Batman v Superman Spoiler Thread: Don't believe everything you read, Son

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Watched it last night... and wow... as just a general non-comic thumping fan of Batman and Superman... I don't know what the fuck to say.

It's not the abortion critics described but it's not good.

It's so hard to describe how I feel about it. The parts that I like, I really like. Batman/Bruce Wayne, and Alfred... Great. The most Batman-ass Batman I've seen. I need a solo Batfleck film now. He nailed it. Wonder Woman didn't have a lot to do but I enjoyed her. The fight between Batman and Superman was pretty rad when it finally happened. Say what you want about Snyder but the dude can make a fight scene look rad.

But everything else is just a fucking mess. I know everyone said pacing and flow were the biggest problems and goddamn if that didn't hit the nail on head. I wouldn't say that I had trouble following it but it's just so damn jarring the way one scene jumps to the next. I don't know if that's the script, editing/directing, studio notes/interference but FUCK... This is shit is all over the place. I felt like I was watching 3 or 4 different movies. Not one scene flowed into the next.

The other problems were whatever the fuck Jesse Eisenberg was doing. I don't know who told him that shit was okay but they fucked up.

And fucking Doomsday... that stupid cave troll looking asshole. I almost got past the look for a bit because it's just Doomsday... He's just a reason for the 3 of them to get together. Does it really matter if he's not covered in spikes and bones and shit? But then when WW lopped off his hand and that dumb ass bone-spear thing started to grow... Fuck you. That's just fucking stupid. Fuck you. I checked right out after that.

This movie is like someone took 4 different puzzles and smashed them all together. By sheer luck some parts of it almost come together and you think you can kind of make out a picture but then rest is just a pile of fucking incoherent and inconsistent bullshit.

I feel like amid all the... stuff... that there's a decent movie in there somewhere. Maybe it will take a fan edit, or that extended cut they keep talking up... but it ain't here. I'm still willing to see what happens with Justice League but something needs to change. I honestly don't know if it's Snyder... Goyer... Terrio... WB suits... but someone fucked up and needs to fall on their sword for this shit.

It just makes me mad. Not as a fan of Batman or Superman, but just as someone who likes coherent things. I honestly don't know what I'd say if someone asked me whether or not they should watch it.
 
I think my rating of this film would have gone up by at least two points if it had Hearts on Fire and ended with More Than a Feeling as soundtrack selections.
 
I liked it. Broken as fuck Batman is the best Batman adaption so far. Loved how he didn't had the time to care about not killing evil goons, so he just did it.

The middle dragged on a bit, but overall the movie is pretty enjoyable for what it wants to be.
Wonder Woman was forced into this to kickstart Justice League, but at least had some good fight scenes with Doomsday.
 
Okay, so I talked a lot about how Batman is an awful character, but I've left Superman's character arc alone for a bit. Lets fix that.

Ever since Man of Steel came out, I've heard one general idea repeated endlessly: That Zack Snyder focus's more on the super part than the man. He'd rather look at what Superman is as an idea or symbol or god than as a person.

This is double-downed on HARD in BvS, and not only is it to the film's detriment, it's in many ways the source of all the film's problems.

The central conceit of the film is that while Superman goes around saving people, he doesn't actually connect with them. He grabs a space prob, and then lays it down, and people are stretching their hands to touch his body.

giphy.gif


The guy isn't even looking at them, let alone talking to them. He's acting as alienating, in every sense of the word, as possible. Which isn't to say that that makes the media's reaction intelligent or rational, but he's not helping matters when he's so distant that he can't bring himself to talk to the people he's going out of his way to save.

And then there's Lex's whole thing. His entire motivation is him projecting his hangups about God onto Superman. But at no point does Superman go "Hey, dipstick, can you stop with this God association bullshit? I'm not God. I'm never claimed to be God. Having powers doesn't make me God. I'm not all powerful. I'm just trying to help people out."

