Members of german carnival parade use redface to spew refugee hate

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ElTorro said:
I was talking about continental Germany over the last decades. Compared to other European countries, the black population in Germany was small, and even though it has grown a little bit in the recent past, it still remains small to this day compared to other ethnic minorities.
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As I pointed out the interaction is small of because of the German concept of racial purity. Mixed children were sterilized, and became wards of the state during that period.


Interracial couples in the colonies were subjected to strong pressure in a campaign against miscegenation, which included invalidation of marriages, declaring the mixed-race children illegitimate, and stripping them of German citizenship.[7] During extermination of the Nama people in 1907 by Germany, the German director for colonial affairs, Bernhard Dernburg, stated that "some native tribes, just like some animals, must be destroyed".
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From the link you posted. They mixed very little precisely because the German people at large saw blacks as inferior and those who did were punished.
 
Buzzman said:
As a dirty half-breed I laugh at you. I was born in Sweden and have lived here my entire life. Are you gonna tell me I'm not Swedish now? I don't espouse "European culture" because my skin-tone isn't the same as yours?
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Erm who called you a dirty half breed, not me.
 
SirJackDaniels said:
Slight OT but tying in to the blackface debate.

Netherlands being classy as usual during Carnaval:

12687832_1335840269766698_6489605463677941291_n.jpg


They are dressed up as Yaya and Kolo Toure.

Whats even more disgusting this photo won a prize as best football related carnaval picture for a big dutch football website.
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Why would you do this? IF you want to honor someone wear their jersey. So fucking unnecessary
 
Fritz said:
I am German too and I always felt blackface is insensitive. It mocks a biological preset that should be irrelevant.
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People have been dressing up as stereotypical depictions of all kinds of things for carneval since basically forever.

Dressing up as an indian, cow boy, sexy nurse or Jim Knopf isn't meant as mockery or offensive in any way.
There is this cultural gap between the US and Europe and you just can't use the same standards everywhere.
Whats offensive in the US might not be offensive in Europe and vice versa.

I don't get why people make this about redface and blackface now. Thats not the issue. The issue is that they're spreading anti refugee narrative. Thats actually racist.
But people seem to ignore the real racism in these things to complain about what they think is racist because they see it in the light of their own cultural context.
 
jonno394 said:
Isn't it more xenophobic Than racist?
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what's the difference, functionally?

1.21Gigawatts said:
People have been dressing up as stereotypical depictions of all kinds of things for carneval since basically forever.

Dressing up as an indian, cow boy, sexy nurse or Jim Knopf isn't meant as mockery or offensive in any way.
There is this cultural gap between the US and Europe and you just can't use the same standards everywhere.
Whats offensive in the US might not be offensive in Europe and vice versa.

I don't get why people make this about redface and blackface now. Thats not the issue. The issue is that they're spreading anti refugee narrative. Thats actually racist.
But people seem to ignore the real racism in these things to complain about what they think is racist because they see it in the light of their own cultural context.
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You don't think blackface or redface is racist?
 
This thread is fun. Should be nice to see Bish cull the herd once more.

I especially can't wait to see people defend Zwarte Piet with their warped and backwards logic, and we do the entire "Blackface doesn't exist in Europe / Doesn't have the same connotations as US" rodeo again.
 
ElTorro said:
I was talking about continental Germany over the last decades. Compared to other European countries, the black population in Germany was small, and even though it has grown a little bit in the recent past, it still remains small to this day compared to other ethnic minorities.
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The Native American population in the US is similarly small. Still though part of the population recognizes the issues of appropriation when it comes to mascots, costumes, etc. We still have a long way to go, but let's not pretend these controversies don't exist just because those being misrepresented are of such a small representation.
 
1.21Gigawatts said:
People have been dressing up as stereotypical depictions of all kinds of things for carneval since basically forever.

Dressing up as an indian, cow boy, sexy nurse or Jim Knopf isn't meant as mockery or offensive in any way.
There is this cultural gap between the US and Europe and you just can't use the same standards everywhere.
Whats offensive in the US might not be offensive in Europe and vice versa.

I don't get why people make this about redface and blackface now. Thats not the issue. The issue is that they're spreading anti refugee narrative. Thats actually racist.
But people seem to ignore the real racism in these things to complain about what they think is racist because they see it in the light of their own cultural context.
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They are using racism to spread racism, I just don't get how people don't see it as a whole thing
 
Buzzman said:
No, you just claimed that I'm part of the reason why Europe is going to be "wiped out".
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No i never said Europe is going to be wiped out, European natives may be and it's culture. You're culturally European though. The issue is when people don't want to live like a cultural European.
 
