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[Prodigal Son]

I am confused. You earnestly believe things will get worse for minorities, women, and the LGBT if Clinton is elected as opposed to a GOP nom? Or do you mean this isn't something you or your friends care about because those issues won't affect you?




We seem to be on the same wavelength here.

Why is the Clinton camp so quick to make these assumptions and generalizations?
It's ridiculous and becoming genuinely offensive. You can't assume all of this poster' friends are male, heterosexual or Caucasian. I'm a Bernie supporter and I'm only one of those things. This is a baseless and foolish conclusion.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Here's the thing - I fully believe that we are liable to suffer under even more corporate oppression should Hillary win. Fully believe it. So, we're screwed either way.

This is straight up clown shoes.


And I reiterate women, minorities and LGBT folk thank you very much for not giving a fuck about them.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Why is the Clinton camp so quick to make these assumptions and generalizations?

Because it's generally the people who ain't losing shit under Biff's Casino President Trump who are going full throttle down the "we're all fucked anyway" path of chicken-fucking?

 

[border]

If Hillary loses the general to the Trump or Cruz the Democatic party establishment will only have themselves to blame for not picking a candidate (Bern) who would motivate more people to go out and vote. Polls even back this showing Bernie stronger against Trump.

Bernie was losing South Carolina in the polls by 24-29 points.

When the actual primary election happened he lost by nearly 50 points.

So either Clinton is exceptionally good at motivating people to go out and vote, or Sanders is extraordinarily poor at motivating people.

 

[Melkezadek]

Why is the Clinton camp so quick to make these assumptions and generalizations?
It's ridiculous and becoming genuinely offensive. You can't assume all of this poster' friends are male, heterosexual or Caucasian. I'm a Bernie supporter and I'm only one of those things. This is a baseless and foolish conclusion.

Because not voting either means none of the rhetoric on the right effects you in any real way or you're insane and leaving your fate into the hands of others. Which if not in your favor, will harshly affect your quality of life.

 

[Polari]

I'm always kind of surprised people don't understand Sanders supporters seeing appeal in Trump. Socially they're obviously poles apart, but their economic policies reject the neo-liberalism (at least superficially) both the establishment Democrats and Republicans have embraced since Reagan, and both also reject the big money politics which corrupt the system.

Immigration is part of that too - let's not pretend both parties haven't turned a blind eye to illegal immigration with the express purpose of benefiting their donors and special interests, artificially driving wages down and leaving both legal and illegal workers vulnerable to exploitation. Both Sanders and Trump seek to address this.

 

[BiggNife]

Here's the thing - I fully believe that we are liable to suffer under even more corporate oppression should Hillary win. Fully believe it. So, we're screwed either way.

We're way more screwed if we get another republican supreme court justice than whatever Hilary ends up doing. It's been brought up dozens of times in this thread.

It is incredibly short-sighted to not consider that.

 

[danm999]

Here's the thing - I fully believe that we are liable to suffer under even more corporate oppression should Hillary win. Fully believe it. So, we're screwed either way.

Compared to who? Trump? Are you joking?

 

[Neoweee]

Bernie was losing South Carolina in the polls by 24-29 points.

When the actual primary election happened he lost by nearly 50 points.

So either Clinton is exceptionally good at motivating people to go out and vote, or Sanders is extraordinarily poor at motivating people.

Or Primary polling is shit to its core, as evidence by years of data.

 

[Odrion]

Some Bern supports are anti establishment so they could vote Trump over Hillary.

Doesn't Trump actually have some weirdly social fiscal policies?

I can see Trump winning the brogressive vote over Hilary.

 

[Suikoguy]

You don't have to share all the ideals of someone you vote for. Have you considered that there are independents that are, as we speak, mulling over whether or not they should vote Sanders or Trump?

They are part of the electorate too. They matter too.

Who are these people? Unless they are not voting on policy.

A close approximation of policy overlaps:

[

Why would they be deciding between Sanders and Trump if Hillary is not far left enough for them?

Honestly; Hillary is probably overlapping Sanders more than that shows.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Because it's generally the people who ain't losing shit under Biff's Casino President Trump who are going full throttle down the "we're all fucked anyway" path of chicken-fucking?

And you have zero evidence to conclude this. This is not conducive to discussion. Concluding that the person who disagrees with you in political discussion just doesn't sympathize with the plight of disadvantaged groups of people is:

A) Grounded on nothing concrete (and even assumes this person is not, themselves, part of the given disadvantaged group)
B) Actually offensive.


