Fenderputty
Banned
Look up the multiverse theory.
Nihilism is the athiest God.
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Look up the multiverse theory.
Palette Swap
Member
As many have said, there's no straight road from atheism to nihilism.
If anything, the biggest nihilistic douchebags right now are religious people hiding their nihilism behind apocalyptic visions.
Among the less quoted guys, Camus is there too. I know he's kind of derided as a philosopher, but he's on point in his implied extension of Amor Fati.
I really like the idea that because the world is such a shitty and absurd place, you should love it and live in it, because doing otherwise would just add more misery to what is too often a miserable place.
If anything, the biggest nihilistic douchebags right now are religious people hiding their nihilism behind apocalyptic visions.
Bingo.
Among the less quoted guys, Camus is there too. I know he's kind of derided as a philosopher, but he's on point in his implied extension of Amor Fati.
I really like the idea that because the world is such a shitty and absurd place, you should love it and live in it, because doing otherwise would just add more misery to what is too often a miserable place.
Funyarinpa
Member
I can relate, I honestly can. I come from a country where Islam has borne an incredible influence on my nation's culture, history, art and philosophy. As someone who believes that the best way to live is to be the happiest you can to the smallest possible expense of others, I greatly respect monks, philosophers, poets, etc. who find complete inner peace and understanding in religion.
Mr Waluigi
Banned
Is this a troll?
Atheism isn't "life is meaningless", atheism is "there is no God". If you think that "there is no God" automatically leads to "everything is purely meaningless, purposeless and senseless" automatically leading to having no moral compass, you don't know what atheism AND nihilism are. You can enjoy life without believing in a deity, you can admit to being a slave of your own emotional needs (which include being nice to people, believe it or not, it's an evolutionary trait that has helped us survive for so long) while still thinking nothing matters or counts (although admittedly not many nihilistic people have a community to be nice to in the first place but yeah).
sorry I come off as an angry asshole, today was a long day
Stop mixing up belief in a God with living your life based only by the code of a certain book or set religion. It's not that cut and dry and doesn't apply to everyone who is a theist.
My take on this is a little different.
I don't think "self" exists, as you said, we are just a lot of atoms organized in a very specific way (that's constantly changing through mindless interaction). So, i view myself as a selfless machine endowed with self-awareness and consciousness, but not really in control of my own doing. I also see others like this.
Going all the way through this, what I see is that most people are confused about our reality, about ourselves and about what matter. It doesn't matter what you believe, what it matter is what the reality is. And as far as our collective has been able to find out, we are just mindless atoms in an purposeless reality.
But that doesn't take me to nihilism, because after you understood you insignificant place on our reality, it's time to understand our significance. As far as we know, we are the universe trying to understand itself, and that make us unique. And the fact that feelings happen in a machine is such a amazing fact, that we should also value that.
So from that point of view, i have taken two principles:
1- We should keep on our quest to understand our universe (and ourselves) better
2- We should keep on feeling. But as we will mostly agree, we should want to have good feelings, not bad ones.
From this you can derive pursuit of philosophy/science and morality.
Another logical conclusion, that i think most people miss about being a machine, is how fundamental ideas are. If you pay attention to your everyday life, you can easily spot how ideas are what make people "good" or "bad", ideas are what hold people back, or help people achieve their potential. Your ideas are, fundamentally, just connections on your brain, so they are what really makes you, and what act for you. So we should try our best (considering both principles stated above) to find and distribute good ideas. Because ideas are what change the world, not people. That's why it is important to have open discussions about everything with everyone, without your ego (that is a illusion) - with open mind, so you can try to change your and other people's ideas for better ones.
I don't think "self" exists, as you said, we are just a lot of atoms organized in a very specific way (that's constantly changing through mindless interaction). So, i view myself as a selfless machine endowed with self-awareness and consciousness, but not really in control of my own doing. I also see others like this.
Going all the way through this, what I see is that most people are confused about our reality, about ourselves and about what matter. It doesn't matter what you believe, what it matter is what the reality is. And as far as our collective has been able to find out, we are just mindless atoms in an purposeless reality.
But that doesn't take me to nihilism, because after you understood you insignificant place on our reality, it's time to understand our significance. As far as we know, we are the universe trying to understand itself, and that make us unique. And the fact that feelings happen in a machine is such a amazing fact, that we should also value that.
