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[Laevateinn]

But if you really take athiesm to it's logical conclusion, what are you left with? If everything is mindless atoms bumping into each other, with no guiding hand, then by definition there is no purpose in anything, no 'meaning of life', nothing but a howling chaos.

So? What's wrong with that?

The athiest also loses any concept of a fixed morality. If different cultures have different (or even opposing) moral values, why should I follow any of them? Why not just make up my own morality where I can do whatever I want? It would be no more or less authentic than any other.

Doesn't empirical evidence point to this anyway? Each culture has different ideas of what is moral. There is nothing forcing you to follow the "morality" that your culture follows other than the possibility of being rejected by the culture to which you belong. People adhere to their culture's idea of morals because they want to socialize or don't want to be thrown in prison. It's pretty obvious that there is no universal morality.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Many responses seem to amount to, 'yes, this is all largely true, but try and ignore it and just enjoy yourself', which is fair enough and exactly what I do do.

But it does rather suggest that the best way to live is to kid yourself into thinking that things matter when they don't.

This is a line of reasoning that turns people toward religion. This existential crisis that life can't be meaningful without someone/something other than yourself telling you it is.

 

[wrens]

Living a purposeful, thoughtful life is its own reward. Doing good feels good for its own sake. These ideas have served me well and helped me through a wonderful few decades so far. There is the occasional long, dark night of the soul, but such moments are thankfully fleeting and drowned out by the immense good.

 

[Two Words]

The lack of an innate meaning to life doesn't mean you can't create your own meaning to life.

 

[pigeon]

Many responses seem to amount to, 'yes, this is all largely true, but try and ignore it and just enjoy yourself', which is fair enough and exactly what I do do.

But it does rather suggest that the best way to live is to kid yourself into thinking that things matter when they don't.

Sure. What's the problem with that?

There's scientific evidence to show that when people are faced with huge problems they can't solve (like climate change, in the example, but the fundamental meaninglessness of all human existence probably counts too), they get depressed.

No surprise that ignoring those problems or replacing them with problems they can solve makes them happier.

 

[Unfathomability]

Yes, all our actions, goals, our entire life is meaningless in the context of a cold, uncaring universe. But we don't live in that context. We live a life, as people, sensing and emoting and experiencing, and we can't help but assign meaning to what we experience. And some of the things we experience is love and affection, loyalty and many other 'binding' emotions for our fellow people that are the basis for morality.
And yes, while that means that your personal goals is ultimately meaningless, to YOU they couldn't be more meaningFUL, as meaning is a product of the human mind anyway. You can't escape it. It is as impossible to not experience and assign meaning as it is to "live a life without free will" - any action you take will be AS IF you had free will, no matter if free will is real or not.

I don't know it that made ANY sense, but it is what I got out of absurdism, at least.

 

[Cartman86]

A God is no better of an answer to these questions. Brings up just as many issues.

 

[SocksAndShoes]

This is one of the reasons I Believe.

My experience indicates that there is meaning and purpose in life.

Atheism is antithetical to this

This is all sorts of incorrect.

You can absolutely lead a life with meaning and purpose without a belief in a higher power.

 

[thehypocrite]

Men are still good.

 

[Newline]

The idea of an afterlife as reward/punishment that comes with it I assume.

Which is just stupid in my mind as it assumes that humans can only act good if there is promise of a reward. It's the ego getting in the way again.

 

[Llyranor]

Atheists are free to create their own meaning for their lives, without relying on a deity. Nihilism is just one of the options they can freely pick from. That freedom of choice is probably liberating for some.

You're looking at it from the wrong angle. Meaning is subjective. It's what matters to you. That's all. It's not kidding yourself. If you find that you can't find any meaning, then you're a nihilist.

Yup. And being able to choose what truly matters to you, rather than it being dictated to you, can be great.

 

[Steel]

Many responses seem to amount to, 'yes, this is all largely true, but try and ignore it and just enjoy yourself', which is fair enough and exactly what I do do.

