benjipwns
Banned
How do other posters know if I'm white or not?
MLK Day Protesters Block Traffic on the Bay Bridge
- Thread starter Dalek
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travisbickle
Member
Civil disobedience is the strongest tool the public has to fight against the status quo.
Honestly, I can believe some of the posters here like "God's Beard" are government propaganda mouth-pieces trying to sow doubt into something that has succeeded in changing the norms of society since it's conception.
Honestly, I can believe some of the posters here like "God's Beard" are government propaganda mouth-pieces trying to sow doubt into something that has succeeded in changing the norms of society since it's conception.
uncelestial
Member
I think that largely depends on what you're trying say. Try to imagine the situation in real life. Would you walk into a room where there weren't many white people and start trying to school all the people of color about issues that affect them and not you? When I say "it's not about you," please understand that I am (mostly) white, and old enough to know there is an art to knowing when you have an opportunity to learn a little bit instead of just running with your reflexive first impression and firing a bunch of hot takes/going with your gut. There are many political issues and things in life in general where you can shoot from the hip that way and it's fair enough, but experiences that are starkly different for people of different races bear caution, and looking before you leap. If you're trying to be sympathetic and helpful and thoughtful, I promise you it doesn't matter what race you are, ever. That's just being a human.
Yes, to be honest I have started hiding a lot of the more "active" white liberal friends of mine on Facebook who just won't stop virtue signalling, when I know for a fact they don't do anything meaningful to help. I could always stand to do more myself (I really only donate money and vote right these days; I was a marcher in my 20s for sure though), but at least I'm not flooding all my friends with my not-backed up shit and confining my political debates to actual threads on the topics at hand here on GAF, where it makes sense.
Please do not sensationalise what I'm trying to say.
Of course, I'd like to think no Gaffer is trying to belittle the cause being fought for in the OP, I'm certainly not. It's more the irony of instantly reacting in a negative way to any Gaffer who is trying to understand the situation (perhaps, a little unsympathetically through lack of understanding). You say 'we' should be asking "what can we do?" well, tbh, there's not a lot we can do from where we are except spreading the message but then you can understand people's hesitance to spread the message or cause when they're constantly told to not get involved or share their opinion.
excelsiorlef
Member
1) I'd probably join in.
2) There are plenty of white allies such as myself who are interested.
As a white guy I am telling you to stop this line of thinking.
I didn't suggest that people weren't interested, quite the opposite. Neither was I implying that these people aren't "allies".
I get that the protest is meant to bring attention to their movement, but there is other just as attention grabbing options for them to pursue like the few police stations that are linked to this movement.
Just doesn't seem smart or make sense to bring all lanes of traffic to a standstill.
Just doesn't seem smart or make sense to bring all lanes of traffic to a standstill.
You're the one talking about literal "No Whites Allowed" signs, so I'm not exaggerating in the slightest.
All I'm seeing is stupid opinions being called out for what they are. Yours being among them. And I don't know if you're white and couldn't care less.
excelsiorlef
Member
You asked why these threads get posted to OT. I gave you an answer. You seem to "not be saying" a lot of things
MikeBreezy92
Member
Well that the subtext that was beaming off your post buddy...
Forget it. All I was trying was ask people to be more inclusive to the people who they felt were misinformed or even ignorant to the matter at hand, so there could be an actual conversation or dialogue but I've been met by just sass or been called stupid so I'm out.
uncelestial
Member
I bet you anything that at worst, there are just adjustments to how to involve yourself and share your opinion. Going to a protest and inviting some friends would be a fantastic thing to do, and being white would not be counted against you, I promise. It makes people feel good to see you there. I once escorted my friend to her abortion because a bunch of shitheels were on the steps of Planned Parenthood and she was scared. I didn't belong in that role any less simply because I wasn't a woman and going through that judgement personally. I had privilege (and a few inches more of height) that helped her out. I didn't handle myself all that well (I said "why don't you suck my dick you fucking Nazis," as I recall -- oh the angst!), but to this day it boosts my self esteem to think I was capable of that. You might find that it has the very same effect on you to try to help in this way, and as a white person I know you have privileges that could help (just like I did as a man who wasn't as easily intimidated). You might be the one who talks a cop down from something drastic. People might see you and feel supported and surrounded by allies. Think about how nice that would feel. There's another way here besides barging in and insisting that the very first idea you had about how to approach the BLM movement was correct.
excelsiorlef
Member
Lol you opened up with sass by assuming that everyone who is in support of this would bitch and complain if they were caught in traffic.
