The Amount of Hillary Hate Scares Me

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Hillary Clinton is weak on economic issues, the surveillance state, money in politics, going after criminals in the financial sector etc. and strong on social issues.

If you want the people who consider the above (weak parts) their #1 issues voting for Clinton might I suggest dropping the "bernie bro", "brogressive", "racist and sexist for not caring about X" narrative and actually trying to understand why someone not already voting for clinton might have some big problems with her. Insulting liberals with different priorities than yourself is not going to help her get any more voters, it'll probably make it worse.

And personally I don't get a vote. As a european I just dread the terrible things she will do with the NSA and the surveillance industry as well as pressuring tech companies into giving her back doors etc.
 
Ok, for those single issue voters, they only want Millionaire self-funding candidates running? A vote for trump on that issue is pretty much the same thing.

Hey, man. I never claimed these voters were thinking rationally, or had all the information at play to make a reasonable decision. In my opinion, if you're on the fence about voting for Sanders or voting for Trump, you've very likely got a ton of other issues you need to work out.

Apathetic. So not giving a damn about those who would be affected by the policies the right are trying to implement.

I can't respect that. If there was a candidate gaining ground that was advocating the deportation of all Caucasian people, I would make sure I vote as to do my part in making sure that person doesn't get elected. That policy wouldn't affect me, but not only do I disagree with the notion, I find it abhorrent.

I can't respect that level of selfishness. There is a lot at stake with this election. This isn't 2008 where it wasn't this polarizing.

Part of me agrees with you. Thing is, I'm not actively condemning those who are apathetic. I'm saying they have the absolute right to be and shouldn't be condemned for acting within their rights.

How would you feel about someone who is right-wing-leaning who stays home on election day? Is it a good thing then simply because you disagree with them or should everyone get out and vote even if many of those people are voting republican?


That's the beauty of actually getting an answer to that question: it gives me a lens through which I can view their apathy. Now that Sneakers has actually answered the question, I'm significantly more sympathetic.

There is a very large difference between a white person concluding there's no hope in the system and therefore it doesn't matter who we vote for, and a person of color doing the same thing.
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No. No I don't think there is in my opinion. A vote is a vote.

The consequence the vote matters. Who does the voting doesn't particularly matter.
 
I'm starting to think a lot of fellow Sanders supporters are just entitled babies.

I came to socialism because I worked to the bone, worked birthdays and holidays for chump change. I wasn't allowed to have a life. There was no union, it was all about the bottom line. I saw my people hurting and I saw how wrong the system we live in was.

Anti-establishment is not so important that we should throw these people under the bus because our candidate didn't get elected. Anti-establishment is managing damage so we can fight another day. It will take decades to undo the damage if Trump wins, but you've decided to give up right then, right there instead of making a Bernie 2.0 possible through hard work.

Makes me sick.

You care more about Bernie's past and history and record more than you do actual people.

Say what you will about Hilary, she will keep what we're going through now in place for sure. But that's a hell of a lot better than taking it in a regressive manner. We cannot afford that, not now.

You are no allies of mine.
 
Apathetic. So not giving a damn about those who would be affected by the policies the right are trying to implement.

I can't respect that. If there was a candidate gaining ground that was advocating the deportation of all Caucasian people, I would make sure I vote as to do my part in making sure that person doesn't get elected. That policy wouldn't affect me, but not only do I disagree with the notion, I find it abhorrent.

I can't respect that level of selfishness. There is a lot at stake with this election. This isn't 2008 where it wasn't this polarizing.

This is a god damn good point. To the white people here (or Christians, or atheists, or whatever) talking about how willing they are to vote Trump or Independent, maybe consider if the candidate in question were threatening to deport all white people (or all Christians, or all atheists, etc). Wouldn't you hope maybe someone would stand up and fight for you?

I'm starting to think a lot of fellow Sanders supporters are just entitled babies.

I came to socialism because I worked to the bone, worked birthdays and holidays for chump change. I wasn't allowed to have a life. There was no union, it was all about the bottom line. I saw my people hurting and I saw how wrong the system we live in was.

Anti-establishment is not so important that we should throw these people under the bus because our candidate didn't get elected. Anti-establishment is managing damage so we can fight another day. It will take decades to undo the damage if Trump wins, but you've decided to give up right then, right there instead of making a Bernie 2.0 possible through hard work.

