Support NeoGAF

[rec0ded1]

So watching Batman v Superman, it's so disappointing because the director doesn't "get" the characters. You can call them whatever you like, you can put them in familiar costumes, you can give them awesome super-powers and amazing abilities...

But it's not a costume, not a superpower, and not a title that made Steve Rogers a real hero. It was the person he was before any of that ever came along and it was his refusal to compromise those values and stand up to even his allies that continues to make him my favorite hero in the MCU.

Since I'll probably never get a good Superman movie in my lifetime, Cinematic Cap is currently my surrogate supes. Does so much heroic shit in winter soldier and all his movies that puts MoS and BvS to shame.

 

[Liquidsnake]

Y'all have turned a DC thread into a Marvel thread. lol..

I assumed that was th goal of every DC thread on GAF.

 

[Saint Gregory]

I don't know why I did this to myself but since I got denied in my attempt to see BvS last night I decided to watch MoS again this afternoon so I could have it fresh on my mind. I feel like I shouldn't have now, god what a frustrating movie to watch. Every time I see it I realize a new glaring issue that never should have been there.

There are so many things that are done well with the characters, the acting and even the script but the cringe worthy moments are so lasting that they burn into your retinas. I really think the foundation of the problems, and I say this as much as I enjoyed Costner's performance, is the decision to make Jon Kent a nihilist. His absolutist attitude and complete lack of faith in humanity poisons Snyder's Superman from the start. In the middle of the film Clark actually says that he doesn't trust humanity any more than he trusts Zod.

I just wish I understood what is going on in Zack Snyder's mind that would make him create such a cynical take on Superman. Watching MoS again has actually made me more negative going into seeing BvS than the reviews have.

 

[jelly]

What was the last superhero film where the third act was the best?

I can't think of any now. Maybe Avengers 1?

Batman 1989. Begins was okay except the monorail nonsense bar the I don't have to save you.

It's what I dislike about pretty much all of them. Winter Soldier was really good until the video game waypoints of similar tasks. Yawn. Avengers was saved by the Hulk but had that absolutely dire start the turbine scene and has nobody got a gun except the death pea shooter with Nick Fury on the bridge.

 

[echoshifting]

I don't know why I did this to myself but since I got denied in my attempt to see BvS last night I decided to watch MoS again this afternoon so I could have it fresh on my mind. I feel like I shouldn't have now, god what a frustrating movie to watch. Every time I see it I realize a new glaring issue that never should have been there.

There are so many things that are done well with the characters, the acting and even the script but the cringe worthy moments are so lasting that they burn into your retinas. I really think the foundation of the problems, and I say this as much as I enjoyed Costner's performance, is the decision to make Jon Kent a nihilist. His absolutist attitude and complete lack of faith in humanity poisons Snyder's Superman from the start. In the middle of the film Clark actually says that he doesn't trust humanity any more than he trusts Zod.

I just wish I understood what is going on in Zack Snyder's mind that would make him create such a cynical take on Superman. Watching MoS again has actually made me more negative going into seeing BvS than the reviews have.

Well, now that we know Zack Snyder is an objectivist, it makes a whole lot more sense to me the way Pa Kent was characterized and, as you say, poisons the well.

 

[inky]

It's not though. He was raised by parents who didn't know what to do with him. If he should let his friends drown. His mom tells him he doesn't owe this world a damn thing. That's the Superman that exists in these movies, like it or not.

His parents tell him one thing, and he's conflicted, but he also makes his choice. And the whole point is that he is meant to stand above those ideas. Well, "was".

The movie SHOWS us this: he discusses with him if he should risk showing himself to save some kids in a flashback with his dad, but we already saw him make that decision in the future in the oil rig yet again. But it does it in a clumsy way. Just as clumsily, he expresses overwhelming regret at what he had to do (kill) to stop an enemy, but it conflicts with many other of his actions.

So sure, you can make a Superman who carries that insecurity every second, who doesn't represent these timeless morality standards, just don't be too surprised if people reject this idea of the character, especially when it doesn't seem to be any coherent point to it.

 

[Shredderi]

Just came home after seeing the film, and yeah it was disappointing. Not offensively bad, entertaining and all but I expected a lot more from this.

 

[gamz]

I don't know why I did this to myself but since I got denied in my attempt to see BvS last night I decided to watch MoS again this afternoon so I could have it fresh on my mind. I feel like I shouldn't have now, god what a frustrating movie to watch. Every time I see it I realize a new glaring issue that never should have been there.