Not to mention the whole rant about this thread being anti-white. Like I said I'm white, I don't feel belittled or unwelcome in this thread. Some of the people who oppose this method of protesting and have been justifiably criticized harshly are likely not all white either.
But ok bye.
I wouldn't stand on my car because I'd likely fall through but I sure as hell wouldn't hold any scorn for the protestors. I'd calmly call whomever I'm going to meet and tell them I'll be late, because whatever my emergency is it probably doesn't weigh more on the importance scale when compared to dead kids.
See, I'm human, if I was on that bridge, yes, I'd be annoyed, but, thing is, I get it. I understand. I respect. So no, I'd hold no ill will.
One of the things I've come to believe is that non disruptive actions are probably fine in our democracy when your issue is on the table and the people in power are working towards your goal. But with these protests, you gotta understand, no-ones working towards these demands. There are no candidates who have taken this as their sole mission, no vote I can cast that will make this all end. And it is these times when disruptive protests are needed. The time table needs to be changed from later to now and that probably won't happen without disruption because in this matter a lot of people don't get it, they aren't pushing for it and frankly that won't change because a lot of us just aren't affected by it. And the fact that most of us aren't affected by it is not looking likely to change any time soon so this "later" isn't something like next elections or anything, it's not even in the foreseeable future, telling people to wait for a different time is essentially telling them to just give it up.
As a person with little drive in my life I have a great deal of respect for these people. They risk their record, their futures for a cause I'm too much of a chicken shit to do myself, no way in hell I'm going to critique them.
Holy meltdown guy. There has been plenty of dialogue and conversation.
KarneeKarnay
Member
Then why do it? This protest won't get national coverage, it will get a five minute segment on the news. Who is the meant to sway? Who are they trying to appeal to? If you want change you have to encourage people to appeal to the government for it. Blocking off a highway for a cause is about as useful as stopping people from going to their college campus.
Just because others have expressed a similar view to mine doesn't make the argument any less valid. If you want criticise my argument, destruct it, examine it and point out the failings. Just because it has been mentioned by others before now, doesn't make it any less valid. A better use of your time would not to have even addressed it before if it bothered you. By claiming this you are only attempting to pass off legitimate concerns invested in this debate as not fitting your view of this issue. This is not an issue that should be limited in scope and you do it a disservice in doing so.
Aside from the problem of your statement first of all being based on the presumption that I said "but", (something easily corrected with a review of my original post), you didn't say that "..it is all about how KarneeKarnay feels." You said:
That's not an assumption. That is a massive generalisation.
I don't think you quite understand what you have said. Lets use an example. Protestors against the war in Iraq, don't support the killing of US soldiers there, therefor they don't actually know what they are supporting? Don't the Taliban out there want the same thing? Your point seems really silly when you break it down.
Are you implying that anyone that doesn't support the disruptive action taken is racist and against black people? Your logic is dangerous. Your generalising everyone that isn't supporting you as against you. That is not what MLK stood for. In the words of MLK himself.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I wouldn't stand on my car and applaud, no, that might damage the roof of my leased car. And that's no good. I'd probably turn off my vehicle, and offer to join the protesters though.
"Why should black people try to reach a larger audience than black people?" is what this sounds like to me. I, as a white person, post regularly in these types of threads and I never feel like it's 'off-limits' to me. Maybe it's because I can look beyond my own privilege and recognize that there is a huge issue of inequality and institutionalized racism that needs to be dealt with. If you feel like you're being singled out for your opinion then maybe it's your opinion that's bad.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Next person to summon MLK gets half off on a pair of Ugg boots and a Panera gift card
DragonSworne
Banned
instead of bitching about traffic why not help end police brutality against minorities?
Crimson_Gold
Member
Where's the moral superiority in that?
People have created an image of MLK that suits the narrative that blacks should be docile in their attempts at change. People often say that Dr King would do things differently. Then you read posts of his own words and see that the Dr King people like to present and the real Dr King are two very different people.
Silver Arrows
Banned
Auctopus, you already dug your grave. Probably should go back to the Driveclub OT for a bit.
What? I'm not following with this one.
http://www.masslive.com/news/boston/index.ssf/2015/01/black_lives_matter_protesters.html
Last year when they did this in Boston, an ambulance carrying car crash victims was blocked from getting to the hospital.
Hopefully nothing like that happened yesterday.
Last year when they did this in Boston, an ambulance carrying car crash victims was blocked from getting to the hospital.
Hopefully nothing like that happened yesterday.