Makes me sick.

You care more about Bernie's past and history and record more than you do actual people.

Say what you will about Hilary, she will keep what we're going through now in place for sure. But that's a hell of a lot better than taking it in a regressive manner. We cannot afford that, not now.

You are no allies of mine?

If you could hear me clapping, I'd cheer for you for this post.
 
For sure they seek to address it in different ways - the end result in terms of the strength of labour vs. capital is the same though (at least the way they pitch it - I find it hard to believe Trump is against cheap labour).

they seek to address it in completely opposite ways. all you can say that's similar between them is that they both recognize a problem with current immigration policy which is true of literally every candidate in the race.
 
This is literally fox news reasoning. It doesn't become less offensive because it's coming from the left.



Man, the fuck is your basis for thinking this? Because this is a video game board? Because you assume he's a straight white male with straight white male friends? Come on. People are individuals. You can't just broad-brush paint an entire group like that.

Is being a non-heterosexual black male Bernie supporter a statistical anomaly? Do I matter less than the white ones? What is this shit?
You should, first, stop getting upset about arguments and statements that I have not said. I've not made any remarks about how much you matter as a Sanders' supporter being non-straight and black, and won't reply to that or any of your other strawmen.

Secondly, I stand by my statements vis a vis that poster likely not being Mexican American, Muslim, black or LGBT. Claiming things will be the same regardless of who takes the White House is extremely telling by itself. Life will be noticeable different for those groups under a GOP presidency with a GOP Congress and GOP USSC than w/Clinton in the White House. If you are oblivious to this due to lack of knowledge or outright apathy towards those groups, it's safe to assume you (and your many friends) probably don't fall within those demographics.
 
This actually reminds me of a piece I saw on CNN where a reporter was going around asking Sander's supporters what Socialism was. None of them could answer the question and bungled it in hilarious ways.

I feel like those people are the type who'd vote Trump if Bernie couldn't get the nomination.
 
This is a god damn good point. To the white people here (or Christians, or atheists, or whatever) talking about how willing they are to vote Trump or Independent, maybe consider if the candidate in question were threatening to deport all white people (or all Christians, or all atheists, etc). Wouldn't you hope maybe someone would stand up and fight for you?

Trump is threatening to deport illegal immigrants, not all ________ though.

I mean, it is the law of the land as it currently stands. He's wanting to enforce it.

The Muslim thing is way over the line though.
 
No. No I don't think there is in my opinion. A vote is a vote.

The consequence the vote matters. Who does the voting doesn't particularly matter.

To be honest, at this point I'm beyond caring who, specifically, the vote (or non-vote) is for.

There's an undeserved sense of entitlement behind white apathy that just turns me off altogether, in a way that apathy among POC quite probably never will, and it has a lot to do with the fact that "the issues", in a general sense, have always shat on the latter group about as much as they've helped.
 
Trump is threatening to deport illegal immigrants, not all ________ though.

I mean, it is the law of the land as it currently stands. He's wanting to enforce it.

The Muslim thing is way over the line though.

Rounding up 16 million people and taking parents away from their children isn't over the line already?

In what world is that even realistic?
 
Part of me agrees with you. Thing is, I'm not actively condemning those who are apathetic. I'm saying they have the absolute right to be and shouldn't be condemned for acting within their rights.

How would you feel about someone who is right-wing-leaning who stays home on election day? Is it a good thing then simply because you disagree with them or should everyone get out and vote even if many of those people are voting republican?

Here's where we'll have to agree to disagree. It's not "I simply disagree" with them. I'm not disagreeing with them because their ideas of economical reform differ from mine. I'm not disagreeing with them because they don't think the minimum wage shouldn't be raised. These are political issues we disagree on and can argue them rationally. What they are saying that certain people in this country don't belong here because they're rapists and terrorists. They are saying that the LGBT community shouldn't be allowed to marry. They're embracing white supremacist and other hate groups.

Some things are just wrong and we can't sit back and allow this to happen. Even if they don't impact us directly.
 
You should, first, stop getting upset about arguments and statements that I have not said. I've not made any remarks about how much you matter as a Sanders' supporter being non-straight and black, and won't reply to that or any of your other strawmen.


