cereal_killerxx
Junior Member
This is truth. Even Christians are capable of making mistakes or becoming heavily misguided just like everyone else.
That depends on where you get your morality from. I get mine from the Bible which never changes.
Nihilism is the athiest God.
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Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
All due respect, that sounds like a sales pitch.
The sad thing about that sort of thinking is that it's not even uncommon.
Like religion just has a tendency to promote this sort of thinking where people just accept that they can't act on their desired tendencies because someone is always watching, and that there's virtue in having these tendencies and not acting on them.
If you severe that line of thinking soon enough, then you'll come up with reasonable internalizations of why one shouldn't act in a societally disagreeable manner without fear of constant external punishment.
Its one of the more frustrating retorts when dealing with christian morality... if you don't have (god based) morality, you're a moralless creature and you can just run around killing and raping everything!
Like really dude? I'm right here, and I'm obviously not killing and raping everything in sight. (not saying this is what alteredbeast is saying - just saying that many christians can't seem to fathom morality external of god - which is after all what their religion tells them is the prime source of morality).
MDSVeritas
Member
But see, you assume the concept of "to matter" somehow objectively exists. There is no innate meaning in the universe but there is also no actual concept of meaning in the universe either. Meaning is a concept we invented and then tried to apply on an objective scale, which naturally would be impossible.
But, if we look at it from our subject perspectives, where the entire concept of meaning was created, then it exists in spades. Games have meaning to some people, friends having meaning to some people, life has meaning to some people. There is no sense of what meaning is without those to perceive it, and those of us who perceive it are those that decide it.
Thus existential humanism.
King Tubby
Member
Not sure how the presence of a God or Gods somehow evades nihilism. There is no greater significance to the universe outside of the universe itself. Life is what you make it.
Lister
Banned
Strange, the guy 300 years int he past would have said the same thing. The priests who declare my fellow citizens to be abhorraitons that do not have equal rights, would say the same thing.
Strange.
The Sum of Zero
Member
Oh wow, that's a good way to look at it. I've been struggling with the same problem as OP, but this is some good food for thought.
Truths about yourself.
It only sounds that way because admittedly I'm not even knowledgeable enough myself to provide a better description.
Fenderputty
Banned
The bible has changed many many many times. It's had alterations, additions and a multitude of different interpretations.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Not sure they are "Truths". My understanding is science is basically the best guess with the available information.
Funyarinpa
Member
Joke or annoying generalization or what?
One of the most irrational things about religion IMO. The argument that any set of morality can be fully applicable in any circumstance whatsoever is incredibly senseless to me.
I think you should read the bible very carefully cause somethings that were ok thousand years ago aren't anymore.
Chezzymann
Member
My morality comes from empathy for others and the lessons and education i learned from growing up in society. I don't think anyone has a truly fixed morality point. We all grow and make changes to ourselves in life. I used to think gay marriage was immoral, but now I think its fine. But that doesnt mean you abandon it when things get tough. To me, what really keeps me together when things are terrible is other people like family and friends who are there to care for me and motivate me. I don't think that a fixed point in morality really exists, even christianity has changed its moral values a lot in the past few centuries. The closest thing you can get is the comfort of loved ones.
That being said, if you get that feeling with god, thats fine too. But neither is better to me.
SturokBGD
Member
I'll admit I'm not as learned as others around here but this is pretty much where I'm at. I mean even if there was a God and we could prove it... what would be the reason for God? Proof still doesn't provide reason. It's all too much for my feeble human brain, so I might as well just roll with "all I know is that I don't know" and be happy with what I've got.
This is why my wife and I have such a successful relationship even though she's religious and I'm not - apparently something that some atheists claim is impossible.
Aaronrules380
Member
Not to mention before it was a physical book, it was an oral tradition for 100s of years after the death of Christ. And oral traditions are always subject to change and unreliability over large timeframes
Funny how slave owners used the same exact argument, quoting the Bible verses as an infallible moral warrant to justify their world view.
What you meant to say is your interpretation never changes, and you find confort in that moral touchstone.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
The Purple Monkey Dishwasher Theorum.
potatohead
Member
Your children and your family and your work and your entire life experience have no instrinsic meaning
#kappa
Let's be real. You pick and choose what to follow from the Bible based on societal norms. Current laws and society as a whole ultimately dictate how you worship and follow the teachings of your religion, otherwise you would be a complete outcast and shunned. The idea that religion is the primary driving force in society is so bizarre to me. Especially since, as you said, the Bible never changes, yet simply look around you. No inquisition!
soundahfekz
Member
The only answer, at least to those of us fortunate enough to be able to change our circumstances
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
There is real possibility that I am, much like that scientific researcher who found that he was a psychopath while studying traits. Being a psychopath doesn't make you a bad or dangerous person necessarily, either. There is also a real possibility that I am just playing devil's advocate here.