People use MLK to at best shut down discussion, at worse shame black people.
I spent my morning commute reading through the first half-dozen pages of this thread and good lord am I pissed off. In so many ways.
Once again, people can't see past their own noses when it comes to the value of protests. The whole point of activism like this is to make noise and keep the cause on people's radars. It's not about winning hearts and minds, because the people who are on their side are already on their side, and the apathetic majority isn't going to do anything, so pissing them off doesn't matter. And if this is enough to make you against the cause, you were never for it.
Secondly, really, invoking MLK's name on fucking Martin Luther King Jr. Day to tell these people to settle down boils my blood. I can't even go further on that one, because if I start, I'm never going to stop.
Thirdly, did anyone actually die or miss out on their hypothetical heart transplant or leave their nonexistant child hanging at their closed school? No? Didn't think so. Because if that did happen, it'd be all over the damn news with, "Black Lives Matter kills angel child with its negro-thug behavior." Last night, here in Chicago, the 10PM news literally had a lead-in about this that said something to the effect of, "A bunch of black people created a traffic catastrophe out west."
As a white guy, good GOD does it annoy me when other white people put the value of a hypothetical beyond the value of actual, real problems. While you're over here talking about traffic and ambulances getting held up at the bridge when they're trying to deliver life-saving organs (by the way, helicopters exist and are used in emergency situations like a time-sensitive organ delivery anyway, so this situation is irrelevant), these people are actually trying to make a damn difference so that, just maybe, their kids won't have to walk around in fear.
Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Once again, people can't see past their own noses when it comes to the value of protests. The whole point of activism like this is to make noise and keep the cause on people's radars. It's not about winning hearts and minds, because the people who are on their side are already on their side, and the apathetic majority isn't going to do anything, so pissing them off doesn't matter. And if this is enough to make you against the cause, you were never for it.
Secondly, really, invoking MLK's name on fucking Martin Luther King Jr. Day to tell these people to settle down boils my blood. I can't even go further on that one, because if I start, I'm never going to stop.
Thirdly, did anyone actually die or miss out on their hypothetical heart transplant or leave their nonexistant child hanging at their closed school? No? Didn't think so. Because if that did happen, it'd be all over the damn news with, "Black Lives Matter kills angel child with its negro-thug behavior." Last night, here in Chicago, the 10PM news literally had a lead-in about this that said something to the effect of, "A bunch of black people created a traffic catastrophe out west."
As a white guy, good GOD does it annoy me when other white people put the value of a hypothetical beyond the value of actual, real problems. While you're over here talking about traffic and ambulances getting held up at the bridge when they're trying to deliver life-saving organs (by the way, helicopters exist and are used in emergency situations like a time-sensitive organ delivery anyway, so this situation is irrelevant), these people are actually trying to make a damn difference so that, just maybe, their kids won't have to walk around in fear.
Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.
boiled goose
good with gravy
But blocking bridges is what mlk did...
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Might help if you highlight who 'you guys' is.
Multiquote doesn't work well on mobile sometimes.
Crimson_Gold
Member
The real one? Sure. The one that people cite to shut down conversation? He did no such thing
Powerful and interesting topic for discussion...
To some up my take on it...
Your communication is only as effective in as much as the other party understands what your trying to convey...
If the majority of people you want to hear your message, are not "getting" your message than the problem is on YOU, not them...
Now on the whole it really comes down to the goals of the protesters. If protesting is being used to create awareness and open a dialog with more and more people than methods that create negative perceptions and associations to said actions are probobly not the most effective way to achieve their goal...It really comes down to the goal of it all.
I think dismissing folks who dont "get" your message as people who will never get it is intellectual dishonesty and a cop out. Everyone starts some where, and everyone is on the line at some point in the direction of change.
In this day and age I think there are more creative and effective ways that could be used to protest that would work better for the cause it self and for the public as a whole.
Now on a personal note, I can see both sides of the coin here. I can say as a single dad of 2 girls ages 6 and 8, if I got stuck unable to reach my kids that would most def upset me quite a bit. Obviously for most there was no school, but as others have said you have other situations were this method of protest could cause someone real harm (EMS, etc.) Honestly any protesting from any group that I felt was harming my kids in someway is going to lose out on that emotion/perception regardless of the truth of the matter.
You'd drown out your message in the noise of my emotional upset. Humans are more moved by emotion than reason. If your trying to make a person think but are stimulating them in an emotional way that is in-congruent than your simply not being as an effective communicator as you could be.And the emotional side of things will almost always win out.
