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Street Fighter V patch releasing March 28th, Alex on the 30th, more info
- Thread starter Dartastic
- Start date
OmnipotentO
Member
I'm guessing people doing them no problem know their way around a fighting game.
Some tips for beginners that don't know where to begin. If you have trouble with anyone's trial 2 try the following:
Break the combo into parts. Just focus on getting each part down individually.
repeat each part like 10 times in a row or until it becomes automatic.
Keep each part extremely simple at first. Something like jump-in kick into standing normal. Repeat just that part. Certain jumping attacks you have to connect really late in the jump so that you're able to connect a standing hard attack afterwards. Like right before landing.
Every trial combo can be broken down into parts and it's entirely up to you how you want to break it down. Do what's easiest for you. Then start combining parts a little at a time until you get the whole combo's button order into muscle memory. Then it's just a matter of timing the button presses in accordance with each part you already practiced.
Some examples of how I broke some trials down. Keeping them vague because a lot of characters share the general structure of them but the inputs could vary:
Crush counter into hard attack, then trigger into normal. A lot of trials have this. Repeated that a few times.
Normal linked into another normal then cancel into special. (Normal, normal xx special) pretty standard but going from say a medium normal into a light normal can be tricky sometimes. Nash and Alex trials come to mind.
Special move then link a normal afterwards. Usually a light attack. Get that timing down. Dhalsim Vega Chun and Nash I think had this.
Special into v trigger into special. Ken and Birdie come to mind .
BakedTanooki
Member
Am I blind? Where is the young Ryu costume? Only see the Ken one in the Shop
Can't find it either and was wondering the same. Seems like only a selection of costumes are currently available for some weird reason.
Edit: Chun-li and Ryu's story costumes are already unlocked apparently, going by what people below are saying.
Like I said a few pages ago, I can't do many of the later ones either simply because I keep confusing buttons and sequences when trying too hard. I simply lack the dexterity to press so many different buttons right after each other, especially when there is timing and speed involved as well. As such the trials are a huge turn-off for someone like me because they give me the feeling I'll never play well (which in this game is like getting multiple kills in CoD per spawn instead of simply one or two per match- which is the level I prefer).
Guess they become easier when you learned combos in actual battles over time because then you already have the mental and finger dexterity to handle these. Learning them this way just feels very artificial to me and a bit like learning to juggle for the sake of it instead of to become actually proficient at the game (which to me revolves far more around spacing, meter use and such).
Thanks by the way - this could be quite useful.
Maybe Capcom should have designed the trials so that they would allow us to do things this way (i.e. step by step, preferably in slow motion) instead of making them more of a test (instead of a learning tool) for your finger dexterity that only already proficient players can complete?
Edit: apologies for the double post, here's something from the premium costume thread to (hopefully) make you guys laugh:
Bueno...
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
There isn't a shortcut to combo proficiency. You just have to put in the work. At least they included a demonstration this time. You can see exactly what you're supposed to do. If you can't do the whole thing at once, you break it into pieces and practice them separately. If you're really new to the game it may very well take multiple days of practice to get it.
You already have them. They gave Ryu and Chun Li's story costumes away for free.
HeartlessNobody213
Member
It's automatically unlocked. Just choose it at the character select screen. Same with Chun-Li's police uniform.
BakedTanooki
Member
Oh you are right! Thanks
pineapplepizza
Member
How do you guys not see that his right leg is bending outwards like a normal human leg in SF3 but bending inwards in SFV.
Thank you, the model and posture feels so off. I'm worried about how Urien will turn out now :|
A lot of times it feels like Alex has no neck and was locked in some iron device/chamber since birth that formed his body into a rounded fridge with arms.
Since SF4, Capcom is in love with oversized delts
u have a great pointGuile walks in a completely impossible way and nobody complains about this.
Seriously, this bothers me a lot.
sixteen-bit
Member
Anyone have screenshots of the dark skin Laura alt color at the character select screen? I want to know if they fixed the discoloration around her hair that's present in color 3 and 6 before I spend FM.
I really fear for the upcoming DLC characters watching how Alex was made to be honest.
HeartlessNobody213
Member
I agree, but maybe that's because I didn't play that much of SF 3 so I don't have much history with the character. I'm really interested to see how Urien looks and plays after seeing Alex.
Tizoc
Member
imho he feels better than his SF3 ver. though that's because in here more of hisnormals are cancelable.
I was a little shocked to see that he did not retain his Close St. MK (wherein he does a short ranged knee attack).
BakedTanooki
Member
I am drunk as fuck and opened a lobby
Fight me. Id is BakedTanooki.
