Dreams-Visions
Member
yea i can't even imagine the stress she's under.
this! someone got some 'splainin to do.
VALVE fires DOTA tourney host, Gabe Newell calls the host "an ass" publicly on Reddit
- Thread starter Abilidebob
- Start date
yea i can't even imagine the stress she's under.
this! someone got some 'splainin to do.
Askherserenity
Member
I feel for James because he obviously wants to make the cast interesting and entertaining....in the end just helping Valve sell their fucking game.
Valve just wants...whatever the Shanghai Major is now.
Valve just wants...whatever the Shanghai Major is now.
Why do you say that? It seems FAAAAR more plausible that, as James' document states, Gabe and James have only barely met ever.
Askherserenity
Member
These guys must go through so much shit. I never even gave it much thought but now I feel for them.
Gäbe is taking the L on this one, they knew who they were working with and went super defensive when they realized he screwed up. Also calling him an ass is unnecessary, you are supposed to be above that shit Gabe.
chaobreaker
Member
I don't want to call James a liar but this is a pretty damning accusation to slip in this whole dissertation. You'd think we would have heard this from other Dota 2 personalities long ago.
I think it's less that Gaben's detached from the community and more that he failed to properly communicate with his employees what he expected from James.
AnathemicOne
Banned
Just read the statement and god damn.
I can't really blame James here, if IceFrog (the goddamn dude who made DotA into what it is now) gave the okay for James to be himself and only for James to get fired for it, really speaks of how far Gaben is detached from the Dota community, really sad to see. On top of that, all these TI's and Valve isn't even paying their damn casters/hosts, the fuck?
Askherserenity
Member
Did you read the doc? He's not going to lie about this. His friend Bruno (the one who he had to fight for to get paid in TI) works at Valve.
Honestly, the people who do things like this for DOTA2 and the like are part of a grass roots cult. I don't mean that in a bad way, but they want to do right by the game and the tournament's they love so much and don't want to call out Valve and make it look bad AND don't want to be blacklisted by Valve. It's very possible that's really the case.
Maybe Gabe should have communicated that. From what I've seen, he can turn that off, but a Valve employee told him to be himself.
Just because they might have never met doesn't mean that things might not have happened that we don't know about but Gaben is aware. All I am saying is that the way he was fired and the publicly called an ass probably means that something big happened.
You know, now that I think about it, I wonder if Alireza would have been upset that "Some Nice Prep Worked" turned out to just be a white board and a few skit ideas. James didn't even study up on the current state of the game, and came in with the idea that it would be better if he was ignorant and had the other panelist explain things to him.
Its also a odd cognitive dissonance to see him think about the new viewer experience in one breath, and then decided its ok to make a ton of commentary that would generally be considered offensive.
Its also a odd cognitive dissonance to see him think about the new viewer experience in one breath, and then decided its ok to make a ton of commentary that would generally be considered offensive.
What bargaining chips do the DOTA 2 personalities have? There's no union for them.
I don't think it's wise for co-founders to fire people for personal reasons and use profanity while doing so. It's better for someone to say, "we're parting ways with Harding, and are bringing on [so-and-so] (with however many years of broadcast experience), or (a former esports champion)."
It doesn't make me feel good that Gabe went "this guy's an ass!" And then fires him in the middle of a tourney with no replacement.
I get the production was bad, and that they fired the production company, how about leading with that? Give a professional reason.
And the other thing about the "he's an ass" comment, I can get it if it's for some behind the scene stuff, in that case say "fired with cause," but if it's for his on-air persona, then Gabe is just admitting that they don't look at who they're hiring. You want Jerry Seinfeld, don't hire Jimmy Carr.
Gabe doesn't look like a big dog, he looks like someone who let his big tournament run away from him and pulled the plug in a panic.
edit: read the doc:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B061Rs4gw4zkCec35Q5v2r576e_Jd6pJfrT_5_GZ74I/preview?pref=2&pli=1
From what I read, Ali is some kind of Valve guy, so it looks like Harding blew up at him and that's the "he's an ass" stuff.
chaobreaker
Member
Someone on Reddit clarified that Valve quickly changed that signature policy in the end. Probably is why no one really complained about it.
Valve doesn't really have the kind of stranglehold other companies have with their esports.
Valve doesn't really have the kind of stranglehold other companies have with their esports.
