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[DOT DASH DOT]

Why not? Because you personally don't think so and therefore it's impossible for someone else to think otherwise unless they're.. lying..? I really don't get why it's difficult to understand different people have difference preferences for what they find enjoyable.

Ha, I'm saying I prefer 60fps, and many others do too, but a preference is totally different than flat out saying '30 is unplayable' '30 is a slideshow' when it isn't. God knows how all these 30fps have sold over the years with a slideshow framerate? Unplayable is when you can't control a character or aim a weapon properly, or jumping around when bad lag hits playing an online game. Like I say it's OTT, I'm all for preferences.

 

[etta]

No. There are plenty of objective statements one can make.

Like "My computer hardware offers 6 times higher CPU performance in terms of LINPACK than a PS4".

Or "SGSSAA features superior shader aliasing reduction compared to MSAA".

Or, to make it more relevant for this thread, "The PC version of Rise of the Tomb Raider will be capable of running at far higher framerate and visual fidelity compared to the Xbox One version".

Wait, then how is "30fps is unplayable" a valid objective statement?

 

[Mohasus]

The shots on the last page looked mighty nice, I still wonder why some people favor 1080p 60fps over much better IQ at 4k 30fps or 1440p with some dips below 60fps...

Because that's not how it works.

http://images.nvidia.com/geforce-co...a-geforce-gtx-900-series-performance-txaa.png

Look at the averages from the 980Ti (Rainbow Six Siege in this case):
1080p: 63.2 FPS
1440p: 40.3 FPS
4k: 19.1 FPS

As a 1440p display owner with a GTX970, I chose 1440p with lower details so I could play @60 FPS.

 

[Free Roaming Chicken]

For me it boils down to what one is used to playing, doesn't matter if console or pc. I recently purchased a new laptop. I went from a 670M which would run games around 30 fps. I was used to that and it didn't bother me. However, with the latest newer games coming out that were becoming more demanding it was time to upgrade. So I went with a laptop utilizing two 980M's in SLI. Now most games run well above 60 fps in ultra or some cases high settings.

The visual and fidelity difference between 30 and going 60+ fps was mind blowing to me. The game play and animations were smooth as butter. I could bring up CE and do a speed hack to say 1/10th of normal speed and the movement was still ultra smooth and silky in slow motion. But when I try that on the old laptop at 30 fps it was a jerky slideshow. At the time I truly didn't realize there was that much difference.

 

[Durante]

Wait, then how is "30fps is unplayable" a valid objective statement?

It's not an objective statement, it's a subjective statement.
I was merely pointing out that your conclusion that because that is subjective, everything is is a non-sequitur.

 

[Parsnip]

Wow... Are you able to watch movies?

Keep in mind though that preferring higher framerate is not just about how things look.

 

[Qassim]

Ha, I'm saying I prefer 60fps, and many others do too, but a preference is totally different than flat out saying '30 is unplayable' '30 is a slideshow' when it isn't. God knows how all these 30fps have sold over the years with a slideshow framerate? Unplayable is when you can't control a character or aim a weapon properly, or jumping around when bad lag hits playing an online game. Like I say it's OTT, I'm all for preferences.

A person saying 30fps is unplayable is saying it's unplayable for them (i.e. a preference), not that it's factually unplayable for everyone else too. I thought that'd be pretty easy to understand.

 

[etta]

It's not an objective statement, it's a subjective statement.
I was merely pointing out that your conclusion that because that is subjective, everything is is a non-sequitur.

I'm confused lols.
I'm arguing that if you think it's okay for a person to say that 30fps is unplayable, then I think that it's okay for another person to call that irrational [PCMR-type] behaviour.
In other words, if Person A is entitled to think what they want, Person B should be entitled to think what they want about Person A's thoughts.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Keep in mind though that preferring higher framerate is not just about how things look.

Of course, but UnrealEck said he could actually "notice the separation between frames," which is a sensation I'm trying to wrap my head around—it sounds really annoying.

 

[jim2point0]

Wow... Are you able to watch movies?