This doesn't help discussion and needs to stop. Argue substance. Argue policy. Don't argue, sitting behind your keyboard, that this other person you know nothing about is just doesn't 'get it' because of innate factors about themselves beyond their control.

Who are these people?.

Also those whose policy position is anti-money in politics, "not the establishment" and, yes, those who simply vote for persons over policy.

Because not voting either means none of the rhetoric on the right effects you in any real way or you're insane and leaving your fate into the hands of others. Which if not in your favor, will harshly affect your quality of life.

There are real voting people out there who are independents. They may be independents because neither democrat nor republican policy speaks to them. But perhaps something Sanders said spoke to them? What happens when Sanders leaves the race and so, too, do his ideas? They are apathetic.

 

[aeolist]

I'm always kind of surprised people don't understand Sanders supporters seeing appeal in Trump. Socially they're obviously poles apart, but their economic policies reject the neo-liberalism (at least superficially) both the establishment Democrats and Republicans have embraced since Reagan, and both also reject the big money politics which corrupt the system.

Immigration is part of that too - let's not pretend both parties haven't turned a blind eye to illegal immigration with the express purpose of benefiting their donors and special interests, artificially driving wages down and leaving both legal and illegal workers vulnerable to exploitation. Both Sanders and Trump seek to address this.

what economic policies has trump even put out? and he's not even against money in politics, just outside money which i guess means we can only have billionaires run from now on

 

[border]

I'm always kind of surprised people don't understand Sanders supporters seeing appeal in Trump. Socially they're obviously poles apart, but their economic policies reject the neo-liberalism (at least superficially) both the establishment Democrats and Republicans have embraced since Reagan, and both also reject the big money politics which corrupt the system.

If you believe that the Republican Congress is controlled by money-rich corporations, then why in God's name would you want to give them a Republican president who will rubber stamp all the awful legislation that Congress hands him? Picking Trump over Clinton is insanity, even if you hate corporate influenced politics. At least with Hilary the resulting legislative gridlock would prevent lobbyists and corporations from easily passing legislation that favors them.

 

[Aaronology]

Why is the Clinton camp so quick to make these assumptions and generalizations?
It's ridiculous and becoming genuinely offensive. You can't assume all of this poster' friends are male, heterosexual or Caucasian. I'm a Bernie supporter and I'm only one of those things. This is a baseless and foolish conclusion.

Baseless? Hardly. People don't support candidates who are outspokenly antagonistic towards their demographic group. I can very safely conclude that someone who intends to support Trump after Bernie is likely not Muslim or Mexican American, likely not African American, quite possibly not LGBT (but this is not as certain, admittedly) and possibly not a woman. Will this hold across the board and be accurate 100%? Of course not. But it is definitely a safe assumption to make and so far it is right more than not.

Would you bet that that posters' friends are not mostly male, heterosexual and/or Caucasian, Son? I doubt it.

 

[SneakersSO]

How much melanin does your group contain, combined?

Tons. None of us grew up white or privileged. So get that nonsense out of here. We all grew up Hispanic/black/Asian, many of us coming from immigrant families, and see what life has become in inner city neighborhoods. Bernie is the first, FIRST, sign of hope we have ever seen for those in the communities we come from.

 

[minor effort]

Who are these people? Unless they are not voting on policy.

A close approximation of policy overlaps:



Why would they be deciding between Sanders and Trump if Hillary is not far left enough for them?

I guess I can only conclude that there are a subset of Sanders voters who never understood his platform and only support him based on anti-establishment image. In that case those voters never were a reliable part of the Democratic voting base.

 

[HyperOne]

I'll post my two cents, I'll vote for Trump over Hillary because I refuse to vote for an establishment ANYTHING at this point.

I truly don't care which side as long as the winner is insurgent.

 

[lenovox1]

Or Primary polling is shit to its core, as evidence by years of data.

One can't hold that position and hold the position that polls 9 or months outside of the general election hold any weight with regards to head-to-head matchups at the same time.

Not saying that goomba or you hold that position, as you may disagree with what he said and vice versa.

 

[Polari]

If you believe that the Republican Congress is controlled by money-rich corporations, then why in God's name would you want to give them a Republican president who will rubber stamp all the awful legislation that Congress hands him? Picking Trump over Clinton is insanity, even if you hate corporate influenced politics. At least with Hilary the resulting legislative gridlock would prevent lobbyists and corporations from easily passing legislation that favors them.

I'm not claiming they're rational.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Baseless? Hardly. People don't support candidates who are outspokenly antagonistic towards their demographic group. I can very safely conclude that someone who intends to support Trump after Bernie is likely not Muslim or Mexican American, likely not African American, quite possibly not LGBT (but this is not as certain, admittedly) and possibly not a woman. Will this hold across the board and be accurate 100%? Of course not. But it is definitely a safe assumption to make and so far it is right more than not.

