Dave Chappelle getting backlash for jokes about Caitlyn Jenner
- Thread starter uncelestial
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Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
All of the people saying Chappelle's Show wouldn't make it today show me that this "debate" or conversation isn't possible. They don't understand the absolute basics of what people are even saying here.
Jesus fuck dude, what's wrong with you?
partyphone
Banned
I'm sad that you're a bigoted asshole. there's no good reason to be so disrespectful to the basic humanity of trans people.
. . . What you said is technically correct for reasons you probably don't even understand you're saying. Like, if you gave a puppy medicine where they'd eventually turn human it'd be the same thing, and a trans man actively IS born with a more male brain and taking testosterone makes most of them grow beards and be hairy like the rest of us who were born male in body.
But if you're referring to trans women like you probably are then you're just an asshole and grossly underestimate how important hormones are to shaping our sexual appearance. Like, if you took them before puberty you would develop into a mostly typical man/woman outside of the genitals, and those XY women are essentially that but from within the womb itself being on estrogen rather than testosterone.
80s Bad Guy
Banned
I had typed out a long response to that person, but you summed it up much more succinctly. I'm not even going to acknowledge his original quote. Fuck that guy.
Chappelle's ignorant rant gives asshats like that one more ammunition. That's why it's not comedy.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
You should try to be more respectful of others. What does it hurt, allowing someone the gender identity that they want?
First of all, trans people are not dogs. They are people, and deserve the same respect as anyone else. And they are not your walking punchline.
Second, even if you do somehow disagree with the gender a trans person identifies as, even if you do not understand it, with all the hatred, discrimination, and difficulties they experience every day of their lives, you owe it to them to give them the small dignity of treating them as the gender they identify as.
It's always had this sort of issue, but that was probably the most blatant piece of shit.
And this is pretty much proof that Chapelle's joke wasnt really "just a joke"
I love Chapelle and still will after this, but he has to be grilled on this. It's unacceptable and people need to stop hiding behind the "it's just a joke" excuse. Jokes can be offensive, damaging, and bigoted. The two are not mutually exclusive. And I really think that anyone that believes that is being willfully disingenuous and ignorant. Why? I think it shouldnt take anyone more than 5 seconds to think of an example of a "joke" that can be very out of line and offensive.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
SlaughterX comments are exactly why dave's "jokes" shouldn't be condoned. It allows people the security ti continue being bigoted assholes.
A Link to the Past
Banned
And Ridiculous Six was apparently a big hit, doesn't mean anything to me!
"Offence culture is out of... control" - Blackbeard
You don't hear that shit because we worked past that shit. We're in an era where you make a joke like that and your career as a stand-up comedian is over. We are, however, not in an era where you make a transphobic joke and "suffer the consequences."
Or at least why criticizing is vital. Contrasting views need to be out there so people know this isn't something to just take as "speaking the truth" and that there is real harm in continuing to perpetuate those views. And puppy analogies are on the kinder end of the spectrum given how some just snap and beat them up.
metalslimer
Member
Yep. Subjects should be open to comedy but there is a difference between shock comedy that has a purpose or wants to highlight some issue and just plain bigotry and ignorance. I think louis ck does a great job of the former. I'd say most of Dave Chappelle is usually the same
You just described the entire internet in 2016.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Haha yeah, pretty much. It's seriously unfortunate.
Is anyone calling for anything besides that? People criticize the joke so that he hopefully learns that his joke can be very harmful, reworks it, and/or doesn't do the joke again. Is anyone in this thread calling for him to be put in jail? Him not doing the joke again or reworking it is the goal, isn't it? That's how criticism works.
Anyone still wondering how bad transphobic jokes can be harmful?
A Link to the Past
Banned
Yup, and this is the mindset of much of his audience, too.
uncelestial
Member
I think I probably took that analogy the furthest and I am really sorry if it was upsetting. But I wanted the thread (and the person I was replying to) to think about how upsetting it is to read degrading things about a group you belong to. I wasn't saying that analogy out of sincere belief or trying to get a laugh, like Dave. My whole point was, "if this feels bad to you, imagine a famous comedian getting thousands of people to go along with it -- all of them effectively laughing at you."