No it doesn't. It was clear that Gabe was angry at everything to do with the production and also just didn't like his style. Seems like he jumped on the internet before cooling off like so many people do.
Askherserenity
Member
That Icefrog conversation. Crazy. Just huge miscommunication on Valve's part.
I doubt it. They did end up getting paid by the end of TI2 (thanks to James apparently) and they were still getting paid in TI4 with the signatures albeit in a shitty way. Also you don't want to piss off Valve who pretty much run the whole game and can make or break a careers if you dedicate everything to presenting Dota 2.
It says they changed it right in the document...Because they werent' going to stand for that. Whether you believe James that he's the one that told them it was bullshit or not is kind of irrelevant, Valve were the ones trying to push the people making their event watchable to get that shitty deal in the first place.
Hey, you gotta make yourself look better in any way.
show me your skeleton
Member
gabe uses the word ass.
ass has three letters.
half life 3 confirmed.
ass has three letters.
half life 3 confirmed.
crazyrabbits
Banned
Damn, that document is incendiary. I can definitely see where James was coming from.
Yeah, and half the document talks about past tournaments is also a great way to deflect blame for how you acted at the current tournament. While what he says definitely sounds bad, it not really relevant at all to the stuff at Shanghai Major IMO, outside of trying to frame that Ali guy as in the wrong (To once again deflect from him self)
Crash Station
Member
Gonna be honest, I wasn't bothered by any of that. Maybe I'm just too used to the Sleepycabin guys, but I think there's a lot of value in crude humor like this, though the guy doesn't really have the delivery or charisma to make it legit funny.
crazyrabbits
Banned
It doesn't seem like that, though. He admits upfront that he is an asshole, but that he went into the event with the express understanding that Icefrog/Valve knew what his humor was and had no reason to expect otherwise (save for a brief comment before the firing that he should lay off the porn jokes). He even goes out of his way to absolve Valve of any blame and says that he wanted to handle it privately, but Gabe put out a public statement.
It makes sense. I was at TI4 and got to talk to a couple of people. They were pushing the signature stuff hard. On another note, the workshop artists weren't happy with the change in set release system either. Sets went from being individually priced to being bundled in $2.50 chests.
This is a very well thought out and well written statement. It's long but he puts his own side of the story out there and shows the emotion he has felt. He seems like he has pride in the work that he does and I have to say the people that take pride in their work tend to be some of the best. Almost every job has stress and people will always vent, blow up, etc; after it builds. You have to be able to let shit roll off of your shoulders. Valve may not like his hosting but you can tell he has his head in the right place when talking about the job that is supposed to be done to entertain the people. He knows what hosts require and how to make a good panel and regardless of my previous reply I would say he'd make a pretty fantastic producer. He understands workload, time constraints, host placement, supplemental videos and overlays needed for presentation and when people just flat out don't mesh well on a panel.
A lot of his attitude seems to be passion, not necessarily about DOTA 2 but about the job he is doing. Doesn't mean it's the right way to go about it. However, surely there is someone at the company that can handle different types of talent and the way they work to put forth the best product available. (if the money is right Valve....a lot of problems could be solved)
I've watched every single TI and have played DOTA for years even before LoL was a concept. The TI's have steadily became worse after TI 3. You could tell that the showmanship was really bad, and has been especially at the awards ceremony at the very end. The year IG won the tournament I felt awful for them because they were playing against a massive crowd favorite and when Gabe presented them as champions there was hardly any applause or emotion from the crowd b/c their favorite lost. The presenter should set it up so that whomever wins the tournament has almost everyone in that stadium showing the respect that the winning team deserves for making it through the gauntlet regardless if you are a fan of theirs or not. There is definitely massive room for improvement in many areas of the productions of all of their sponsored events.
spootime
Member
Of course its relevant, Gabe specifically mentioned they had issues with him at previous tournaments.
James mentioned that in the document himself.
Not overtly, but everyone in the community, from workshop artists, to casters, to players, to observers, do work in hopes of getting that sweet TI invite. All roads lead to TI and thus people sometimes swallow some shit in order to be in Valve's good graces.
MurkyZebra2417
Member
I think James was the only good host that Dota2 had, which says much about the current state of Dota hosting/casting. Because he is definetly an ass. Just because you are told to "be yourself" doesn't mean you can say whatever you want. What was James even thinking with these jokes? Valve wants to market Dota2 as a sports, for people 12years+ and James of all people should know this. Also you can't shit on players that much. He had "EternalEnvy" on the "negative" side of Team Secret, while a fun joke for the community it puts the players under pressure, especially people like Envy who tend to tilt.