But it does rather suggest that the best way to live is to kid yourself into thinking that things matter when they don't.

You're looking at it from the wrong angle. Meaning is subjective. It's what matters to you. That's all. It's not kidding yourself. If you find that you can't find any meaning, then you're a nihilist.

 

[Odrion]

This is how I pretty much feel about it:

 

[Vicetrailia]

Well you still gotta live.

 

[Africanus]

Men are still good.

How many stay that way?

 

[Alienous]

The idea of an afterlife as reward/punishment that comes with it I assume.

Which would be ... someone keeping score? More life?

I know you're just bringing the point up, so this isn't targeted at you: I'm not seeing where you're coming from, OP.

If it is an afterlife thing you still still have that, it just isn't physical. It's conceptual. It's the way you influenced people, who then go on to influence people, who then go on to influence people (...). Unless life is lived in a vacuum you contribute to the ongoing human experience, whether than be in a small way or a large one.

If you're talking about ultimate meaningless, the fact that we won't, collectively as a race or a universe, go on forever, I don't see that constituting meaninglessness, not in any way that isn't purely philosophical and divorced from the reality we all experience.

Just because there isn't a pre-defined meaning doesn't mean that life is ultimately meaningless.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Which is just stupid in my mind as it assumes that humans can only act good if there is promise of a reward. It's the ego getting in the way again.

The major component of an afterlife is the belief in the Trinity. Being good and bad only goes so far as those 10 commandment things.

Re: serial killers who use the "I believe and love Jesus" loophole with the assumption it wipes your sins and gets you into heaven.

 

[Trumpets]

You don't act like a jerk to other because it could get you killed and the impulse to want to live is strong. Most humans are born with certain innate qualities, empathy being one of them.

Tell that to the various tribes that used to kill and eat people, or the Spartans who policed their gene pool using infanticide. Any modern person would think of these things as abhorrent, but they were considered perfectly normal there and then.

 

[Ethelwulf]

I'm atheist, love art and wrote my master thesis on philosophy of the mind. I believe we're moral agents by definition (as D. Dennett points), so I don't see why me not believing in God would make me less moral.

 

[Raistlin]

Secular humanism?

 

[Funyarinpa]

This is all sorts of incorrect.

You can absolutely lead a life with meaning and purpose without a belief in a higher power.

I believe this is quite obvious, although many do not realize it.

Quoting post from last page that got drowned:

There is a difference between atheism and nihilism.

I feel that "meaning" exists as an atheist. There IS more to the universe than atoms and whatnot, and yes, that's how consciousness, meaning and emotion did come into being, by particles and forces, but the difference is that I do not attribute the existence of meaning to some sort of supernatural, divine being. Meaning and consciousness were concepts created by humans, for humans. The existence of "consciousness" is something I solely credit the increased brain capacity of the homo sapien for. In the sense that it's not physical or tangible, I do define the concept as an "illusion", but it's an illusion that I accept because I experience it.

Physics gave rise to thought. They are incomparably different things, but one's existence does not discredit the importance of the other .

Theism is saying that physics and thought came from a divine source.

Atheism is saying that physics gave birth to thought.

 

[adj_noun]

You make the point. For myself, said point comes from my friends, family and community and trying to help make their situations just a little better before I check out.

Is there a grand, mystical point to trying to make things better? I don't know. But I'm here. The day will come when I will not be here. What I choose to do in the interim is my choice, but also my responsibility.

 

[Moff]

Many responses seem to amount to, 'yes, this is all largely true, but try and ignore it and just enjoy yourself', which is fair enough and exactly what I do do.

But it does rather suggest that the best way to live is to kid yourself into thinking that things matter when they don't.

not really, no. what people are saying is that things don't become meaningless because there is no god.
a lot of things were very important before religion and they will still be very important after religion.
the only thing that really doesn't matter is religion.

 

[Aiii]

The athiest also loses any concept of a fixed morality. If different cultures have different (or even opposing) moral values, why should I follow any of them? Why not just make up my own morality where I can do whatever I want? It would be no more or less authentic than any other.

