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[Toxi]

I don't know. You're hard pressed to say any criticism without a legion of people telling you otherwise.

What are TFA's flaws exactly?

The Starkiller Base is not significant to any of the three main characters' plots, so its inclusion feels rushed and hollow. Nobody even talks about the super weapon until it's right about to be fired, so there's no build-up. The destruction of the New Republic leadership carries even less weight than the destruction of Alderaan, and at no point does Starkiller bring the sense of dread the Death Star or even the Death Star II did for the characters. I honestly would have gutted the entire super weapon angle and instead made Starkiller Base just the First Order's headquarters.

Waiting for the supposed legion of people who will tell me otherwise.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Starkiller Base was a Mega Death Star and they were super transparent about this in the movie. They even had a literal size comparison between the two and referenced the Death Star and how they were able to blow that up, so they can blow this one up too! Most of the New Hope parallels were pulled off nicely, but this one was really hamfisted. I think it would have been more threatening if the base threatened to blow up the Resistance HQ or something before blowing up a bunch of rando worlds we know nothing about. There was no buildup to that scene, no anything. It was essentially a pretty light show that reassured us that the bad guys are, in fact, evil.

 

[Toxi]

Starkiller Base was a Mega Death Star and they were super transparent about this in the movie. They even had a literal size comparison between the two and referenced the Death Star and how they were able to blow that up, so they can blow this one up too! Most of the New Hope parallels were pulled off nicely, but this one was really hamfisted.

I didn't really have a problem with them reusing the concept so much as the concept not really fitting in the movie. Star killer Base doesn't really matter to Finn, Rey, or Kylo Ren, ergo it's superfluous and just a distraction from the core of the movie.

 

[Zabka]

He reads minds in ESB and ROTJ. In the first film they hadn't come up with that power yet (he can't read Leia's mind for the location of the droids). Also, I believe the Emperor's line about the son of Skywalker was inserted in the special edition to fix the plothole.

What plot hole?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKtciRCVpFE

 

[CosmicQueso]

What was the fucking point?

$29.8B in estimated revenues generated (no idea if source is anywhere near legit, but all that money is the point).

 

[Valentus]

She's no more powerful than Luke is in the OT.

I always had this feeling that most of jedis of the council (specially Mace Windu) and Sith Lords of the prequel Trilogy could kick ROTJ Luke's ass in a heartbeat.

Damn you lucas and your saber fights.

 

[Neff]

Watch the prequels again, then TFA, and tell me it's not a gift. Go ahead and try.

It is a gift. It's a competent, enjoyable film. It's just not a gift fitting of what preceded it.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I think this movie's biggest weakness was that it tried to tell too much in too little time. It had 30 years of history to explain as well as a new story to set up. As a result, it feels kind of frenetic. VIII and IX will probably be more cohesive films.

 

[Joey Fox]

I think this movie's biggest weakness was that it tried to tell too much in too little time. It had 30 years of history to explain as well as a new story to set up. As a result, it feels kind of frenetic. VIII and IX will probably be more cohesive films.

They could easily have made Episode VII about Kylo's origin and been better off for it.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

They could easily have made Episode VII about Kylo's origin and been better off for it.

I feel like the decision to start with dark side Ren was a very conscious one based on the (relatively) more positive reception to Episode III as compared to I and II. One of the biggest complaints about the prequels is that they take too long setting up the big event and that not much really happens. I think they went too far in the other direction this time. It worked in A New Hope because we knew literally nothing about the SW universe at the time, so decades of untold history felt more natural. They'll obviously fill in the major remaining blanks with the next two films, but I do think you're right.

 

[The Librarian]

I get the feeling a lot of people view TFA as the greatest movie ever made. This much defense over a movie is rare.

You're wrong, but I do think TFA is the best Star Wars film ever made.

 

[shoreu]

I always had this feeling that most of jedis of the council (specially Mace Windu) and Sith Lords of the prequel Trilogy could kick ROTJ Luke's ass in a heartbeat.

Damn you lucas and your saber fights.

Windu was unstoppable in a lightsaber duel he even created/ finished his own style. All of the high council were on a whole other level than Luke. People think that anakin would have been far more powerful if he hadn't have lost his limbs.