Why would guilt come into play? I don't understand what there would be to feel guilty about in that case.
Wouldn't fear of supernatural retribution keep a lot of psychopaths from acting solely on whim and their own desires without any regard for what destruction they would leave in their wake?
Perhaps I am overestimating the number of psychopaths in the world, and underestimating the fact that most people are generally good, but I think for most people, a belief in karma or divine reward/retribution is a net positive for their behavior and for society in turn.
potatohead
Member
Hahahaha.
Maybe because some people base their morals on something other than G-O-D.
Again, people claiming the absurdity of other people's beliefs based only on their own belief structure.
Always amazes me.
Hahahahahaha!
How many different interpretations of the Bible are there?
The Bible has not just led to "one religion." What a joke. Every sect of Christianity has their own interpretation of God, relationship with the pope, and a completely different opinion on everything under the sun.
Somehow this is superior than having a disagreement without God. Amazing.
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
In what sense? Do you think I have misunderstood Nietzsche, or are you trying to say you don't share his thoughts on this?
Oppo
Member
jesus Stinkles
you owe me half a sandwich
for my part, I've always regarded the "you are but a speck of dust" mindset as actually comforting, not foreboding or depressing.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
I agree, but OP can assign as much arbitrary meaning as he wants to.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
You wouldn't feel guilty about hurting or treating someone like shit without God?
King Tubby
Member
It's called empathy.
The argument that religion keeps people on the right track in times of darkness is contradicted by all the examples of religious belief being used to lead people astray.
Fenderputty
Banned
It's less scary that you can see morality but not meaning without god I guess. Still insulting and short sighted to those who don't believe. I find plenty of meaning without a god.
Morality isn't a fixed point. What was once acceptable in the bible isn't now. Good people have failed and become bad. My own strength keeps me following the path I desire. I think it's sad you can't find strength from within but rather need external pressure applying fear.
The point of Christianity is to do nice so you can be one with god after life. It's completely self fulfilling. While on the planet you still get to pat yourself on the back for being good even if you tell yourself that's not why you do it.
For me personally, I've been an atheist since I was very young. And I've found that the idea that I really shouldn't exist, that so many coincidences had to occur throughout all of history in order for the Earth to be the way it is, for life to form, for humanity to emerge, for my ancestors to survive despite all odds, all leading up to me being here is much more beautiful than for any potential creator to have planned it all. That I exist despite the odds is to me a much more beautiful and humbling thought than it simply being God's will. And it's a very compelling reason for me to live my life to the fullest and do what I can to preserve the world and the ones I share it with. Because we exist despite everything, and that is awe-inspiring to me.
This is a weakness, not a strength.
Wanting to do your best includes understanding when the goal needs to be changed as new information and evidence is uncovered.
QuantumZebra
Member
First off Atheism =/ Nihilism. Just because you don't believe a sky fairy had a purpose and plan in making the universe, does it mean that life is devoid of meaning.
Life is the order within the chaos. The possibility of Earth and us existing is so small that it in itself is a blessing, regardless of sky fairies being responsible for it.
You, we, all of us are living, breathing, walking, talking star dust. We are the exception to the odds.
If anything, atheism should mean you cherish life and its possibilities even more than a theist. You recognize how improbable our existence is and find meaning in being the unique exception in a universe of chaos.
CornBurrito
Member
So how many homosexuals are you willing to stone to death?
How many slaves do you keep?
potatohead
Member
If a leader of a medieval society led the world on a crusade to murder millions of people would you consider them a psychopath?
Let alone that a psychopath, believing or not believing in God, does not need a book to tell them how to have a lack of morality of any kind.
Which is kind of the definition of a psychopath. Which is now called a sociopath. Which actually means someone who does not have any normal sense of morality in the first place.
Which itself is upon the spectrum of antisocial personalities.
It's really fun when people use words for which they do not know what they really mean, but use a pre-conceived notion of them that is completely contrary to the statement they are actually making using that term.
Deserted Maniac Island
Member
"Our ancient ancestors didn't have gods until they invented them" thats not how culture works you know. It's not a singular invention that create the idea of god, it was culture change and adaptation that lead to the idea of god. Our "ancient ancestors" didn't debate the existence of god, you can't call people who simple don't denote the existence of god as atheist (Would you call culture that believe in magical ritual atheists?), but contemporary atheism is absolutely a direct reaction to theism, just look at the name itself A-theism. In industrialized culture, people take the idea of god literally, but most other cultures they don't justify their beliefs, they just live it. It's fluid, it changes over time, and most of all it the contemporary meaning that matter most, history to most culture doesn't matter, it the myths and stories that are told that matters (Even in the secular west, people and stories are mythicized).