This makes no sense in the wake of even Man of Steel. There, he gave himself over to the military, saved then, and at the end, he even enjoyed a good back and forth with the army general about taking down the drones. If he can get someone to trust him, even insomuch as that a fucking general feels comfortable bitching openly to Superman's face for breaking their toy, then why stop that? Why is his first attempt to communicate with people something as formal and cold as a senator committee meeting? Why doesn't he talk to the people who are literally worshiping him so they can get a sense that he's not as different from them as he thinks? Explain that your from Kansas, that you grew up on a farm, that you have a girlfriend. You know, human stuff. When he begs Batman to save his mother, as stupid as that scene is, it's the first time that he has a human conversation with someone outside of Lois, and guess what? Batman is overcome with such empathy that he immediately switches from wanting to kill Superman's BFF ("Hi, Mrs. Kent. I'm a friend of you son.").

And how does this whole character arc conclude? "The world honored him the only way they knew how. A soldier." What the fuck, Superman wasn't a soldier! Not remotely! You don't bury citizens who die trying to save others like military. It speaks volumes as to how poorly they knew Superman that when they finally turn around on his public image, they go "Uh, how do be bury him" "Idk, as a soldier I guess?" The world image turned around on Superman from evil to good, but they never actually connected with him, never understood him as a person.

This problem can do nothing but exasperate itself when superman comes back. You think he's worshiped as a god now, wait until he fucking rises again, bonus points if it only takes 3 days.

Fuck this movie, goddamn.
 
Dead said:
When does Batman ever even use a gun outside out of the Knightmare sequence? We just making shit up?

A launcher for smoke grenades sure as fuck isn't the same
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He mowed down several men in technicals using the Bat-wing, he shot the flamethrower tank on the man holding Martha Hostage and he used a car full of guys as a wrecking ball as he dragged them behind the Bat-mobile. The men in that car were most likely pudding after that.
 
duckroll said:
I want to point out something really funny about Snyder's vision of parenting in the DC films. It was something I mentioned in the DC Community Thread the other day about how Pa Kent's "maybe" response to "what should I have done, just let them die?" in Man of Steel. It bothered me because while it might have been a human moment of weakness for Pa Kent, just having that in the movie says something, and it's not positive.

Now in BvS, we have Batman saying some pretty amazing shit about HIS parents. First, to justify his suicidal crusade against Superman, he reminds Alfred that his father taught him that the first generation of Waynes weren't industrialists, they were HUNTERS. Okay, that's actually a pretty good scene on its own, but the funny part is how it leads into what he says later when he's really fucking Superman up. YOU KNOW WHAT MY PARENTS TAUGHT ME? DIE IN A GUTTER FOR NO REASON AT ALL. IF YOU WANT TO MAKE SENSE OF THE WORLD, YOU HAVE TO FORCE IT TO. He might just be saying this out of a moment of rage, but to say that about his parents who he loved so much, that they taught him nothing positive about self worth... that's pretty amazing.
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You want to explore it further? How did lexs fathers lessons affect him? He was so scheming and machiavellian that batman knew nothing about him even while he was being manipulated by him. He was the orphan who was actively abused by his dad, and out of the three he won in the conflict.
 
Dead said:
When does Batman ever even use a gun outside out of the Knightmare sequence? We just making shit up?

A launcher for smoke grenades sure as fuck isn't the same
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He used them during the rescue scene.

He was shooting batarangs, punching them, picking up their guys, shooting them and then throwing the guns at them. A couple of guys ended up getting shot there.
 
Einchy said:
He used them during the rescue scene.

He was shooting batarangs, punching them, picking up their guys, shooting them and then throwing the guns at them. A couple of guys ended up getting shot there.
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One guy is shooting and Batman holds the gun away, which then causes everybody to dive to the ground to avoid the gunfire. This then gives Batman time to move in on them. I didn't see anybody die during that.
 
kswiston said:
He breaks through a wall and uses the goons assault rifle to shoot the pack of flame thrower dude. Doesn't count as murder since he was just aiming for the flamethrower tank, and the guy strapped to it didn't bother to move out of the way or not catch on fire.
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Had there not been a question of all of Batman's other kills, that'd be a clever reference in its own right. Flame thrower guy is KG Beast. Batman kills him in the comics...until later they undid it because they're comic books.
 
Sanjuro said:
...where does he state his objectives?
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He never directly stated his objective. He has some hang ups with his father that pisses him off that no hero saved him. It seems like he wanted all metas and superheroes to die given that he wanted Superman to kill Batman. Then, he intended to kill Superman with Doomsday.
 
