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[Tabris]

What is this bullshit? It's entirely possible to be a Hillary supporter and not be a poor-hating monster. You are basically making OP's point with this tripe.

No it's really not.

By supporting Hillary, you are supporting establishment politics in America. The same politics that have led to the decline of your society over the last 30 years. Your entire governing body has been bought out by groups like the Koch brothers, the Wallstreet banks, Walmart, etc which has led to an insane amount of deregulation and tax policy that has led to a drastic income disparity and a lowering of both median income but more importantly the quality of life of people at or below the median income levels.

And you can blame gerrymandering, you can blame republican party being a greater evil, you can blame whatever you want - but the fault is with the voter. You've been beaten down into the system to believe in lesser of two evil voting and "these things like universal healthcare, education, regulation of banks, etc are just too darn hard".

The 40% of your country has beaten the 60% of your country into defeatist attitude by the buying power of the 1%.

 

[ColdPizza]

In that there will be a regression movement? Kinda.

Let's put it this way: that's a scenario I'm more than happy to keep safely tucked away in the realm of future speculative fiction authors to suss out.

I think it's interesting you bring up fiction writers, because as time goes on I think a combination of the worst Republican and worst Democratic proposed policies will net us a 1984 scenario.

 

[atr0cious]

Then this is a problem amongst Democratic voters. If they overwhelmingly voted in Obama but then neglected senate and congress then some voter education is in order. Wouldn't you agree?

Much of the south(minorities) are the cogs of this country, doing mostly vocational jobs, or branching out for the hospitatlity industry and retail. Most of that group literally can't afford to miss a day to vote, especially when their districts are most likely gerrymandered into the shape of a downs laden snowflake. Why do you think voting happens on a Tuesday? The republicans base is a bunch of old racist welfare takers who can afford to go to the voting booth whenever, it helps being white when it comes to government assitance after all.

 

[RumblingRosco]

Yo, where mah Hilldawgs at?

Damn, that sounds good to say.

I like Hilldawgs, because I imaging a pack of wild dogs roaming through hills somewhere..or something.

That's the best part of Hilldawg winning, we've already got a great nickname ready. Obama never got a great nickname. Hell, the only nickname I can think of is Obummer.

 

[Mushroomer25]

At least Trump is entertaining. Hillary is the most boring person on the planet.

And you know what? That's a good thing. Politics should not be entertaining - they should be subtle, operating behind the scenes, and making decisions that best represent the will of the people - while taking into account the knowledge of experts.

It shouldn't be this high-stakes reality TV insanity.

 

[Osahi]

I fear that when Sanders get the nom, the chance on a republican president is bigger then when Hillary would win.

Not an American, but won't Bernies socialist views and atheism be a big handicap? Also, watching him speech, it is not very riveting and i fear that might be a big handicap too in the way I perceive American politics.

I lean more to his ideas though, so he would be my preferred president

 

[Tabris]

That's cool and all but this is America not Canada, we have different interests.

Different interests? You mean caring about your fellow human beings and wanting to ensure society looks after those less fortunate.

Those are "interests" of most modern nations on this planet. These are expected virtues of 3rd industrial age nations. Hell, even China and India are moving to Universal Healthcare by 2020. China is going to beat out the US to it.

Your culture is ugly honestly with how self-focused it is, but I know most people don't realize they are being that and have good in their hearts. I always like this quote to describe it - “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”. The American Dream is no longer a strength of your country, but a curse.

 

[legacyzero]

As a Bernie supporter, I dont understand all the unreasonable hate Hillary gets either. At the same time, I also dont understand the support she gets either. Especially after her flip-flopping on BIG issues. It's an issue of integrity to me. Take the email and Benghazi thing off the table, and you still have her stances from the past two decades strangely and conveniently evolving to suit the needs of the time and the discussion. I'm ok if somebody evolves a bit on an issue. That's a great behavior. But the amount that she's done it is truly troubling to me.

Of course, she'll have my vote versus the yahoos on the GOP side. But I really feel like i would be voting for her simply as a lesser-of-two-evils choice to hopefully avoid Trump. It's pretty clear he's getting the nomination, unless somebody lifts the rug to find something COMSMICALLY dirty on him.

