Support NeoGAF

[Fafalada]

So no matter how you slice it the reliance on consoles holds back the potential of what you can do on a PC.

That doesn't even make sense. The whole point is that making high-end/high-budget PC exclusives is not viable, period. All consoles bring to the table is enabling the existence of high-budget PC games through multi-platform.

More importantly there's plenty of smaller-budget PC games that aren't on consoles that have unrestricted hw-access to the platform. I realize Gaf thinks those are not "real games", but nothing console-related holds those games back either (budgets, and trying to capture wider audience on PC however - does).

 

[Bad_Boy]

I'd pay 450-500 for this if it comes in 2017. I mean the cheapest 4k blu-ray player is like 400 right now and back ordered.

 

[Wishmaster92]

I dropped a game hint yesterday no one caught on.



No clue there was absolutely no mention of a different controller.



IF there was any type of trade in program it would be from retailers and would only be about $100 or so due to a likely OG PS4 price drop.

I also verified the other information but will not drop it today because of the dates (April 1st) implications.

Nooo come on we all know you're verified =(

 

[Muzicfreq]

So the only difference between a PS3 and PS4 is AA, shadows, textures, resolution and lighting?

For the most part, yes.
Some games add in much higher poly counts and can handle new tricks. It's not a drastic leap like PS1->2->3
This is why people kinda feel underwhelmed by the differences.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Following this to its logical conclusion PC's hold themselves back by virtue of not all PC owners having a Titan and people holding on to their 5 year old GPU.

Well it's the problem with iterative releases where the high end is never really exploited. It's used for enhancement and polish but never fully utilized. Of course the number of users with those high end GPUs are small, but that doesn't negate the fact that a significant majority of sales come from the console version. They rely on that console version and it's no coincidence that every time we have a new generation, not just this one, we get a sudden jump in visual fidelity across the board. I mean if we're going to argue it's about the number of users with what hardware they have which holds it back, that still points to the consoles.

 

[CyberPunked]

If dev put a little more effort, they should make 4K version and 1080p version with better AA, shadows all the Jazz.
Yup, dev going to make 3 different setting profile for one game from now on, PS4, PS4K with 4K tv, PS4K without 4K tv.

I don't think you understand the difficulty of getting modern games to run in 4K. If this thing does have an equivalent to 970 GPU, then they're going to have to turn a lot more than AA and shadows down.

 

[OsirisBlack]

David Cage's Detroid?

To clarify, his quote was "...I'm living to 102 and then dying". The complete sentence is "I'm living to 102 and then dying like the city of Detroit.."

^^

 

[the_lizard]

God damn it Sony. After a winning generation you're supposed to WAIT until the next generation to get cocky, not force the next generation upon us.

 

[Wishmaster92]

^^

Detroit is taking advantage? Wow that 3d dof goodness.

 

[Marty Chinn]

That doesn't even make sense. The whole point is that making high-end/high-budget PC exclusives is not viable, period. All consoles bring to the table is enabling the existence of high-budget PC games through multi-platform.

More importantly there's plenty of smaller-budget PC games that aren't on consoles that have unrestricted hw-access to the platform. I realize Gaf thinks those are not "real games", but nothing console-related holds those games back either (budgets, and trying to capture wider audience on PC however - does).

How does it not make sense? We're more or less saying the same thing. High quality AAA visuals are limited based on the financial realities of needing a console version to make it financially possible. You don't see PC games pushing the bleeding edge in visuals that exceed what a console could do because it wouldn't be financially viable. Thus consoles hold that potential back because they are one of the base line targets that the game needs to run on for financial reasons. Those smaller budget indie games typically aren't pushing the GPU potential in graphics fidelity. We're saying the same thing.

 

[wapplew]

I don't think you understand the difficulty of getting modern games to run in 4K. If this thing does have an equivalent to 970 GPU, then they're going to have to turn a lot more than AA and shadows down.

Bad example I guess.
I mean games like FIFA or NBA2K that already run 1080/60 on PS4, the PS4K version need to have multiple setting profile for people have 4K tv and without.
Or maybe dev just leave it 1080/60 without any improvement for those who don't own 4K tv.

 

[Melchiah]

Pretty much this.

I asked my group of friends who play together on PS4 that what do they think: "but you can play all the coming games on PS4, right? Then who gives a shit". This was pretty much the same answer from all of them. All pretty casual, only play R6, Battlfront and Project Cars.

The casuals won't care. The old console guard calls for the end of the world.