Einchy said:
He used them during the rescue scene.

He was shooting batarangs, punching them, picking up their guys, shooting them and then throwing the guns at them. A couple of guys ended up getting shot there.
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He didn't use them in the rescue scene either. He holds up a dude's hand that is holding a gun and makes him spray against the wall scattering other thugs.

The flamethrower part I suppose yeah, but again, holding it while someone else is, but was 100% justified, and an example of why the no kill rule in general is stupid, and again is no worse than what Bale and Keaton have done.
 
Well, I just got out and that has to be most perplexing/interesting pieces of garbage I have ever seen.As some critics have said, it beats you down until you start begging for it to be over.It's quite an accomplishment to snuff out the heroism in this characters and ultimately make me hate them. It truly is the worst movie I have ever seen.

-The Justice League tie ins are forced, lame and completely out of place.
- The fights are all boring and lifeless with no or sensible character motivations behind them.
- The death of superman is just like the comic, a complete waste of time and is the definition of emotional manipulation.
- Wonder Women is non character who has no place in story but to fight the shitty monster at the end.
- And what a shitty monster indeed. Doomsday is as uninteresting and somehow makes less sense in this universe then the comic one.
- Lex Luthor is for some reason the Joker or Riddler. They just make him crazy (and annoying) completely missing the point of the character. Why does hate superman or batman or do anything in this movie? Who fuck knows.
-Why not stop there? Lets also ruin Batman as well. I guess Snyder mixed him up with the punisher since he's killing people left and right with no attention given to it.
- And finally the most uninteresting, indecisive and asshole of a Superman I have ever seen. Yeah, he saves people but does he seem particularly care about them or humans in general? Not at all. He truly feels like a alien and not a kid from kansas.

I was going to write "If this is tone and feeling of WB's dcu..." but it's pretty clear that this is it after watching such fundamental misunderstanding of these DC heroes, then I want no part of it.
 
mugurumakensei said:
He never directly stated his objective. He has some hang ups with his father that pisses him off that no hero saved him. It seems like he wanted all metas and superheroes to die given that he wanted Superman to kill Batman. Then, he intended to kill Superman with Doomsday.
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That's my point. He doesn't have to be the Lex we wanted, but they basically just aped other films using him generic villain.
 
Einchy said:
He used them during the rescue scene.

He was shooting batarangs, punching them, picking up their guys, shooting them and then throwing the guns at them. A couple of guys ended up getting shot there.
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The most obvious of them all is a guy on a mounted turret shoting at Batman in his batwing, Batman ended up disintegrating that poor bastard. before that one, you could have it as a big stretch that those goons survived him, but in that one, NO WAY.
 
Einchy said:
The only darker Batman that I've seen is the Flashpoint Batman but that one doesn't count.

Has there ever been a darker Bruce Wayne Batman? I really doubt it.
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Define darker. Darker as in killing dudes? Darker as in being humorless, more paranoid and violent? If the latter, then it's happened plenty of times.

Right after Jason died and before Tim joined up. Right after No Man's Land. Right after his ex died and he got accused for murder, he shut down his Bruce personality and became Batman full time in Bruce Wayne Murderer/Fugitive. Right after War Games when Stephanie died and the cops were after him for manipulating them. Right after he figured out that Zatanna erased his memories and after Tim's dad died, he became a super paranoid asshole. Batman has entered a dark place so many times over the years.
 
The best character in the movie was that female senator. She was the only thinking person there. The movie could have had much less action sequences and more logic, if its heroes had the fuck to give.

Its like in anime, when the bad guy comes down hard with words on the hero, and the hero is speechless. Fucking answer him!!! What are you a moron? Man, when Alfred went quiet about the ilogical shit Bruce was spewing, I fucking snapped.

Overall it wasn't wasted time, but shit couldve been real.
 
I think the All-Star Batman (Frank Miller) style of 'If you're about to throw a molotov cocktail, I will use a batarang to break it in your hands' is as far as you can take Batman's not-killing. Snyder does that with the dude holding a grenade, and even then it's a little much. That's the edge, IMO.

But when he just blows people up with the Batwing, or uses a car with goons in it as a wrecking ball to kill other goons, or using the guns on the Batmobile to shoot someone, I think Batman's been taken too far. He's a killer.
 