 

[ColdPizza]

Much of the south(minorities) are the cogs of this country, doing mostly vocational jobs, or branching out for the hospitatlity industry and retail. Most of that group literally can't afford to miss a day to vote, especially when their districts are most likely gerrymandered into the shape of a downs laden snowflake. Why do you think voting happens on a Tuesday?

There are laws that employers must adhere by to let people vote without repercussion. At least in NY.

 

[Trouble]

No it's really not.

By supporting Hillary, you are supporting establishment politics in America. The same politics that have led to the decline of your society over the last 30 years. Your entire governing body has been bought out by groups like the Koch brothers, the Wallstreet banks, Walmart, etc which has led to an insane amount of deregulation and tax policy that has led to a drastic income disparity and a lowering of both median income but more importantly the quality of life of people at or below the median income levels.

And you can blame gerrymandering, you can blame republican party being a greater evil, you can blame whatever you want - but the fault is with the voter. You've been beaten down into the system to believe in lesser of two evil voting and "these things like universal healthcare, education, regulation of banks, etc are just too darn hard".

The 40% of your country has beaten the 60% of your country into defeatist attitude by the buying power of the 1%.

You are letting perfect be the enemy of good. Some people will take a high chance of incremental improvement over an extremely low chance of moderate improvement. It's a pragmatic choice and those who are baffled at Bernie losing need to understand this.

 

[Sheroking]

Just do what I'm doing this election and not giving a fuck or voting. Both sets of candidates are ass.

Detestable.

Who is your ideal candidate and what are his/her positions?

 

[MHWilliams]

I'm a Bernie fan, myself. But the amount of die-hard Bernie fans that have an amazing amount of hatred for Hillary is astounding. They go so far as to say that she's just as bad as Trump. If Bernie doesn't win the primaries, they plan on writing in his name in the general election or simply not voting at all. That makes us much more likely to have a republican president. The hatred for her is what makes me scared that we'll have Cruz, Trump, or Rubio as president.

I may not love Hillary, but I do NOT want a republican president, and I feel that anyone who's liberal should feel the same way. Why all the Hillary hate all of the sudden? I see so much anti-Hillary propaganda from liberals all over social media. Even in conversations, they shit on her so much. I know she's not going to crack down on Wall Street, I know she's not anti-establishment like Bernie, I know she's not a progressive. But the fact of the matter is that we CANNOT have a republican in the White House.

I was worried about the same, but I choose to believe it's a strong vocal fringe of Sanders' supporters, just like there's a strong vocal fringe of Clinton supporters.

In the end, believing in Sanders' message and not voting or voting Republican is rather incompatible. The former is a big part of his message:

In America, we should be celebrating our democracy and doing everything possible to make it easier for people to participate in the political process. Election Day should be a national holiday so that everyone has the time and opportunity to vote. While this would not be a cure-all, it would indicate a national commitment to create a more vibrant democracy.

We should not be satisfied with a "democracy" in which more than 60 percent of our people don't vote and some 80 percent of young people and low-income Americans fail to vote. We can and must do better than that.

Above all, we need to remember the price that was paid for the right to vote. The Voting Rights Act was one of the great victories of the civil rights movement. Now, as then, change comes when the people demand it — in the voting booth, and on the streets in peaceful demonstrations. We must remind ourselves of what’s been achieved in the past, and resolve to do equally great things in the future.

And on the latter, Donald Trump:

“When we come together, and don’t let people like Donald Trump try to divide us, we can create an economy that works for all of us and not just the top 1 percent.”

I'm not sure how you can get "not vote" or "vote Trump" out of that. You are literally fighting against the views of the candidate you say you support. Now if Sanders changes, then we can talk, but that's not the case now.

 

[maxcriden]

I fear that when Sanders get the nom, the chance on a republican president is bigger then when Hillary would win.

Not an American, but won't Bernies socialist views and atheism be a big handicap? Also, watching him speech, it is not very riveting and i fear that might be a big handicap too in the way I perceive American politics.

I lean more to his ideas though, so he would be my preferred president

Ah, not an American. Yeah. You don't have to worry about this. Bernie is not getting the nom. I agree with you that if he had the nom it could give a Republican an easier path to victory, though.