I imagine the existence of PS4K won't be an issue to the more casual players. If anything, the possible price decrease of the PS4 will be welcomed, and perhaps drive more people to buy the system.

 

[Raistlin]

Unless you are buying a PS4 to watch 4K blu-rays and think upscaled games are the best thing since sliced bread, nothing.

The graphics will be better regardless of your TV's resolution.

Upscaled then downscaled back is going to have no difference in result of visual fidelity. It's only when rendered at a higher res and then downscaled do you get visual improvements.

While this is true, it's also assuming the only visual upgrade the system would offer is resolution. That is obviously not the case.

 

[jimbobsmells]

God damn it Sony. After a winning generation you're supposed to WAIT until the next generation to get cocky, not force the next generation upon us.

Not forcing you.
Not a new generation.

 

[Melchiah]

The graphics will be better regardless of your TV's resolution.

Hopefully, as there wouldn''t be a reason for me to buy it otherwise.

 

[vpance]

David Cage's Detroid?

To clarify, his quote was "...I'm living to 102 and then dying". The complete sentence is "I'm living to 102 and then dying like the city of Detroit.."

Oh fuck. Cage stays winning

 

[GamerMax73]

Well it's the problem with iterative releases where the high end is never really exploited.

Well back in to the territory of the great unknown and speculation, but I'd say it depends on how an iterative release model plays out. If we looked at supporting 2 consoles going forward, an high model and a low model, then surely each model starts life as the high model and ends its life as the low model? This being the case, surely when it is its turn to be the low model it would by definition start being pushed to keep up with the new high model?

PS4 (low model - being pushed), PS4.5 (high model - not being pushed)
PS4.5 (low model - being pushed), PS5 (high model - not being pushed)

Not too dissimilar to PS3 being pushed to play cross gen PS4 titles (eg. AC:IV) but without such a wide hardware gap between models in terms of both raw computing power and architectural differences.

If this is real we need Sony to give us some indication of their general plans going forwards. Eg, roughly what we can expect when PS5 hits (we don't need to know the when or specs or anything concrete about PS5 itself). The worst they can do is release a higher spec PS4 with no indication of what direction the Playstation platform is now headed in.

 

[Marty Chinn]

While this is true, it's also assuming the only visual upgrade the system would offer is resolution. That is obviously not the case.

I misread the post. I was under the assumption that he was saying even if it upscaled and you had a 1080p, it would be an improvement. I wasn't factoring in better effects which would increase the visual fidelity.

Well back in to the territory of the great unknown and speculation, but I'd say it depends on how an iterative release model plays out. If we looked at supporting 2 consoles going forward, an high model and a low model, then surely each model starts life as the high model and ends its life as the low model? This being the case, surely when it is its turn to be the low model it would by definition start being pushed to keep up with the new high model?

PS4 (low model - being pushed), PS4.5 (high model - not being pushed)
PS4.5 (low model - being pushed), PS5 (high model - not being pushed)

Not too dissimilar to PS3 being pushed to play cross gen PS4 titles (eg. AC:IV) but without such a wide hardware gap between models in terms of both raw computing power and architectural differences.

Ya, the big unknown right now is what is the new business model? Are we doing one mid-generation upgrade? Are we doing multiple upgrades in a generation? Are we getting rid of generations?

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Well it's the problem with iterative releases where the high end is never really exploited. It's used for enhancement and polish but never fully utilized. Of course the number of users with those high end GPUs are small, but that doesn't negate the fact that a significant majority of sales come from the console version. They rely on that console version and it's no coincidence that every time we have a new generation, not just this one, we get a sudden jump in visual fidelity across the board. I mean if we're going to argue it's about the number of users with what hardware they have which holds it back, that still points to the consoles.

No it won't since there are not a huge number of high end PC user.
So it still make no sense to make a high end PC game only and push hardware .
Either way you look at it consoles are not holding back PC .
They get all the benefits from consoles gamers money .

 

[Omnistalgic]

David Cage's Detroid?

To clarify, his quote was "...I'm living to 102 and then dying". The complete sentence is "I'm living to 102 and then dying like the city of Detroit.."

Detective at work! Nice job man

 

[Crimson_Gold]

No it won't since there are not a huge number of high end PC user.
So it still make no sense to make a high end PC game only and push hardware .
Either way you look at it consoles are not holding back PC .
They get all the benefits from consoles gamers money .

Steam sales are courtesy of us. Lol

 

[Marty Chinn]

No it won't since there are not a huge number of high end PC user.
So it still make no sense to make a high end PC game only and push hardware .
Either way you look at it consoles are not holding back PC .
They get all the benefits from consoles gamers money .