Would you bet that that posters' friends are not mostly male, heterosexual and/or Caucasian, Son? I doubt it.

there will be republican woman that will go for Trump.

 

[BiggNife]

I'll post my two cents, I'll vote for Trump over Hillary because I refuse to vote for an establishment ANYTHING at this point.

I truly don't care which side as long as the winner is insurgent.

So you don't care that Trump is racist/sexist and that minorities/people of low income would be screwed by him just because he's anti establishment??????????????????????

 

[Aaronology]

there will be republican woman that will go for Trump.

There will be Republican minorities, LGBT and otherwise that go for Trump. I was specifically talking about those who consider themselves (or pretend to be) Progressive who then segue to Trump.

 

[border]

Or Primary polling is shit to its core, as evidence by years of data.

Exit polling still showed a low-youth turnout, and that is Sanders' primary demographic.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

I'll post my two cents, I'll vote for Trump over Hillary because I refuse to vote for an establishment ANYTHING at this point.

I truly don't care which side as long as the winner is insurgent.

soedgy.jpg

Edit: To expand on my dislike of what you said, you've basically admitted you have no actual policy beliefs and simply want someone who is an outsider. You care nothing for who that person may appoint to the Supreme Court or how qualified they are to hold office. No matter how damaging that person may be to you, people like you, or people you care about.

They just need to be an outsider.

How very, very edgy.

 

[ATF487]

I'm always kind of surprised people don't understand Sanders supporters seeing appeal in Trump. Socially they're obviously poles apart, but their economic policies reject the neo-liberalism (at least superficially) both the establishment Democrats and Republicans have embraced since Reagan, and both also reject the big money politics which corrupt the system.

Immigration is part of that too - let's not pretend both parties haven't turned a blind eye to illegal immigration with the express purpose of benefiting their donors and special interests, artificially driving wages down and leaving both legal and illegal workers vulnerable to exploitation. Both Sanders and Trump seek to address this.

It's a bit too simplistic to make this comparison though, which is why people are rejecting it. You'd have to strain to find the middle of the venn diagram with Trump and Sanders. Only things I can think of are:

-Being a party outsider
-Wanting more protectionist trade policies
-Either current advocating or previously advocating single payer health care

The vast majority of their policies are drastically different

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I more sad than anything that people are willing to vote for idiocy or give away their vote to "shake things up."

You'll get shakes all right

 

[Polari]

How much melanin does your group contain, combined?

Really?

 

[lenovox1]

I'll post my two cents, I'll vote for Trump over Hillary because I refuse to vote for an establishment ANYTHING at this point.

I truly don't care which side as long as the winner is insurgent.

You're an anarchist with no regards to the actual policies or postions these people hold and you're outlook for the future is to "make the world burn."

I don't know why you believe that the only way to enact change in our political system is by voting for causes outside of your interests or the interests of your neighbors, but I'd like to say I'm sorry in place of whoever did that to you.

 

[paragonpro]

Everyone feels differently, for some the amount lf trump hate scares them. We all have doomsday scenarios for any of the canidates, admittedly, it it was down to trump and clinton, Id vote clinton, not that im partial to either, but lets remember that the president is not the end all be all of authority, and there is a decision making process that goes beyond him/her. This election has brought out so much hate and vile in people with aposing views. My father and sister are no longer speaking because of it, i just want it over with

 

[watershed]

There are people who are tired of our current political system and will cast a vote against this system or choose not to participate by not voting. Although I question the effectiveness of such a vote/non-vote, it's easy for me to understand people not wanting to perpetuate a system of politics that, in their view, has not benefited them or does not serve their interests. To me that is entirely understandable even if I disagree.

So for many, a vote against Hillary or even a vote for Trump is a vote against the establishment even if it is also a vote for the unknown or for some very bad policies.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm always kind of surprised people don't understand Sanders supporters seeing appeal in Trump. Socially they're obviously poles apart, but their economic policies reject the neo-liberalism (at least superficially) both the establishment Democrats and Republicans have embraced since Reagan, and both also reject the big money politics which corrupt the system.

Immigration is part of that too - let's not pretend both parties haven't turned a blind eye to illegal immigration with the express purpose of benefiting their donors and special interests, artificially driving wages down and leaving both legal and illegal workers vulnerable to exploitation. Both Sanders and Trump seek to address this.

This explanation makes Sanders sounds worse more so than his supporters more understandable.