 

[Killing_Joke]

Out of the bunch I'm pretty sure she'll win the popular vote with ease.

 

[btrboyev]

I'm at a work conference and a colleague out at dinner said if Hillary is president then it will be the end of the United States. What a bat shit thing to say..

 

[atr0cious]

There are laws that employers must adhere by to let people vote without repercussion. At least in NY.

At-will employment sure isn't a thing.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

Out of the bunch I'm pretty sure she'll win the popular vote with ease.

America re-elected Bush

 

[HylianTom]

The is the mentality I'm talking about. When people are literally having rights withheld because of whatever, but it doesn't affect some, so they don't give a shit.

It's the leftist version of "fuck you, I've got mine" - "fuck you, I won't be affected."

It's really easy to shrug-off a GOP win when it isn't your own ass who's on their chopping block.

--

If you care about Bernie's long-term vision, you vote for whomever the Democrats nominate. Bernie 1.0 might not win here in 2016, but Bernie 1.0's supporters are the future of the Democratic Party - their voices will get louder and louder as they get older, and they will take-up more of a share of the party's primary votes. At some point, they will dominate the process and elect a Bernie 2.0 candidate.

If the GOP wins 2016 and stacks the judiciary for 25+ years, Bernie 2.0 won't have many of his/her accomplisments withstand the judicial challenges that inevitably arise. His/her agenda would essentially be DOA.

They have NO answer to this point. It's been brought-up numerous times here. Watch - this point will be either blown-off or ignored. Or we'll have folks argue that the court doesn't matter. Or - I shit you not - we'll be informed that the court can be lobbied. They have no reply. Which tells me that, for this very loud minority of folks, this is more about the man than the actual policies he's advancing. Bernie understands and accepts this, which is why he'll line-up for November should he not be the nominee.

Winning the executive is one part of the recipe for his vision. But as soon as the ink dries on any laws that Bernie 2.0 or beyond signs, those laws will be challenged in court. If the "Bernie-or-Bust" folks have some new, magical workaround for this structural reality of our system, I would LOVE to hear it; they've had ample opportunity to offer it here in this forum, and their silence speaks volumes.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

You all responded to a Tabris post, suckers.

The problem with Hillary is she is completely uninspiring. She also has a rather poor track record in the Senate of voting with whatever she thinks people will approve of at the time. This is why she initially supported the invasion of Iraq and the TPP, and then when public opinion turned against them suddenly she opposed them. There's little evidence that she has any opinions of her own, she just says whatever she thinks will get her votes. In that regard she's astonishingly similar to Donald Trump except that Trump openly appeals to some really nasty elements of society and Hillary doesn't.

People who say Hillary is like Trump aren't talking specifically about their opinions or their positions. They're talking about how Hillary and Trump both say exactly what they think their supporters want to hear. They are hollow shells that you project your own beliefs and opinions into, nothing more.

 

[Rubenov]

I'm at a work conference and a colleague out at dinner said if Hillary is president then it will be the end of the United States. What a bat shit thing to say..

lol. Nothing compared to what has been said about Obama, before and after his election.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Oh, you!

I'm gonna make them Bernie bros squeal real good!

Ha! Never seen that episode..

How wwe should name the followers of Nana Ruth? Ruthians? Ruthers? Ruthie Bros.?

😢

That's the best part of Hilldawg winning, we've already got a great nickname ready. Obama never got a great nickname. Hell, the only nickname I can think of is Obummer.

I thought The Islamic Shock was a pretty dope name..

 

[Sobriquet]

I know she's not going to crack down on Wall Street,

Are you sure? I believe she'll try.

I know she's not a progressive.

Do you consider Obama progressive? Her voting record is to the left of him.

The problem with Hillary is she is completely uninspiring.

What did you think of her speech last night?

 

[JinjoUnchained]

Whatever arguments are being made against her are by no means effective. A lot of general criticism stems from the fact that she is untrustworthy but the problem with making a claim like that, for any candidate, is that you have to prove intent which is something no one can ever do.