Plus religion doesn't necessarily stipulate the belief in god. The three major religion are aiming to be universal and are trying to explain the world (Because of the idea of enlightenment), but religion is just culture, we designate it as a category.
You understanding of religion is material, try to view it a symbolic system, and not a direct reaction to physical world and needs.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Oppo
Member
oh yeah? which translation?
TheOctodad
Member
Personally, I find these kinds of philosophical discussions of Atheism/Deism and morality to generally be a huge adventure in people having wildly different definitions of God and morality.
As a "Christian," most of the versions of God that atheist describe, I don't believe in either. But that's largely the fault of evangelicalism and the Westernized ideas of God the have become popularized and not the atheist perspective themselves.
I think imagining "God" as a verb more than a noun is a helpful start in a better picture of God. I actually believe that the very "engine" of the evolutionary process of the universe could be described as God. As the universe evolves into greater complexity and awareness, we begin to have more of an awareness of our role within it and to care for it and each other.
Personally, this is why I have no issue or problem with the idea that Atheist have an equally strong morality and ethical compass. It's not so much as subscribing to a dogma or doctrine as it is to align yourself with the care and love for creation and your fellow human. While this might be called humanism to the Atheist, regardless of what you want to call it I believe it is tapping into the very creative source of life and love that began the whole universe.
This will probably be written off as mystical bullshit by most. That's fine, as it's hard to summarize this perspective without coming across that way. As a Christian, if I really do believe that God is "reconciling all things to himself." I am optimistic that, despite our differences, our various perspectives are working together to create a better world when we try to love our fellow human and find common ground to care for the world we are in.
Of course, as a Christian, I find great inspiration in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. To me, if there ever was a embodiment of the very nature of the way I think we should treat each other and live, I think his life was a great example. And to quote Jesus, "If you've seen me, you have seen what God is like." What the institutions have done with it since then though, is another story altogether.
Essentially I applaud anyone, regardless of belief systems, who is trying to live for more than themselves - who is willing to speak out on behalf of the oppressed, the powerless, those without a voice. The people that are building schools, hospitals, creating art, caring for the sick, protecting the innocent, raising families, etc. are all doing part of the work of what I believe is God. And I just don't find it to be overly important to force them to declare allegiance to my specific ways of thinking for it still to be true.
As a "Christian," most of the versions of God that atheist describe, I don't believe in either. But that's largely the fault of evangelicalism and the Westernized ideas of God the have become popularized and not the atheist perspective themselves.
I think imagining "God" as a verb more than a noun is a helpful start in a better picture of God. I actually believe that the very "engine" of the evolutionary process of the universe could be described as God. As the universe evolves into greater complexity and awareness, we begin to have more of an awareness of our role within it and to care for it and each other.
Personally, this is why I have no issue or problem with the idea that Atheist have an equally strong morality and ethical compass. It's not so much as subscribing to a dogma or doctrine as it is to align yourself with the care and love for creation and your fellow human. While this might be called humanism to the Atheist, regardless of what you want to call it I believe it is tapping into the very creative source of life and love that began the whole universe.
This will probably be written off as mystical bullshit by most. That's fine, as it's hard to summarize this perspective without coming across that way. As a Christian, if I really do believe that God is "reconciling all things to himself." I am optimistic that, despite our differences, our various perspectives are working together to create a better world when we try to love our fellow human and find common ground to care for the world we are in.
Of course, as a Christian, I find great inspiration in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. To me, if there ever was a embodiment of the very nature of the way I think we should treat each other and live, I think his life was a great example. And to quote Jesus, "If you've seen me, you have seen what God is like." What the institutions have done with it since then though, is another story altogether.
Essentially I applaud anyone, regardless of belief systems, who is trying to live for more than themselves - who is willing to speak out on behalf of the oppressed, the powerless, those without a voice. The people that are building schools, hospitals, creating art, caring for the sick, protecting the innocent, raising families, etc. are all doing part of the work of what I believe is God. And I just don't find it to be overly important to force them to declare allegiance to my specific ways of thinking for it still to be true.
Yeah, it's an interesting position and I have a lot of friends who share that view. It's not for me, but I think it's the best philosophy for atheists who are overwhelmed with the reality their position provides. It's very pragmatic.