If you are oblivious to this due to lack of knowledge or outright apathy towards those groups, it's safe to assume you (and your many friends) don't fall within those demographics.

I'm going to assume this 'you' refers to people in general, because I assume you know that this discussion hasn't been about 'me' or 'my' friends. Wrong poster.

Secondly, I stand by my statements vis a vis that poster likely not being Mexican American, Muslim, black or LGBT. Claiming things will be the same regardless of who takes the White House is extremely telling by itself. Life will be noticeable different for those groups under a GOP presidency with a GOP Congress and GOP USSC than w/Clinton in the White House.

Based on nothing. Very many people believe that inability to address concerns related to these disadvantaged groups has little to do with democrat or republican, but the interests of big money and corporations. Whether not these individuals are right about that perspective has no bearing on their own identification with the disadvantaged group in question.


To be honest, at this point I'm beyond caring who, specifically, the vote (or non-vote) is for.

There's an undeserved sense of entitlement behind white apathy that just turns me off altogether, in a way that apathy among POC quite probably never will, and it has a lot to do with the fact that "the issues", in a general sense, have always shat on the latter group about as much as they've helped.

As a black man, I'm not particularly fond of thinking differently of people and their actions because of the way they look. People of european descent aren't excluded from this principle.
 
I am fully behind the OP.

Whenever anyone complains about Hillary's personality or something they dislike about her affect and insinuate they won't vote for her, I just lost off the dozens of awful things that would happen to America if she loses.

People are fickle idiots that vote based on personality instead of how a person's presidency would actually impact their lives. Yay!
 
man now i can't wait for bernie to endorse hillary and give some stump speeches for her post-primary

i wonder if people will say he sold out
 
I am fully behind the OP.

Whenever anyone complains about Hillary's personality or something they dislike about her affect and insinuate they won't vote for her, I just lost off the dozens of awful things that would happen to America if she loses.

People are fickle idiots that vote based on personality instead of how a person's presidency would actually impact their lives. Yay!

There was someone earlier in the thread that thought Sanders was more like Obama than Hilary because Sanders talks about hope vocally like Obama did.

Of course that poster also ignored the fact that Hilary is more in line with Obama policy-wise than Sanders, but you know. Minor detail, right?

man now i can't wait for bernie to endorse hillary and give some stump speeches for her post-primary

i wonder if people will say he sold out

Hilary should just make him her VP. Would solve a lot of issues and they don't actually hate each other.
 
Voting Trump instead of Sanders is a really dumb idea. Sure Trump is anti-establishment, but that doesn't stop many of his policies from being ridiculous. I'm glad that he'll be the Republican candidate, but he shouldn't ever be president of anything other then a business.
 
As a black man, I'm not particularly fond of thinking differently of people and their actions because of the way they look. People of european descent aren't excluded from this principle.

I'm a mixed, disabled man, and I'm not as fond of it as my posts make me seem. But it's what I've observed basically across the board: the POC involving themselves, if they're apathetic, are apathetic for reasons other than because they showed up once and Their Guy with Their Pet Issue didn't win.
 
Take a deep breath and realize with full honesty and humility that no matter whom we get, we're in a race to the bottom of sorts, where things will get worse before they get better.

Accepting this, pick a candidate that makes the fall less drastic. Do you want to dive head first down the cliff with regressives, or baby hops downwards with the other party?
 
Here's where we'll have to agree to disagree. It's not "I simply disagree" with them. I'm not disagreeing with them because their ideas of economical reform differ from mine. I'm not disagreeing with them because they don't think the minimum wage shouldn't be raised. These are political issues we disagree on and can argue them rationally. What they are saying that certain people in this country don't belong here because they're rapists and terrorists. They are saying that the LGBT community shouldn't be allowed to marry. They're embracing white supremacist and other hate groups.

Some things are just wrong and we can't sit back and allow this to happen. Even if they don't impact us directly.

I can't even say we'll agree to disagree. We agree. I'm giving Republicans too much credit. I'm trying to believe that republican perspectives are as legitimate and rational as anyone else's but the reality is hitting me that this really isn't the case.

I'm a mixed, disabled man, and I'm not as fond of it as my posts make me seem. But it's what I've observed basically across the board.