Lastly, you have 3 repeating arguments used by the GOP to attack her: Benghazi, Emails, Dead cops.

That's it! Nothing against her policies. Beghanzi, emails and she'll talk about dead black people but not about dead cops.

It sounds to me she is freaking killing it.

But that only proves the point of Sanders supporters. The GOP can't attack her, because in many cases, she holds similar positions and a similar record to the GOP. They can't attack her on anything substantive without attacking their own platform.

Case in point, she's as bad if not worse as the neocons on foreign policy. Cruz can blow hot air about making the sand glow, but Hillary actually has a record of enacting regime change when she was Secretary of State. And "Hillary's war" in Libya helped ISIS get a foothold in the region and destabilize Northern Africa. Fuck, if Trump really wants to build a wall, have him build one in Tunisia on the Libyan border so they can live in peace without violent extremists sneaking in.

My point is, saying you're not going to vote for Hillary isn't merely being childish or spiteful, it's a protest against the military industrial complex. As far as I'm concerned, if you vote for a warmonger like Hillary/Cruz/Rubio bc they also represent your economic interests, then you have blood on your hands. Rather than knuckling under to the military industrial complex by voting "lesser of two evils", make a stand against it by going third party. For God's sake, it's 2016, it's the Information Age, if we can't have viable anti war candidates, it's on us for being pushovers.

 

[Kibbles]

Oh, you!.

Thanks for the fake quote? Sorry so was genuinely curious cause they say all over the news minorities support Hilary much more than Bernie, which is the exact opposite I see from my friends and I get the impression from his speeches he cares more.

 

[Tesseract]

punished donald's popularity with working class is unstoppable. America doesn't trust hillary, she should abandon all her superpac money now while she still can.

 

[ColdPizza]

At-will employment sure isn't a thing.

"At-will" doesn't absolve any company from getting sued for wrongful termination.

Here is a list of states with voter laws that employers must adhere by to provide time off to vote.

http://www.findlaw.com/voting-rights-law.html

 

[Like the hat?]

I'm betting most dems will vote democrat no matter who the nominee is, despite what they say now in the primary season.

 

[Pamplemousse]

No it's really not.

By supporting Hillary, you are supporting establishment politics in America. The same politics that have led to the decline of your society over the last 30 years. Your entire governing body has been bought out by groups like the Koch brothers, the Wallstreet banks, Walmart, etc which has led to an insane amount of deregulation and tax policy that has led to a drastic income disparity and a lowering of both median income but more importantly the quality of life of people at or below the median income levels.

And you can blame gerrymandering, you can blame republican party being a greater evil, you can blame whatever you want - but the fault is with the voter. You've been beaten down into the system to believe in lesser of two evil voting and "these things like universal healthcare, education, regulation of banks, etc are just too darn hard".

The 40% of your country has beaten the 60% of your country into defeatist attitude by the buying power of the 1%.

Tabris doing the Lord's work. PREACH! 🙌🏼

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Do you consider Obama progressive? Her voting record is to the left of him.

Yep, she supported the invasion of Iraq and the TPP, that's Super Progressive Bros. don't you know.

 

[ccbfan]

I will vote for whoever is against the TPP which unless Hillary changes her position will not be her.

 

[samn]

If you go into a shop and they don't have anything you want to buy then you leave without making a purchase. If enough people did this then the shop would go bust and have to find a new way of conducting business.

 

[LumpOfCole]

Hillary strikes me as a candidate who will get shit done, though I probably won't like about 30-40% the shit she gets done. I probably would like Bernie more if I believed he could get shit done, and I bet I'd like the vast majority of the shit he could try to get done, but I feel that he'd get cong-blocked just as hard as Obama and actually end up getting very little shit done at all.

I feel like Trump is the Mystery Box because he'll just outsource a lot of the tougher decisions to whatever Cabinet he appoints, which could be literally anyone based on the whims of Trump's future judgement instead of political connections. We might even see an Apprentice Winner as Secretary of the Interior, who the fuck knows.

I'm beginning to believe that we live in a multiverse, and we are the sole universe where Trump becomes president - that that is our universe's identity. In the future, when humanity can explore multiple universes at will, humans will come to this universe as a tourist destination to see "The universe where Donald Trump became president."

