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[Toxi]

I was expecting a much better OP than "Why did this guy who didn't even appear in the movie until the last minute do something offscreen that will obviously be expanded upon in the next movie?"

There are a lot of problems with the Force Awakens, mostly related to the inclusion and presentation of Starkiller Base. But the complaints in the OP are some of the oddest I've ever seen beyond the originality one.

 

[LosDaddie]

I actually have no clue since i'm not even a fan. But I like reading thoughts about the movie.

I'm just noticing the same cycle every film of this magnitude goes through these days. It only gets worse from here.

Don't worry too much.

You'll get your chance at vigorously defending a blockbuster in a few months when BvS comes out.

 

[6.8]

The original trilogy basically meant nothing. The Empire is still around (and very well funded), and the Jedi are almost extinct.

But the Force is still balanced. So the PT has meaning, but not the OT further, proving that episode 3 is the GOAT.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

You can't judge a movie until the next one comes out. It's only fair.

When that movie is part one of a fully planned and fully fleshed out trilogy, you're right. It's only fair.

 

[SomTervo]

You say people are too harsh, and I say people are too soft.

We can go on forever, but I'm not really up for it.

You're sidestepping the person's argument - that you're being soft on the old movies but hard on the new one.

You should be hard on all of them if you're going to be like this.

 

[D1renegade]

Vader, the best star-pilot in the galaxy, didn't notice the Falcon and couldn't take Luke down.

But he did notice the falcon.. It was his wingmen who got hit and then flew into him...

Some of y'all are really reaching to put Luke on Rey's overpowered level.

 

[TheWarrior]

I didn't enjoy TFA either OP. I may not completely agree with your argument, but I do feel like I watched a different movie from everyone else.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Phasma is a Stormtrooper? News to me.

Couldn't sworn she was a Captain.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phasma

Nice try tho.

"Phasma was a stormtrooper captain of the First Order"

ayyy

But he did notice the falcon.. It was his wingmen who got hit and then flew into him...

Some of y'all are really reaching to put Luke on Rey's overpowered level.

That's not noticing the Falcon, lmao, that's noticing that someone got shot. I'm not saying "Vader wasn't even paying attention to his co-pilots exploding around him". If Vader truly was the greatest star-pilot in the galaxy, then I would expect that he would

1. Be able to compensate for what happened when the TIE Fighter pilots crashed
2. Be able to have anticipated the Falcon, given his mastery of the Force

 

[f0rk]

How do you know Luke gave up? We don't know what he's been doing since vanishing.

And it takes balls to write a script where everything went to shit after ROTJ.

I like balls.

Not when "what to shit" means "reset the universe to the same place it was before"

 

[Skellig Gra]

Yeah training sequences that can be reduced to "believe in the force" "the force flows trough a jedi"

No not really, have you actually seen these movies? Things like "Control, control, you must learn control"

 

[PedroPanache]

I haven't had chance to properly go through this entire thread, so forgive him if this has already come up before, but the one bugbear I do have - post original trilogy - is the mythologisation of Darth Vader into this figure of grand importance, when, in reality, he was represented as a relic from a by-gone era. Sure, he was someone to be feared but he seemed to be more of a pet of the Emperor's than anything else. To that end, turning Luke against Vader and taking his place seemed to be some power game the emperor got off on, rather than, say, the Skywalker linage being of great importance to the force. It felt more personal that way, but now the legend has kind of spiralled out of control and we now have Kylo Ren spewing such nonsense about finishing what Vader started. It would have been interesting to see TFA address that in some meaningful way.

I'm off on a tangent here, but that whole thing with Palpatine (and Yoda to a different degree) using light sabre's was completely at odds with the seething content Palpatine displayed when remarking to Luke about the sabre being a jedi's weapon, as if it was beneath him. I think much of the nuance of those moments have been trampled on, mostly by the prequels, but TFA struggles with this as well.

 

[shoreu]

Vader, the best star-pilot in the galaxy, didn't notice the Falcon and couldn't take Luke down.