There are perfectly understandable and even justifiable reasons as to why you feel as you do. I'm just not a fan of viewing people's opinions an actions through the lens of their race and ethnicity.

I'd love to be able to comment on black people supporting Bernie without first having to establish that I'm black, for example.


It'll be a great day when the Republican party reforms and puts out a candidate that's not ass backwards on social issues. 'Til then they're crazy.

I've posted it before but I firmly believe that candidates like Rand Paul and libertarians of his sort are the future of the party. Pretty certain that in a couple decades we'll be seeing Bernie-Liberalism with the Democrats and hardcore Liberalism with the Republicans.
 
Rounding up 16 million people and taking parents away from their children isn't over the line already?

In what world is that even realistic?

I'm not saying it's realistic (or particularly humane) just that the comparison the quoted poster made is complete bullshit.
 
That Rolling Stone Trump article made me realize that some people only care about their jobs not being outsourced, in which a number of fairly deluded union Bernie supporters would rather support Trump than Hillary. Life made me realize that some people just don't want a women leading the country, despite their outwardly progressive political views.

Those are two reasons for the vitriol. I'm sure there are others.
 
I can't even say we'll agree to disagree. We agree. I'm giving Republicans too much credit. I'm trying to believe that republican perspectives are as legitimate and rational as anyone else's but the reality is hitting me that this really isn't the case.

It'll be a great day when the Republican party reforms and puts out a candidate that's not ass backwards on social issues. 'Til then they're crazy.
 
One can't hold that position and hold the position that polls 9 or months outside of the general election hold any weight with regards to head-to-head matchups at the same time.

Not saying that goomba or you hold that position, as you may disagree with what he said and vice versa.

Oh, I know. I've been in this and other threads discussing favorability polls, etc. This far out, they have essentially zero relationship with November performance.
 
I'm not saying it's realistic (or particularly humane) just that the comparison the quoted poster made is complete bullshit.

It's not bullshit in the slightest.

He's not threatening to deport Christians or atheists, but I included them because he is threatening to block Muslims from entering the country and has praised the effects of Japanese internment camps.

You seemed to have made that connection in your original response. I can see now that you didn't.

You know, it really isn't my problem.

I earned my comfortable life and continue to do so. I will not be shamed into voting for someone I hate.

Then you were never a Democratic vote.

So nothing of value was lost.
 
Hillary Clinton is weak on economic issues, the surveillance state, money in politics, going after criminals in the financial sector etc. and strong on social issues.

If you want the people who consider the above (weak parts) their #1 issues voting for Clinton might I suggest dropping the "bernie bro", "brogressive", "racist and sexist for not caring about X" narrative and actually trying to understand why someone not already voting for clinton might have some big problems with her. Insulting liberals with different priorities than yourself is not going to help her get any more voters, it'll probably make it worse.

And personally I don't get a vote. As a european I just dread the terrible things she will do with the NSA and the surveillance industry as well as pressuring tech companies into giving her back doors etc.

And even if I believe you on all that, and I don't, the other option is even weaker on those issues in addition to being insane on the social issues.
 
You shouldn't care as much about the wording I choose to use. You know what I'm trying to say here, and you're just nit-picking. I understand that people might not agree with everything I say. Sure, it's my opinion. I used, "fact", because I'm targeting an audience.

What I'm saying is it won't be the end of the world if a republican wins and gets into office. To be honest, they look no worse than the prospectives from the democratic party. They look equally as crap.
 
There are perfectly understandable and even justifiable reasons as to why you feel as you do. I'm just not a fan of viewing people's opinions an actions through the lens of their race and ethnicity.

I'd love to be able to comment on black people supporting Bernie without first having to establish that I'm black, for example.

Yeah, on second thought none of the above that I posted regarding (and containing) what amounts to "race pre-testing" was a particularly good look, not the least of which because it disregards literally any other context for someone's apathy. I apologize to everyone for that much; my personal observations ain't an excuse to be reductivist!
 
What I'm saying is it won't be the end of the world if a republican wins and gets into office. To be honest, they look no worse than the prospectives from the democratic party. They look equally as crap.

Clown shoes.