But Valve also handled this very bad and unprofessional.
Both sides acted stupid and this whole Major is a huge mess.
What Valve should do moving forward if they want to market Dota2 big as a sport:
Hire a good host, put him under contract, pay him much and let him study Dota 8 hours a day until the next Major to get basic knowledge about the game. This is now your Host for all Events going forward. INVEST MONEY.
Fire half of the casters and only keep the good ones. INVEST IN THEM. Teach them casting on a professional level. Hire new Casters so they are ready for TI6.
So, bottom line: INVEST MONEY into your professional Dota Valve. 1 Million+ doesn't hurt you and will do wonders for the professionalism of future Dota Events. You can't keep hiring community people and somehow think they will host/cast on a pofessional/TV level.
edit: Also people taking James statement as the absolute truth now is kinda strange... there are definetly two sides to this story.
But Valve also handled this very bad and unprofessional.
Both sides acted stupid and this whole Major is a huge mess.
What Valve should do moving forward if they want to market Dota2 big as a sport:
Hire a good host, put him under contract, pay him much and let him study Dota 8 hours a day until the next Major to get basic knowledge about the game. This is now your Host for all Events going forward. INVEST MONEY.
Fire half of the casters and only keep the good ones. INVEST IN THEM. Teach them casting on a professional level. Hire new Casters so they are ready for TI6.
So, bottom line: INVEST MONEY into your professional Dota Valve. 1 Million+ doesn't hurt you and will do wonders for the professionalism of future Dota Events. You can't keep hiring community people and somehow think they will host/cast on a pofessional/TV level.
edit: Also people taking James statement as the absolute truth now is kinda strange... there are definetly two sides to this story.
Ooof, he's trying so hard too. It doesn't even feel honest, as if he's just being himself. Just feels like manufactured edgy.
I like James as much as the next guy, but it's like you haven't even heard of Redeye. Then there's Chobra, but Redeye is S tier.
Askherserenity
Member
But...what would he be lying about? Is he somehow going out of his way to make himself come out on top in all this? Really didn't read like that was the case.
Why would he put up a 16 page document online if it was just lies? Any one of his coworkers would be able to discredit it in a second. There would be no point.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
Defamation lawsuit incoming.
Well yeah. He's unfortunately giving the audience what they want though.
Going into this I was kind of unconcerned about 2GD being fired because I'd never really like his hosting style. I mean, if GabeN calls you an ass there must be a reason, right?
Boy, Valve done fucked up here. Credit to James for putting out a statement where he could have easily thrown them under the bus. Although it was rambling and full of spelling and grammatical errors it definitely made the situation a whole lot more easy to comprehend.
Unfortunately for him, he didn't change his style and the internet loves Gabe Newell so he's probably fucked as far as hosting again in Dota is concerned. Hope he's successful in other ventures.
Boy, Valve done fucked up here. Credit to James for putting out a statement where he could have easily thrown them under the bus. Although it was rambling and full of spelling and grammatical errors it definitely made the situation a whole lot more easy to comprehend.
Unfortunately for him, he didn't change his style and the internet loves Gabe Newell so he's probably fucked as far as hosting again in Dota is concerned. Hope he's successful in other ventures.
MurkyZebra2417
Member
If know them and they had many awkward forced joke moments on every panel they hosted. 2GD came across way more naturally.
Just saying it is his side of the story with his personal view of things (of course). So I wouldn't take everything as 100% fact.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
You mean libel.
ashecitism
Member
Valve isn't as hands-on with their CS scene as they are with Dota. So the organizations are who invite the people, not them.
But he's at Valve now.
@MurkyZebra2417
Well I agree with your assessment of Redeye vs. James but the people in this thread who are turning their nose up at James might find Redeye more palatable, because of his more professional tone and gentlemanly bantz. I still think saying James was the only good one is overkill. Redeye, at his worst, is still very good imo
Well I agree with your assessment of Redeye vs. James but the people in this thread who are turning their nose up at James might find Redeye more palatable, because of his more professional tone and gentlemanly bantz. I still think saying James was the only good one is overkill. Redeye, at his worst, is still very good imo
Libel is a subset of defamation, I'm not wrong.
Its only libel if its not true.