Dubbedinenglish said:
As I pointed out the interaction is small of because of the German concept of racial purity.
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I was not meaning to imply that Germany has no black history or that demographics make certain things right or wrong. I just wanted to give an explanation why Germans are less aware of things like blackface than Americans, because some posters expressed astonishment, that's all. It's a rather trivial statement that the demographics of a country amplify certain cultural issues, making more people aware of them than about issues that are naturally not amplified to the same extend.
 
Pizza con salsiccia said:
Looks like someone's trying to fit in!

Good, man, good. I give you ten neogaf point.
Get enough point, and you'll save 5% on your Neogaf Gold subscription.
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what's wrong with conforming if you learn that it's better not to say racist bullshit along the way? everyone wins...unless of course you're just passionate about defending racism.
 
Can't believe there are people actually defending blackface. So much bullshit moral relativism in this thread.

Almost seems like race relations are better in the United States than in Europe.
 
DerangedHermit said:
Yes, the word exists. That is true. What do you think xenophobes are though?
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Racism is the hatred of a race or culture, xenophibia is the fear of those people or their culture, and in this instance, the fear of the impact it could have on Europe and it's culture.

My fear is that one day europe is a Muslim group of counties living under Muslim law. I don't hate Muslims, doesn't mean I can't be concerned by that possibility.
 
SG-17 said:
Can't believe there are people actually defending blackface. So much bullshit moral relativism in this thread.

Almost seems like race relations are better in the United States than in Europe.
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Both are fairly bad, but what's worse is the Europeans who I'm fairly certain go into black race relations threads involving the US and laugh, conveniently forgetting about the skeletons in their own closet.
 
SG-17 said:
Can't believe there are people actually defending blackface. So much bullshit moral relativism in this thread.

Almost seems like race relations are better in the United States than in Europe.
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It isn't Europe as a whole. The UK while lagging behind is has the same opinion about black face etc.
 
Steiner84 said:
Still, i didnt knew blackfacing is a thing and is such a big controversial topic. I certainly havent heard of it and didnt knew teh concept of it beeing rude for whatever reason.
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Well it's not really obscure knowledge.
However...
Americans ironically love displaying their own cultural insensitivity by applying their own cultural sensitivity standards to other cultures while ignoring context.

We have a sort of christian tradition here where children walk around houses after christmas to sing and such, and some of them are dressed up as the three wise men, one of which is black, and the others may be depicted with their exotic origins as well. Most of these kids have never even seen a black person outside the TV. And they collect donations which are often used as aid for non-western countries.

How we usually look at it: A lovely, innocent tradition that sends a message of inclusion regardless of where you're from or what you look like. Also, kids get to dress up.

How Americans would look at it if they saw pictures: Racist blackface, cultural insensitivity, SHUT IT DOWN!
 
ElTorro said:
I was not meaning to imply that Germany has no black history or that demographics make certain things right or wrong. I just wanted to give an explanation why Germans are less aware of things like blackface than Americans, because some posters expressed astonishment, that's all. It's a rather trivial statement that the demographics of a country amplify certain cultural issues, making more people aware of them than about issues that are naturally not amplified to the same extend.
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I understand that point but my reason is the astonishment (really goes both ways with Euro-GAF being surprised) comes from the practices never being challenged on a societal level. The idea of black features (and other minorities) as caricatures being OK comes from the colonial period of perceived supremacy over other races. The average German back in colonial days probably never met an African but knew they were inferior and thus encouraged caricatures and racist imagery as normal. It's not that different from the US, the main difference is we have had that societal challenge to these practices, where Europe at large hasn't had that until recently.

It's not ignorance from being racist, it's that they haven't been challenged on it.
 
jonno394 said:
Racism is the hatred of a race or culture, xenophibia is the fear of those people or their culture, and in this instance, the fear of the impact it could have on Europe and it's culture.

My fear is that one day europe is a Muslim group of counties living under Muslim law. I don't hate Muslims, doesn't mean I can't be concerned by that possibility.
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If you don't think anything is wrong with muslims why would you fear them? Like, that doesn't even add up.
 
Zaru said:
Well it's not really obscure knowledge.
However...
Americans ironically love displaying their own cultural insensitivity by applying their own cultural sensitivity standards to other cultures while ignoring context.

We have a sort of christian tradition here where children walk around houses after christmas to sing and such, and some of them are dressed up as the three wise men, one of which is black, and the others may be depicted with their exotic origins as well. Most of these kids have never even seen a black person outside the TV. And they collect donations which are often used as aid for non-western countries.

How we usually look at it: A lovely, innocent tradition that sends a message of inclusion regardless of where you're from or what you look like. Also, kids get to dress up.

