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Batman v Superman Spoiler Thread: Don't believe everything you read, Son

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Penguin said:
Batman wins in the sense that Superman isn't really trying to fight him.

Almost everything Superman does is defensive.
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How are the special effects on the movie? Because I remember MOS looked great at times and at time it looked like tv budget CGI
 
Schweinehund said:
It'll be interesting if Cap dies and then they go further on and compare how he returns to Superman returning. The difference is I don't think we'll have to wait until 2018 to find out how Superman returns :P.

There is one big difference though:

Civil War sounds like it's not going to have a manipulator like BvS does with Lex. It's pure hero v hero. I don't really care for that shit, not even Batman v Superman because all it does is fragment the fan base. Atleast for DC it's also disappointing because there are a ton of cool villains they can use, and honestly I get the feeling the BvS & Doomsday fight are going to outshine anything Marvel can put on the table at this point.

We all forgetting X-men though.
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Actually...

We don't know that yet, Baron Zemo still hasn't been shown yet, and I worry that he's going to be behind manipulating the Sokovia Accords to have a superhero army working under him. It makes so much sense considering Stark and the team appears to target Bucky, who would be a loose end that HYDRA might want to kill off to ensure that the public doesn't know who's really behind the political shenanigans.

Or, he could just be offscreen'd like Von Strucker was
 
Oh my favorite joke/gag in the movie

Spoilers for late movie fight!

When Batman saves Martha and he's like "I'm a friend of your son"

"I figured with the cape.

Not sure why but made me chuckle
 
Didn't Bats "die" from the fight with Superman? I wouldn't call this a reverse just because it's Superman this time. It's entirely different circumstances, and it wasn't a planned resurrection
 
Ashhong said:
Didn't Bats "die" from the fight with Superman? I wouldn't call this a reverse just because it's Superman this time. It's entirely different circumstances, and it wasn't a planned resurrection
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That's not why it's a reverse. TDKR ends with Clark hearing Bruce's heartbeat. This movie ends with the audience hearing Clark's. I haven't been able to figure out if Bruce or Diana notices the levitating dirt. No one has said.
 
If the SHH post is correct, how does Supes
outlives doomsday's piercing? Those heartbeats described at the end reminded me of how the Extraordinary Gentlemen League ends.
 
Verendus said:
I'll drop my full thoughts on this movie now. This isn't a bit by bit description because it's probably going to be very long as it is, and I'm not going to waste time with that. I just want to talk about what I liked, and didn't like, while it's still somewhat vivid. If you're in this thread, you already know what happens pretty much.

So I thought the movie was great, but it's not without flaws. My impressions will mostly focus on Batman and Superman, because that's what I liked most about the movie. I'll talk about my thoughts on the other characters too, but they're not as interesting barring Lex. Opinions are my own. Should go without saying, but just in case anyone takes issue with my personal feelings about the movie.

I think it was a good idea giving us an older, and more experienced Batman. It's different from what we recently had with Nolan, but at the same time, that difference is both a strength and a weakness. Affleck steals the show in my eyes with a great performance, and a Batman who we get to know quite well in the course of one movie. He clearly has a lighter side in there somewhere, and we do see that, but this interpretation is bound to rub some people the wrong way because he's not a hero like we had in the Nolan movies. This Batman is angry, vehemently against Superman, and while he's not painted as the villain, he is bitter enough that some people might just not like that aspect. He's not a bad person, just a good person who's been pushed a little too far. So not exactly your traditional hero.

We're used to seeing Batman endure, and be that man who can take it all. But the fact is, in this movie, he's not that man. He didn't endure. He was broken. That doesn't mean he became a killer (unless we're going to just nitpick "movie deaths" like we always do) or anything extreme, but he has questionable methods that some people will find doesn't represent him as the hero they're used to. Others will probably just ignore that, and focus on what was great about him. We're taken on a journey with Bruce Wayne from the beginning to the end of this movie in a satisfying way. We're thrown into his shoes, see him watch his family die, then see him watch his employees die. When he witnesses the carnage front and centre, you're able to understand his motivations. He wasn't able to do anything about it, and the movie clearly shows that it's not the first time he's been helpless with some contextual and verbal clues.