I know these are sensitive things to talk about. I'm sorry it upset you; I don't think we need to all invent more racist jokes to keep going to that well and prove that it's possible for a joke to be terrible. I've made my point. But the person I was replying to literally didn't understand how anyone could be upset by what Dave was saying. Others are just flat out agreeing with the premise that trans people aren't "really" their gender. It's clear to me that the message about trans identity being real and worthy of respect isn't accepted by everybody. Not by every comedian, not by everyone in comedians' audiences, and not even everyone in this thread.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Really though, I'm actually super confused by Gekko's comments. It almost sounds like they are claiming that it's offensive because transphobic jokes are way more blatant than racist jokes are. It kind of makes the points people are trying to make - that comedians would say much more horrible, bigoted things about trans people than they would about black people.
freethoughtbubble
Member
Agreed. That's why I want to give Dave the benefit of the doubt until I hear his set for myself. I'm not for censoring comedy, but as many, many people in this thread have rightly pointed out very few are even hinting at actual censorship. What people are doing is criticizing (i.e., critically analyzing the intent, meaning, and impact of the joke). I just respect Dave's craft and intellect too much to assume that he's a bigot without hearing his words for myself.
Maybe he's still behind the curve on trans issues, as a lot of people are -- as I surely am -- but I don't doubt that he'll catch up after hashing things out, both in private and on the stage. I don't think he's SlaughterX...
uncelestial
Member
Honestly I might bear a little responsibility for Gekko's offense because my question was "what if a comedian was saying he shouldn't be forced to consider black people more than 3/5ths of a person?" And that is demonstrably worse than Dave's joke; Dave isn't calling trans people sub-human animals. Which is why I apologized. In my head the greater point was that it shouldn't be an imposition when someone asks to have their identity respected. But I probably went overboard.
I think there's a little bigotry there. He threw the "tranny" slur out there, and he rejects that a transgender identity is real. I love everything Dave did about race and I have faith that he can learn some lessons from the backlash because he is truly a sensitive and thinking person. His "Inside the Actor's Studio" hour is literally one of my favorite interviews of any person, ever. That's why this is all so sucky, as a huge fan of his.
He's behind the times on this and needs to catch up.
Moff
Member
do you know what trans people are going through?
obviously it's a lot different, but people are attacked and killed for being trans, not the mention the tragic suicide rate
but people bring up race because it's an example where luckily, after a few decades of doing the very same thing we do in this thread, some people have become aware of the problem and accept it as one, while mocking and disrespecting trans people seems to be a non issue for too many
laserlaser
Member
This thread moves way too fast 
My memory's not so great but I'd say it's lightweight transphobic. He joked about growing up with Bruce on the wheaties box, how amazing he beat Africans at running. Punch line: he wanted to be like Bruce when he grew up, he just didn't think he'd turn out like this. There's more to it but it's not a malicious or hateful tone, unlike how Chris Rock talks about Black women or when most comedians do stereotypical jokes. It sounds like he did tone it down since he started doing the joke. Like most male comedians, Dave is steeped in patriarchy but I think he's not as bad as others.
And for the record, he called the audience "squeemish" and "sensitive." So we weren't all just co-signing everything.
I think people will be more pissed at his rape jokes. Rape is fucked up and not funny. But damn, his set up for the jokes are hilarious.
My memory's not so great but I'd say it's lightweight transphobic. He joked about growing up with Bruce on the wheaties box, how amazing he beat Africans at running. Punch line: he wanted to be like Bruce when he grew up, he just didn't think he'd turn out like this. There's more to it but it's not a malicious or hateful tone, unlike how Chris Rock talks about Black women or when most comedians do stereotypical jokes. It sounds like he did tone it down since he started doing the joke. Like most male comedians, Dave is steeped in patriarchy but I think he's not as bad as others.
And for the record, he called the audience "squeemish" and "sensitive." So we weren't all just co-signing everything.
I think people will be more pissed at his rape jokes. Rape is fucked up and not funny. But damn, his set up for the jokes are hilarious.