 

[Aylinato]

Only thing I'd disagree with from that is Luke going in search of the first jedi temple. I don't think he was running away, but rather looking for answers. Why he chose to isolate himself, I can't say. But I don't think it's as simple as giving up nonetheless.

As for the rest, yea I'm not really sure why they decided to fill the film with homages. I went in expecting a retread of A New Hope and got exactly that, except with more modern characters.

Rey - I don't think she's a Mary Sue, but she's a self insert for every fan who wants to suddenly wake up with Jedi powers and she basically has no character flaws by the end of the film.
Finn - The funny coward. Granted he shows some character development by the end.
Poe - He's a 2-dimensional pilot
Kylo Ren - The guy you see plastered over the television screen every 6 odd months
BB-8 - Disney's R2-D2. I like him though.
Snoke - Another puppetmaster from the shadows.
Phasma - Toybait


I give them points for making Kylo choose the Dark Side instead of be victimized by it like Anakin was, but I don't find a petulant child interesting to watch on screen.

The main difference between ANH and TFA is that the heroes' first reaction to what they are supposed to do is "nope".

Luke- what every fan wants to be, and wake up with force powers
Han, a coward who shows some character development by the end
Wedge-2 dminesional pilot
Vader-the guy who gets plasters on tv every 6 months
Snoke-emperor
Phasma-same as Baba fett, both did the same amount of work.

Luke's first reaction is doubting himself and not wanting to believe he can go against the empire until towards the end.

My god some people don't even read their own arguments without thinking about the OT.

 

[chemicals]

I think this movie's biggest weakness was that it tried to tell too much in too little time. It had 30 years of history to explain as well as a new story to set up. As a result, it feels kind of frenetic. VIII and IX will probably be more cohesive films.

I thought the movie was paced way better than the prequel trilogy. Think about it.. Episode 3 rushes through major plot events like a saturday morning cartoon. At the beginning of the movie, Anakin is still a good guy - by the end of the movie: Palpatine has turned him into Darth Vader, he turns against Kenobi, they have the battle where Kenobi whips his ass, he is fitted with the black mask, Luke and Leia are born, my god SLOW THE HELL DOWN!

 

[RyanW]

I see the movie's flaws but left the theater satisfied so much that I've seen it 3 times.

I'm glad there wasn't a lot of explanation as it leaves it to your imagination. Although I predict we'll get a lot of backstory in VIII especially with Kylo Ren. I came in knowing that, sure we're getting old characters but this isn't about them and now seeing the movie it's obvious they're slowly going to get rid of them in some way.

We're getting a trilogy and that's how these films are being made so I feel like we'll be able to give a better rating of TFA after the other 2 films come out. That's just how movies are made. If anything, it's better to view them as 3 Acts more than 3 movies if that makes sense

 

[kiguel182]

Obi-Wan's rigid training was putting a helmet on Luke and telling him to act on instinct. Then at the end, Ghost Obi-Wan says "use the Force," and Luke makes an impossible shot without the help of a targeting computer. By the time Empire rolled around, Luke was already pulling shit from a distance without anyone's help.

And I don't see what's disrespectful about Luke's plan to reinstate the Jedi not going as he wanted.

Han failing as a father fits perfectly in-line with his character.


Most of your issues boil down to "Nobody got a happily ever after ending"

Yeah, it's not like Luke had an amazing training before using the force. The training he had was basically "the force exists, use it".

The movie has it's problems but I don't agree with most of the stuff in the OP.

 

[Gorillaz]

I enjoyed it alot but think my favorite moments was when it wasn't leaning on the old guard/tropes of the original. I do agree with the notion that the first 20, from the capture of Poe to Finn and Rey escaping Jakku was one of the better stretches of story. The other being Kylo/Han leading into the fight stuff.

 

[Bowdz]

As someone who loved TFA and a huge Star Wars fan since my childhood, I more or less agree with the OP. Up until about the New Jedi Order series, I still prefer the original EU to the TFA because, a few duds notwithstanding, it captured not only the essence of Star Wars as well of the OT, but the general plot lines made more sense logically and in relation to the motivations of the characters in the OT.