It's for that reason his arc is so great. He's very cynical, bitter, yet by the end of the movie, he's beginning to believe, and clearly feels a little guilt at the events that transpired. Probably because he can be a better man, and wasn't. That mistake, and that flaw, is why I like this new Batman. He's human, but he also comes to realize what it means to be a better man, and at the hands of someone else. Cue "It's time you learn what it means to be a man." Learn, indeed.

This brings us to Superman. I'll preface this by saying that Man of Steel was the first time I ever enjoyed Superman as a character. I liked the fact that we finally got a Superman who didn't have it all together. One of my major gripes with Man of Steel was that we weren't allowed to spend enough time with Clark in the present, and this movie rectifies that. It's pretty clear he's developed since that movie, but he's still conflicted about what's happening now that his secret is out in the open. It's not quite what he expected, and rather than being a Superman who knows exactly what's right, he's a Superman who's trying to do his best in the face of this conflict he's presented with. And I like this. We know where this is going, but we're not there just yet. I liked Henry's performance in Man of Steel, but his performance in this movie doesn't really stand out. That doesn't mean it's bad, since I enjoyed his arc which is central to the movie, it's just that the competition is very stiff. He's third to two better performances. I'm happy with the direction the movie goes with him. While Batman steals the show, Superman is still pretty much the centrepiece from a thematic standpoint in this particular movie.

He's the traditional hero. Some people still won't like him because he doesn't necessarily deal with the situation in the best way possible, and that could be a writing flaw rather than a character flaw, but he's clearly still developing, and the situation in the movie puts him on the back foot. He's someone who isn't a person, and he's realizing that his human qualities don't change the fact that he is indeed different from everyone else. This is his conflict. Tying this into Batman's arc was smart, because it allows us and the character to see the two sides of Superman, and the contrast works well by the end of the movie. He's a good person, and while he's not on top of everything, he'll try to do the best he can. And that difference between him and Batman works well in this movie thematically. This movie is great to him from a storytelling standpoint as a character, but it's not kind to him. He suffers, is brought to his knees, is even desperate, and that's uncomfortable. Some will see this as weakness, but I don't. He has strength of character, and I feel that's what's most important in being the best of people. Since that's what he's traditionally represented, I think he gets a moral victory in the end as he was able to overcome it all.

Really, this Bruce and Clark dynamic is set up perfectly. I want to see another movie with just them, and I'd like to see how it's explored with some more nuance and depth. It's the core of this movie, and that contrast between the two characters, and the bittersweet ending with Bruce leaves me wanting more. Some folks might not like that Batman isn't as heroic as we're used to seeing, but at the same time, the dream sequence shows Superman isn't beyond falling into the darkness either. It's really about being pushed too far, but having people who can bring you back or stop you from losing your way.

Clark is the lesser experienced hero, who is clearly good. Batman is more experienced, yet lost his way a little. Then we of course have Wonder Woman, who I assume, is going to be the balancing factor. The one who hasn't lost her way, and has been around much longer. We have our basic dynamic between the three. We just need to start establishing some relationships.

Lex is great. I thought this was the second best performance in the movie, but I'm sure some people will simply not like him because of the actor. He's unhinged which makes each of his scenes interesting because of that larger than life personality. Surprisingly, he's not in the movie as much as you'd think, but he works well when he's there. He's someone who was crazy enough to create Spike-Hulk, despite knowing what that meant, so that makes me wonder where we go next. He's obviously going to get crazier, but I hope they show some of his humanity. Right now, he's a couple of steps removed from Joker, and since Joker is coming soon, I think it needs to be balanced out a little further. What I do hope is that he isn't drawn into an otherworldly plot, unless he's forced to work on the side of Batman and Superman. The tease with him is kind of pointing in the direction of the Man of Chairs, or just general otherworldly threats, so maybe he'll realize he has to put his differences aside at some point, even if only briefly. Then again, he really doesn't like Superman.