There are so many things that are done well with the characters, the acting and even the script but the cringe worthy moments are so lasting that they burn into your retinas. I really think the foundation of the problems, and I say this as much as I enjoyed Costner's performance, is the decision to make Jon Kent a nihilist. His absolutist attitude and complete lack of faith in humanity poisons Snyder's Superman from the start. In the middle of the film Clark actually says that he doesn't trust humanity any more than he trusts Zod.

I just wish I understood what is going on in Zack Snyder's mind that would make him create such a cynical take on Superman. Watching MoS again has actually made me more negative going into seeing BvS than the reviews have.

Well, they are form Kansas.

 

[Bronx-Man]

It's always been a Marvel thread

Who do you think paid for that score

All according to keikaku

 

[Jack Remington]

Most unrealistic part of the whole movie was a Democratic senator from Kentucky.

 

[Staf]

Since I'll probably never get a good Superman movie in my lifetime, Cinematic Cap is currently my surrogate supes. Does so much heroic shit in winter soldier and all his movies that puts MoS and BvS to shame.

#MySuperman

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It's always been a Marvel thread

Who do you think paid for that score

<standing ovation>

 

[illmatic22]

Look at all this love for the Star Spangled Man with a Plan. Bless you GAF.

Y'all have turned a DC thread into a Marvel thread. lol..

It's a straight up geek thread.

 

[Jarmel]

Saw it last night. Honestly there isn't anything I can say that hasn't already been said.

This was two completely separate movies jammed together to create this piece of shit.

I'm surprised though that people aren't talking about how godawful the soundtrack is.

 

[Garlador]

It's not though. He was raised by parents who didn't know what to do with him. If he should let his friends drown. His mom tells him he doesn't owe this world a damn thing. That's the Superman that exists in these movies, like it or not.

And I don't like it.

Because not only is that a fundamental misunderstanding of Superman, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of his PARENTS too. Pa and Ma Kent were the ones that made Superman the hero that he grew up to be, who instilled in him the values necessary to be the best person he could possibly be.

They were a far cry from "let kids drown" and "you don't owe this world a thing" in the new universe.

And that's INFURIATING to me, because Superman was supposed to be a hero, not because he HAD to be, but because he WANTED to be. He didn't need some childhood trauma like Batman or the death of a parent or loved one to spur him into action. His family was always the ones that guided him towards being a hero long before he even knew he had powers.

That was the point of him being raised in Smallville, Kansas and not being just a guy from New York. That was the reason that stories like Red Son showed what would happen if Superman was raised by any other couple. The whole POINT of Superman is that he was a boy with godlike powers who had the good fortune of being steer correctly by the absolute best mother and father you could find, two of the most humble and noble people on earth.

You take away what makes Pa and Ma Kent the people they are, the idealists and the optimists, and you take away what makes Superman "Superman".

I remain unbelievably angry at what Zack Snyder did with the Kents, because I also refuse to believe this age of cynicism and bitterness should extend to the Kents and to Superman. I know people just like them in my own life, so I absolutely refuse to believe that altering them, and their son, beyond all moral recognition was the only way to "modernize" them.

 

[Jack Remington]

So one of these threads needs a poll. Just a "Did you like BvS, Y/N?" poll.

I feel like I'm seeing a decent number of people come into these threads to say they liked it, but most of them peace out after that one post. Meanwhile a lot of the people who hate it make like 100 posts each (bananafactory, cough).

This could just be confirmation bias though. Hence why we need a poll. We need hard data.

Duckroll, Ghaelon, somebody? Be the hero GAF deserves?

 

[okdakor]

OK, I've endured Batman v Superman... And I'm now a critic too, that movie wasn't for me.
So many "wat" moments, so joyless...

I miss Christopher Reeve's smile.

Batffleck was ok, I'd be ok for a solo movie with him and Irons.
Curious about the WW movie, but not so sure about justice league...

Spoiler

Lex creates the logos ? Flash destroys the shop when stopping a robbery ? Aquaman looking like he holds his breath underwater ?

Snyder and Eisenberg need to leave the DCU, pls...

Spoiler

And Superman didn't even have to die... All he had to do was bringing the spear to the battlefield, WW was doing ok vs Doomsday, she could have killed him with it.

I don't think the casual moviegoer would want to see it twice, this movie won't have legs.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

I saw it yesterday. The more I think about it the more I think it delivers the bare minimum you'd expect from a Batman vs. Superman movie, and absolutely nothing more.

Snyder brings some visual flair to the more fantastical sequences--although I think the desaturated, grainy, underlit look is drearily unattractive for much of its uneventful first 100 minutes.