I will eat your anus
Fight me. Id is BakedTanooki.
I will eat your anus
DarkGiygas
Member
inv me? therealbdon
Fair enough, combos do take time to learn. That said, if Capcom really cares to use these trials to teach people like me (i.e. those that are interested in fighting games but who never managed to get the hang of combos) how to do combos, then instead of making them feel like a final dexterity test that will be very challenging to this target audience, they should instead have made them in such a way that they are actually a learning tool first that show what you did wrong in terms of timing etc.
Breaking longer combos down into smaller chunks should for instance not have to be done artificially by me but should have been built into the trial design itself, either by giving me 10 very short (ground-based) ones first (with FM as a reward for completing those so I don't feel like I'm left out when I get to 7 out of 10) and 10 longer ones that unlock when I mastered those (complete with a new FM reward).
Offering me a way to slow things down or pausing the action for me between succesful hits while doing the actual combo would have been extremely helpful as well, especially if doing the combos at full speed is what makes someone struggle at first. And yes, the videos do help but sometimes I still can't translate what I see the CPU do into the correct timing for when I have to press the buttons myself in real time.
So in short: I agree that learning combos requires practice but I don't feel that the current trials are motivating as a training tool to help learn the timing and button dexterity for them. They only serve as a dexterity test or brick wall that you keep throwing yourself against until you get through when they instead could have offered a more built-in type of assistance that warms you up for doing the actual combos at full speed in the later stages of the trial.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Every character has a few combos that are very short. That should be enough to get a feel for how to link a jump in to a ground attack canceled into a special. If you're and experienced gamer, you shouldn't have to slow anything down to learn something with 3 button presses, often the same button.
Yes, Capcom could have designed an incredibly deep, step by step tutorial for combos, but that's obviously not in the cards. You need to take responsibility for the motivation aspect. You want to learn combos, right? So start simple, master some 3 hit combos. This will both give you some tools to work with in gameplay as well as train your brain to recognize some of the timing elements involved in links and cancels. This is all the foundation you need to learn harder combos.
It would be cool if they let you do the combos at half speed and then gradually ramped up to full speed, and it might be an ideal way for some people to learn, but that shouldn't be necessary if you really want to learn.
I think this could also be true. I was tempted to say as much, but things work differently for different people so I didn't want to rule it out.
It does if you are still struggling with understanding the way combos work, like the moment in which attacks link and when they do not. That's the level I'm stuck at and I'm sure others as well, with questions like: why do some attacks lead to a combo and others not even if they look like they should? Did I press too quickly or too slowly when my combo failed? Etc. Slow motion and especially a pause that indicates when you need to hit the button for a succesful follow-up attack would be helpful to get over that hump I feel.
After that you should indeed be doing them at normal speed to really get the hang of them but like I said, I'm talking about learning how combos work for the first time, i.e. without prior SF combo knowledge. This, arguably, is a skill ceiiling that any new V player will run into at some point and one Capcom should address if they truly care to expand this series' user base beyond already proficient combo kings (that simply burn through the trials to get FM but possibly without really learning that much either).
I wonder if people like you who disagree with me on the trial design as tool vs test can still step into the shoes of someone like me who lacks your button dexterity - most of the later combos currently on offer feel like I'm having to tie my shoes with two left hands while a timer is running. Sure I could keep trying that for a few hours and eventually give up, but is that really the most effective way the game could teach me basic combo skills?
I learned how to do combos in old SFs by turning the turbo all the way down. It allowed me to understand the concept of canceling much better and to see the visual cues with the animation.
In terms of all of these intricate character tutorials and teaching tools people want in-game, there is only so much they can do before they hit a wall of diminishing returns for the programming resource investment. I just don't feel like the vast majority are realistic.
Theoretically, it would be amazing if they could walk you through very minute detail, move, situation, counter-strategy etc, but now you're asking them to cram an SF4 Bible-sized guidebook into an in-game tutorial mode. It's just not a feasible or worthwhile use of resources for those making the game. If you tell someone to sit down and build that in-game, that's a massive task. Not even considering the high probability the vast majority of users won't touch it.
Unfortunately, there's just some stuff you have to learn on your own or by community videos, combo timing included. Fortunately those are plentiful.
That being said a "too early" or "too late" notice in trial mode would be useful.
Theoretically, it would be amazing if they could walk you through very minute detail, move, situation, counter-strategy etc, but now you're asking them to cram an SF4 Bible-sized guidebook into an in-game tutorial mode. It's just not a feasible or worthwhile use of resources for those making the game. If you tell someone to sit down and build that in-game, that's a massive task. Not even considering the high probability the vast majority of users won't touch it.