A common theme on this board is people tend to think because something should be received or understood a certain way, that automatically makes it right and everything else invalid. The problem is that truth and perception dont always match up because each individual has different belief/value structures and emotional connections to said structures. The political threads are a great example of this. Sadly sometimes because people technically "know" better doesnt mean the act in a way that is aligned with that "knowing" better knowledge.
You can see this beyond the spectrum were discussing now, look at every day life, habits, etc. People act and do things that they know are not good for them. Reason and understanding in most cases does not trump strong emotions and habit.
To some up my take on it...
Your communication is only as effective in as much as the other party understands what your trying to convey...
If the majority of people you want to hear your message, are not "getting" your message than the problem is on YOU, not them...
Now on the whole it really comes down to the goals of the protesters. If protesting is being used to create awareness and open a dialog with more and more people than methods that create negative perceptions and associations to said actions are probobly not the most effective way to achieve their goal...It really comes down to the goal of it all.
I think dismissing folks who dont "get" your message as people who will never get it is intellectual dishonesty and a cop out. Everyone starts some where, and everyone is on the line at some point in the direction of change.
In this day and age I think there are more creative and effective ways that could be used to protest that would work better for the cause it self and for the public as a whole.
Now on a personal note, I can see both sides of the coin here. I can say as a single dad of 2 girls ages 6 and 8, if I got stuck unable to reach my kids that would most def upset me quite a bit. Obviously for most there was no school, but as others have said you have other situations were this method of protest could cause someone real harm (EMS, etc.) Honestly any protesting from any group that I felt was harming my kids in someway is going to lose out on that emotion/perception regardless of the truth of the matter.
You'd drown out your message in the noise of my emotional upset. Humans are more moved by emotion than reason. If your trying to make a person think but are stimulating them in an emotional way that is in-congruent than your simply not being as an effective communicator as you could be.And the emotional side of things will almost always win out.
A common theme on this board is people tend to think because something should be received or understood a certain way, that automatically makes it right and everything else invalid. The problem is that truth and perception dont always match up because each individual has different belief/value structures and emotional connections to said structures. The political threads are a great example of this. Sadly sometimes because people technically "know" better doesnt mean the act in a way that is aligned with that "knowing" better knowledge.
You can see this beyond the spectrum were discussing now, look at every day life, habits, etc. People act and do things that they know are not good for them. Reason and understanding in most cases does not trump strong emotions and habit.
Giant Panda
Member
I would have been annoyed if my route was blocked, by BLM or any other group. On one hand it is undeniable that this form of protesting does pretty well on raising awareness, but it accomplishes this by inconveniencing many people to the point it makes to the news. Because of that, I would have to think that this form of protesting does poorly on the persuasion metric. I haven't really thought about it much, but surely there must be a form of protesting that does just as well on raising awareness while also doing better on the persuasion metric.
theignoramus
Member
I dont think their desire was to "win people over", it was to get their cause to the forefront of national attention.
As bitterly as BLM has been denounced around here, their aggressive and confrontational methods forced two presidential candidates to confront issues of police brutality and institutional racism in a way they would not have done otherwise.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Haven't seen a single mention of this in the national or international news. Or on Twitter.
theignoramus
Member
It was trending on twitter last night and a simple look at google news would show you the Guardian, among other papers, covered it.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
TV news.
I agree with you here, the problem is why are people arguing as if you cant achieve both? Meaning winning more people over, garnering attention, etc. Honestly, I think coming up with methods that achieve both are reasonable and doable. I get people are defensive because of the goal and context, but if I where to put my self in the position of protest organizer or someone trying to make waves for a cause/movement I think one could come up with more effective tactics.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Because the effort achieve both isn't worth it. If anything, I'd rather have different groups attempting different goals.
In the Civil Rights Movement, it wasn't just MLK jr. Sure he was there with his disruptive protests, and no, he wasn't gaining people's approval for that but making it known what will be done if people don't listen.
But there were others. There was Malcolm, there was Stokley, Septima Poinsette Clark, Diane Nash, Ella Baker. Some mostly spoke and weren't as disruptive, some were student protesters that were VERY disruptive.
And then there were the Panthers and the Deacons. The folks that made it known that they will protect their own by any means necessary, approval be damned.
Frankly, black folks in the US need all those different styles and we are surely lacking on the third. They need the status quo to be willing to listen, but also afraid of what happens when they don't.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Do you not go to work or something?
What about taking your kid to the doctor?
Or maybe you've never had a wife go in labor?
What about ambulances?
That guy said nothing wrong. Stop demonizing him.
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