 

[DarthWoo]

Starkiller Base was a Mega Death Star and they were super transparent about this in the movie. They even had a literal size comparison between the two and referenced the Death Star and how they were able to blow that up, so they can blow this one up too! Most of the New Hope parallels were pulled off nicely, but this one was really hamfisted. I think it would have been more threatening if the base threatened to blow up the Resistance HQ or something before blowing up a bunch of rando worlds we know nothing about. There was no buildup to that scene, no anything. It was essentially a pretty light show that reassured us that the bad guys are, in fact, evil.

It would have made no strategic sense for them to go after the Resistance base first. The majority of the Republic fleet and probably all of its leaders are in the Hosnian system, and it is that fleet that would in the First Order's mind be the only real threat to them (given that they at the moment don't seem to have a whole lot of Star Destroyers) so that had to go first. As for them being seemingly worlds we know nothing about, we know about as much about that system (current New Republic home system, big fleet there) as we did about Alderaan at the same point in ANH (Leia's home, maybe peaceful with no weapons) so I don't see an issue with that.

 

[KingSnake]

To be able to start a new competent trilogy it had to "disrespect" the conclusion of the OT. Otherwise you don't have too much story to tell. And it had to avoid to be too much in line with the PT, otherwise people wouldn't have given it a chance.

Thus, already bad Ben and failing Luke set up a potential good new trilogy.

In my opinion the chosen way is preferable.

Edit: also given the age of the actors the OT heroes must be "killed" one way or another until the end of this trilogy. That's what you get when the sequel is 30 years later.

 

[kame-sennin]

It was a unique twist in that it could wipe out systems from far away via hyperspace laser. It was a nuclear pearl harbour

Hahahahahahah are you serious? It was bigger Death Star that could blow up more shit from farther away. That's literally the least unique super weapon they could have come up with.

 

[DragonSworne]

What plot hole?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKtciRCVpFE

What's with the giant Hologram. Are we to expect the Emperor is 20 feet tall?

 

[Guy.brush]

Agree with the op.
This was basically a hard reboot cause they couldn't or didn't want to continue the story from ROTJ properly and that includes both personal character stories as well as the political backdrop.
Of course it is tricky to dial back a perfect happy end. How do you keep the Spacenazis alive after the death of the Fuhrer?
It would have forced them to at least include Coruscant in some way which was probably off limits because of some highlevel "let's not use anything from the prequels" decision and an unfounded fear to not overcomplicate the mainstream audience brain with "trade taxation" or political shenanigans where people are arguing in the senate.

Thus, the political factions feel like reboot reinventions of what we had in ANH instead of logical continuation.
The First Order, according to TFA has been raising troopers from birth, so it must have existed for at least 22+ years before the events of TFA. TFA is 30 years after ROTJ.
So whatever happy end Luke, Leia and Han and the Rebel Alliance achieved, lasted for less than 5 years probably. If you count their misbehaving evil son, Leia and Han probably had like 3 years before everything went to shit.
And where are all the rebel alliance cap ships? Where is everything?
Apparently Mon Mothma, who seemed to lead the DSII assault briefing, ordered the "new" Republic to do a full de-militarization, but would that really include every Mon Calamari cruiser? Is this why Admiral "Its a trap" Ackbar is trapped on the rebooted overgrown temple Yavin IV rebe...resistance base?

Did we discuss yet why there are no B- or Y-Wings in the Starkiller base bombing run so the audience could easily get who is who? Tie Fighter BAD, X-Wing GOOD.
Why there are no capships around a 100x bigger, planet sized, gravity, snow, trees and atmosphere having Starkiller base and the number of Tie Fighters seem to be like 10?
Why Leia has no scene whatsoever with Chewie after their both partner in crime Han dies?
Why everyone knows everything about BB-8 and our two heroes after they are airborne with the Falcon for like 1 minute?
How the universe in TFA feels smaller than in the OT. Resistance + Leia arrive like 5 minutes after they are alarmed by a pirate cantina spy. How fast is Hyperspace in JJAbrams land? And if it is that fast and easy, why are there even people living on less lush worlds if it is a 5minute trip to get to a nice world?
And why can a fully formed Starkiller base be destroyed after a 2 minutes brainstorm session, a hint from a janitor and 8 X-Wings?
How Starkiller base can move around, or not? Do we know yet?
How it shoots? Through motherfrigging Hyperspace?!
How its beams can arc around?