Apples and oranges. Being able to watch movies at 24 FPS is nothing like playing games at 30 FPS. In games, you are in control of the camera. And you can be moving that camera much faster than it does in some movies. Not only that, but the framerate in teh game directly corresponds with how responsive they feel. This is why pro counter strike players are objectively better than they would be at lower framerates. Those guys consider 60 FPS "low."

 

[thelastword]

My rig will likely run it at 1440p and above 60fps. Any dips should be minimal, and I've got freesync to ensure everything stays smooth.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I have a 1440p monitor too and there's no way I'm playing a game at 1080p unless it's a fighting game where my hardware can't handle 60fps. Anything else, I'd prefer to lower some settings so I could game at native. 60fps, dips below 60fps and 30fps are all fine for me with any other genre.

 

[DOT DASH DOT]

A person saying 30fps is unplayable is saying it's unplayable for them (i.e. a preference), not that it's factually unplayable for everyone else too. I thought that'd be pretty easy to understand.

I do understand, but it's still OTT.

 

[ussjtrunks]

For me it comes down to input device,

With a controller I have no issue with 30fps

With a mouse 30 fps is unplayable for whatever reason, it just feels awful

Saying that hoping to run @ 1440p 60fps at decent settings

 

[Spirited]

I'm confused lols.
I'm arguing that if you think it's okay for a person to say that 30fps is unplayable, then I think that it's okay for another person to call that irrational [PCMR-type] behaviour.
In other words, if Person A is entitled to think what they want, Person B should be entitled to think what they want about Person A's thoughts.

To begin with, PCMR is according to guidelines a bannable thing to say.
The other thing is that calling someone out as a PCMR just because he has a hard time adjusting to 30 fps is ridicilous as it's not even a pc thing(Also it feels more telling of the guy who does it than the guy who is "PCMR"), anyone can have problems with framerate.
Only reason it's probably pc is because not on many other platforms you are able to go for higher framerates.

I personally dislike playing games in 30 fps and especially after I've played many games in higher framerates but it doesn't discourage me from games, but I do understand other people who think it's a more severe problem.

 

[Parsnip]

Of course, but UnrealEck said he could actually "notice the separation between frames," which is a sensation I'm trying to wrap my head around—it sounds really annoying.

I can imagine it. Depending on the game I feel that way sometimes for a few minutes if I go straight from 60 back to 30. I can imagine that going from something like 144 back to 30 is quite something.

On one hand I'm slightly envious when people say they run can run games at 144, but then I think that maybe I'm better off for now at least, because I imagine it's very difficult to settle for less after that. And I don't have the money for such habits.

 

[TechJunk]

Was gonna wait for PS4, but this PC release is tempting. I have a 750 ti, so it will be low end gaming (actually probably on par with PS4 version).
GREENMANGAMING has a preordwr reduction now, $44.99 I believe. Any better prices out there?

 

[Parsnip]

Was gonna wait for PS4, but this PC release is tempting. I have a 750 ti, so it will be low end gaming (actually probably on par with PS4 version).
GREENMANGAMING has a preordwr reduction now, $44.99 I believe. Any better prices out there?

I haven't checked lately, but you may find some cheaper nvidia codes floating around in the BST threads and such.

 

[tuxfool]

Wow... Are you able to watch movies?

Oddly enough I prefer videos shot at 60fps.

Of course, but UnrealEck said he could actually "notice the separation between frames," which is a sensation I'm trying to wrap my head around—it sounds really annoying.

You can totally feel it, especially if you're used to higher frame rates. I can get used to 30 fps especially with decent motion blur, but I can totally tell the jerkiness that comes from running things at 30fps.

 

[etta]

To begin with, PCMR is according to guidelines a bannable thing to say.
The other thing is that calling someone out as a PCMR just because he has a hard time adjusting to 30 fps is ridicilous as it's not even a pc thing(Also it feels more telling of the guy who does it than the guy who is "PCMR"), anyone can have problems with framerate.
Only reason it's probably pc is because not on many other platforms you are able to go for higher framerates.

I personally dislike playing games in 30 fps and especially after I've played many games in higher framerates but it doesn't discourage me from games, but I do understand other people who think it's a more severe problem.

I am not arguing about what is being said, that's boring stuff.
I'm talking about the idea, how the stuff that is being said is said. If you allow one person to say that their preference is "30fps is not playable", then you have to allow another person to say "that's a PCMR thing to say".
The consistency has to be present throughout.

Because one of those is a personal preference and the other is negatively judging someone for their personal preference. How can they be consistent if they are two very different things.

Because they are both subjective opinions, being negative is not relevant here. Are opinions only allowed if they are positive?
Saying "that thing you said is very PCMR" is just as much of an opinion as "30fps is unplayable" is.

 

[thelastword]

Because that's not how it works.

http://images.nvidia.com/geforce-co...a-geforce-gtx-900-series-performance-txaa.png

Look at the averages from the 980Ti (Rainbow Six Siege in this case):
1080p: 63.2 FPS
1440p: 40.3 FPS
4k: 19.1 FPS

As a 1440p display owner with a GTX970, I chose 1440p with lower details so I could play @60 FPS.

Well, I do agree, in your case you did what I'd do. If siege had a singleplayer campaign then I'd be perfectly fine with playing it at 1440p 40-45fps or 30fps with everything dialed up,..... since it's competitive online I'd likely do as you did and lower some settings for a smooth 60fps online, but rez would have to be and stay native.

For me it comes down to input device,

With a controller I have no issue with 30fps

With a mouse 30 fps is unplayable for whatever reason, it just feels awful

Saying that hoping to run @ 1440p 60fps at decent settings

Since I'm buying quite a few PC games these days I realize I'm more interested in games that support native controller support, so here goes, however I have played games at low framerates before when I gamed on PC, I'm not sure if it's any less playable with or without a mouse....I played titles like Crysis and Fear at native 1900*1200 and could barely muster 25fps with a 8800GTX. I don't think sub 30fps games with a controller are more playable or ideal tbh..

Was gonna wait for PS4, but this PC release is tempting. I have a 750 ti, so it will be low end gaming (actually probably on par with PS4 version).
GREENMANGAMING has a preordwr reduction now, $44.99 I believe. Any better prices out there?

I think those 44.99 prices expired yesterday, I logged in to purchase SF5 at 44.99 last night, but it was back to 59.99 when I did. ROTR was part of that promotion as well.

 

[Alo81]

Pretty sure the reason I'm struggling in Bloodborne so much is that I just can't handle <= 30 FPS. It feels so unresponsive. Especially after playing basically every game at ~ 60 FPS. Which is why I spent way too much on GPU power trying to get ~4K 60fps in every game. SLI support is definitely required.

I feel like the biggest blight on Bloodborne is the inconsistent frametimes. Eventually (for me) I can look past it, but there is this constant neggling slight stutter that makes the nearly consistent 30fps they offer feel worse than 30.

No game has made me wish for a Rivatuner for consoles more.

 

[tuxfool]

I feel like the biggest blight on Bloodborne is the inconsistent frametimes. Eventually (for me) I can look past it, but there is this constant neggling slight stutter that makes the nearly consistent 30fps they offer feel worse than 30.

No game has made me wish for a Rivatuner for consoles more.

Yah. The frame pacing hasn't been fixed in that game. The dodgy frame pacing was even seen in the DkS3 demos. Honestly I find that slightly ridiculous, the likes of Bungie and Blizzard settled that problem really quickly the moment it was reported.

Luckily these issues become less of a problem at higher frame rates and rivatuner.

 

[roadrunn3r]

If you allow one person to say that their preference is "30fps is not playable", then you have to allow another person to say "that's a PCMR thing to say".
The consistency has to be present throughout.

Because one of those is a personal preference and the other is negatively judging someone for their personal preference. How can they be consistent if they are two very different things.

Because they are both subjective opinions, being negative is not relevant here. Are opinions only allowed if they are positive?
Saying "that thing you said is very PCMR" is just as much of an opinion as "30fps is unplayable" is.

Well blame society and our culture for perfectly accepting the first case and frown upon the second. Being negative is exactly what makes them different. Besides I don't think anyone would last very long here if all he does is judge others based on personal opinions and categorize them as "pcmr" or whatever else. There's a reason for that and not quite subjective.

 

[Spinifex]

Wow... Are you able to watch movies?

I like movies because the frame pacing is excellent.

Not being entirely sarcastic.

 

[TechJunk]

I think those 44.99 prices expired yesterday, I logged in to purchase SF5 at 44.99 last night, but it was back to 59.99 when I did. ROTR was part of that promotion as well.

Yup, up to $48.99 now with that 20% off code that pops up. I'll wait I think, I'm in Canada, and that's still a lot of money

 

[Nyteshade517]

Yup, up to $48.99 now with that 20% off code that pops up. I'll wait I think, I'm in Canada, and that's still a lot of money

GREENM-ANGAME-25PJAN

http://www.greenmangaming.com/most-anticipated-2016/

 

[Kezen]

This game will use Denuvo :
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/far-cry-primal-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-will-be-protected-by-the-denuvo-anti-tamper-tech/

 

[texhnolyze]

This game will use Denuvo :
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/far-cry-primal-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-will-be-protected-by-the-denuvo-anti-tamper-tech/

Well, there it is.
Denuvo will only get bigger and bigger from now on.

 

[Vuze]

This game will use Denuvo :
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/far-cry-primal-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-will-be-protected-by-the-denuvo-anti-tamper-tech/

TIL Denuvo headquarters are located in the city where I study. Interesting lol

More on point, I'm not surprised that more companies start using it. I solely hope it will not pose a problem in 10 years when they moved on to the next DRM of choice and Denuvo is not operating any more by chance.

 

[Corpsepyre]

This game will use Denuvo :
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/far-cry-primal-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-will-be-protected-by-the-denuvo-anti-tamper-tech/

it was expected that Rise would have it, but Ubisoft too? Guess they realized that's the way to go forward, to protect their titles.

 

[gogogow]

This game will use Denuvo :
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/far-cry-primal-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-will-be-protected-by-the-denuvo-anti-tamper-tech/

Does it impact performances?

 

[Lime]

The astonishing attitude towards game preservation in the games industry, I tell you.

 

[Qassim]

Has Denuvo actually been proven to have any noticeable negative effects yet? I haven't had any issues with games that have supposedly had it so far.

 

[Kezen]

Well, there it is.
Denuvo will only get bigger and bigger from now on.

TIL Denuvo headquarters are located in the city where I study. Interesting lol

More on point, I'm not surprised that more companies start using it. I solely hope it will not pose a problem in 10 years when they moved on to the next DRM of choice and Denuvo is not operating any more by chance.

Well it seems to be a very effective anti piracy measure, I don't follow the crack scene though.

I understand the concerns for long term preservation, who knows if we will be able to play it in ten years ?

Aside from that Denuvo has not been formely proved to impede performance.

 

[JaseC]

Has Denuvo actually been proven to have any noticeable negative affects yet? I haven't had any issues with games that have supposedly had it so far.

It would delete Arkham Knight's installation folder if you attempted to verify the game data, but this was quickly fixed.

 

[j0hnny_385]

Does it impact performances?

Has Denuvo actually been proven to have any noticeable negative affects yet? I haven't had any issues with games that have supposedly had it so far.

No.
There was a scare a while back that Denuvo wrecks SSDs but that was never proven, AFAIK.
Personally never had any issues with Denuvo on my system (performance or any other).

 

[Durante]

Has Denuvo actually been proven to have any noticeable negative effects yet? I haven't had any issues with games that have supposedly had it so far.

It has no negative performance or reliability effects which have been conclusively shown. It also appears to be effective.

As I said in another thread, the fact that it's an effective anti-tamper solution is really the only troubling thing about it -- mostly if you are interested in preservation of the medium and modding. I'm interested in both, so that's a bummer.

 

[prudislav]

This game will use Denuvo :
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/far-cry-primal-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-will-be-protected-by-the-denuvo-anti-tamper-tech/

just a rumour in case of RotR based on a picture they fastly removed unlike Fat Cry Primal where its confirmed by eula

Has Denuvo actually been proven to have any noticeable negative effects yet? I haven't had any issues with games that have supposedly had it so far.

limited modding and possibly unability of preserve it in future , also there seems to be some fishy things in the protection ... like you can see in FC's eula http://store.steampowered.com//eula/371660_eula_1

3.1 THE PRODUCT IS PROTECTED BY DIGITAL RIGHTS MANAGEMENT SOFTWARE (&#8220;DRM SOFTWARE&#8221 AND DENUVO ANTI-TAMPER PROTECTION TECHNOLOGY (&#8220;ANTI-TAMPER TECHNOLOGY&#8221. YOU HEREBY AGREE, ACKNOWLEDGE AND CONSENT TO THE FOLLOWING REGARDING THE DRM SOFTWARE: (I) THE INSTALLATION OF THE PRODUCT WILL CAUSE THE DRM SOFTWARE TO BE INSTALLED ON YOUR COMPUTER; (II) THE DRM SOFTWARE MAY LIMIT THE NUMBER OF INSTALLATIONS OF THE PRODUCT; (III) THE DRM SOFTWARE MAY INSTALL ON YOUR COMPUTER ADDITIONAL COMPONENTS REQUIRED FOR COPY PROTECTION; (IV) DURING THE INSTALLATION AND/OR THE FIRST LAUNCH OF THE PRODUCT, AN ONLINE CONNECTION MAY BE REQUIRED TO UNLOCK THE PRODUCT THROUGH THE DRM SOFTWARE AND (V) CERTAIN FILES OF THE ANTI-TAMPER TECHNOLOGY MAY REMAIN EVEN AFTER THE PRODUCT IS UNINSTALLED FROM YOUR COMPUTER.
IN NO EVENT SHALL UBISOFT BE LIABLE IN CONNECTION WITH THE COMPONENTS THAT MAY BE INSTALLED ON YOUR COMPUTER BY ANY DRM SOFTWARE OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE ANTI-TAMPER TECHNOLOGY. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION, PLEASE VISIT THE WEBSITE OF THE DRM SOFTWARE OR OF THE ANTI-TAMPER TECHNOLOGY. AN INTERNET CONNECTION, A UPLAY ACCOUNT AND INSTALLATION OF THE UPLAY CLIENT SOFTWARE (WWW.UPLAY.COM) AND REGISTRATION WITH ENCLOSED SINGLE-USE SERIAL CODE ARE REQUIRED TO ACTIVATE THE GAME AFTER INSTALLATION ON ANY NEW COMPUTER, AUTHENTICATE YOUR COMPUTER AT ANY GIVEN TIME, ACCESS ONLINE FEATURES, PLAY OR UNLOCK EXCLUSIVE CONTENT. WHILE THERE IS NO LIMIT TO THE TOTAL NUMBER OF COMPUTERS ON WHICH THE PRODUCT MAY BE ACTIVATED, YOU MAY ONLY ACTIVATE THE PRODUCT ON FIVE (5) DISTINCT COMPUTERS IN A 24 HOUR PERIOD. IF YOU CIRCUMVENT THE DRM SOFTWARE, THE PRODUCT WILL NOT BE ACCESSIBLE ANYMORE AND THE LICENSE GRANTED PER THIS END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT WILL BE DEEMED TERMINATED FOR MATERIAL BREACH. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR KEEPING THE SERIAL CODE OF THIS PRODUCT AT ALL TIMES. YOU WILL NEED IT TO INSTALL THE PRODUCT ON OTHER COMPUTERS. THE SERIAL CODE MAY ONLY BE USED FOR ONE SINGLE UPLAY ACCOUNT. AGE RESTRICTIONS MAY BE IMPOSED TO ACCESS ONLINE SERVICES AND FEATURES IN COMPLIANCE WITH LOCAL LAWS.

Also there seems to be some call home in denuvo as there seems to be some "offline mode" expiration time after which game needs to be reactivated or when new patch releases while you have Origin/steam in offline mode game becomes unplayable.

As for the perfprmance hit , nobody knows ... can't really be tested as for any of these games there is no version without it

 

[Kezen]

just a rumour based on a picture they fastly removed unlike Fat Cry Primal where its confirmed by eula

Square Enix's Just Cause 3 used Denuvo.
The writing is on the wall.

 

[texhnolyze]

just a rumour based on a picture they fastly removed unlike Fat Cry Primal where its confirmed by eula

The fact that they removed the page just make this rumor more compelling.

 

[JaseC]

The fact that they removed the page just make this rumor more compelling.

I have my doubts that the page existed in the first place. I can't remember the last time a cropped screenshot was later proven to be accurate, not to mention the suspicion that's inherent to "Oh, hey, look what I and only I managed to see before it was pulled!".

 

[texhnolyze]

I have my doubts that the page existed in the first place.

That is also a possibility.

Anyway, I also saw Hitman page from the reddit source. It could be someone's doing, but why would anyone do that?

 

[VolticArchangel]

This game will use Denuvo :
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/far-cry-primal-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-will-be-protected-by-the-denuvo-anti-tamper-tech/

Good stuff. Should become a standard for ALL future PC releases from this year on. I really hope Denuvo has/comes up with a lower cost alternative for indies so they can use it as well.

Also, V uses Denuvo. Has it been cracked/pirated yet ? Hope it isn't. It wasn't far from a million units on PC. Konami weren't that impressed by PES numbers last time (IIRC it wasn't a good port ? Or was that FIFA?).

 

[prudislav]

imo they might have only trolled the pirate sites ;-)
There is for example denuvo support page for Anno 2205 which doesnt use it in final build (only press build had it)

 

[Durante]

Good stuff. Should become a standard for ALL future PC releases from this year on. I really hope Denuvo has/comes up with a lower cost alternative for indies so they can use it as well.

Why? It's terrible for preservation and modding, and you can't honestly believe that indie sales in particular are in any way significantly affected by illegal downloads.

 

[Corpsepyre]

Good stuff. Should become a standard for ALL future PC releases from this year on. I really hope Denuvo has/comes up with a lower cost alternative for indies so they can use it as well.

Also, V uses Denuvo. Has it been cracked/pirated yet ? Hope it isn't. It wasn't far from a million units on PC. Konami weren't that impressed by PES numbers last time (IIRC it wasn't a good port ? Or was that FIFA?).

V was pirated.

 

[DieH@rd]

Does it impact performances?

No.

 

[prudislav]

Good stuff. Should become a standard for ALL future PC releases from this year on. I really hope Denuvo has/comes up with a lower cost alternative for indies so they can use it as well. .

well honestly "uncrackable" protection with market monopoly is bad thing for everyone , even for the denuvo company themselv

Also, V uses Denuvo. Has it been cracked/pirated yet ? Hope it isn't. It wasn't far from a million units on PC.

METAL GEAR SOLID V: GROUND ZEROES (glorified demo - steamworks DRm - cracked day1)
Owners: 618,476 ± 17,081
METAL GEAR SOLID V: THE PHANTOM PAIN (full title - steamworks+ denuvo - partially cracked 3 months after)
Owners: 868,149 ± 20,227

imo this just proves DRM is mostly irrelevant to the actual sales

 

[DieH@rd]

What else from recent games uses Denuvo? Battlefront and Mad Max? What's the state of their cracking efforts?

 

[Corpsepyre]

What else from recent games uses Denuvo? Battlefront and Mad Max? What's the state of their cracking efforts?

Mad Max has been fully playable. Just Cause 3 remains uncracked as it apparently uses a new form of Denuvo. Same with the newer version of Arkham Knight. Battlefront, being an online title, will not be cracked.