Vader had a few chances to kill Luke but he doesn't seem to want to.

 

[Toxi]

I haven't had chance to properly go through this entire thread, so forgive him if this has already come up before, but the one bugbear I do have - post original trilogy - is the mythologisation of Darth Vader into this figure of grand importance, when, in reality, he was represented as a relic from a by-gone era. Sure, he was someone to be feared but he seemed to be more of a pet of the Emperor's than anything else. To that end, turning Luke against Vader and taking his place seemed to be some power game the emperor got off on, rather than, say, the Skywalker linage being of great importance to the force. It felt more personal that way, but now the legend has kind of spiralled out of control and we now have Kylo Ren spewing such nonsense about finishing what Vader started. It would have been interesting to see TFA address that in some meaningful way.

One of the most obvious aspects of Kylo Ren's character is that he has an unhealthy idolization of Darth Vader, to the point he tries to even imitate his appearance and voice. Kylo's greatest fear is that he can't reach that level he's put his idol on.

Kylo Ren seeing Vader as more significant than he actually was is intentional. Nobody else in the movie cares about Darth Vader because he's been dead for thirty years. The only guy who does care is presented as having severe issues.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Vader had a few chances to kill Luke but he doesn't seem to want to.

I mean, Lucas likely didn't write Vader as Luke's father in Star Wars.

 

[Toxi]

Vader had a few chances to kill Luke but he doesn't seem to want to.

If we're talking about the trench run, Darth Vader had no idea who Luke was at the time. He just missed (though he did hit Luke earlier and fried R2). Blame plot armor or heavy jamming from the Death Star.

 

[shoreu]

If we're talking about the trench run, Darth Vader had no idea who Luke was at the time. He just missed (though he did hit Luke earlier and fried R2). Blame plot armor or heavy jamming from the Death Star.

I'm. Almost certain he would have sensed something like he did in Darth Vader.

I mean, Lucas likely didn't write Vader as Luke's father in Star Wars.

I can't believe he didn't think of that link ahead of time.

 

[DragonSworne]

There is a common trait that runs through all TFA haters, they don't get Star Wars.

 

[shoreu]

There is a common theme that runs through all TFA haters, they don't get Star Wars.

I don't hate tfa but explain.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm. Almost certain he would have sensed something like he did in Darth Vader.


I can't believe he didn't think of that link ahead of time.

Leia always knew that Luke was his brother, she claims

It's pretty clear that Star Wars was written as an individual story, despite Lucas' claims.

 

[borborygmus]

There is a common trait that runs through all TFA haters, they don't get Star Wars.

Can't tell if parody... If not, what an embarrassing way to deal with differing opinions.

 

[sphagnum]

I'm. Almost certain he would have sensed something like he did in Darth Vader.

Well, he did sense something ("The Force is strong in this one...").

Both in canon and the old EU though, he never picked up on Luke being his son until later, and in the real world he didn't pick up on anything because Lucas hadn't decided that Vader was Luke's father yet.

 

[Skellig Gra]

There is a common trait that runs through all TFA haters, they don't get Star Wars.

To be fair a lot of TFA "lovers" don't get it either so the universe is in balance.

 

[shoreu]

Leia always knew that Luke was his brother, she claims

It's pretty clear that Star Wars was written as an individual story, despite Lucas' claims.

Lol yeah that is as weird as

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Vader had little reason to pick up on Luke being his son, seeing as how he didn't even know he had a living son.

 

[Memento]

Yeah, it is weird. I really liked the movie but I cant say I disagree with you.

 

[Forkball]

I think viewing the aftermath of an victory and how it affects everyone is an interesting angle for a story. It's obvious that for a time, the heroes of the OT were living a happy life. Luke had a Jedi academy, Han and Leia were married, had a kid etc. But as we all know things spiraled out of control. I don't think their current hardships negates their successes in the OT. They grew as characters and had a major impact on the overall status quo. I do admit that the whole New Republic/First Order dispute was poorly explained, and Starkiller Base blowing up everything seemingly had no weight to the story. As for the lightsaber, it was just a macguffin, not some magical artifact. It was there to give some hints about the backstory and to get Rey and Luke in the same place. It didn't serve a ton of importance in the film, the map was the main thing everyone was trying to nab.