JoJoShabadoo
Member
I think the problem with everyone in this thread saying (and persisting) that this joke is offensive to the transsexual community is that they are completely blowing it out of proportion. They are putting words like "delusional" into Chappelle's bit (without, by the way, fully understanding the context of the joke) and are going on about the challenges the transsexual community faces.
It is unnecessary to associate a comedy bit to how an individual (the comedian) or a community (the audience) feels about transsexuals. Just like when people laugh at terrorism, cheating, marriage, pedophilia, etc. this laughter does not represent a derogatory viewpoint of these subjects or the people that suffer from them.
When people (like me) on the side of "comedy has no limits" defend Chappelle and others, it's because essentially, the people voicing the offense they take are taking things the wrong way. They are associating a joke with something far more hurtful that may not even apply to the comedian or audience's intentions in their laughter.
For example, that thread on the teacher pushing down a special needs 4 year old? That's awful, and there's nothing funny about it. Now if a comedian jokes about wanting to "slap the shit out of" a special needs kid (I could see Louis CK saying this, for example), the room will erupt into laughter. It's all about context.
It is unnecessary to associate a comedy bit to how an individual (the comedian) or a community (the audience) feels about transsexuals. Just like when people laugh at terrorism, cheating, marriage, pedophilia, etc. this laughter does not represent a derogatory viewpoint of these subjects or the people that suffer from them.
When people (like me) on the side of "comedy has no limits" defend Chappelle and others, it's because essentially, the people voicing the offense they take are taking things the wrong way. They are associating a joke with something far more hurtful that may not even apply to the comedian or audience's intentions in their laughter.
For example, that thread on the teacher pushing down a special needs 4 year old? That's awful, and there's nothing funny about it. Now if a comedian jokes about wanting to "slap the shit out of" a special needs kid (I could see Louis CK saying this, for example), the room will erupt into laughter. It's all about context.
freethoughtbubble
Member
I think there's a little bigotry there. He threw the "tranny" slur out there, and he rejects that a transgender identity is real. I love everything Dave did about race and I have faith that he can learn some lessons from the backlash because he is truly a sensitive and thinking person. His "Inside the Actor's Studio" hour is literally one of my favorite interviews of any person, ever. That's why this is all so sucky, as a huge fan of his.
Yeah, I can only imagine what it'd be like if I woke up one morning to learn that Louis C.K. might actually believe that latinos are lazy or dishonest or something. I'd be pretty conflicted to say the least.
Iron Man Cooking a Crepe
Banned
There were people who had a problem with his "How old is 15 Really?" routine, so idk. I would have to see it for myself before I judged.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Again, I don't see your point. Certainly trans people haven't experienced slavery or Jim Crow, but there is momentous discrimination and harm being lodged against trans people right now.
What are you talking about? TC has full context, he saw it live.
While it's worse, I don't personally see the problem with the comparison - the point was to convey that if a joke was lodged at a black person that was horribly offensive, it would be noted as such. While Dave's joke doesn't call trans people subhuman, it certainly does attack their identity and their sense of self and contributes to the normalization of marginalized people right now. I think the best way to say it is that in the days where someone would say "3/5ths of a person", it wasn't considered nearly as offensive as it is now, when it was very much something that many, many people believed had some truth to it - much in the same way that people hold the perspective put forward by Chappelle with this joke.
JoJoShabadoo
Member
But many who are forming a strong opinion have not. Even so, do you disagree with what I've said?
partyphone
Banned
I'm still waiting for a reply from this poster:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=199522672
😔😔😔
A Link to the Past
Banned
I do. I think that you're painting comedy with too broad of a brush. I mean, let's look at the things you used as examples:
1. Jokes about terrorism - Not the same as jokes about trans people, because jokes about terrorism are meant to lighten the moods of people affected by terrorism as well as to diminish the terrorists and thus our fears of them.
2. Jokes about cheating - Not the same, because the subject is presumed to be dishonest and being the butt of a joke brings it upon themselves.
3. Jokes about marriage - Marriage is entirely an equal-opportunity thing; jokes about marriage can refer to black, white, straight, gay, religious, atheist, cis, trans. Married couples in and of themselves are not an oppressed class of people, thus it can't be said to be equivalent.