But so much of it is either incoherent, unearned, uninteresting or some combination of all three. The actual throwdown is pretty cool just due to the inherent coolness of it actually happening on screen, but there's nothing creative about it beyond what pretty much anyone would imagine for a Batman/Superman fight. The same is doubly--er, triply--so for the final segment, not to mention that blowing that particular wad of a storyline so soon is absolutely baffling.

Wonder Woman's entrance was legit hype, especially with her theme music kicking in. Speaking of score themes, I'm surprised Eisenberg didn't collapse on screen from the weight of his own. Talk about a mismatch.

Overall, it's not anything like a crash-at-launch disaster like the Green Lantern movie, but you could have given this idea to literally any professional working director and come out with an equal or better movie, give or take a nicely composed shot.

In baseball sabremetric terms, it's a replacement level Batman v Superman movie.

 

[echoshifting]

So one of these threads needs a poll. Just a "Did you like BvS, Y/N?" poll.

I feel like I'm seeing a decent number of people come into these threads to say they liked it, but most of them peace out after that one post. Meanwhile a lot of the people who hate it make like 100 posts each (bananafactory, cough).

This could just be confirmation bias though. Hence why we need a poll. We need hard data.

Duckroll, Ghaelon, somebody? Be the hero GAF deserves?

Asking for a poll on gaf is like making a wish with a monkey's paw, Jack.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

The Winter Soldier is the best MCU film followed by The First Avenger.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

It's not though. He was raised by parents who didn't know what to do with him. If he should let his friends drown. His mom tells him he doesn't owe this world a damn thing. That's the Superman that exists in these movies, like it or not.

Obviously, and that's why it's a shitty version of Superman.

I'm talking about where he's supposed to get those timeless ideals from, not what the hacks who made Man of Steel decided to do.

And I don't like it.

Because not only is that a fundamental misunderstanding of Superman, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of his PARENTS too. Pa and Ma Kent were the ones that made Superman the hero that he grew up to be, who instilled in him the values necessary to be the best person he could possible be.

They were a far cry from "let kids drown" and "you don't owe this world a thing" in the new universe.

And that's INFURIATING to me, because Superman was supposed to be a hero, not because he HAD to be, but because he WANTED to be. He didn't need some childhood trauma like Batman or the death of a parent or loved one to spur him into action. His family was always the ones that guided him towards being a hero long before he even knew he had powers.



That was the point of him being raised in Smallville, Kansas and not being just a guy from New York. That was the reason that stories like Red Son showed what would happen if Superman was raised by any other couple. The whole POINT of Superman is that he was a boy with godlike parents who had the good fortune of being steer correctly by the absolute best mother and father you could find, two of the most humble and noble people on earth.

You take away what makes Pa and Ma Kent the people they are, the idealists and the optimists, and you take away what makes Superman "Superman".

I remain unbelievably angry at what Zack Snyder did with the Kents, because I also refuse to believe this age of cynicism and bitterness should extend to the Kents and to Superman. I know people just like them in my own life, so I absolutely refuse to believe that altering them, and their son, beyond all moral recognition was the only way to "modernize" them.

BOOM. Thank you.

This really brings my issues with MoS to the forefront. Not only did they mangle Clark, they mangled his parents as well.

Ugh.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

It's always been a Marvel thread

Who do you think paid for that score

It was about clapping etiquette for a solid 10 pages.

lol..true.

When this thread was thriving you could make a drinking game out of how many times people defending the movie compared it to Thor 2, mind.

Also true..

I assumed that was th goal of every DC thread on GAF.

I hear that a lot.

Most unrealistic part of the whole movie was a Democratic senator from Kentucky.

lol..Better than a talking turtle tho.

 

[Toa TAK]

What if this movie is just a really bad dream?

 

[Piku_Ringo]

Pay me a plane ticket, as well as kost and logis and I will personally throw a glove in his face.

Guess I'm gonna have to go start a Go Fund Me campaign to finance this ass whupping.
On the plus side, I'm sure there are thousands of disappointed movie goers who'd be willing to fund it.

 

[echoshifting]

What if this movie is just a really bad dream?

A knightmare?

....sorry

 

[DoctorFling]

Wait there are other people that think First Avenger is a great movie.

I'M NOT ALONE?

It's a very good origin story, it's almost a shame they had to tie it up to The Avenger so quickly though. WW2 adventures are the best adventures.

 

[Jack Remington]

I saw it yesterday. The more I think about it the more I think it delivers the bare minimum you'd expect from a Batman vs. Superman movie, and absolutely nothing more.

Snyder brings some visual flair to the more fantastical sequences--although I think the desaturated, grainy, underlit look is drearily unattractive for much of its uneventful first 100 minutes.