 

[border]

I'll post my two cents, I'll vote for Trump over Hillary because I refuse to vote for an establishment ANYTHING at this point.

The establishment does not like Trump, but I don't think that makes him anti-establishment. They hate Cruz as well -- is he anti-establishment? Trump differs with the mainstream Republican party on some issues, but he is definitely not the right's version of Bernie Sanders. He's not seeking a social and political revolution -- he just wants power and will say whatever it takes to get it.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Baseless? Hardly. People don't support candidates who are outspokenly antagonistic towards their demographic group. I can very safely conclude that someone who intends to support Trump after Bernie is likely not Muslim or Mexican American, likely not African American, quite possibly not LGBT (but this is not as certain, admittedly) and possibly not a woman. Will this hold across the board and be accurate 100%? Of course not. But it is definitely a safe assumption to make and so far it is right more than not.

Would you bet that that posters' friends are not mostly male, heterosexual and/or Caucasian, Son? I doubt it.

This is literally fox news reasoning. It doesn't become less offensive because it's coming from the left.

Would you bet that that posters' friends are not mostly male, heterosexual and/or Caucasian, Son? I doubt it

Man, the fuck is your basis for thinking this? Because this is a video game board? Because you assume he's a straight white male with straight white male friends? Come on. People are individuals. You can't just broad-brush paint an entire group like that.

Is being a non-heterosexual black male Bernie supporter a statistical anomaly? Do I matter less than the white ones? What is this shit?

 

[Steel]

So you don't care that Trump is racist/sexist and that minorities/people of low income would be screwed by him just because he's anti establishment??????????????????????

Fuck, I need to stop reading this thread

Yeah the amount of outright stupidity in people saying "establishment" this and "corporation" that and then proceed to list that as a reason to either not vote against trump or for Trump know fuck all of what they're talking about.

 

[Aaronology]

So you don't care that Trump is racist and sexist just because he's anti establishment??????????????????????

Fuck, I need to stop reading this thread

Me too. Because even if "no" is not the answer that poster would give, "no, I don't care" is certainly the answer I believe most of Trump's supporters would. And "no, I don't care" is the ultimate answer any Sanders fan who then falls into Trump's camp would also reply with if being honest.

Truth is, most people don't give a shit about racism and sexism if they are not the target of either. And up until this election cycle I was mostly naive enough to believe that callousness and apathy was mostly limited to those on the right who hadn't already progressed to outright antagonism towards the non-Majority. However, I am beginning to realize that the Left really isn't that much better. It seems like any alliance between the liberal & privileged and those who have relied on liberalism as bastions against the Right is mostly coincidental if anything.

I think I've lost a lot of faith in a lot of people this election cycle and I'm quite ready for it to be over.

 

[Kyosaiga]

You all hate Hillary irrationally SO much that you're willing to let the country burn down, which in effect would effect the ENTIRE planet's sovereign nations by proxy, just for some shitty principles of a guy who was lying to you and promising you rainbows and unicorns from the day he ran?

These are not the thoughts of someone intellectual, or saying "fuck the system", but the ramblings and musings of a privileged petulant child.

 

[aeolist]

This explanation makes Sanders sounds worse more so than his supporters more understandable.

it's also a misrepresentation of policy, sanders wants amnesty and a path to citizenship while trump wants universal deportation and a big wall with guns on it.

also as i mentioned sanders wants campaign finance reform and trump hasn't said anything beyond talking up his own bank account and making fun of his opponents for taking money. if anything i think he would be against it because it would take away his biggest talking point.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'll post my two cents, I'll vote for Trump over Hillary because I refuse to vote for an establishment ANYTHING at this point.

I truly don't care which side as long as the winner is insurgent.

As always the oppressed groups thank you for throwing them out to the wolves.

 

[Suikoguy]

*snip*
There are real voting people out there who are independents. They may be independents because neither democrat nor republican policy speaks to them. But perhaps something Sanders said spoke to them? What happens when Sanders leaves the race and so, too, do his ideas? They are apathetic.

Ok, for those single issue voters, they only want Millionaire self-funding candidates running? A vote for trump on that issue is pretty much the same thing.

Keep in mind that other then Super-Pacs donations are still limited, and the big scary "Banks are donating millions to Hillary" is really "Bank employees are donating millions to Hillary".

If those same employee donations (or Big Bank donations, as some insist on putting it) went to a Sanders type candidate next election, but the opposing candidate was a Trump self funder. Who would you vote for?
Or should that Sanders type campaign check who their employer is before accepting donations?