 

[Cocaloch]

You are letting perfect be the enemy of good. Some people will take a high chance of incremental improvement over an extremely low chance of moderate improvement. It's a pragmatic choice and those who are baffled at Bernie losing need to understand this.

This is the problem I see with a lot of people that don't understand why Bernie supporters might not support Hilary. They see politics as a single spectrum with Bernie simply being more to the left than Hillary. I'm quite sure that most of the Bernie supporters who would not vote for Hilary don't see it that way. They like that Bernie is advocating for fundamental change to the political and economic system of the country, something that Hilary seems to be no better than the Republicans on. Merge that viewpoint with acceleration theory and viola, it's a fairly reasonable way to vote.

 

[Hellsing321]

If you go into a shop and they don't have anything you want to buy then you leave without making a purchase. If enough people did this then the shop would go bust and have to find a new way of conducting business.

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

 

[Sobriquet]

Yep, she supported the invasion of Iraq and the TPP, that's Super Progressive Bros. don't you know.

She opposes TPP and said the Iraq vote was a mistake. Congress was lied to, remember?

I will vote for whoever is against the TPP which unless Hillary changes her position will not be her.

Again, she's against TPP.

 

[RoboPlato]

No it's really not.

By supporting Hillary, you are supporting establishment politics in America. The same politics that have led to the decline of your society over the last 30 years. Your entire governing body has been bought out by groups like the Koch brothers, the Wallstreet banks, Walmart, etc which has led to an insane amount of deregulation and tax policy that has led to a drastic income disparity and a lowering of both median income but more importantly the quality of life of people at or below the median income levels.

And you can blame gerrymandering, you can blame republican party being a greater evil, you can blame whatever you want - but the fault is with the voter. You've been beaten down into the system to believe in lesser of two evil voting and "these things like universal healthcare, education, regulation of banks, etc are just too darn hard".

The 40% of your country has beaten the 60% of your country into defeatist attitude by the buying power of the 1%.

I still don't get what point you're trying to make. If Bernie doesn't get the nomination, then you seem to think no candidate is worth electing. The problem is, someone IS getting elected no matter what and I don't want to see the positive work done by the Obama administration overturned. There's a lot of social issues that you are flat out ignoring that the GOP would take advantage of to make the lives of many Americans hell.

 

[Kimawolf]

And the alternative to Hillary if she is the winner of the Democratic primary will be who? Trump? Cruz? Rubio? The people saying they will vote for Trump if Sanders doesn't win the primary. I think those people are more dangerous than those people you're attempting to slam who will vote for Hillary.

What he is getting at is people voting for Hilary while proclaimed to be liberals are not really liberal. They are not after progress they want the status quo we have had. A centrist government where the candidate and president simply maintain. Everything about Hilary when it comes to progressive programs and goals is "well its not realistic but we can sorta kinda do this thing instead, mabye".

Which is why I'd not vote for her. At best things remain the same. At worst her more hawkish attitude comes out and we get into more conflicts.

 

[silvermember]

You all responded to a Tabris post, suckers.

The problem with Hillary is she is completely uninspiring. She also has a rather poor track record in the Senate of voting with whatever she thinks people will approve of at the time. This is why she initially supported the invasion of Iraq and the TPP, and then when public opinion turned against them suddenly she opposed them. There's little evidence that she has any opinions of her own, she just says whatever she thinks will get her votes. In that regard she's astonishingly similar to Donald Trump except that Trump openly appeals to some really nasty elements of society and Hillary doesn't.

People who say Hillary is like Trump aren't talking specifically about their opinions or their positions. They're talking about how Hillary and Trump both say exactly what they think their supporters want to hear. They are hollow shells that you project your own beliefs and opinions into, nothing more.

I don't understand why people fall for the spew that comes out of his mouth.

To be fair a lot of people supported the Iraqi War. Nobody can predict the future nor did few truly believe the Bush administration will go so far just to start the war. Most rational people make decisions based on the information they have, we don't have to knowledge of looking into the future.