A lot of these things don't have the gravity that jokes about trans people have. You may not like the phrase, but a lot of it is absolutely "punching up" (or at the very least, not punching down). Jokes made at the expense of people who are either equipped to handle them, or people who we don't care if they cannot. Thus, it becomes important to consider whether being socially responsible is necessary with one joke and not the next - and given that Dave Chappelle very much so acted on social responsibility with a lot of his bits on The Chappelle Show, I do think that he is in a position to make the same level of consideration for jokes aimed at people who are not him. The best-case scenario for Chappelle is that these jokes were in fact made in "good fun", and that he has no problem with trans people whatsoever - but even then, who is to say that these jokes are not being received in the same way that his jokes about race were?
JoJoShabadoo
Member
Regarding your explanation on jokes about terrorism, it can be argued, from those sensitive to the issue, that it takes light of human lives that were taken prematurely and violently. I personally think it's not a commendable standpoint to take, to say "my issue is more important than yours" but to each his own.
The transsexual community is not alone in being made fun of during a comedy sketch. You're placing too much weight on a joke (which, again, you personally have not heard in it's entirety) and associating to all the troubles that a community faces. As long as a comedian isn't spouting off in interviews or radio shows, that transsexuals are not human, and laughing all the while they smugly sip their coffee, I think a lot of the offense is misplaced, and does not apply to this case.
Satires purpose is not performing analysis of social issues , as defined by Encyclopedia Britannica:
'Satire, artistic form, chiefly literary and dramatic, in which human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, parody, caricature, or other methods, sometimes with an intent to inspire social reform.'
'sometimes with an intent to inspire social reform' means it's just an artistic choice.
Think about the structure itself of the stand up comedy. bill hicks jokes about economy, history and politics work because they are tranchant, make absurd connections ,play on stereotypes, and they are implied rather than stated. Why do bill hicks discussions about economy, history and politics not work? Because they are tranchant, make absurd connections, play on stereotypes, and they are implied rather than stated.
Satirists indeed are used to selecting details from reality, even the most insignificant ones, so as to reduce its intrinsic complexity , accentuate inconsistencies ,and produce funny distortions of its original model - the public consciousness - through vague causal coherence. illicit procedure when it comes to journalism or critique.
Well , i think it's pretty self-evident that the field of satire is not rational examination, but rather desecration. anyway ,i refer to these studies for further information.
satire and argument are dangerous mix. What makes satire pleasurable is often how it differ from more rational argument. Satirical texts exaggerate and distort for comic effect resulting in sometimes little morethan an ad hominem attack (Johnson, 2010). deception , sarcasm , parodies , and ridicule have no place in rational discourse, even though they may sometimes have an amusing quality to them (Carlson,2008).
Now it comes what i believe the most important concept about satire is:
But heres the thing on comedy. If I were to do a satire on the assassination of John Foster Dulles, it would shock people. Theyd say, That is in heinous taste. Why? Because its fresh. And thats what my contention is: That satire is tragedy plus time. You give it enough time, the public, the reviewers, will allow you to satirize it.
Lenny Bruce
This is the whole point. Satire hits the background. Why?
Germans always have a word for everything. Today's word is : 'komisch sterben'.
Marx invented this locution. "The last phases of a world-historical form is its comedy. The gods of Greece, already tragically wounded to death( tragisch zu Tode verwundet) in Aeschyluss tragedy Prometheus Bound, had to re-die a comic death (komisch sterben) in Lucians Dialogues. Why this course of history? So that humanity should part with its past cheerfully(heiter)"
So , i would say satires essence is catharsis, and thats why for me nothing is off limits in this context: when you try to condition it (self-censorship for example) , you're just killing it.
partyphone
Banned
I'm not sure what any of that has to do with blatant trabsphobia???
A Link to the Past
Banned
EDIT: You still don't understand satire. Satire is commentary. Satire that is beyond criticism is trash.
Firstly, yes, there's a wrong way to make light of something. When South Park made light of Al Qaeda, they did so by making them look like Loony Tune characters. This works because it helps to relieve the tensions that Al Qaeda was trying to create. When Gilbert Gottfried made nearly a dozen tweets joking about a tremendous loss of life, it was awful because it was making fun of >10,000 people dying, not making fun of something people can get behind. In our history, there have been and indeed are jokes that run afoul, I don't know why there is such a broad "one-size-fits-all" defense for all jokes.
