given that he had no lines. In my head canon at the moment, for what little it's worth, I believe that after the Kylo Ren fuck-up, he's trying to find the First Jedi Temple simply because he's cognizant that he's missing something. I mean, the last Jedi Order utterly failed after one turned to the dark side, and now Kylo Ren threatens to do the same. Something about this Jedi/Sith duality is not working and he might be trying to go to the source to figure out why there's a Jedi order at all, let alone if there is something about the myth/teachings that just got lost over the generations.
The (now non-canon) EU went full-stupid post ROTJ. A clone of Palpatine shows up, turns Luke to the Dark Side, Leia has to turn Luke back. The Empire builds another fucking super weapon. You get crazy dark Jedi that belong in a Platinum Games title. If you think TFA shits on the OT you'd be amazed what the old EU did.
If A New Hope was released in 2015 people would shit all over Luke hardcore for being a Mary Sue
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
It didn't "remain" as strong though. It got weakened to hell and then rebuilt itself quietly. The Empire lost the war with the Rebellion (which reformed into the New Republic), was severely diminished in power, influence, and territory and had to pay major reparations. Then, over the course of 30 years disgruntled leaders of the Empire regrouped and reformed as the First Order, and started quietly taking over planets on the fringe of the New Republic's influence, and started pumping an immense amount of resources into new military technology. The New Republic didn't do its due diligence in preventing the latter from happening, and was too spineless/worried of starting a new galactic war that it let the prior happen without too much opposition.
It's really not that absurd when you considered you can kind-of line up the progression from Galactic Empire to the First Order with the transition from the German Empire circa WWI to Hitler's immensely powerful Third Reich. The external politics are a bit different, but it's comparable enough.
John Kowalski
Banned
Nothing better than celebrating one of the most influential and novel franchises of its time by, uh... making the same movie.
A Link to the Past
Banned
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