Caja 117 said:
The most obvious of them all is a guy on a mounted turret shoting at Batman in his batwing, Batman ended up disintegrating that poor bastard. before that one, you could have it as a big stretch that those goons survived him, but in that one, NO WAY.
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What about the car he slammed into with the Batmobile, hitched its corpse with his grapplehook, and swung it like a shot put to a second car?
 
Just came out few minutes ago. I'd rate it 8/10.

Great:
-Bats
-WW
-Final fight

Okay:
-Sups

Bad:
-Lois
-People of Metropolis

Awful:
-Lex

I gave Zuckerberg's Lex a chance and it blew up on my face. Such an awful portrayal.
 
Radec said:
Just came out few minutes ago. I'd rate it 8/10.

Great:
-Bats
-WW
-Final fight

Okay:
-Sups

Bad:
-Lois
-People of Metropolis

Awful:
-Lex

I gave Zuckerberg's Lex a chance and it blew up on my face. Such an awful portrayal.
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I'm curios. How would you rate this in comparison to some of the Marvel films such as Winter Soldier or Iron Man?
 
Just got back from the theater. The movie just bit off more than it could chew, and there are certainly some problems outside of that.

What's really stunning is the level of anger and outrage the movie is inspiring from critics. After all that I read in the last couple of days, I expected something 100x worse than what I ended up seeing.
 
Chiggs said:
Just got back from the theater. The movie just bit off more than it could chew, and there are certainly some problems outside of that.

What's really stunning is the level of anger and outrage the movie is inspiring from critics. After all that I read in the last couple of days, I expected something 100x worse than what I ended up seeing.
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I think people are comparing the mess that it is to the film that it could have been, and rightfully so.

It isn't the worst movie ever. It's competent, but in the latter half it's barely competent.
 
Sibersk Esto said:
What about the car he slammed into with the Batmobile, hitched its corpse with his grapplehook, and swung it like a shot put to a second car?
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An aside, I prefer Nolan's Batmobile scenes over BvS. Snyder's other action beats were better. That Batmobile action scene was lots of noise and smashing.
 
How come in MoS when Superman's mom is being threatened by Zod he can sense it but in this he doesn't have a clue where she is? Also Batman stopping the fight just because their mothers names were the same and because of Lex was pure bullshit. Hes still the exact same threat he was at the start.
 
broncobuster said:
An aside, I prefer Nolan's Batmobile scenes over BvS. Snyder's other action beats were better. That Batmobile action scene was lots of noise and smashing.
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Same here

I actually think the Batmobile action scene didnt even need to be there as he already placed the tracker on the truck.

Could have waited the long game and then steal the rock when it gets to the destination.
 
RangerX said:
How come in MoS when Superman's mom is being threatened by Zod he can sense it but in this he doesn't have a clue where she is? Also Batman stopping the fight just because their mothers names were the same and because of Lex was pure bullshit. Hes still the exact same threat he was at the start.
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I think I may have mentioned this, but I was secretly hoping it was the same Martha just to see the fan reactions.
 
I wonder if someone can explain one of the dreams Bruce experienced.

The one where he dreams blood discharging from his father grave and a giant bat (I assume his father) bites Bruce.
 
Topher said:
Agreed. It's kind of cheesy. Would've preferred something powerful, beautiful, and majestic.
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It was only good thing in the film through being so out of place. Laughed everything I heard it.

ultracal31 said:
Same here

I actually think the Batmobile action scene didnt even need to be there as he already placed the tracker on the truck.

Could have waited the long game and then steal the rock when it gets to the destination.
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Got to have a "cool" action scene where batman kills people though.
 
Topher said:
Agreed. It's kind of cheesy. Would've preferred something powerful, beautiful, and majestic. Bret Ratner's The Last Stand was...whatever, but The Dark Phoenix Theme was incredible.
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You're goddamn right it was.

That's one of the very few pluses of the film.
 
I really hope they get better writers / Directors for the stand alone movies.

I'd love to see Affleck in a solo Batman movie after this but hopefully without all the killing, or at least do A Death in the Family story and show how this Batman became so bitter and stopped caring about killing.

That storyline would fit DC's dark tone they seem to be going for at least.
 
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