Unfortunately, there's just some stuff you have to learn on your own or by community videos, combo timing included. Fortunately those are plentiful.
That being said a "too early" or "too late" notice in trial mode would be useful.
This, and perhaps some more easier trials (with their own reward) before they ramp things up (with longer strings, air attacks and V-trigger integration) are essentially all I'm asking for, despite my overly long explanation
I agree that the game can't be a be all / end all tool for fighting game mechanics, that would be asking too much. That said, these current trials are almost completely useless to anyone not already proficient at using combos. And between them and the insultingly basic opening tutorial that shows you how to move forward and backwards, I feel Capcom did have some viable options for designing more training tools without it requiring too much of the development team.
If they want new players to become interested in SF and not be intimidated from the get go, it would be a valuable investment to include some more (intelligent / interactive) tools I'd say (which videos, while useful, can never fully replace imo). The trials, if expanded upon, could be a good start.
I think I'll do that for SF5 on PC. Have my GPU cut the framerate in half to make Trials easier to do so I can learn them.
BakedTanooki
Member
I did
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
It still sounds to me like you think that a new player should be able to do long combos after a short time in training mode. That's unrealistic. If you are truly new then it should take weeks of work to come to grips with the combo system. Fortunately for new players, you don't need to know the best or longest combos to win a fight. You could be very dangerous with just a couple simple combos under your belt if you also play smart and understand the fundamental flow of a match. That ALSO takes time and experience and there is no shortcut.
This isn't what you want to hear, but serious playtime is the best way to learn and improve. You just have to be observant of what other people are doing.
You don't need to understand frame data or know complex combos to start playing well, so don't let combos be a barrier to entry if you like the game.
That reminds me of the trick you could do for SF4 and Marvel and a stick with turbo to pause the game quickly after each input to clear many of the combo trials. I cleared a bunch that way I would never have done in my lifetime, like some of the crazy FADC ones. Wasn't as useful for tight link ones, and it was also really long and tedious.
Well karin doesn't have a bad look so I don't feel that example fits.
The Lone Dragon
Member
Oh, cool. Didn't even know they'd do doing these for DLC characters.
sixteen-bit
Member
Garrett should beat them to the next one
I appreciate your view points here, I really do. Maybe it is my lack of motivation that is indeed the problem, not so much the trials itself. I'll try to apply some of your tips.
That said, to come back to it one last time: I can't help but keep thinking that modern (main stream) fighting games like this could do more to help new players get (and keep) motivated to learn the game's deeper mechanics instead of essentially rewarding their initial interest by throwing them in the deep end to see if they sink or swim.
I know this has always been the way that these games work, i.e. with the competition and larger community fulfilling the role of teachers, but maybe that is part of the reason why this genre has stayed relatively small and exclusive in terms of its user base. Maybe it simply leaves out anyone that is less inclined to look outside of an arguably self-contained product to learn a game's ins and outs?
Then again, maybe I'm just the exception here as a guy who is not necessarily new to fighting games or SF in particular but who somehow never managed to really grasp combos in any of the many games he played casually (quite possibly due to a lack of human competition). I even think 3rd Strike's parries are more natural and straightforward to learn than what appear to be arbitrarily assigned attack moves that can be linked in a combo if you're quick enough - perhaps I should conclude that I just don't get along with combos...
ClayKavalier
Banned
I wish there were more trials, ten isn't very many. I lot aren't very practical either, almost all of them begin with a jump-in. It'd be nice to have some that start with pokes, some hit-confirms that don't begin with a jump, etc. There are some of those, but I'd like to see more.
Ideally there'd be different types of combos and then a few examples. Like maybe the third trial is "high damage combo for when you land a jumping attack" and there's two or three different things you can do in that situation. Then the fourth is "hit-confirm you can use when you're right up in your opponent's face" and there's a few of those.
As it is I feel like the trials only give me a cursory view of what a character's options are and realistically I'm still going to need to look around online to see what else they're capable of.
Ideally there'd be different types of combos and then a few examples. Like maybe the third trial is "high damage combo for when you land a jumping attack" and there's two or three different things you can do in that situation. Then the fourth is "hit-confirm you can use when you're right up in your opponent's face" and there's a few of those.
As it is I feel like the trials only give me a cursory view of what a character's options are and realistically I'm still going to need to look around online to see what else they're capable of.
The problem is people thinking combos are so important.