You will lose the Supreme Court for decades and only one side is racist, sexist, anti-LGBT, and the list goes on

I mean one side is campaigning on repealing ACA, opposes the same sex marriage ruling, wants to defund Planned Parenthood and over turn Roe v Wade, against the poor and the social net, etc.... but sure they're just the same.
 
What I'm saying is it won't be the end of the world if a republican wins and gets into office. To be honest, they look no worse than the prospectives from the democratic party. They look equally as crap.

In what world is Hilary Clinton as crappy as Donald Trump?

I mean seriously, you're gonna have to explain that.

I've posted it before but I firmly believe that candidates like Rand Paul and libertarians of his sort are the future of the party. Pretty certain that in a couple decades we'll be seeing Bernie-Liberalism with the Democrats and hardcore Liberalism with the Republicans.

I'd hope that the party would reform into something better than the one-answer-to-everything libertarians. It doesn't get anymore unrealistic than that.
 
You know, it really isn't my problem.

I earned my comfortable life and continue to do so. I will not be shamed into voting for someone I hate.

Yup, you're so awesome that you would have achieved the exact same things you have today with equal amount of effort, no matter your ethnicity.

I'm glad you've finally come around to this way of thinking after deeply and honestly examining the plight of social groups that you don't belong to.


*cough*

7f21a8d7b.jpg


*cough*
 
Hillary Clinton is weak on economic issues, the surveillance state, money in politics, going after criminals in the financial sector etc. and strong on social issues.

If you want the people who consider the above (weak parts) their #1 issues voting for Clinton might I suggest dropping the "bernie bro", "brogressive", "racist and sexist for not caring about X" narrative and actually trying to understand why someone not already voting for clinton might have some big problems with her. Insulting liberals with different priorities than yourself is not going to help her get any more voters, it'll probably make it worse.

And personally I don't get a vote. As a european I just dread the terrible things she will do with the NSA and the surveillance industry as well as pressuring tech companies into giving her back doors etc.

I have neither the time nor the desire to go point by point with you on everything you claim about Clinton.

But on her stance regarding the financial sector, her plan has been hailed by reporters and economists as being even more punishing (and realistic) than Sanders' Wall Street plan:

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/8/9482521/hillary-clinton-financial-reform

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/16/opinion/democrats-republicans-and-wall-street-tycoons.html?_r=2
 
You know, it really isn't my problem.

I earned my comfortable life and continue to do so. I will not be shamed into voting for someone I hate.
That's pretty cold. I hit the triple jackpot of being a minority (Hispanic/latina, trans and undocumented) but I hope you change your mind one day.

*okay, read your post below mine and can understand you a bit better but still. However, you're still pretty fucking cold and don't seem to have much empathy for others.
 
All of my RL friends are Bernie supports, and we all share the same sentiment in either not voting, or voting independent should Hillary get the nom. We disgusted with things that have gone on in the DNC and how they have built up around Hillary before the election cycle even began, and we already feel that the country would be in bad hands regardless of who won outside of Bernie.

Yes, some Bernie supporters will turn and vote for Hillary. Good for them. I can't, and won't.

You people are fucking delusional if you think the United States is somehow going to plunge into chaos at the helm of Hillary Clinton. She has made it very clear, time and time again, that she intends to further Obama's policies, which, although not as progressive as the things Bernie Sanders spouts, are progressive nonetheless.

You and others who think alike consistently make these ill-conceived, convenient excuses to abstain from voting when Hillary gets nominated. You're enthralled by the person that is Bernie, not his ideals, because you wouldn't jeopardize all the progress he calls for by allowing a GOP candidate to take office.

The irony is that you people question our moral compass for choosing Hillary, yet you're content with allowing any of the republican candidates the presidency if it isn't only Bernie and no one else from the democrats, despite the fact that these GOP candidates are some of the most immoral characters in politics today.

You cannot hide behind the facade that you're progressive and are fed up with the current state of politics if you're more than willing to concede the presidency to obstructionists who will set back the country decades given the right of the president to appoint judges and much more.

Politicians aren't going to give a damn about the individual who doesn't go out and vote, who claims that he wants change but is only willing to accept change by several orders of magnitude without ever considering incrementalism. Incrementalism is the only way forward. Rome was not built in a day.