The film is safe for sure, and saying it's ANH 2.0 is a valid complaint. But I disagree that it doesn't respect the OT. If anything it reinforces the ideas and themes in the OT far better than the PT ever did.

 

[shoreu]

Vader had little reason to pick up on Luke being his son, seeing as how he didn't even know he had a living son.

He catches a lot of things through the force he probably didn't know it was his son but the force probably put him off.

Spoiler

This is speculation of course

 

[PdotMichael]

Vader had little reason to pick up on Luke being his son, seeing as how he didn't even know he had a living son.

There is no logical explenation why Vader knows that Luke is his son.
Is some of the many things people just accept he does somehow.

Though one of the more dumb things Lucas did in the PT was that he didn't change the last name of Anakin. So Obi-Wan was hiding Luke on the home planet of Vader while also carry the same Skywalker name.

 

[DragonSworne]

There is no logical explenation why Vader knows that Luke is his son.
Is some of the many things people just accept he does somehow.

Though one of the more dumb things Lucas did in the PT was that he didn't change the last name of Anakin.

No logical reason? You don't get Star Wars. The force. He knew, he always knew. Just like Leia always knew Luke was her bother.

 

[Scrooged]

You mean it doesn't respect your personal vision of what the characters would turn into. 30 years have passed. People change, and yes, can change for the worse or revert to their old ways.

Luke: We hardly know anything about what he's done or gone through. Claiming that his character has been disrespected at this point is silly.

Han: Totally fits his character. Not sure what the issue is really. You thought he would forever be a paragon of righteousness after RotJ? lol

Leia: Character disrespected because she didn't prevent the First Order? Uh, okay. Seems like you're grasping at straws.

The Force: There's been an awakening, and obviously Rey is central to this. She has a direct line to Luke and Anakin through the Force. Also, the Force has always been superpowers.

 

[sphagnum]

There is no logical explenation why Vader knows that Luke is his son.
Is some of the many things people just accept he does somehow..

There's a 3 year gap inbetween ANH and ESB. He just finds out somewhere during that time. This is just like in TFA, where there's a ton of stuff that is just glossed over.

The books and comics go into how he finds out.

 

[JoeInky]

There is no logical explenation why Vader knows that Luke is his son.
Is some of the many things people just accept he does somehow.

Boba fett told him.

Unless we're just talking about what you see in the movies.

 

[shoreu]

Well, he did sense something ("The Force is strong in this one...").

Both in canon and the old EU though, he never picked up on Luke being his son until later, and in the real world he didn't pick up on anything because Lucas hadn't decided that Vader was Luke's father yet.

The canon has Boba Fett telling him about Luke.

 

[PdotMichael]

There's a 3 year gap inbetween ANH and ESB. He just finds out somewhere during that time. This is just like in TFA, where there's a ton of stuff that is just glossed over.

The books and comics go into how he finds out.

Boba fett told him.

Unless we're just talking about what you see in the movies.

muh EU is maybe the worst way to excuse things. Stuff is also written years after the movies so it only confirms that the shit in the movie doesn't make sense.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

There is no logical explenation why Vader knows that Luke is his son.
Is some of the many things people just accept he does somehow.

Though one of the more dumb things Lucas did in the PT was that he didn't change the last name of Anakin. So Obi-Wan was hiding Luke on the home planet of Vader while also carry the same Skywalker name.

I'm pretty sure the first mention of "Anakin Skywalker" is in ROTJ. So it's a problem with the OT, not the PT.

 

[DragonSworne]

I'm pretty sure the first mention of "Anakin Skywalker" is in ROTJ. So it's a problem with the OT, not the PT.