The rest of the good elements are as expected. The action sequences are great. The final set piece was the best in the movie. It was nice to see the main man Spike-Hulk evolve and persevere against the odds, but the handicap scenario became too much. The Batman vs. Superman fight is brutal, and unsettling. Batman's highlight solo action sequence is one of the better things I've seen. And all the other little moments are good. It's the best action I've seen in a superhero movie, and does a good job of demonstrating otherworldly power as well as raw superhuman ability. My one complaint here would be that we don't really get to see Superman let loose the way I want to see it. I want him in a physical confrontation where he doesn't hold back, and it's more hand to hand. While he gets some great moments, he's not that. I want that Batman kind of fight but against another superhuman. So, one day The Rock will do this for us all. The true people's champion.

The remaining supporting cast are effective in their roles. Alfred provides a nice balance to Bruce, Lois is good by herself, and Wonder Woman gets her moment in the final fight. Frankly, she's barely a character. She's clearly there as a teaser. I'm sure a lot of people will love her though since she may as well be the Kryptonian from Man of Steel on steroids, but with some more lines. All those jabroni marks who cried about movie destruction will get their wish since they make an effort to point out civilians didn't come in harms way.

Now we move on to what I didn't like, or thought could be improved. I still dislike the Clark and Lois relationship. It felt unearned and poorly developed in Man of Steel, so it falls flat for me here. I just don't care that much. We pick up with them in the midst of it, and they hardly get any real focus, so it's just forgettable. I think it just started wrong, and I'm not sure if it's salvageable for me. I also didn't really care about any of the cameos. Probably because they're cameos.

Structurally, the movie is slightly off. The pacing is mostly pretty good, but there are a few missteps along the way. While the world building and the feeling of there being a much greater world out there is intriguing, and honestly interesting, it also creates a weird tonal shift. We're so focused on the Batman and Superman conflict, and Superman's existence, that receiving these weird ethereal dream/vision sequences and the brief Diana moments is kind of weird. I like the Batman sequence, but this one-two punch scene combo is kind of bizarre. It's like a nice little moment, but difficult to interpret beyond a basic level. It needs tuning. Superman's is also a little out of place. It's cliché, and I'm sure it'll work for some people, but I don't really like seeing these moments in a movie that was otherwise quite focused. This is probably a nitpick, but I think it's a structural flaw that the extended edition will hopefully fix. Maybe by improving the pacing and editing and giving these scenes more time to integrate better. By adding some more detail, and some more scenes that allow the characters to breathe, they could improve the character work further too.

It's a dense movie which means these issues occur. I thought the movie was great because I enjoyed the trio of Batman, Superman, and Lex a lot, so with extra time, maybe they can iron out of some of the structural issues. The writing is clearly better than Man of Steel, and while a little clumsy in one or two places, the landing is solid. I feel the movie nails the ending, and both Batman and Superman's arcs work really well together. Lex is great as the foil, and I'd like to see him again. If anything, I'm interested to see a movie with Batman and Superman, taking on Lex Luthor and Joker. No external world building. Just keep it focused.

That feels like I wrote a lot of rambling. Anyway, favorite scenes:

- Batman going berserker on the jobbers in the warehouse. Because that's how it is. That's what you get.
- Martha advising Superman. I just like their relationship. Thought it was the better than Jonathan's in Man of Steel, and this was a really nice moment here. Must be the old fart in me.
- The ending which brings everything together, and leaves you interested in what may happen next. I mean, it's obvious what happens next, but I mean how.
- The entire opening. I think I liked the soundtrack best here. Because this is where it begins. Where Batman Begins, again.

On a separate note, whether it was the audio or what, some of the lines are honestly difficult to understand in this movie. There are a few moments of mumbling or unclear pronunciation where I wondered what had been said. It's like Bane made his way here somehow, but without the theatricality. Soundtrack was pretty good, but a step down from Man of Steel. No amazing Batman theme so I hope they fix that. I don't think that's a huge deal, but a great soundtrack does enhance a movie. Interstellar and Mad Max being two recent fantastic examples of that.

Also, Baleman is still the best Batman. And you can balee dat. The hero we need, and the hero we deserved. We'll see how Beastman goes, but he could end up better. It's a great start at least.