Watch this match:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNlm1B-InHs
how many combos do you see compared to the amount of time spent thinking about the next move, spacing, using normals to control the opponent?
And one of my favorite moments:
http://gfycat.com/TestyHandmadeGhostshrimp
Combos are the most visible thing players can do, I guess, but it's far behind the importance of understanding the neutral game, your normals, your ranges, and the options your character has at any given moment.
Snake Eyes bullies fucking DAIGO with just light kicks and green hands.
You're absolutely right - I couldn't agree more and in fact, my own (casual, mostly combo-less, but still satisfying) experiences with fighting games over the years have made me gravitate naturally towards spacing, normal attacks, reading the opponent etc. (That said, I never played much Marvel because of its seemingly heavy reliance on long combos, so that series might be the exception?)
I only brought this topic (back) up because of Capcom's decision in IV and V to add combo trials as one of the few single player "learning tools" in the game as opposed to interactive tutorials that teach you those other things in some manner (if such a thing is even possible to design well of course). It's like Capcom themselves are putting an over-emphasis on combos this way, unless they only meant for them to be things that already dexterous players will run through once to see what's possible per character or something.
Yes, that's true but currently the first DLC character is unlocked for free until the real money Shop goes online. You can also buy "Story" costumes using in-game currency. Only the premium "Battle" costumes must be bought with real money.
Just some costumes.
Other than that yeah, you can get all the characters and various costumes with in game currency.
Imperfected
Member
The Trials confuse the shit out of me as a UI/UX designer.
You have a combo that has four steps in Trial #2/3. What? How is this so hard for you to grasp, Capcom? Trial #1 should be linking the first 2 hits of that combo. Trial #3 is linking the first 3 hits of the same combo. Trial #4 is linking all 4 hits of the combo.
You build the player up to what they're supposed to do and give them an obvious sense of progression. (You could also make Trial #2 the first two hits and Trial #3 the last two hits of a 4-hit combo, if the combo allows for it.) This is such a basic part of game design that I feel sort of embarrassed for having to type it out.
The best I can guess is they didn't want to "bore" experienced players by having anything other than front-to-back optimized combos in the Trials, but seriously, the Trials aren't really for those players, they probably went into Training Mode a month ago and worked out all their target combos to a high level of proficiency. This is basically an advanced tutorial, treat it like one.
You have a combo that has four steps in Trial #2/3. What? How is this so hard for you to grasp, Capcom? Trial #1 should be linking the first 2 hits of that combo. Trial #3 is linking the first 3 hits of the same combo. Trial #4 is linking all 4 hits of the combo.
You build the player up to what they're supposed to do and give them an obvious sense of progression. (You could also make Trial #2 the first two hits and Trial #3 the last two hits of a 4-hit combo, if the combo allows for it.) This is such a basic part of game design that I feel sort of embarrassed for having to type it out.
The best I can guess is they didn't want to "bore" experienced players by having anything other than front-to-back optimized combos in the Trials, but seriously, the Trials aren't really for those players, they probably went into Training Mode a month ago and worked out all their target combos to a high level of proficiency. This is basically an advanced tutorial, treat it like one.
hikarutilmitt
Member
The trials have existed since SFEX+@ on the PSone. They're designed to be some basic stuff that is kind of useful, then some more complex stuff that is usually fairly useful, then some stuff that's not necessarily useful, but shows you things that can be done in theory. They're not intended to be progression like you're describing. That's why you start with a couple of hits into a special, then work something similar into a super, then some weird shit that shows the timing for some moves to hit certain ways, whether they're optimized for damage or not. It also has a demo in this to show you how to do something.
I feel like the only misstep in this case may have bee Karin's #6 because, while it fits in with the progression for showing juggles, the timing on her moves needs a bit of explaining more than the demos show you.
potatohead
Member
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I don't think any fighting game has combo trials so granular they go from 2, to 3, to 4 hits in entirely different steps. The trials are not supposed to be tutorials on what combos are at the most basic level; they are challenges and are supposed to make players spend at least some effort figuring things out.
The trials in SFV are in fact way more accessible than the trials in SFIV and in most other games. To me they seem like medium skill level introductions to building optimized combos. A few offer hints on non-obvious properties of certain links and buffers.
SFV's actual design problem, common to Capcom games, is the lack of a genuine tutorial system of the kind seen in something like VF4, Guilty Gear Xrd, or Killer Instinct. Combo challenge trials are different from true tutorials.
It's honestly fucking incredible/ridiculous that their new "tutorial" system is literally just a decade-long series of text prompts
hikarutilmitt
Member
This was the real travesty.