Anakin Skywalker was mentioned in A New Hope. But at that time, Vader was not Anakin and Vader was not Luke's father. It was in the second draft of the ESB that Vader finally become Luke's father.

Yea, they were just making shit up as they went along. That explains why the PT was a mess.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm pretty sure the first mention of "Anakin Skywalker" is in ROTJ. So it's a problem with the OT, not the PT.

Jedi ruins everything

 

[Jinroh]

It's pretty clear that Star Wars was written as an individual story, despite Lucas' claims.

When did he claim that? He said he was kind of frightened when two sequels were greenlit because they weren't originally planned. Also in the first script of the empire strikes back Darth Vader wasn't meant to be Luke's father (at least not yet).

 

[Subpar Spatula]

I get the feeling a lot of people view TFA as the greatest movie ever made. This much defense over a movie is rare.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

In watching A New Hope last night, the prequels kind of deviate from the trilogy as well.

For example, Obi-Wan acting like he had no clue who R2-D2 was despite spending two movies with him as his personal droid.

Also the conversation with Luke, Owen and Aunt Beru makes it seem like his aunt and uncle knew Vader for a long time. It looks like they've only met for like two days in AotC. Unless Obi Wan told them how much of an asshole Anakin became when he gave them Luke.

And I also don't recall Obi-Wan being Yoda's apprentice. Didn't he become a Jedi Master right after Qui Gon's death?

 

[Zabka]

I get the feeling a lot of people view TFA as the greatest movie ever made. This much defense over a movie is rare.

Your feeling is wrong

 

[danm999]

I get the feeling a lot of people view TFA as the greatest movie ever made.

Search your feelings. You know this to be not true.

 

[Phoenixazure]

muh EU is maybe the worst way to excuse things. Stuff is also written years after the movies so it only confirms that the shit in the movie doesn't make sense.

I don't think there's nothing wrong with supplemental material. In the new Vader comic that's really good actually deals with how Vader finds out Luke's identity and the ramifications. I won't go into spoilers but I just read the first six issues and I was blown away.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Search your feelings. You know this to be not true.

I don't know. You're hard pressed to say any criticism without a legion of people telling you otherwise.

What are TFA's flaws exactly?

 

[Zabka]

Why wouldn't Vader know Luke is his son? Besides the fact that he can read minds, the Emperor tells him the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.

 

[PdotMichael]

I don't think there's nothing wrong with supplemental material. In the new Vader comic that's really good actually deals with how Vader finds out Luke's identity and the ramifications. I won't go into spoilers but I just read the first six issues and I was blown away.

Supplemental material is a nice way to invest more time in a franchise (though I will never unstand the "its canon!" fetish of the nerds) but its an incredible bad way of trying to fix plotholes.

 

[danm999]

I don't know. You're hard pressed to say any criticism without a legion of people telling you otherwise.

What are TFA's flaws exactly?

Welcome to pretty much any well received movie ever.

The idea a significant amount of people are championing it as the greatest movie ever made is just a silly strawman.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Why wouldn't Vader know Luke is his son? Besides the fact that he can read minds, the Emperor tells him the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.

In Empire, yeah. He already knows by that point but he doesn't when the Rebels attack the first Death Star.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Supplemental material is a nice way to invest more time in a franchise (though I will never unstand the "its canon!" fetish of the nerds) but its an incredible bad way of trying to fix plotholes.

I disagree. Sometimes you can believably patch up a wonky part of a story this way. I haven't read said Vader comic but on principal I don't think this is true. Also, the "it's canon fetish" stems from the fulfillment you feel seeing a world more fully realized, it's not far-fetched to understand its appeal.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Why wouldn't Vader know Luke is his son? Besides the fact that he can read minds, the Emperor tells him the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.

He reads minds in ESB and ROTJ. In the first film they hadn't come up with that power yet (he can't read Leia's mind for the location of the droids). Also, I believe the Emperor's line about the son of Skywalker was inserted in the special edition to fix the plothole.