Another thing: Don't blame the way other supporters speak to you for wanting to opt out of voting. I've been noticing this trend in the last week, where Hillary supporters ought to be more kind to Bernie supporters, otherwise they threaten to stay home during the general election or simply vote for Trump out of spite. It's never been explicitly stated, but it's been implied.

I empathize with Bernie and the individuals he caters to - I, too, dislike many things in our country and would like to see faster change. But our reality does not allow for that. Our government was formed on the basis of introducing change incrementally. While I'd gladly accept Bernie's proposals and wish they could be adopted tomorrow, that is just not realistic. It isn't going to happen. Do you really believe that even if Bernie were to get nominated and spearhead the general election and become president, that given the current congress and a multitude of other factors, he'd be able to accomplish such a radical push to the left in one single term and enact all of his policies? Come down to Earth, please.

The reason so many people respond to individuals like yourself who will not vote in the general election with Hillary Clinton is because we want the same change you do, but we're willing to be patient and accept whatever we can get, and we're trying very hard, but have grown frustrated, with explaining to you the importance of simply voting for the next best candidate. You're no more morally superior to us; in fact, I'd argue that the biggest thing that differentiates Bernie and Hillary supporters is naivety, with the former taking that cake entirely.
 
Voting Trump instead of Sanders is a really dumb idea. Sure Trump is anti-establishment, but that doesn't stop many of his policies from being ridiculous. I'm glad that he'll be the Republican candidate, but he shouldn't ever be president of anything other then a business.

Trump's not even really anti-establishment, just anti-political establishment. He's pretty much the ultimate corporate goon.
 
Good job with choosing how you were born! You took some great actions there.

You make some funny assumptions...

I've spent most of my life working $7.25 jobs and loaned my way through college putting my own financial future at risk (TWICE!) to earn the right to make what I do today.

No, I will not vote for Hillary because of the "poor minorities".

I WOULD vote for Sanders because screw how much education costs and he might ACTUALLY do something about college costs so more people can go.

If the masses refuse to vote for Bernie and choose Hillary, I am free to not vote for a lying establishment scumbag and vote for a complete wildcard.
 
It's kinda funny to read that New York Times article about how Repbulicans are in a panic and think that a Trump nomination will completely sink them in the presidential election as well as down-ticket voting. And then you come to NeoGAF and there are a bunch of far left progressives who think the whole thing will be a cakewalk for Trump. Who to trust?
 
It's kinda funny to read that New York Times article about how Repbulicans are in a panic and think that a Trump nomination will completely sink them in the presidential election as well as down-ticket voting. And then you come to NeoGAF and there are a bunch of far left progressives who think the whole thing will be a cakewalk for Trump. Who to trust?

It only seems natural considering Trump is self financed and not toting a party line. He is a wild card that has everyone holding their breath so each side naturally fears the worst.
 
You make some funny assumptions...

I've spent most of my life working $7.25 jobs and loaned my way through college putting my own financial future at risk (TWICE!) to earn the right to make what I do today.

No, I will not vote for Hillary because of the "poor minorities".

I WOULD vote for Sanders because screw how much education costs and he might ACTUALLY do something about college costs so more people can go.

If the masses refuse to vote for Bernie and choose Hillary, I am free to not vote for a lying establishment scumbag and vote for a complete wildcard.

Nothing else needs to be said really.
 
It's kinda funny to read that New York Times article about how Repbulicans are in a panic and think that a Trump nomination will completely sink them in the presidential election as well as down-ticket voting. And then you come to NeoGAF and there are a bunch of far left progressives who think the whole thing will be a cakewalk for Trump. Who to trust?

It only seems natural considering Trump is self financed and not toting a party line. He is a wild card that has everyone holding their breath so each side naturally fears the worst.

Honestly, the Republican party would be in tatters whether or not Trump wins the GE, that's not exactly what they're concerned about.

The reason why people are concerned Trump will win is that Republicans have been setting records at the polls in their primary while dems have had a bad turn out. Then you have Bernie supporters that would no vote or vote Trump added to the mix.
 
You know, it really isn't my problem.

I earned my comfortable life and continue to do so. I will not be shamed into voting for someone I hate.

You didn't earn anything, because you are not an isolated individual.

But feel free to continue to think so. You'll only continue to show publicly unaccountable views when you express yourself.

Do you believe in bootstraps/free will? You have to, I think.
 
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