With that said I agree, Hillary is a focus group candidate. Changing her views to suit the party, so she can win the Presidency. However, I still prefer her over a one trick pony whose platform only works IF congress somehow grew a heart.

 

[Pamplemousse]

She opposes TPP and said the Iraq vote was a mistake. Congress was lied to, remember?

Somehow Obama saw through the lie. Why couldn't Hillary Boredom Clinton?

 

[params7]

She opposes TPP and said the Iraq vote was a mistake. Congress was lied to, remember?

She supported Libya war, and wants to continue fighting regimes abroad in Syria, and has already derailed against Iran.

Simple fact is she is a candidate paid for by corporations and banks, and as such, she is beholden.

 

[minor effort]

So if you see Bernie out on the stump for Clinton come September, what then? If he's out there with a message of "If you supported my bid for the presidency, I encourage you to vote for Hillary this November."

Will his words mean nothing then?

 

[MHWilliams]

My point is, saying you're not going to vote for Hillary isn't merely being childish or spiteful, it's a protest against the military industrial complex. As far as I'm concerned, if you vote for a warmonger like Hillary/Cruz/Rubio bc they also represent your economic interests, then you have blood on your hands. Rather than knuckling under to the military industrial complex by voting "lesser of two evils", make a stand against it by going third party. For God's sake, it's 2016, it's the Information Age, if we can't have viable anti war candidates, it's on us for being pushovers.

Then be prepared for those that will be effected in a social context as to their rights to probably dislike you.

If your choice is Hillary on any GOP candidate in the primary running and you chose nothing, those folks, including many minorities and LGBT, essentially feel like you've cast them to the wolves and don't care about their lives.

If you go into a shop and they don't have anything you want to buy then you leave without making a purchase. If enough people did this then the shop would go bust and have to find a new way of conducting business.

Not voting is a null. You simply don't matter to the process at all. See my quote from Sanders before. A ton of people already don't vote and they've not mattered to the process.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

She opposes TPP and said the Iraq vote was a mistake. Congress was lied to, remember?



Again, she's against TPP.

Dude, she supported TPP in 2012 and then reversed her position later. Why are you even pretending otherwise?

 

[LittleBoots]

Are you sure? I believe she'll try

I think she thinks Dodd-Frank is enough.

Do you consider Obama progressive? Her voting record is to the left of him.

No. I don't think he's a progressive.

 

[Kangi]

If you go into a shop and they don't have anything you want to buy then you leave without making a purchase. If enough people did this then the shop would go bust and have to find a new way of conducting business.

No election is going to end with zero people voting.

If you're not voting, they don't ask why. You just don't matter to them then. And why would you? You've resigned yourself to not mattering. Not voting is not a protest anymore than threatening you're not going to breathe until Mom buys what you want is.

 

[JABEE]

Hillary is what is wrong with American politics. I also think Obama was weak too. You've had weak politicians bowing down to big money interests for the last 3 decades in the US. Which has led to the decline of your country for the average citizen.

One day I hope to have my southern brothers join the rest of the modern western world in our "socialist" quality of life. But it won't be through someone like Hillary.

If your income is above the median income in the US (and in a safe position not susceptible to ebb and flow of deregulated Wall Street) and you're selfish by not caring for the rest of your fellow Americans - ignore everything I just said because your lifestyle is great and Hillary is a great choice for you.

Tabris is right. Wow.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

If you go into a shop and they don't have anything you want to buy then you leave without making a purchase. If enough people did this then the shop would go bust and have to find a new way of conducting business.

And Trump comes in, buys the shop, and bulldozed the shop + the surrounding ones to make a playground for his rich friends. It all makes sense. He will make America great again!

 

[News Bot]

Hilary is a wretched politician but I'd still vote for her if Bernie was out of the running, because she's the lesser of two evils when against any of the Republican candidates.

 

[The Lamonster]

Bernie supporters who won't vote for Hillary wouldn't have voted in the first place.

It's embarrassing how easily they've succumbed to right wing talking points.

 

[pigeon]

I mean, it's okay to read Tabriz posts, but be aware that he doesn't read yours.

I think she thinks Dodd-Frank is enough.

She has specifically said she doesn't, so.

No. I don't think he's a progressive.

Do you live in America?