I can finally move on. I truly ready for you now, Apocalypse.
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I just wanted to quote and repost this. I really REALLY appreciated your thoughts about the movie. It's so refreshing to read something that doesn't feel too fan boyish and reads like it's from someone who has a good grasp of understanding story structure, films, and writing in general. You weren't ranting, thoughts were well constructed, and your perspective was clear. I loved MoS and plan to keep an open mind. Bummer about the score being weaker. The MoS score was one of the first things that grabbed me before. Thanks for typing all of that. It was absolutely NOT TLDR.
 
Notice any minor easter eggs like a Coast City or Fawcett city reference?

MegaManTrigger said:
Actually...

We don't know that yet, Baron Zemo still hasn't been shown yet, and I worry that he's going to be behind manipulating the Sokovia Accords to have a superhero army working under him. It makes so much sense considering Stark and the team appears to target Bucky, who would be a loose end that HYDRA might want to kill off to ensure that the public doesn't know who's really behind the political shenanigans.

Or, he could just be offscreen'd like Von Strucker was
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Dunno if you missed the post, but here was the link that defines
Zemo's role
officially.
 
Schweinehund said:
Nop.

We might get some Shazam references in JL, but the Rock isn't going to be in JL unless they add him in reshoots or something, as his schedule is back to back.
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Can you imagine Rock , Cavill, Affleck etcc in one movie duking it out?
 
Poodlestrike said:
Yeah, after BvS it goes:

-Suicide Squad (August?)
-Wonder Woman (Spring/Summer)
-JL 1 (Summer or later)
-Aquaman (not sure)
-Flash (same)
-JL 2 (same)

Real talk, still can't quite believe they're following up Batman v. Superman with fucking Suicide Squad.
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It lets them set a varied tone, but also potentially further sets up the next solo Batman movie by fleshing his and Joker's history.
 
Schweinehund said:
fff Batman wouldn't last 2 seconds against Black Adam :P.

It would be cool to see Superman make a cameo in Shazam film, and Billy and him both fight Black Adam like the animated film.
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Ooohhh that will be so cool. They have not cast anyone for Billy yet right? Lol it does not matter though. People will root for the Rock irrespective of whether he is a hero or Villain. I think he should have been Billy.
 
The Icon said:
That's not why it's a reverse. TDKR ends with Clark hearing Bruce's heartbeat. This movie ends with the audience hearing Clark's. I haven't been able to figure out if Bruce or Diana notices the levitating dirt. No one has said.
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No I get that too, but I mean, the circumstances around it is completely different. I guess if he meant the "last scene" is a reverse, then sure, but not the entire ending imo
 
Not only is this movie gonna have to deal with the comparisons to Civil War once that's out, but I guarantee someone's going to write a thinkpiece on how emotionally hollow this film is compared to the Iron Giant, whose ending it will be accused of shamelessly ripping off. "For years people have said Iron Giant was the best Superman movie, and now this Superman movie tries to do it with Superman, and guess what: Zack Snyder is a meathead idiot who can't even beat a cartoon at being a Superman movie, and he's actually got Superman! Bharlarha harlaha halrhg"

Something like that.

Watch.

I know i just posted in the RT prediction thread that trying to predict an aggregate score of HUNDREDS of film critics is a weird game I can't wrap my head around, but something THIS specific? I dunno. We had a writer today get clickbait bronze for writing about how the movie got Superman wrong without having even seen it yet. I feel like one of these too clever for their own good bloggers has this hot take just waiting to go.
 
Nah, I don't think anyone would bring up the iron giant except in the standard assertion that it's "the best superman movie."

You're more likely to get a think piece on how the death of superman story has been an albatross around the neck of the superman mythos since it came out, and how the fact that it still crops up as the character's defining moment has kept the property in a state of limbo.
 
The Iron Giant perspective is interesting. We would see the same stuff comparing Fantastic Four with The Incredibles too, except, well, they've never made a good Fantastic Four movie yet. :P
 
Penguin said:
Batman wins in the sense that Superman isn't really trying to fight him.