And here is another nitpick that surely hasn't been discussed yet:
Why does Snoke's holo chamber walls have a rocky granite surface? That would not make sense on the SD Finalizer. So it must be on Starkiller base. If it is on Starkiller base. How fast can they move back and forth and how close must Starkiller base be to both Takodana, the Resistance base Yavin IV world, Jakku and those poor innocent Republic worlds that get blown up instead of something of importance?
Locations feel super close and stuff often vague probably a result of JJ's trademark pace and it hurts the world building.

EDIT: The answer to all this is that TFA is a script built around visual story telling and done so with a hot needle. Everything serves under the premise of where characters have to be at certain times for maximum impact or pace or easy understanding, but it is done so by sacrificing established universe rules or basic logic when they get in the way.

 

[Swarna]

Rey is automatically good at everything she does including fixing some shit Han couldn't on his own ship. Complete Mary Sue and uninteresting.

Finn was a far better/realistic character. I liked Poe, too. Just a charismatic dude. I wanna see where this duo goes.

OP's points are all spot on but that didn't stop me from enjoying the film.

 

[sphagnum]

The Starkiller Base is not significant to any of the three main characters' plots, so its inclusion feels rushed and hollow. Nobody even talks about the super weapon until it's right about to be fired, so there's no build-up. The destruction of the New Republic leadership carries even less weight than the destruction of Alderaan, and at no point does Starkiller bring the sense of dread the Death Star or even the Death Star II did for the characters. I honestly would have gutted the entire super weapon angle and instead made Starkiller Base just the First Order's headquarters.

Waiting for the supposed legion of people who will tell me otherwise.

If there had to be a super weapon, it should have just been the Finalizer. We could still have the rescue/escape sequence, just with Han and Finn trying to board the Star Destroyer. We'd lose the cool forest backdrop for the final duel, I guess, but it's not like that really matters.

 

[Kin5290]

Rey is automatically good at everything she does including fixing some shit Han couldn't on his own ship. Complete Mary Sue and uninteresting.

Finn was a far better/realistic character. I liked Poe, too. Just a charismatic dude. I wanna see where this duo goes.

OP's points are all spot on but that didn't stop me from enjoying the film.

Han is a terrible mechanic, and the Millenium Falcon is a heap of junk because he basically tacked on modifications onto top of modifications without any regard for how they work together. This is the foundation for one of the main plots of ESB, for chrissake.

Meanwhile, not only has Rey spent her life making sure that tech stuff still works, the Falcon was sitting in her boss's junkyard for years AND she's done work on it.

Seriously, where does this thing about Han supposedly being an expert mechanic come from?

 

[Lord of Castamere]

What's with the giant Hologram. Are we to expect the Emperor is 20 feet tall?

Palapatine did the same in ESB.

 

[shaneskim]

What's with the giant Hologram. Are we to expect the Emperor is 20 feet tall?

 

[SolVanderlyn]

EDIT: The answer to all this is that TFA is a script built around visual story telling and done so with a hot needle. Everything serves under the premise of where characters have to be at certain times for maximum impact or pace or easy understanding, but it is done so by sacrificing established universe rules or basic logic when they get in the way.

This is a really good way of putting it.

 

[Dragon]

What's with the giant Hologram. Are we to expect the Emperor is 20 feet tall?

When is it ever stated or implied that holograms have to be scaled one to one with the objects they represent?

Do you have a problem with Leia being two feet tall in ANH's hologram sequence?

 

[funkypie]

Rey is automatically good at everything she does including fixing some shit Han couldn't on his own ship. Complete Mary Sue and uninteresting.

Finn was a far better/realistic character. I liked Poe, too. Just a charismatic dude. I wanna see where this duo goes.

OP's points are all spot on but that didn't stop me from enjoying the film.

Considering you enjoyed it but agree with the op, do you not think the film was forgettable? All the originals are memorable, this isn't.

 

[Aselith]

Palapatine did the same in ESB.