Ok, so you're saying that the most common and widely used GPU currently just happens to be equivalent in performance to around a Radeon 7870 or lower then right? It's just a coincidence that the common GPU is in line with the console hardware. Gotcha. Show me the numbers that show that and show me the numbers that the bulk of sales happened at the exact same time of the new generation of consoles.

 

[Raistlin]

I misread the post. I was under the assumption that he was saying even if it upscaled and you had a 1080p, it would be an improvement. I wasn't factoring in better effects which would increase the visual fidelity.

No prob. Potentially framerates could be better too. Matters how many extra effects they're throwing in.



One related point I will add strictly regarding resolution ... it's also quite possible a game could target the same rendering resolution on both consoles, with the PS4K version have higher quality AA, etc. In such a scenario, the PS4K version would still look better on a 1080p display even with all other things being equal.

 

[PdotMichael]

No it won't since there are not a huge number of high end PC user.
So it still make no sense to make a high end PC game only and push hardware .
Either way you look at it consoles are not holding back PC .
They get all the benefits from consoles gamers money .

Well, PC exclusive games are famous for pushing the hardware limits.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Hmmm..think I'm actually starting to get hyped now. I kinda want a new ps4. Gta6 looking like uncharted 4 and the devs actually getting it to run somewhat stable? I'm down. I just hope an upgraded DS4 is along with the package. My goodness, what with the best God of War look like?!

Only downside for me, I was going to get the uncharted bundle as my 2nd ps4 to play destiny with my wife;-(

 

[Lorcain]

It will be interesting to see if the market will support iterative consoles in a single generation. Outside of Nintendo handhelds, it hasn't worked well.

I've always appreciated the closed box architecture of consoles that don't require me to make costly upgrades every couple of years to stay current with the most recent games. It's one of the advantages consoles have over PC gaming. Lower cost of entry and lower cost overall at the price of less graphical horsepower. If that changes, and the market supports it, it might blur the lines between consoles and PCs (and Steam machines).

 

[Wishmaster92]

One step closer to bullshot quality with ps4k.

 

[DeepEnigma]

David Cage's Detroid?

To clarify, his quote was "...I'm living to 102 and then dying". The complete sentence is "I'm living to 102 and then dying like the city of Detroit.."

Nice!

 

[MR ARCADE FOREVER]

So the only difference between a PS3 and PS4 is AA, shadows, textures, resolution and lighting?

Rise of the Tomb Raider for Xbox 360 and Xone answers your question

 

[GlamFM]

It will be interesting to see if the market will support iterative consoles in a single generation. Outside of Nintendo handhelds, it hasn't worked well.

It was also never really tried.

Only time I can think of is the 32x and that was not really the same thing.

Rise of the Tomb Raider for Xbox 360 and Xone answers your question

The gap in power is absolutely not comparable.

Not one bit.

 

[Marty Chinn]

It will be interesting to see if the market will support iterative consoles in a single generation. Outside of Nintendo handhelds, it hasn't worked well.

It hasn't even worked for Nintendo. The upgraded consoles were never really utilized. It just hasn't hurt them either.

 

[Obliterator]

.....so Sony just sat down and listed all these titles out for you? Mmhm

 

[Feral Gingy]

God damn it Sony. After a winning generation you're supposed to WAIT until the next generation to get cocky, not force the next generation upon us.

PS4K isn't next gen. It's... pro-current gen... or something?

But definitely not next gen in my book

 

[Lord Error]

I don't think you understand the difficulty of getting modern games to run in 4K. If this thing does have an equivalent to 970 GPU, then they're going to have to turn a lot more than AA and shadows down.

I think that everyone who keeps repeating this forgets that the console could render natively at 1440p and then upscale that to full 4K, for a more visually demanding game that wants to support 4K resolution. The result would look much better than upscaling native 1080p to 4K.

 

[Shambalakan]

@OsirisBlack
Do you think there is a relation between PS4K and PD's silence about Gran Turismo Sport?

 

[Muzicfreq]

One step closer to bullshot quality with ps4k.

Bullshot? -cough-Uncharted4-cough-

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Ok, so you're saying that the most common and widely used GPU currently just happens to be equivalent in performance to around a Radeon 7870 or lower then right? It's just a coincidence that the common GPU is in line with the console hardware. Gotcha. Show me the numbers that show that and show me the numbers that the bulk of sales happened at the exact same time of the new generation of consoles.