Secondly, again, the argument of "everyone gets made fun of" falls flat because not everyone is met with the same level of discrimination, and thus this broad strokes approach makes no sense. Making fun of a white guy isn't the same as making fun of a black guy, even if both are acceptable - even Louis C.K. thinks as such.
Firstly, yes, there's a wrong way to make light of something. When South Park made light of Al Qaeda, they did so by making them look like Loony Tune characters. This works because it helps to relieve the tensions that Al Qaeda was trying to create. When Gilbert Gottfried made nearly a dozen tweets joking about a tremendous loss of life, it was awful because it was making fun of >10,000 people dying, not making fun of something people can get behind. In our history, there have been and indeed are jokes that run afoul, I don't know why there is such a broad "one-size-fits-all" defense for all jokes.
Secondly, again, the argument of "everyone gets made fun of" falls flat because not everyone is met with the same level of discrimination, and thus this broad strokes approach makes no sense. Making fun of a white guy isn't the same as making fun of a black guy, even if both are acceptable - even Louis C.K. thinks as such.
Nostalgic Nightmare
Member
I've been to many stand up shows over the years and in that time many have been berated on looks, appearance, beliefs, sexual orientation etc.
Some of these get laughs, some don't, but most of the time you have a pretty good idea of the type of show it will be depending on the comedian.
In many of the cases where people were singled out in said shows, it really was down to the caliber of the comedian and their lack of material - essentially padding their stage time.
It sucks if people are singled out and made to feel bad, but on the other hand if you're going to see certain performers, you have to expect that nothing is off limits & there's a very good chance you are going to get singled out or possibly offended. It's almost like an assumed rule of thumb.
Some comedians come off as pretty angry people which can either help or hurt the material and the performance.
Some of these get laughs, some don't, but most of the time you have a pretty good idea of the type of show it will be depending on the comedian.
In many of the cases where people were singled out in said shows, it really was down to the caliber of the comedian and their lack of material - essentially padding their stage time.
It sucks if people are singled out and made to feel bad, but on the other hand if you're going to see certain performers, you have to expect that nothing is off limits & there's a very good chance you are going to get singled out or possibly offended. It's almost like an assumed rule of thumb.
Some comedians come off as pretty angry people which can either help or hurt the material and the performance.
JoJoShabadoo
Member
Well, tweets that make insensitive remarks over the death of innocent people is clearly a means to get mad (more than offended, really) especially when they're as unfunny and tasteless as making puns. I'm not necessarily painting comedy in a broad stroke, I'm not even saying people shouldn't get offended over certain jokes. I simply think that many people are overreacting here and unfairly holding Chappelle as something he very well may not be over an unheard joke.
Anyways, agree to disagree.
This is probably off topic but it kind of surprised Chappelle is getting heat for a joke on Trans people when it seems like Daniel Tosh spouts far more horrorific jokes about just about every group of people each time I see him. That's basically the entire point of Tosh.O. Not saying Chappelle shouldn't get some heat for a bad joke but is he an easier target than a white guy on Comedy Central?
You have that privilege to not overreact and handwave a "joke" when it will do no harm to you.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Daniel Tosh is trash-tier, and frankly, he elicits plenty of controversy. I've had a debate with a co-worker about how much of a shit he is, and I won that debate. If Dave Chappelle generates controversy, it's because he's talented and a much bigger name. Conversely, the white creators of South Park get even more heat than Chappelle does.
Maybe I'm just out of the loop then. The last bit of controversy I heard about Trey and Mat was over the Book of Mormon.
Edit: I also will admit I've laughed at a number of Tosh's bits though I have felt dirty for doing so. Some of his jokes made even me pause and I've got a pretty black, fucked up sense of humor. He's a terrible human being but that almost seems to be his shtick at this point.
A Link to the Past
Banned
They had a much more recent controversy than that, specifically the episode "The Cissy", which I haven't seen, and have heard from different people that it's both good and bad at addressing issues relating to trans people.
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