Yepper, despots like to seem larger.

 

[Guy.brush]

Yepper, despots like to seem larger.

Here is what I meant with rocky granite walls in the Snoke chamber.
This seems like it cannot be onboard the Finalizer and must be on Starkiller base in a cave.
Or do they have a fancy granite rock wall finishing on their starships?

But then how do they fly back and forth from SD Finalizer to this location so fast?
And isn't there another comm call to Supreme Snake Snoke at the end AFTER Starkiller base has been blown up?
JackiChan.gif

 

[Aselith]

Here is what I meant with rocky granite walls in the Snoke chamber.
This seems like it cannot be onboard the Finalizer and must be on Starkiller base in a cave.
Or do they have a fancy granite rock wall finishing on their starships?

But then how do they fly back and forth from SD Finalizer to this location so fast?
And isn't there another comm call to Supreme Snake Snoke at the end AFTER Starkiller base has been blown up?
JackiChan.gif

Nah, Hux calls him at the end before Starkiller blows up and he's definitely on the Starkiller base still at that time.

 

[Guy.brush]

Nah, Hux calls him at the end before Starkiller blows up and he's definitely on the Starkiller base still at that time.

So if this is on Starkiller base, does it make sense with the earlier calls? It feels weird to me, cause the first calls feel like they were made from the ship.

 

[Aselith]

So if this is on Starkiller base, does it make sense with the earlier calls? It feels weird to me, cause the first calls feel like they were made from the ship.

I don't really remember, I'd have to watch it again and look for that.

 

[Astral Dog]

Starkiller Base was a Mega Death Star and they were super transparent about this in the movie. They even had a literal size comparison between the two and referenced the Death Star and how they were able to blow that up, so they can blow this one up too! Most of the New Hope parallels were pulled off nicely, but this one was really hamfisted. I think it would have been more threatening if the base threatened to blow up the Resistance HQ or something before blowing up a bunch of rando worlds we know nothing about. There was no buildup to that scene, no anything. It was essentially a pretty light show that reassured us that the bad guys are, in fact, evil.

Its there to show TFO is in fact 200% more Evil than the Galactic Empire

 

[Astral Dog]

So if this is on Starkiller base, does it make sense with the earlier calls? It feels weird to me, cause the first calls feel like they were made from the ship.

Easy, the Supreme One has evil looking granite chambers on both starships and planets in case he needs to be bothered with BB 8 stuff.

 

[Guy.brush]

Its there to show TFO is in fact 200% more Evil than the Galactic Empire

And now think about it.
If Han would have been a selfish prick after ANH, him and Leia would not have been together and made baby Kylo. There would not have been a tragedy at Luke's Jedi temple (or whatever Rey's vague vision implies) and everything would have been smooth sailing for the good side.
Sure Han helped with the shield generator during ROTJ but Luke was able to defeat the Emperor on his own.

So the Force doesn't like marriage CONFIRMED? Old Jedi Order monk behavior REDEEMED?
Joking aside, 200% more evil hell spawn Kylo somewhat weakens the love story in the OT retroactively.

 

[dave_m123]

Noticed how the director did the same trick he did in Star Trek with planets exploding a longggg distance away being viewable to the main characters on another planet. Why could they see the planets in the Hosnian being destroyed?

 

[Guy.brush]

The official canon explanation is "this is a hyperspace anomaly, not the actual destruction in real-time, many light years away"
Sounds like JJ and Kasdan wouldn't give a fuck about stuff like that and just wanted that visual for Han and party so the characters would be kickstarted into act 3.
The Lucasfilm story group then needs to come up with all kinds of weird explanations so it only mildy violates the previously established ruleset.

 

[JB1981]

The official canon explanation is "this is a hyperspace anomaly, not the actual destruction in real-time, many light years away"
Sounds like JJ and Kasdan wouldn't give a fuck about stuff like that and just wanted that visual for Han and party so the characters would be kickstarted into act 3.
The Lucasfilm story group then needs to come up with all kinds of weird explanations so it only mildy violates the previously established ruleset.