And why would your own chosen morality be any better or worse than the made-up-by-other-men-morality that you get from a religious text?

Besides, realistically I'd sooner trust a person that chooses a moral path out of their own volition, rather than out of fear of an unknown God or a Hell.

Morality is based on compassion, on understanding that one can't do bad things without consequences. Consequences that impact yourself, others. If your morality is dependent on fear of a higher power, I would definitely not trust you as much as I would someone who is moral because they chose to be.

 

[Arkeband]

Do ants need morals to know that they have to work together to survive?

If there were any subjective meaning, it's simply to survive and thrive, preferably not at anyone else's expense.

"be kind to one another" or "don't be a dick" are great morals to adhere to without needing to invoke the supernatural.

 

[Steel]

Tell that to the various tribes that used to kill and eat people, or the Spartans who policed their gene pool using infanticide. Any modern person would think of these things as abhorrent, but they were considered perfectly normal there and then.

They considered it part of staying alive.

 

[cackhyena]

This is one of the reasons I Believe.

My experience indicates that there is meaning and purpose in life.

Atheism is antithetical to this

Um, wrong.

 

[kiguel182]

Why waste time thinking about it? I don't believe there is a good but I still attribute meaning to my experiences.

I feel things and my memories mean something to me. There's nothing spiritual about that process.

 

[Newline]

Tell that to the various tribes that used to kill and eat people, or the Spartans who policed their gene pool using infanticide. Any modern person would think of these things as abhorrent, but they were considered perfectly normal there and then.

There's things were doing now as a society that will be looked back on with shock and horror in centuries time. Progress is awesome when you think how far the human race has come.

The major component of an afterlife is the belief in the Trinity. Being good and bad only goes so far as those 10 commandment things.

Re: serial killers who use the "I believe and love Jesus" loophole with the assumption it wipes your sins and gets you into heaven.

The only reason people believe in an afterlife is the fear of being punished for being morally wrong and the promise of being rewarded for being morally right.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Many responses seem to amount to, 'yes, this is all largely true, but try and ignore it and just enjoy yourself', which is fair enough and exactly what I do do.

But it does rather suggest that the best way to live is to kid yourself into thinking that things matter when they don't.

Yes and no. It matters if you think it matters, that's all there is to it.

I'm probably well hated on this forum by a lot of people, but the reason is because i share a lot of this same kind of nihilistic views. Some things matter to me, but honestly not a whole lot.

It's kind of a blessing and a curse. Sometimes I'd like to experience life through the eyes of someone who gave a shit about more things because it's kind of a depressing way of life. But at the same time, it just seems stupid to me, because i still don't think all that other shit matters.

 

[Thatonemoor]

I never understood why people want morality to be hand feed to us by a creator god. Morality is something so complicated that we need to work towards a moral standard as a society, not point to some book and say it told me so. That seems unauthentic and lazy in my opinion. Anyway I don't believe we have no purpose to live even though I'm an atheist. I grew up in a strong Christian home and had god pushed down my throat every year of my life. So when I discovered I was an atheist I thought much like what you are arguing today, that life has no meaning and that everything is pointless. Then I found this video and it showed me that our lives do have a meaning.

We give our lives their own meanings by moving forward as the human race. Life doesn't need to have a meaning, we can make one ourselves and there isn't anything wrong with it.

 

[Fandangox]

So is there any logical way out of this nihilistic mindset where a person is ultimately no more important than a pile of mud? Sure you can set your own goals (get a promotion, have kids, own a Porsche) but in a godless universe those goals are as meaningless as everything else. Your job, children and shiny car are as meaningless as you are and everything else is.

Umm...discuss.

Even in a "god" universe anyone could argue those things are meaningless, even more so than in a godless universe. Anyone can give meaning to their own lives, regardless of what teachings or beliefs they act on.

 

[Transhuman]

But if you really take athiesm to it's logical conclusion, what are you left with? If everything is mindless atoms bumping into each other, with no guiding hand, then by definition there is no purpose in anything, no 'meaning of life', nothing but a howling chaos.