 

[Melkezadek]

There are real voting people out there who are independents. They may be independents because neither democrat nor republican policy speaks to them. But perhaps something Sanders said spoke to them? What happens when Sanders leaves the race and so, too, do his ideas? They are apathetic.

Apathetic. So not giving a damn about those who would be affected by the policies the right are trying to implement.

I can't respect that. If there was a candidate gaining ground that was advocating the deportation of all Caucasian people, I would make sure I vote as to do my part in making sure that person doesn't get elected. That policy wouldn't affect me, but not only do I disagree with the notion, I find it abhorrent.

I can't respect that level of selfishness. There is a lot at stake with this election. This isn't 2008 where it wasn't this polarizing.

 

[eBay Huckster]

And you have zero evidence to conclude this.

That's the beauty of actually getting an answer to that question: it gives me a lens through which I can view their apathy. Now that Sneakers has actually answered the question, I'm significantly more sympathetic.

There is a very large difference between a white person concluding there's no hope in the system and therefore it doesn't matter who we vote for, and a person of color doing the same thing. Because if you're in the first group, more likely than not you aren't feeling shit when the hammer drops.

Really?

Yes, really.

 

[Phased]

To be fair, a lot of the people saying they'll vote for Trump or won't vote at all if Sanders loses probably weren't/aren't going to vote anyways because of their age bracket.

The demographics of the last 4 states have shown despite huge support among the younger age ranges, they don't actually show up to vote or caucus for him, they just make Reddit posts and talk about how they are anti-establishment.

 

[atr0cious]

As always the oppressed groups thank you for throwing them out to the wolves.

Lol like those groups were ever in their mind.

 

[border]

also as i mentioned sanders wants campaign finance reform and trump hasn't said anything beyond talking up his own bank account and making fun of his opponents for taking money. if anything i think he would be against it because it would take away his biggest talking point.

Yeah, that's another thing that irks me. Yeah, Trump hasn't taken any money from corporations, but at the same time he's said nothing about reducing corporate influence on politics. His financial independence is only a means for him to insult and denigrate his competitors -- he's not at all committed to campaign finance reform.

 

[minor effort]

Ah, this thread is making me nostalgic for my first election back in 2000, when I threatened several times to vote for Nader.

Yeah, that's another thing that irks me. Yeah, Trump hasn't taken any money from corporations, but at the same time he's said nothing about reducing corporate influence on politics. His financial independence is only a means for him to insult and denigrate his competitors -- he's not at all committed to campaign finance reform.

Exactly. What makes me think he's supposed to be Sanders soulmate on this issue? He's a billionaire and can self-fund. Fantastic. That's not who I want all my future candidates to be.

 

[partyphone]

I'll post my two cents, I'll vote for Trump over Hillary because I refuse to vote for an establishment ANYTHING at this point.

I truly don't care which side as long as the winner is insurgent.

how is Trump not part of the establishment?

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Me too. Because even if "no" is not the answer that poster would give, "no, I don't care" is certainly the answer I believe most of Trump's supporters would. And "no, I don't care" is the ultimate answer any Sanders fan who then falls into Trump's camp would also reply with if being honest.

Truth is, most people don't give a shit about racism and sexism if they are not the target of either. And up until this election cycle I was mostly naive enough to believe that callousness and apathy was mostly limited to those on the right who hadn't already progressed to outright antagonism towards the non-Majority. However, I am beginning to realize that the Left really isn't that much better. It seems like any alliance between the liberal & privileged and those who have relied on liberalism as bastions against the Right is mostly coincidental if anything.

I think I've lost a lot of faith in a lot of people this election cycle and I'm quite ready for it to be over.

Between the extreme forms of political correctness and rushes to name calling being used to silence any and all discussion by dissenting individuals or groups (rather than confronting that shit head on with thoughtful debate and logic on our side), and this election cycle, I've found myself growing weary of being called Liberal.

I can foresee the Democratic Party splintering in much the same way as the GOP, and possibly even faster than it's happening to them.

 

[Polari]

it's also a misrepresentation of policy, sanders wants amnesty and a path to citizenship while trump wants universal deportation and a big wall with guns on it.

For sure they seek to address it in different ways - the end result in terms of the strength of labour vs. capital is the same though (at least the way they pitch it - I find it hard to believe Trump is against cheap labour).

 

[malingenie]

I'll post my two cents, I'll vote for Trump over Hillary because I refuse to vote for an establishment ANYTHING at this point.

I truly don't care which side as long as the winner is insurgent.

You are the people I am most afraid off. Anti-establishment is not a position. Going from Bernie to Trump is the most idiotic position, and i hear it over and over again.