But so much of it is either incoherent, unearned, uninteresting or some combination of all three. The actual throwdown is pretty cool just due to the inherent coolness of it actually happening on screen, but there's nothing creative about it beyond what pretty much anyone would imagine for a Batman/Superman fight. The same is doubly--er, triply--so for the final segment, not to mention that blowing that particular wad of a storyline so soon is absolutely baffling.

Wonder Woman's entrance was legit hype, especially with her theme music kicking in. Speaking of score themes, I'm surprised Eisenberg didn't collapse on screen from the weight of his own. Talk about a mismatch.

Overall, it's not anything like a crash-at-launch disaster like the Green Lantern movie, but you could have given this idea to literally any professional working director and come out with an equal or better movie, give or take a nicely composed shot.

In baseball sabremetric terms, it's a replacement level Batman v Superman movie.

Yeah, but not just a player who is average in every category. It's like a player who is great at a few things and bad at everything else. Like a player who can hit 450 foot homers, but is near the top of the league in strikeouts and only has about a .300 OBP. And he has a cannon for an arm in the outfield, but has trouble reading fly balls in the air.

 

[No Love]

What if this movie is just a really bad dream?

A nightmare for you, a sweet dream to Zack.

 

[MMarston]

The Winter Soldier is the best MCU film followed by The First Avenger.

This is true

 

[inky]

Is that a standing ovation? I mean, I don't see anyone standing, I sort of see an ovation, but it looks like a standing ovation to me. I'm calling it. Standing ovation.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Has any other film had more dream sequences that was not explicitly about dreaming?

 

[Strangelove77]

"Batman V Superman"
-A Zack Snyder Knightmare

 

[Androidsleeps]

It's crazy that we're gonna have this craziness of posts/threads 3 more times this year. CW, SS and SW.

 

[Garlador]

Has any other film had more dream sequences that was not explicitly about dreaming?

Sucker Punch?

 

[kswiston]

It's crazy that we're gonna have this craziness of posts/threads 3 more times this year. CW, SS and SW.

SW?

 

[Alienous]

OK, I've endured Batman v Superman... And I'm now a critic too, that movie wasn't for me.
So many "wat" moments, so joyless...

Spoiler

Aquaman looking like he holds his breath underwater ?

lmao.

 

[Houndi101]

SW?

Rogue One

 

[echoshifting]

SW?

Rogue One

 

[Herbs]

Sucker Punch?

so... Zach Snyder is a sexually abused babydoll in an asylum and this is his fevered dream? It all makes sense now.

 

[Zero-ELEC]

So, am I missing any thread titles?

Batman v. Superman Review Thread
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 39% and climbing!)
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 42% and climbing!)
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 40% and fluctuating)
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 39% and fluctuating)
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 38% and getting farther behind Batman Forever)
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 37% but it's still higher than Batman and Robin)
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 35% almost as good as Prince Of Persia)
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 35% almost as good as Rise of the Silver Surfer)
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 35% dead heat with The Room, oh hi Tommy)
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 35%, officially better than Gangster Squad!!!)
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 37%, it's Mars Needs Moms good )
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 37%, hey it's better than the Entourage movie)
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 37%, a real Sucker Punch to fan expectations)
Batman v. Superman Review Thread (RT 36%, it's Rear Window remake all over again)
Batman v. Superman RT Thread (37%, Blue Chips got 37%? fanboys were right, RT=trash)
Batman v. Superman RT Thread (37%, as good as Young Einstein; why so yahoo serious?)
Batman v. Superman RT Thread (36%, only 20% lower than Man of Steel)
Batman v. Superman RT Thread (40%) [no spoilers]
Batman v. Superman RT Thread (39%, falling like a Metropolis skyscraper) [no spoilz]
Batman v. Superman RT Thread (Don't even ask%) [no spoilz]
Batman v. Superman RT Thread (Don't even ask% but it's same as Space Chimps)
Batman v. Superman RT Thread: Almost as good as Paul Blart: Mall Cop
Batman v. Superman RT Thread: "Good morning! How much does that weigh?", "Ham!"
Batman v. Superman RT Thread: Between Two Paul Blarts with Zach Snyder
Batman v. Superman RT Thread: We're all critics now
Batman v. Superman RT Thread: 29% and climbing!
Batman v. Superman RT Thread: like standing ovations in rain

Spoiler

I love the fact that at some point it stopped being a review thread and became a Rotten Tomatoes thread.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Obviously, and that's why it's a shitty version of Superman.

I'm talking about where he's supposed to get those timeless ideals from, not what the hacks who made Man of Steel decided to do.