So from that point of view, i have taken two principles:
1- We should keep on our quest to understand our universe (and ourselves) better
2- We should keep on feeling. But as we will mostly agree, we should want to have good feelings, not bad ones.
From this you can derive pursuit of philosophy/science and morality.
Another logical conclusion, that i think most people miss about being a machine, is how fundamental ideas are. If you pay attention to your everyday life, you can easily spot how ideas are what make people "good" or "bad", ideas are what hold people back, or help people achieve their potential. Your ideas are, fundamentally, just connections on your brain, so they are what really makes you, and what act for you. So we should try our best (considering both principles stated above) to find and distribute good ideas. Because ideas are what change the world, not people. That's why it is important to have open discussions about everything with everyone, without your ego (that is a illusion) - with open mind, so you can try to change your and other people's ideas for better ones.
astroturfing
Member
your argument(s) aren't very convincing imo.. you really want to ask "how can something come from nothing?" and at the same time believe in a creator god that came from nothing? you realize how silly that seems, right?
if a god could always exist or come from nothing, why couldn't the universe/multiverse? why is it required to be a creator entity with a personality..? i don't get it lol.
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
This is exactly what I was referring to in my other post. Atheists wearing their misery on their sleeves annoy me, and if anything are being affected by religion without even knowing it - the attitude that religion and happiness are tied is so ingrained culturally that they play up their misery despite life offering plenty of joy without a god.
If you had never encountered a single religious belief in your life, would you really think that life was meaningless?
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Why would you want to be an atheist over an agnostic? You don't know...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rheO4RWrAUs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rheO4RWrAUs
cereal_killerxx
Junior Member
I'm a follower of Jesus not because it makes me a better person, but because I know that I'm seriously messed up and in need of a savior.
And just know that no matter what you believe in bro, I love you.
ThusZarathustra
Member
Can something come from nothing? Are hats ants? Does the quick brown fox jump over the lazy dog? Does the seeming paradox of existence prove anything beyond the anthropic principle? Is making claims about a dieties existence defining all meaning utterly foolish when you don't have a reliable working model for what is "something" and what is "nothing" outside of vague pseudo-religious bullshit?
Also OP:
OP you don't have to follow anything. Who's forcing you to? You can make up your own morality if you want. Just be aware of the consequences because we have laws in place. Oh and people may look at you funny if you act in a way that's different from the norm. There are some things that most people will agree on.
But FYI, considering we can safely disagree with the concepts of morality imposed by gods and religious scriptures (and with good reason), can you really say these things are objective in their understand of morality?
OP you don't have to follow anything. Who's forcing you to? You can make up your own morality if you want. Just be aware of the consequences because we have laws in place. Oh and people may look at you funny if you act in a way that's different from the norm. There are some things that most people will agree on.
But FYI, considering we can safely disagree with the concepts of morality imposed by gods and religious scriptures (and with good reason), can you really say these things are objective in their understand of morality?
The_blonde_and_blue
Member
Great way to start a thoughtful response.
PdotMichael
Banned
The biggest problem some people have that believing in god and the lack of that believe are somehow equal thoughts. It isn't.
Because it's the same soup.
Because it's the same soup.
^ This.
Meaning is subjective and arbitrary. Even among religious individuals you'll find vast differences between different people on how meaningful individual aspects of life are, even differences in how important they consider god.
I think your premise is incorrect OP. Choosing to find meaning in different ways is not at all the same as saying there's no meaning to anything.
Abstruse Moose
Member
I love seeing theists bring this up. It's mind boggling.
Mr Waluigi
Banned
I dunno man, even when I was still an atheist I didn't care about this. On the contrary, death is pretty neat in itself. Every matter in your body has existed for billion of years, and after your death will go back to the earth, to dissolve and merge with many other things, and in a billion years the matter that was your body will not have been destroyed, regardless of how it may have been consumed, digested and torn apart.
Consciousness is neat too but it has an expiration date. Countless sentient beings die every day, every month, every year, that has been the case for countless ages and will remain the case for a while too. Just enjoy your time here while your brain is still a thing.
I know that's a sort of morbid mentality but I've lived fine with it.