CornBurrito
Member
If you are playing devil's advocate it is a poor one. This isn't the 1800s. We know where our capacity for morality comes from. We can see the beginnings of morality in other primate species. You don't magically lose the capacity for empathy and judgements of fairness just because you cease believing in god. Unless you want to assert Chimpanzees believe in God.
You have experience of what makes you happy, sad, etc also you understand what makes other people feel the same. Understanding this is were your morals starts.
If your only reason why you don't kill other people cause god said is bad or because the laws of our society punish murder, then thats fcked up and you probably have a problem and need help.
If your only reason why you don't kill other people cause god said is bad or because the laws of our society punish murder, then thats fcked up and you probably have a problem and need help.
potatohead
Member
Beautiful statement and I completely agree.
The true G-O-D of our universe is the universe itself and the laws the govern it. There are no other definite laws besides these.
The physics and chemistry of the natural world is what is truly beautiful, that it even *allows* us to exist on this plane of the universe is amazing in and of itself.
And the universe is indifferent to us. Which makes it all the more strange and amazing
Funyarinpa
Member
Holy shit. Holy. Fucking. Shit. Would you be truly unable to comprehend, and regret, that you have hurt others had it not been for your belief that you'd be punished for such an act by a divine being? Do you hold your own yourself to no standards at all? Are you that incapable of self-restraint?
That's so bafflingly, incredibly and saddeningly immature that it's legitimately depressing (especially knowing that this is a common sentiment).
If you want to justify religion's existence by claiming that it contributes to society, you have to factor in terrorism, religious oppression, mutual alienation, wars, blasphemy laws, so many more ways in which religion stints social progress and harms people.
If you think that the number of psychopaths suppressed by religion is significant enough to be more beneficial than the harms of religious extremism, then that's horrifying and depressing in its own way.
potatohead
Member
Oppo
Member
Beautiful statement and I completely agree.
The true G-O-D of our universe is the universe itself and the laws the govern it. There are no other definite laws besides these.
The physics and chemistry of the natural world is what is truly beautiful, that it even *allows* us to exist on this plane of the universe is amazing in and of itself.
And the universe is indifferent to us. Which makes it all the more strange and amazing
one of my favourite quotes, because it so harshly mixes the banal reality with the optimistic philosophy of this sentiment is: yes, you are a beautiful and unique snowflake. just like every other snowflake.
Deserted Maniac Island
Member
Totally, culture can exist without religion. But, culture is in some part made up of beliefs and acts that can't be justified with logic or evidence, food taboos, sex taboos, rituals, cultural acts like music, art, and entertainment, economics. For example: why do people in the US not like eating insects, to someone who does that doesn't make sense, it's illogical
(And vice-versa).
I would recommend this reading for further understanding of how sometimes culture is illogical: http://nebula.wsimg.com/01628ee1ff7...57F7AAE3532CF21CA&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
[The body rituals of the Nacirema]
HazySaiyan
Banned
That's not a good thing, a moral system should be able to change and adapt with new evidence, not stick to its guns even after it's been proven to be wrong.
QuantumZebra
Member
How many children have you stoned to death for cursing at their parents?
How many women who were raped did you kill if they would not wed their rapists?
How many slaves have you killed for disobeying their masters?
Do you wear fabric blends?
Do you eat shellfish?
I'll be eagerly awaiting your replies!
Great post.
TheOctodad
Member
Sorry, but this is patently untrue. In seminary one of our first classes is about all the ways things change in the Biblical accounts and the understanding over time. This isn't some progressive seminary either, this is Biblical Scholarship taught by major Biblical Scholars that write the commentaries and research your churches use.
Even in the first three chapters of Genesis we have two creations accounts that are in a different order.
The Biblical account speaks of a firmament (a literal dome) where the stars are holes that the glory of God is shining through in.
There's a story in the OT where the a kings aide becomes a follower of God. He talks about how when he returns, the king is old and rest on his arm when he kneels to his pagan God - which means this aide will also have to kneel. Elijah respond to him, "go in peace." Essentially, "That rule about not bowing to false idols, no big deal. It's your heart the matters." - changed rule.
We could talk about the New Testament where Peter has a vision from God that tells him he can eat animals now. He replies "surely not lord." Because he had been taught all throughout the Bible that it was wrong, but now God is saying it's ok.
And then if I really wanted to get technical we could talk about all of the disagreements on location and accounts in the OT and the NT. Or we could talk about the MASSIVE disagreements on the translations of certain words in the Bible. Which translation are you declaring to "never change?" Because I can tell you right now that every English translation has MASSIVE leaps in certain areas because of language differences. So, again, it has changed.
And as others have brought up, we have largely rejected slavery and the poor treatment of women that the NT seems to happily support in some areas. Again, we evolved and changed.
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