BOOM. Thank you.

This really brings my issues with MoS to the forefront. Not only did they mangle Clark, they mangled his parents as well.

Ugh.

It's strange but I didn't fully realize how bad this issue was until this last viewing of MoS. The decision to change the way Pa Kent dies was where my first viewing of the film really started to go off the rails but it's really obvious now that the Kents were badly conceptualized and it was impossible to not end up with this Superman as a result.

The Kents didn't hide Clark from the world because they thought it would hurt him or cause the collapse of society, they did it because they loved him and were afraid they'd lose him if the truth about his origins were known. Their only concern was to raise a good son, not an alien or a Superhero.

Where would a farmer even get the ideas that Pa Kent has in the Snyderverse? Is he studying Nietzsche in between harvests?

 

[Imperfected]

I am assuming that this is the first time a RT review thread has had more posts than the two official OTs of a big film combined.

I mean, maybe if the movie itself were as interesting as the conversations about how desperately a large number of people want it to be interesting...

 

[richiek]

That was the moment for my best friend. I don't know what it was about that, if it was how instantly selfless and brave he was or what, but that moment was when she knew Cap was her guy in the MCU.

She also loved Superman after I got her to watch the animated version of All-Star. She's raging across facebook about BvS as I type this, lol.

It makes me sad we will never see this version of Superman in the DCEU.

 

[echoshifting]

Where would a farmer even get the ideas that Pa Kent has in the Snyderverse? Is he studying Nietzsche in between harvests?

No, he's reading the Fountainhead

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Well, I just got out and that has to be most perplexing/interesting pieces of garbage I have ever seen.As some critics have said, it beats you down until you start begging for it to be over.It's quite an accomplishment to snuff out the heroism in this characters and ultimately make me hate them. It truly is the worst movie I have ever seen.

 

[call_kotaku]

Where would a farmer even get the ideas that Pa Kent has in the Snyderverse? Is he studying Nietzsche in between harvests?

Hey don't generalize Kansas, not everyone there is backwards and uneducated

Spoiler

most of them are

Besides, Luke had shitty parents in Star Wars and I don't see any fans complaining

 

[Timu]

Ok, we're at 250 reviews now, 75 fresh, 175 rotten with 30% possibly being the final grade.

Also, 75!!!

 

[echoshifting]

Well, I just got out and that has to be most perplexing/interesting pieces of garbage I have ever seen.As some critics have said, it beats you down until you start begging for it to be over.It's quite an accomplishment to snuff out the heroism in this characters and ultimately make me hate them. It truly is the worst movie I have ever seen.

Talking me back into it!

Monday is the soonest I can see it and I honestly have no idea where I'll land right now. Half the time it sounds like a fascinating mess and half the time it sounds like something that will have me in a rage for days

 

[orthodoxy1095]

It's strange but I didn't fully realize how bad this issue was until this last viewing of MoS. The decision to change the way Pa Kent dies was where my first viewing of the film really started to go off the rails but it's really obvious now that the Kents were badly conceptualized and it was impossible to not end up with this Superman as a result.

The Kents didn't hide Clark from the world because they thought it would hurt him or cause the collapse of society, they did it because they loved him and were afraid they'd lose him if the truth about his origins were known. Their only concern was to raise a good son, not an alien or a Superhero.

Where would a farmer even get the ideas that Pa Kent has in the Snyderverse? Is he studying Nietzsche in between harvests?

Yeah, I actually hadn't thought about it too much before this thread honestly, and the more people bring up the Kents, the more it becomes clear that this was the Superman that had to exist with the Kents they dreamt up.

A real shame.

No, he's reading the Fountainhead

lol

 

[NotLiquid]

What was the last superhero film where the third act was the best?

I can't think of any now. Maybe Avengers 1?

Ant-Man.

It's one of the few recent super hero movies I can think of where the build-up towards the third act is entirely on account of the character's own agency and ingenuity. In movies like Iron Man, Cap and The Avengers the characters are by and large fighting an obligatory endgame that they're only treasured for due to their power features - but Ant-Man is one of the few movies where the characters' gifted ingenuity is what's pushing the third act and the heist, where Scott needs a whole bunch of other people to be able to back him up while his own heist experience is what allows him to know how getting in is going to work. It sets up early on in the movie how he's naturally good at what he does while him getting the ability to shrink is only a natural extension and tool for him to use in the final act. Then it ends in a trippy descent into the absolute nether.

Incidentally it's this valuing of the character's innate abilities that makes the movie better than Iron Man 1 and also why Iron Man 3 is secretly the best Iron Man movie.