Deserted Maniac Island
Member
First off atheism is a reaction to theism (Without it, atheism wouldn't exist). Atheism (At least the way I see it) is rejection of religious institutions, and not a strict belief in lack of god(s). And you can't separate culture from religion (They are closely dependent in each other), because the term religion is one we give systems of belief, thus everyone in a given culture has the values, whether or not you believe in god(s). For example: You got to work, like everyone else, you socialize, you have your hobbies, you participate in cultural activities like any person with any religious belief. This is the meaning of life for this particular culture.
If you look at religion in the West, it's "secularized," even deemed it own separate category, but in other places in the world, religion is just religion, and are not a set of literal beliefs, but a set of symbolic communal beliefs (That are logical to the particular culture).
In short, people don't engage in religion because they want to go to heaven, but they participate because the symbolic values it has. In the west, the primary "Meaning of life" is economic and not religious.
If you look at religion in the West, it's "secularized," even deemed it own separate category, but in other places in the world, religion is just religion, and are not a set of literal beliefs, but a set of symbolic communal beliefs (That are logical to the particular culture).
In short, people don't engage in religion because they want to go to heaven, but they participate because the symbolic values it has. In the west, the primary "Meaning of life" is economic and not religious.
Lister
Banned
Well it's not really arbritary. Religious people will try to tell you that their morals come from the Bible, but that's circular. The Bible speaks of morals that were part of the social construct in a particular palce and time.
Moral values are what society decide they are. We no longer have people burning other people at the stake for not believing in Jesus, because society has, at some point, decreed that that kind of thing is not morally correct.
Most of that work, by the way, was done by humanists, dragging the savages and their bronze age beliefs kicking and screaming into the modern era.
They're not mutually exclusive.
Well, to be honest, your answer is pretty unconvincing as well. Hence I think his point that Agnosticism is the better answer.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
1. Acknowledge that the maximization of "health/safety/happiness/well-being/prosperity/whatever you want to call it" for the individual/community is a moral truth and in humanity's best interest.
2. The rest of morality and any such moral values can be derived from that.
Brian Griffin
Member
The way I see it, this would all be true if we didn't have feelings, but we do. Humans and many other animals can feel happiness and pain and these things make us feel good and bad respectively. Because of this the Golden Rule and empathy for others make a pretty solid basis for the meaning of life and morality IMO. Minimize the pain and suffering of yourself and others while also trying to maximize the happiness and pleasure of yourself and others.
Yeah, this.
Lister
Banned
That's not right. Atheism is exactly a lack of belief in deities. It's right ther ein the definition.
It's also the correct logical position. You do not assume that somehting exists without evidence (as the religious do), nor should you pretend to be paralized by the possibility of the incredible (as agnostics tend to do), you simply assume anull state until evidence requires you to alter that assumption.
Fenderputty
Banned
This post makes almost zero sense. If you're messed up and in need of a saviour you think your belief in God makes you a better person. Which is scary as fuck.
The implication was that one needs faith to lead a moral and meaningful life. You agreed with that implication.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I think you need to ask yourself: Why do you feel 'meaning' must be imposed from without to have any value?
I don't see the link OP.
I mean in its all words and semantics at the end of the day but understanding the universe operates on laws t hat require no God doesn't automatically mean "I have no morals I'm going to steal your car".
Behaviour is separate. Plenty of religious folks will steal or behave in otherwise immoral ways.
I'm not religious but I'm very moral and see that as the foundation of interaction between living creatures.
I mean in its all words and semantics at the end of the day but understanding the universe operates on laws t hat require no God doesn't automatically mean "I have no morals I'm going to steal your car".
Behaviour is separate. Plenty of religious folks will steal or behave in otherwise immoral ways.
I'm not religious but I'm very moral and see that as the foundation of interaction between living creatures.
You can apply the same argument to god. Where did he come from if something can't come from nothing? If you say atheism is one of the most stupid things out there, I can easily turn this around on you.
Furthermore, do you adhere to a specific religion? If you do, keep reading, otherwise ignore.
If you adhere to a specific one, why? How do you know your specific god is the true starting point?
Uhh how do you know you're messed up?