You seem to be missing the point .
Hardware is a secondary factor in all of this .
Answer me this question is the consumer base on PC big enough for devs to push hardware .
If consoles were not around what min spec would devs target on PC .

 

[DeepEnigma]

Bullshot? -cough-Uncharted4-cough-

Yeah, I was about to say. There is nothing in that pic that I can question Cage and Co. not getting to look like on the PS4 judging by what they did with Beyond and the PS3.

Oh, and that little visual gem soon called UC4 as mentioned.

 

[OsirisBlack]

.....so Sony just sat down and listed all these titles out for you? Mmhm

Well not just me.

@OsirisBlack
Do you think there is a relation between PS4K and PD's silence about Gran Turismo Sport?

No idea I really doubt they would hold back info for any game seeing as they will work on both systems.

 

[SmiteOfHand]

So the only difference between a PS3 and PS4 is AA, shadows, textures, resolution and lighting?

The difference is 2 completely different hardware architectures spread 7 years apart. A completely different scenario from PS4 and PS4K.

 

[cyberheater]

So the only difference between a PS3 and PS4 is AA, shadows, textures, resolution and lighting?

Well in a way he's not wrong is he. A modern GPU bolted onto a PS3 would give you similar looking games. It's not like the CPU in the PS4 is a big step up Cell.

 

[MR ARCADE FOREVER]

It was also never really tried.

Only time I can think of is the 32x and that was not really the same thing.



The gap in power is absolutely not comparable.

Not one bit.

That gap in power resulted in the same exactly game with better resolution, textures, and lightning. That is my point

 

[Muzicfreq]

You seem to be missing the point .
Hardware is a secondary factor in all of this .
Answer me this question is the consumer base on PC bigger enough for devs to push hardware .

Add in that the game split is huge on what people play. some really old games and some games like LoL, ect. and MMOs

Sure there's Battlefield but even a 750ti and an i3 can run that and look decent at good framerates

EDIT: ALSO there's the artistic vision. Let's be honest if they wanted to, Fallout4 could have looked way way better even on consoles... but that.. Bethesda at it's finest at using a bad game engine.

 

[Obliterator]

Well not just me.

Why would Sony sit down this far in advance with a large group of retailers and list all these titles? Thats not something that needs to be known on the retail end at the moment unless they are announcing within the month or so

 

[Curufinwe]

I dropped a game hint yesterday no one caught on.



No clue there was absolutely no mention of a different controller.



IF there was any type of trade in program it would be from retailers and would only be about $100 or so due to a likely OG PS4 price drop.

I also verified the other information but will not drop it today because of the dates (April 1st) implications.

$100 sounds good for my PS4 since the protection plan I got for it expires next year.

Or maybe I could give it to my niece as a reward if she ever manages to finish high school.

 

[GlamFM]

That gap in power resulted in the same exactly game with better resolution, textures, and lightning. That is my point

Sorry, I misunderstood.

 

[LizardKing]

I'm honestly shocked at all the outrage about this. Not only is this how PCs work and it's fine, Nintendo has been doing this for years with the handhelds back to GBC and very few people complained. This isn't really a new concept.

 

[GlamFM]

I'm honestly shocked at all the outrage about this. Not only is this how PCs work and it's fine, Nintendo has been doing this for years with the handhelds back to GBC and very few people complained. This isn't really a new concept.

It´s new to home consoles to be fair.

Change usually scares a lot of people.

It will calm down, people will get used to it.

I even think that in the long run people will embrace it - even the outrage crew in this very thread.

 

[Jabba]

Following this to its logical conclusion PC's hold themselves back by virtue of not all PC owners having a Titan and people holding on to their 5 year old GPU.

This is also part of the issue that people forget.

On another side of the above, pc basline is ever moving onward, while the PS4 remains stagnant hardware wise. Eventually the console baseline becomes intolerable for many that are willing to keep or stay above the pc baseline. This iterative console approach, if accepted will be the same opportunity really.

As for my personal feelings, I have enough disposable income, I'd get one possibly. It really depends on how things pan out. As for me going to pc, my thoughts aren't exactly what they should be. Let me say, I'm not thinking straight on pc even after having two good pc's that were definitely above the console baseline for their time. Maybe I'll get outta that funk, WhoTF knows?

 

[Melchiah]

One step closer to bullshot quality with ps4k.

Quantic Dream doesn't tend to bullshit with their pre-release videos and images though, aside from higher resolution.

Here's a PS3 screenshot from Heavy Rain: