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[mnz]

Red face/black face does not have the same racist historical connotations in Europe. I only learned about that recently, to be honest.

Some political floats from today:

"Sex offenders" rocket is launched, the flag says "that's how nice next NYE is going to be"

Erdogan (President of Turkey) and Islamic State clinck glasses with Kurdish blood

"Wave of refugees"

Kaczyński (chairman of the right-wing Law and Justice party) stepping all over Poland

Horst Seehofer (Minister-President of Bavaria) trying to close the "open borders"

Iowa caucus leaving Trump with a black-eye

This is completely fucked. The Native Americans "didn't do anything immigration" because they busy being the victims of genocide.

Yeah, that's the point of the float...

 

[chadskin]

The tank could have been seen as mockery of the AfD's latest statements if they had added caricatures of AfD politicians. But without it the intention seems to point rather clearly in the other direction.

I googled around and found that the people responsible for the tank already issued an apology. So it really wasn't a mockery of the AfD comments which would've actually been clever.

 

[la_briola]

This is completely fucked. The Native Americans "didn't do anything immigration" because they busy being the victims of genocide.

As I said: miss translation.

 

[Syf]

Say what you want about USA but you don't see this kinda shit here.

LOL

 

[Henkka]

It should be noted carnival parades in Germany are always used to comment on current political events, sometimes intentionally in a way to stir up controversies and debates.

That said, last year had certainly a different tone:

"This is the true downfall of the Western World".

Heh, kind of reminds me of that Charlie Hebdo cartoon... We just react emotionally to the latest big thing, not making an opinion of the big picture. Refugees drown in the Mediterranean, we must help all refugees. Refugees harass women at NYE, we must close the borders.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

But Europe can't be racist, so this is just another misunderstanding..

 

[Shuggananas]

Heh, kind of reminds me of that Charlie Hebdo cartoon... We just react emotionally to the latest big thing, not making an opinion of the big picture. Refugees drown in the Mediterranean, we must help all refugees. Refugees harass women at NYE, we must close the borders.

Except charlie hebdo is satire, these guys are 100% srs

 

[halfbeast]

Say what you want about USA but you don't see this kinda shit here.

 

[Jacobi]

Except charlie hebdo is satire, these guys are 100% srs

Carnival isn't really about being 100% srs

 

[El Topo]

It's Karneval.

Carnival isn't really about being 100% srs

I agree. Even if a wagon has no clear satirical nature or (targeted) criticism of politics, that doesn't mean that it's completely serious. I mean, it's the fifth season.
The only one that is clearly problematic to me is the one from Sachsen. The rest seems sufficient to fall into Narrenfreiheit.

 

[nib95]

Disgusting.

 

[AlphaDump]

It's Karneval.



I agree. Even if a wagon has no clear satirical nature or (targeted) criticism of politics, that doesn't mean that it's completely serious.
The only one that is clearly problematic to me is the one from Sachsen.

Does Karneval specifically involve only certain groups, or is it a celebration for all things german?

How are these floats viewed in germany by the general population?

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Germany in particular has some weird fascination with misappropriating Native Americans. Stems from Karl May's novels characterizing them as the noble savages trope, even though he never met any Native Americans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_German_popular_culture

 

[Chezzymann]

Say what you want about USA but you don't see this kinda shit here.

I think you picked a bad time to say this considering Donald Trump has a chance at becoming president

 

[AlphaDump]

Germany in particular has some weird fascination with misappropriating Native Americans. Stems from Karl May's novels characterizing them as the noble savages trope, even though he never met any Native Americans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_German_popular_culture

from your wiki link:

There was a widespread cultural passion for Native Americans in Germany throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. "Indianthusiasm" contributed to the evolution of German national identity.[33] Imagery of Native Americans was appropriated in Nazi propaganda and used both against the US and to promote a "holistic understanding of Nature" among Germans, which gained widespread support from various segments of the political spectrum in Germany.[34][35] The connection of anti-American sentiment and sympathetic feelings toward the underprivileged but authentic Indians is common in Germany, and it was to be found in both Nazi propagandists such as Goebbels and left-leaning writers such as Nikolaus Lenau as well. During the German Autumn in 1977, an anonymous text by a leftist Göttinger Mescalero spoke positively of the murder of German attorney general Siegfried Buback and used the positive image of Stadtindianer (Urban Indians) within the radical left.

well that isn't good...

 

[GAMEPROFF]

I would not make a direct NS connection out of this. Its most likely Anti-American intended, espescially since the Besorgte Bürger are very anti-america and see in Putin their lord and savior, but I really doubt that this is really used with the third reich in mind.

 

[chadskin]

Does Karneval specifically involve only certain groups, or is it a celebration for all things german?

How are these floats viewed in germany by the general population?

If you're from the US, think Mardi Gras as a pretty apt comparison to the German carnival.

 

[Oersted]

In which cities did that happen?

 

[Lime]

I've seen the same general argument where people compare themselves to the Native Americans' loss of culture and identity because they don't want any "damn Muslims" ruining their socially constructed sense of a national culture.

 

[oti]

Does Karneval specifically involve only certain groups, or is it a celebration for all things german?

How are these floats viewed in germany by the general population?

Karneval doesn't celebrate anything in particular.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

In which cities did that happen?

The picture of the tank is from Reichertshausen in bavaria, the submarine is from saxony when I remember correctly.


Edit: Cant find the location for the submarine again. It flew by on Twitter yesterday, but I cant find the source again, sorry.

 

[AlphaDump]

Karneval doesn't celebrate anything in particular.

Just trying to see if it is like Mardi Gras or a political/ideology type of march. It gives me a good idea of the intent and overall acceptance of these stances.

 

[Steiner84]

op realizes that carnical parades are satire?
I dont know about this particular case (because i couldnt care any less about carnival), but typicaly on carnival parades, people mimic stupid ideas of the public or representers of the public to mock them.


Also, didnt knew it is "incredible offensive" to paint your face black..
how far we have come...

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Just trying to see if it is like Mardi Gras or a political/ideology type of march. It gives me a good idea of the intent and overall acceptance of these stances.

A lot of those vehicles are intended to make fun of politics, religions and society.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Also, didnt knew it is "incredible offensive" to paint your face black..

I believe there's a word to describe this phenomena.

 

[Palculator]

Also, didnt knew it is "incredible offensive" to paint your face black..
how far we have come...

It has very different connotations in the States.

 

[Steiner84]

It has very different connotations in the States.

never heard about this here. I mean, if i theoreticaly wanted to go as martin luther king, what am i supposed to do in america? Put a mask on? Not allowed to go as him as a white man?

 

[Violet_0]

This is a political message that I don't think I'd ever expect to see... Germans dressing as Native Americans protesting refugees in Europe...

dressing up as Native Americans is kind of a German thing (Winnetou) but not with redface .... er, usually

those pictures seem to have been taken from some small-town parades. Not that that excuses anything, but they probably wouldn't get away with this in a city like Cologne

 

[NoblesseOblige]

never heard about this here. I mean, if i theoreticaly wanted to go as martin luther king, what am i supposed to do in america? Put a mask on? Not allowed to go as him as a white man?

 

[Messofanego]

op realizes that carnical parades are satire?
I dont know about this particular case (because i couldnt care any less about carnival), but typicaly on carnival parades, people mimic stupid ideas of the public or representers of the public to mock them.


Also, didnt knew it is "incredible offensive" to paint your face black..
how far we have come...

This tells me Germans need to work on their satire. What's the punchline? Where is the joke? It's really punching down than up and not really exaggerated enough for satire. There's a thin line between satire and endorsement and it's on them if people have interpreted them as anti-refugee.

Read up on blackface if you don't get how painting your face black is offensive.

 

[Stallion Dan]

I think the reason why it died out ages ago in the UK is due to our ties with the US. I still find it crazy when seeing people in Italy think black face supports a footballer that has been racially abused in a past game.

It still happens in British comedy. League of Gentlemen, Bo Selecta, Little Britain to name a few this side of the millennium.

 

[Palculator]

never heard about this here. I mean, if i theoreticaly wanted to go as martin luther king, what am i supposed to do in america? Put a mask on? Not allowed to go as him as a white man?

Well, not like I'm an expert on its history in the U.S. either but I thought it was about blackface being used by white actors in films to reinforce negative stereotypes about black people which, given the history and the civil rights situation at the time, has obviously led to a much more negative association.

 

[darkinstinct]

But Europe can't be racist, so this is just another misunderstanding..

It's not about racism, though. They just don't want any more poor people in the country that they have to pay for. Which is a result of politics taking away social security from the lower classes and now giving it to foreigners. There's very few people that are actually racist in Europe, the ones that are most disliked by Germans for example are those from the Balcan region. Which are the same race.

In any case carnival always was about satire and very dark humour. It's best not to read too much in it or you'd think we kill our politicians and other weird stuff. That Nazi stuff however ... idiots, all of them.

 

[Beefy]

It has very different connotations in the States.

And UK.

 

[Messofanego]

never heard about this here. I mean, if i theoreticaly wanted to go as martin luther king, what am i supposed to do in america? Put a mask on? Not allowed to go as him as a white man?

Why? Why do you need to cosplay as MLK? You know cosplay isn't just about imitating skin colour. There's the whole costume angle that is more crucial than skin colour.

 

[Beefy]

It still happens in British comedy. League of Gentlemen, Bo Selecta, Little Britain to name a few this side of the millennium.

Are any of them still going? Yeah it still happens but it is dying. People see it more and more as a thing that shouldn't be done. If you look at UK press they all treat it as a bad thing.

 

[jonno394]

I understand the message they are trying to get across. White Europeans moved to the Americas and pretty much wiped out the indigenous peoples (Native Americans) via force and outbreeding. In Europe, millions of Africans and middle east descent people are moving in to the continent, and the belief is that over time, the indigenous people of Europe will in turn be wiped out by interbreeding/being outbred.

It's a very real issue, but one i'll be long dead before it ever occurs.

 

[Steiner84]

Why? Why do you need to cosplay as MLK? You know cosplay isn't just about imitating skin colour. There's the whole costume angle that is more crucial than skin colour.

first im not cosplaying. Its carnival and not soime kind of comic expo.
and secondly, as far as i know, MLK was a black man. So i need to make my skin look like a black man. That is the point of dressing up as someone else, to look like the original.

 

[darkinstinct]

Does Karneval specifically involve only certain groups, or is it a celebration for all things german?

How are these floats viewed in germany by the general population?

It's a very regional thing, common only in the outer west and southwest of Germany. The rest despises Karneval/Fasching/Fasnet. The whole of Germany knows how to understand the floats, which is basically open criticism of politics and how they handle situations.

 

[Black-Wind]

I .. just wow.

Strange way to start a Monday.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

first im not cosplaying. Its carnival and not soime kind of comic expo.
and secondly, as far as i know, MLK was a black man. So i need to make my skin look like a black man. That is the point of dressing up as someone else, to look like the original.

You seriously think you gonna look like King by putting on some black facepaint?

 

[Violet_0]

first im not cosplaying. Its carnival and not soime kind of comic expo.
and secondly, as far as i know, MLK was a black man. So i need to make my skin look like a black man. That is the point of dressing up as someone else, to look like the original.

arguing for blackface is usually banable (and rightly so) and it's also derailing the thread, you might want to consider dropping this topic

 

[Pizza con salsiccia]

Red face/black face does not have the same racist historical connotations in Europe. I only learned about that recently, to be honest.

.

Yes but this is Neogaf, SO YOU HAVE TO BE OFFENDED YOU UNDERSTAND!

Be offended. Now. FASTER!

 

[Buzzman]

I understand the message they are trying to get across. White Europeans moved to the Americas and pretty much wiped out the indigenous peoples (Native Americans) via force and outbreeding. In Europe, millions of Africans and middle east descent people are moving in to the continent, and the belief is that over time, the indigenous people of Europe will in turn be wiped out by interbreeding/being outbred.

It's a very real issue, but one i'll be long dead before it ever occurs.

Rofl.
Native Americans weren't wiped out by "outbreeding". They were enslaved and exterminated.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Yes but this is Neogaf, SO YOU HAVE TO BE OFFENDED YOU UNDERSTAND!

Be offended. Now. FASTER!

I think you're offended enough for the rest of us.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

first im not cosplaying. Its carnival and not soime kind of comic expo.
and secondly, as far as i know, MLK was a black man. So i need to make my skin look like a black man. That is the point of dressing up as someone else, to look like the original.

Yeah, pro-tip: that's a bad idea. No need to paint your skin black. You're not going to look like a black person.

If you really want to go as MLK, wear a suit and tie and hold some other prop that has to do with civil rights or whatever. Or when people ask who you're supposed to be, say MLK. Then they'll be like oh ok.

 

[Beefy]

This thread is heading towards a ban fest so I'm out.

 

[Steiner84]

You seriously think you gonna look like King by putting on some black facepaint?

not sure if you troll me at this point.

If not: MLK was the first best example that came to mind. Propably not as good example because he hasnt any salient external features. James Brown would be a better one with his distinct haircut and suits hes waering. that said, skin color is just one aspect of dressing up but nonetheless its part of it. and if i would go as james brown, yes, i think i look like james brown by putting some black paint on my face, in addition to costume and wig. For sure more then without paint.


edit: Ok i realize this is a delicate topic for the predominant US-centric demographic of Neogaf, so i just drop it now. Still, i didnt knew blackfacing is a thing and is such a big controversial topic. I certainly havent heard of it and didnt knew teh concept of it beeing rude for whatever reason.

 

[Alx]

Just trying to see if it is like Mardi Gras or a political/ideology type of march. It gives me a good idea of the intent and overall acceptance of these stances.

Yeah Karnival comes from the old tradition of "day of the fools", where (almost) everything is permitted, hierarchy is reversed, and people can talk and dress how they want. Of course some may abuse of it, but it's traditionally a cultural way of letting off some steam.

 

[jonno394]

Rofl.
Native Americans weren't wiped out by "outbreeding". They were enslaved and exterminated.

ROFL.....

Anyway, Cultural Genocide is what they're trying to get across, with events such as

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet

being examples of it happening