We see the world through our own lens. Everything that we know and perceive is formed through our brains. So I think we have unrealistic expectations to what reality should be because we only have our perspective as Earthlings. Nobody should be getting their universal views from anything unscientific because you're just fooling yourself. If you do get your views from facts and evidence then you'll be enlightened by the realization that everything in the universe is connected.
Whatever reality turns out to be, we should be content with the fact that we are literally the universe experiencing itself. The older I become the more I abandon the idea of individuality; it's a bit of a joke. You, me, and everyone we know are related genetically and the matter that makes us up (including our consciousness) will be jumbled up into oblivion as it once was. The truth is we form a larger entity together and through one perspective can be considered God ourselves.
Is their an underlying divine purpose for our existence? Who knows, but why does it have to be? I don't understand why that bothers people. When you just observe universe there's plenty of substance there to be wowed over.
Whatever reality turns out to be, we should be content with the fact that we are literally the universe experiencing itself. The older I become the more I abandon the idea of individuality; it's a bit of a joke. You, me, and everyone we know are related genetically and the matter that makes us up (including our consciousness) will be jumbled up into oblivion as it once was. The truth is we form a larger entity together and through one perspective can be considered God ourselves.
Is their an underlying divine purpose for our existence? Who knows, but why does it have to be? I don't understand why that bothers people. When you just observe universe there's plenty of substance there to be wowed over.
CornBurrito
Member
So you're saying that theists also get meaning and morality from somewhere besides just their holy book of choice?
potatohead
Member
Lol wat?
If you can't find meaning in your own life and among other people without religion that doesn't mean other people can't.
Sorry but try again next time.
I'm not even athiest, I don't give a fuck about the topic so I'm basically agnostic, but it upsets me to see people make statements on the beliefs and values of others based on their own belief system.
You pretty much said that athiests cannot find value in life "just because I can't do the same." That's just sad.
80s Bad Guy
Banned
Most Athiests I know detest Agnostics as fooling themselves with a half-measure. Atheism, they claim, is binary. You either believe there is something out there that directly caused our existence to occur or not.
I find myself leaning more Agnostic as I grow old (Pascal's Wager) but saying they are close enough is not really true.
Funyarinpa
Member
There indeed is no meaning or lasting influence relative to the physical world which has borne the world of thought.
However, we can still influence the world of thought, can't we? That's what we should strive for: The collaborative illusion -or is it a higher order of being?- we all share is what we CAN have significant influence on, and what we should strive to change.
However, we can still influence the world of thought, can't we? That's what we should strive for: The collaborative illusion -or is it a higher order of being?- we all share is what we CAN have significant influence on, and what we should strive to change.
astroturfing
Member
i don't know. working in a hospital has made me miserable in my atheism i guess. seeing so much pointless suffering, cold-hearted nurses and doctors, dead kids etc. also i almost died last year myself, was hooked up to a ventilator and the whole works.. that really made me realize how pointless everything is and death is the only thing that's certain, and can happen at any moment. i don't understand hope anymore, really. sorry if im annoying.
also this chronic back pain is fucking killing me, non-stop agony for 16 years straight day and night now with no end in sight. don't you tell me i can't be miserable, goddamnit.
Lister
Banned
Stuff comes from nothing all the time. Look up vacuum fluctuations or the casimir effect. Nature. She's full of wonders.
CornBurrito
Member
Why would you believe in evolution over nothing? You don't know...
Why would you believe that Athena/Loki/Thor/Nyarlthotep doesn't exist over being agnostic about it. You don't know...
Life is meaningless. Everything we do in our lives is pointless.
But i forget about it when i'm having fun. So, let's have fun while we can.
I could kill, rape, steal, do whatever i want knowing no god would ever punish me.
But i don't want to cause suffering to anyone. Because you know, empathy. Also doing these things would lead to consequences like prision, horrible death, etc.
But i forget about it when i'm having fun. So, let's have fun while we can.
I could kill, rape, steal, do whatever i want knowing no god would ever punish me.
But i don't want to cause suffering to anyone. Because you know, empathy. Also doing these things would lead to consequences like prision, horrible death, etc.
The invention of the "Atheism" word is a reaction, not the concept itself. Atheism is just the rejection of believing in a god without sufficient evidence.
While i agree you can't separate religion from culture, you can have culture without religion, so they're not really dependent.
People engage in religion because they are taught to, or they are looking for a meaning and do not have good information on how to find it.