....

So is there any logical way out of this nihilistic mindset where a person is ultimately no more important than a pile of mud?

I just do what theists do when their belief structure conflicts with the the needs of the flesh.

Be a hypocrite.

Try Transhumanism, instead.

Worship me instead OP.

 

[Fenderputty]

I like how the first post was some highly insulting religious bullshit and then poof. Dude disappears ...

 

[Pantaghana]

My life has meaning because I give it meaning. I don't need some invisible genie for that.
I acknowledge the fact that in the grande scheme of the universe it's insignificant, and I do not give a single fuck. That meaning is mine and mine alone.

And you are right, there is no such thing as objective morality, despite what some may claim. Just look at all the cultures around the world, beyond simple stuff like "don't murder" and "don't steal" they all vary significantly.

 

[Ophelion]

I prefer to think of it not as a universe lacking in meaning, but rather a universe where I am free to impose onto my personal universe the meaning that makes the most sense to my life and values rather than having it thrust upon me. I believe in people. I believe in the transformative power in art. I believe in the value and comfort that can be taken in actual friendship and romantic love. These things matter to me and so, that is the meaning of my life. It really can be just that simple. Looking for some overarching Meaning of Life is missing the point of not being locked into a dogma of any sort. Everyone can follow their own bliss. Or...not. If that's your deal, I guess. It's just a pretty lazy answer to that question.

Also, fixed morality was always an illusion made that much more clear when you try to look for parallels between people obeying those commandments with whether someone believes or not. People are moral not because of imposed religious rules so much as because communities expect certain things of their members and those become laws. Really ancient laws made it into religious texts, trying to get the shadow of looming gods to bully people into obeying them. But we've got cops. They are way better at bullying people into obeying the rules. We don't need any of that.

Seriously though, the only time an Atheist should default to Nihilism is if that Atheist is philosophically lazy.

 

[Fenderputty]

Yes and no. It matters if you think it matters, that's all there is to it.

I'm probably well hated on this forum by a lot of people, but the reason is because i share a lot of this same kind of nihilistic views. Some things matter to me, but honestly not a whole lot.

It's kind of a blessing and a curse. Sometimes I'd like to experience life through the eyes of someone who gave a shit about more things because it's kind of a depressing way of life. But at the same time, it just seems stupid to me, because i still don't think all that other shit matters.

Tag quote.

 

[God Dayumm]

Epicureanism proposed the idea that although we are indeed just a bunch of atoms with no purpose living in chaos, life is worth it for the pleasures and the pursuit of happiness. The greatest good is pleasure, not meaning

 

[Newline]

I never understood why people want morality to be hand feed to us by a creator god. Morality is something so complicated that we need to work towards a moral standard as a society, not point to some book and say it told me so. That seems unauthentic and lazy in my opinion. Anyway I don't believe we have no purpose to live even though I'm an atheist. I grew up in a strong Christian home and had god pushed down my throat every year of my life. So when I discovered I was an atheist I thought much like what you are arguing today, that life has no meaning and that everything is pointless. Then I found this video and it showed me that our lives do have a meaning.

We give our lives their own meanings by moving forward as the human race. Life doesn't need to have a meaning, we can make one ourselves and there isn't anything wrong with it.

Broken vid there matey.

 

[HazySaiyan]

At it's base level the purpose of live is to simply survive, but we're fortunate in that we can prescribe so much more to it thanks to our intellect. Life is what you make of it and it's the only one you have so don't waste it.

Quite frankly I find the theist mindset a lot more nihilstic and cynical. "This life is just a temporary one anyway so what's the point in achieving or doing anything meaniful?" That's why you get people living in monasteries and praying all day. They're not enjoying themselves, they're not making the world a better place, and for what? To earn enough Good Boy Points to get into Heaven? What a waste.