Almost everything Superman does is defensive.
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I am uninterested in watching the movie so could u sell me on it so i could wqtch it with my brothers this weekend?
Edit: fyi i am a supes fan at least in the comics
 
Tizoc said:
I am uninterested in watching the movie so could u sell me on it so i could wqtch it with my brothers this weekend?
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It will probably have some cool action scenes featuring iconic super heroes.

Plus you will probably see Superman get that work.
 
Ashhong said:
Doesn't "get that work" mean something good?
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No it means that he will get whooped. He will get what's coming to him for all that destruction and Zod neck snapping.

And no I am not one of those MoS destruction marks. But I always enjoy myself when Superman gets whooped for some reason. It's like when the best sports team gets beat by a lesser team, you just can't help but feel good about it.
 
Dahbomb said:
No it means that he will get whooped. He will get what's coming to him for all that destruction and Zod neck snapping.

And no I am not one of those MoS destruction marks. But I always enjoy myself when Superman gets whooped for some reason. It's like when the best sports team gets beat by a lesser team, you just can't help but feel good about it.
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But judging by boxoffice draw, Superman -is- the lesser team. :)
 
Dahbomb said:
No it means that he will get whooped. He will get what's coming to him for all that destruction and Zod neck snapping.

And no I am not one of those MoS destruction marks. But I always enjoy myself when Superman gets whooped for some reason. It's like when the best sports team gets beat by a lesser team, you just can't help but feel good about it.
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Huh, I thought that is just "Superman will get worked", but "get that work" sounds like a good term to me lol. You kids and your slang these days.

Besides it sounds like, even though he gets worked, he is kind of in the right the whole movie, and Batman realizes the error of his ways after Superman's sacrifice.
 
Tizoc said:
Eh that's not appealing to me xp
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You should be specific in what interests you.

It's a blockbuster comic book superhero action movie, you will pretty much get what you expect. Based on pedigree and footage shown the action should at least be solid enough that you can have a good time at the theater with your bros. It also looks visually nice, probably sounds nice too.

If you care even a little but about these characters than you should probably watch it. This is WW's first movie debut, that's a pretty big seller right there for people who like that character.


As to why I am interested in it... I personally love the concept of how they are setting up the initial Batman and Superman confrontation. They are both good guys but Batman is only human and he sees Superman involved in a large scale catastrophe. It's the classic David vs Goliath story only if they were both good guys. We also haven't seen such big super heroes clash against other being sold as a major plot point of the movie before.

From all accounts though they seemed to have delivered on this. I am very skeptical on the Dawn of Justice part of the movie and final act of the movie though.
 
GringoSuave89 said:
I feel like his being credited is more Hollywood formality/courtesy than it is an actual role.
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Well he probably wrote the outline and general script. But every single cast member has been saying that "Terrio has written an amazing script" so that has to mean something.
 
Ashhong said:
Well he probably wrote the outline and general script. But every single cast member has been saying that "Terrio has written an amazing script" so that has to mean something.
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It's the same deal as Prometheus basically. Goyer created BvS with Snyder originally, and had a script/outline/draft/whatever. By the time the movie actually went into production though, Terrio was brought on to do a full rewrite and work directly with Snyder for the shooting script. Saying Goyer had no part or influence in the writing of BvS is flat out wrong, but we can be glad he wasn't the final writer in the chair. :P
 
duckroll said:
It's the same deal as Prometheus basically. Goyer created BvS with Snyder originally, and had a script/outline/draft/whatever. By the time the movie actually went into production though, Terrio was brought on to do a full rewrite and work directly with Snyder for the shooting script. Saying Goyer had no part or influence in the writing of BvS is flat out wrong, but we can be glad he wasn't the final writer in the chair. :P
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Only difference being, weren't people preferring the original script (by...Spaights? Is that his name?)? May God help us if Goyers draft is released and is better than this
 
Ashhong said:
Only difference being, weren't people preferring the original script (by...Spaights? Is that his name?)? May God help us if Goyers draft is released and is better than this
Click to expand...

What are the differences?
 
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