Mr Waluigi
Banned
I don't think you understood what he meant.
Jesus' philosophy is very appealing and boils down to "don't be an asshole". But it's very difficult to follow, so the belief that it has a higher purpose (and, on top of that, is what God literally wants) helps making it for something perceptively more important than just satisfying one's ego (which is what most people are nice for - it feels good).
edit: maybe I need to make this clear even if you must know this since Christianity is all over the place already, but Jesus' philosophy isn't "don't be an asshole" as much as "let everyone use you like a dirty towel". Hence why it is appealing in how pacifist it is, yet difficult to follow for obvious reasons. Belief that it has a higher purpose helps one distance themselves from, well, themselves.
I didn't say a god created it, I'm merely stating why one state of mind is considered to be much more ludicrous than the other. But to answer your question, I don't know. And that's the thing. As opposed to gnostic atheists, I don't claim to know nor do I actively reject everything that doesn't fit my view. Maybe this higher being or these higher beings in this example wouldn't be restraint by quantum physics rules from our universe - and multiverses. We are. Which one is less ridiculous: an endless cycle without a beginning or a start created/set in motion by higher being(s)?
See above.
Sorc3r3r
Member
The argument you were quoting just underline how much in the dark that poster is about a very basic theology.
No, I'm not going to answer to that argument, English is not my native language so is hard to have a perfectly understandable discussion, we will go off topic, may become useful for who is curious about that argument to begin to approach metaphysic and theology.
ThusZarathustra
Member
You want to really learn how "something" came from "nothing"? Study science. Cause and effect. One thing transforming into another. Nothing is ever created or destroyed, it just changes states.
How "something" came from "nothing" is not a religious or philosophical question, but a logistical one.
Seems to me those are the type of people would be snobbish assholes even without atheism.
How "something" came from "nothing" is not a religious or philosophical question, but a logistical one.
Seems to me those are the type of people would be snobbish assholes even without atheism.
Lister
Banned
Agnosticism is a statement on our ability to answer the quesiton, not necessarily a position on the answer.
An agnostic says, there is no way to know, and could be a believer non the less, or an atheists, assuming dieties not to exist until evidence contradicts this (the logical positon).
Everything in the OP is pure silliness. It discounts the simple fact of human reality and experience.
I can feel pain, joy, happiness, unhappiness, and by empathy I can understand how they affect others. All these things are part of my experienced reality, and they don't need any reason behind them. I therefore choose to believe in things like kindness, selflessness, respect, conscience, goodness, and love. Choosing them, I create my own meaning. Only a psychopath would claim that my love of my family is meaningless because it's 'just atoms'.
Also people who claim they would be monsters without God threatening with hell scare the hell out of me.
I can feel pain, joy, happiness, unhappiness, and by empathy I can understand how they affect others. All these things are part of my experienced reality, and they don't need any reason behind them. I therefore choose to believe in things like kindness, selflessness, respect, conscience, goodness, and love. Choosing them, I create my own meaning. Only a psychopath would claim that my love of my family is meaningless because it's 'just atoms'.
Also people who claim they would be monsters without God threatening with hell scare the hell out of me.
Funyarinpa
Member
I'm as sorry as I can be to hear that. I wish you the best of luck.
Of course, it's acceptable to feel miserable. Especially in your case. We aren't arguing against misery itself, we are arguing against misery born from the lack of a creative god. Is your misery due to your lack of belief, or your back pain? We're discussing existence of different miseries.
Yes, but stuff comes from nothing due to physical properties of the universe. The question is, how were these properties created (or who created them)?
It's a never ending line of questioning, and ultimately I doubt humans will arrive at an answer if we constantly look through a materialistic lens.
It's worth noting that it's been my experience that most people who self-identify as atheist are technically very mildly agnostic but use the term "atheist" because that's simply the most commonly used label. Don't get too hung up on the semantics.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
That howling chaos somehow developed into humans who have consciousness. A pile of mud does not have the ability to perceive and understand the environment that it exists in. You have consciousness. Enjoy it, and help others enjoy theirs, too.
I genuinely am scared that some religious people think like this.
I don't go raping because I am a good human being. Knowing you are one crisis of faith away from being a psychopath tells me you aren't a mentally stable person...
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