 

[Chezzymann]

To me athiesm is actually better for morality than religion. With religion, your motivation for being morally right is the fear of burning in hell (or being reincarnated into an animal). While with athiesm, your motivation for being morally right is set by the standards of your society and your empathy for others. It comes entirely from people wanting to help others and better their society, not fear. You don't need an ancient book to set your morals for you.

 

[LeeRoyBrown]

This is one of the reasons I Believe.

My experience indicates that there is meaning and purpose in life.

Atheism is antithetical to this

What does purpose in life have to do with a God?

Like can you give me a reason why I need some sort of overarching reason to do anything other than personal goals and satisfaction?

 

[Figments]

The problem with your statements on a lack of morality is that morals (and ethics) exist largely because people some time ago decided that life would be better off with them than without them, regardless their justifications, be it religious or otherwise. If you stretch the issue even more philosophically, you get to basic human rights only meaning anything because people are willing to defend them.

In both cases, these things exist because people have reasoned and concurred with each other that /not/ having them makes everything worse.

And I'm a Catholic.

 

[Daingurse]

Yes, life is pretty much chaos. There is no inherent meaning to anything. Life is entirely what you make of it. It honestly can be a very depressingly belief to hold, but it does bring about some level of comfort as well.

 

[cloud_sleep]

This is probably not very helpful but: There is no real self, free will or intrinsic meaning to existence. This knowledge can be liberating or depressing, depending on the moment.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

I've been an athiest for as long as I've thought seriously about the topic of god and religion, which followed a childhood that was pretty much secular anyway. I then went on to do physics at university and have followed a mostly scientific career path. I'm about as secure in my athiesm as I can be, basically, and I very much doubt that will ever change.

But if you really take athiesm to it's logical conclusion, what are you left with? If everything is mindless atoms bumping into each other, with no guiding hand, then by definition there is no purpose in anything, no 'meaning of life', nothing but a howling chaos.

The athiest also loses any concept of a fixed morality. If different cultures have different (or even opposing) moral values, why should I follow any of them? Why not just make up my own morality where I can do whatever I want? It would be no more or less authentic than any other.

So is there any logical way out of this nihilistic mindset where a person is ultimately no more important than a pile of mud? Sure you can set your own goals (get a promotion, have kids, own a Porsche) but in a godless universe those goals are as meaningless as everything else. Your job, children and shiny car are as meaningless as you are and everything else is.

Umm...discuss.

Please, this is such bullshit.

I dont believe in god, wasnt brought up religious (other than parents putting down CoE on forms) and i am able to have morals. You know how? Its a little thing called empathy, where i can acknowledge that others have a conscious mind and react to external stimuli. Because of this, i know that treating someone else badly causes them suffering, and if i wouldnt appreciate that so neither will they.

This foolish idea that you need religion to lead a morally good life is some insane idea that only weak willed, religious people who cant imagine being able to not be a piece of shit without the threat of hell looming over you believe.

If you want to argue that 'religion' gives everyone a standard to adhere to, what about all the examples of bigotry and prejudice that is shown from god and his followers in the bible? What about the sections that allow slavery or treating women as second class citizens? Oh but that is just fables to give you an idea or it was from an older version and as such doesnt count (Yet somehow your religion still does). What about the fact religion is interpreted in so many different ways that it can be spun to endorse xenophobia, homophobia, sexism etc?

But no, atheists cant possibly come to the right conclusions themselves without religion showing them the light...

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Humans emerge from the natural world, and are social creatures. You can't really invent your own morality from scratch any more than you can reinvent yourself as a skyscraper or cloud of gas. Athiesm is not Amorality it is a rejection of theism which is a belief in gods.

 

[Famassu]

You can CREATE meaning for your life. Just because there's no absolute meaning for us to be in this universe because religions are BS doesn't mean our life is not worth living to its fullest. Make your life about something. Help others, create art, experience all kinds of things just for the sake of that being enjoyable.

And people can agree on certain key moralities (i.e. don't do harm to others) just fine even without religion and there's just as much justification if not even more for it based on science than because God or Jesus said so.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Tag quote.

Literally the only time this response was ever relevant.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Life is what you make it. DEEP.