No one really gives a shit anyway other than picky scifi nerds.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Noticed how the director did the same trick he did in Star Trek with planets exploding a longggg distance away being viewable to the main characters on another planet. Why could they see the planets in the Hosnian being destroyed?

It was the hyperspace rip caused by it, not the planets being destroyed that they could see.

No one really gives a shit anyway other than picky scifi nerds.

It does seem a bit nitpicky.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It wasn't exactly just that the Jedi Order was destroyed the galaxy was under the entires control and palpatine was actively trying to hunt them down. The galaxy wouldn't have been half as dire if he killed Ren which he could easily do or at the very least take out snoke. The take starkiller was built and used a massive oversight on his part.

Really this entire plot hinges on every member of First order being incredibly I incompetant, If they used Star Killer to attack the rebel base from the begining that they obviously knew about the triology would be over already.

They didn't know where their base was.

 

[Principate]

They didn't know where their base was.

They mentioned that that now the Star Killer was primed at their planet and thus needed to be destroyed as an up the ante. Even that excuse was true it's utter bullshit. They captured the a ce pilot and found out where BB8 through ripping it from his mind but couldn't find out where the rebel base was?

All the antagonist in the film were James Bond villian levels of incompetance. Every single one. Hell spiny Storm Trooper guy is the most competant antagonist in the entire film.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Hahahahahahah are you serious? It was bigger Death Star that could blow up more shit from farther away. That's literally the least unique super weapon they could have come up with.

Being able to launch it via hyperspace turned the Death Star into a stealth weapon.

I thought it was a nice take on an old idea.

No one really gives a shit anyway other than picky scifi nerds.

This.

They mentioned that that now the Star Killer was primed at their planet and thus needed to be destroyed as an up the ante. Even that excuse was true it's utter bullshit. They captured the a ce pilot and found out where BB8 through ripping it from his mind but couldn't find out where the rebel base was?

All the antagonist in the film were James Bond villian levels of incompetance. Every single one. Hell spiny Storm Trooper guy is the most competant antagonist in the entire film.

Kylo Ren didn’t give a shit about the base at the time and only cared about where the map was. Finn freed Poe and helped him escape 2 minutes later.

 

[phazedplasma]

It felt more like to me it was a fuck ROTJ than the original trilogy. It's almost as if they went with the original ending they had in store for ROTJ before Lucas assumed direct control and made it a feel good and happy ending. I like some of the choices they made with this though.

This is a good thing. ROTJ is more or less terrible.

 

[Hyperbole]

I'll wait for ep8 before I even start to judge the overall story here. We just don't know enough. For example, did Luke really just go into hiding because he thinks of himself as a failure? Nope! The proof is in the fact he was looking for the first Jedi temple. That's not what a man who gave up does. We don't know why he was looking for it. Could it be that he in fact found it and caused the force awakening? Could it be that he orchestrated Reys awakening and finding him later? We just don't know.

Han was always a scoundrel. Yeah they made him a general, but he was always trying to leave to go pay Jabba. Where he is at its no surprise.

Leah is leader of the resistance, and the new republic is set up. That's pretty much what we expected.

As for the new order, is all plausible. The books basically went in this direction before getting un-canonized.

Honestly, it was really well done. People are expecting deep sci-fi with layers of intrigues, twists, and turns. I don't get that. Most fans hated the political theater of the prequels.

Personally the only thing I miss from Lucas stlye was that the first six movies had better visual ideas. Lucas always had 3 distinct color pallets. TFA had brown-green-white. Too much light colors. Also Lucas had better world ideas. Cloud city, the Sand Crawler, pod racers, lava planet, ewok tree village, ocean clone city, underwater city, stuff like that. There weren't any areas that capture the imagination in TFA. It was just desert, forest, ship interiors. Maz castle was just that; a castle. There was nothing there that couldn't exist in our world. I suppose the star destroyer graveyard was pretty good.

Anyways, I hope we get more story on the next one, and better world building. I think the prequels would have been much better than TFA if only Lucas had hired Kasdan to do the script.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Hyperbole, what a clever username.

I like it!

 

[Shaanyboi]

Considering you enjoyed it but agree with the op, do you not think the film was forgettable? All the originals are memorable, this isn't.

What's the metric for how memorable it is?