How Americans would look at it if they saw pictures: Racist blackface, cultural insensitivity, SHUT IT DOWN!
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This is an excellent post. Well said.
 
jonno394 said:
Racism is the hatred of a race or culture, xenophibia is the fear of those people or their culture, and in this instance, the fear of the impact it could have on Europe and it's culture.

My fear is that one day europe is a Muslim group of counties living under Muslim law. I don't hate Muslims, doesn't mean I can't be concerned by that possibility.
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I think you mean, "fear and/or hatred of those people and their culture". Although i can see why you would ommit what i bolded. Not very convenient.

EDIT: in the end, it doesn't fucking matter. Both are prejudice toward strangers(and usually strangers with a different skin colour than ours) based on our own prejudiced ideas about them.
 
Coffee Dog said:
what's the difference, functionally?
You don't think blackface or redface is racist?
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Depends on the context.
If a kid dresses up as his favorite cartoon character? No.
If someone does it to mock certain groups of people? Yes.



Slayven said:
They are using racism to spread racism, I just don't get how people don't see it as a whole thing
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Thing is that these people don't give a fuck about indians. They aren't racist towards indians, they are completely indifferent towards them. They probably don't even know anything about indians except the usuall stereotypes (living in tents, smoking peace pipes, having funny names like "Brave Fox".)

But they hate refugees.

So no, I don't think actual racism and a stupid stereotypical depicion of a group should be seen as a whole.
Because one is actual racism with malicious intent and the other is just simple stupidity without malicious intent.
 
DerangedHermit said:
I think you mean, "fear and/or hatred of those people and their culture". Although i can see why you would ommit what i bolded. Not very convenient.
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Doesn't change anything. The and/or just goes to show that not all people who exhibit xenophobia are racist. I could be xenophobic to eastern Europeans as a western European. That's not racist.
 
Zaru said:
Well it's not really obscure knowledge.
However...
Americans ironically love displaying their own cultural insensitivity by applying their own cultural sensitivity standards to other cultures while ignoring context.

We have a sort of christian tradition here where children walk around houses after christmas to sing and such, and some of them are dressed up as the three wise men, one of which is black, and the others may be depicted with their exotic origins as well. Most of these kids have never even seen a black person outside the TV. And they collect donations which are often used as aid for non-western countries.

How we usually look at it: A lovely, innocent tradition that sends a message of inclusion regardless of where you're from or what you look like. Also, kids get to dress up.

How Americans would look at it if they saw pictures: Racist blackface, cultural insensitivity, SHUT IT DOWN!
Click to expand...

So would one of the children be black? Or one of the children be white with black face?
 
Dubbedinenglish said:
I understand that point but my reason is the astonishment (really goes both ways with Euro-GAF being surprised) comes from the practices never being challenged on a societal level. The idea of black features (and other minorities) as caricatures being OK comes from the colonial period of perceived supremacy over other races. The average German back in colonial days probably never met an African but knew they were inferior and thus encouraged caricatures and racist imagery as normal. It's not that different from the US, the main difference is we have had that societal challenge to these practices, where Europe at large hasn't had that until recently.

It's not ignorance from being racist, it's that they haven't been challenged on it.
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Yep. In Germany it's so recent that "Blackfacing" became the 2014 anglicism of the year.
You can call it "relativization of racism" and act superior or whatever, but until recently this was just not seen that way, but it's definitely changing.

Daingurse said:
Racism has never required malicious intent, so that point is irrelevant. Ignorance has, and will never be, an excuse for perpetuating racism.
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So there's no difference between racism with intent and without it? Please.
 
1.21Gigawatts said:
So no, I don't think actual racism and a stupid stereotypical depicion of a group should be seen as a whole.
Because one is actual racism with malicious intent and the other is just simple stupidity without malicious intent.
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Racism has never required malicious intent, so that point is irrelevant. Ignorance has, and will never be, an excuse for perpetuating racism.
 
1.21Gigawatts said:
.
If someone does it to mock certain groups of people? Yes.


Thing is that these people don't give a fuck about indians. They aren't racist towards indians, they are completely indifferent towards them. They probably don't even know anything about indians except the usuall stereotypes (living in tents, smoking peace pipes, having funny names like "Brave Fox".)

But they hate refugees.

So no, I don't think actual racism and a stupid stereotypical depicion of a group should be seen as a whole.
Because one is actual racism with malicious intent and the other is just simple stupidity without malicious intent.
Click to expand...

And their depiction of a backwards stereotype implies they are not civilized or seen as "savages." The direct intention is to say "we don't want to wind up as these backward people." How is that not racist?
 
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