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[geordiemp]

honestly this sounds more like a "Heres what we meant to launch and sorry that you spent $400 just 2-3 years ago."

But thats crap, the Ps4 was the best they could do with the money in 2013.

Ps4k is only possible because of 14 nm in 2016. Its not too hard to say in 2016, chips have got 4 x smaller in 2016 (its area remember) so we can offer a Ps4K in 2016 to do 4K output and run some games in top gear. They play the same games. Ps4K is the new premium model until we envisage Ps5 in 2022.

Done. Sony did not have a magic wand in 2013 to have a 3.5 TF OG Ps4 with 350 Watts of heat in a large box with 3 fans costing £ 1000. I spent £ 650 on 2 Ps4 in 2013, I understand sony gave me decent value for what was possible in 2013, and I bought 2.

To my knowledge, there's never been an example of it working well, if you know of one, perhaps you can enlighten me.

So your all for the If I cant play No mans sky in VR, then nobody can.

Call it fragmentation, dress it up how you want. Different powers work for PC, mobile, apple.

I have a 12 year old kid, This stuff does not bother me at all, as you get older you dont mind being in your ford when a guy goes past in a Porsche. But for younger people its harder to take, I get it.

 

[Muzicfreq]

Or "building on the base of the amazing success of the PS4, we're delighted to introduce the newest member of the playstation family"

Why doesn't Apple get criticised for the exact same thing? "here is the new iphone 6S. Sorry to all those that bought the 6. I know we said it was amazing last year, but its shit now"

Because the apple crowd is brainwashed into thinking there's some kind of dramatic change when really there isn't.
pretty much the same phone, slimmer, better camera... but still the same essentially. OH and now they have NFC OOOOOoooohh... meh

 

[Prisoner KSC2-303]

Or "building on the base of the amazing success of the PS4, we're delighted to introduce the newest member of the playstation family"

Why doesn't Apple get criticised for the exact same thing? "here is the new iphone 6S. Sorry to all those that bought the 6. I know we said it was amazing last year, but its shit now"

I think the difference is everyone assumed their phone will be outdated in a small space of time. With generation cycles, most think their consoles will have a certain shelf life as the premium product from their manufacturer of choice.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

I think the difference is everyone assumed their phone will be outdated in a small space of time. With generation cycles, most think their consoles will have a certain shelf life as the premium product from their manufacturer of choice.

But we're already seeing PS4 and Xbox One struggle with framerate and resolution, from the first year even. Console gamers put too much stock in 'optimisation'. Sure, that'll happen as the years go on, but PS4 games will become more demanding. Look at how messy a lot of the 2012/2013 multiplats ran on PS3 and 360.

 

[spwolf]

PSVR is a red herring. Sony, like MS, want to move to incremental updates like apple do with their products. PS4 and XB1 are already effectively PCs, and most engines are developed on PC and then adapted for console. Moving to an incremental model provides two benefits for sony and publishers

1) additional revenue from maintaining a product on the market with a relatively higher ASP, even while the older console drops in price.

It is hard for me to understand that regular poster like you does not know that they dont make anything on hardware.... If PS4k was $999 and if new version was out yearly then you would be correct and it would be Apple model.

 

[Chittagong]

Because the apple crowd is brainwashed into thinking there's some kind of dramatic change when really there isn't.
pretty much the same phone, slimmer, better camera... but still the same essentially. OH and now they have NFC OOOOOoooohh... meh

Nah it's that exact thing, iPhone 6 Plus was always underpowered and sluggish for that screen resolution, so much so that Apple runs it in sub-native resolution. iPhone 6S Plus has the power needed to run smoothly.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

AFAIK, it's 60fps.

MM have said it varies depending on how you design your level. Dense levels (presumably with more 'logic') typically run at 30 and more 'paintily' levels run at 60fps. Nothing has been said about whether we have control over what framerate it is but surely there must be something in place to decide? Relying on workload alone would surely lead to fluctuations during a user created level. I'm not technically minded but that just seems likely.

 

[Sidewinder]

Or "building on the base of the amazing success of the PS4, we're delighted to introduce the newest member of the playstation family"

Why doesn't Apple get criticised for the exact same thing? "here is the new iphone 6S. Sorry to all those that bought the 6. I know we said it was amazing last year, but its shit now"

I don't know, because everybody and his dog by now knows how the smartphone circus works? This is absolutely the norm in that industry and has been for a long time. For consoles it has never been done before. So of course a bunch of PS4 owners will not be happy about it.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Or "building on the base of the amazing success of the PS4, we're delighted to introduce the newest member of the playstation family"

Why doesn't Apple get criticised for the exact same thing? "here is the new iphone 6S. Sorry to all those that bought the 6. I know we said it was amazing last year, but its shit now"

Phones. are. subsidised. People can just ring up who they have their phone contract with and get a free or cheap upgrade.

 

[Keihart]

Or "building on the base of the amazing success of the PS4, we're delighted to introduce the newest member of the playstation family"

Why doesn't Apple get criticised for the exact same thing? "here is the new iphone 6S. Sorry to all those that bought the 6. I know we said it was amazing last year, but its shit now"

I would argue that many criticize apple for the same thing as myself who think its a pretty ridiculous and kinda scumbagy model.

I know i am not alone when i say that apple and most other cellphone manufacturers overcharge for their hardware iterations, and iterate without real reason.

 

[Venom Fox]

Get over yourself.

I'm an OG PS4 owner with a PSVR pre-order, and absolutely do not feel like I've been slapped in the face with the possible option of PS4K.

Stop speaking for people other than yourself.

Same.

 

[Muzicfreq]

But thats crap, the Ps4 was the best they could do with the money in 2013.

Ps4k is only possible because of 14 nm in 2016. Its not too hard to say in 2016, chips have got 4 x smaller in 2016 (its area remember) so we can offer a Ps4K in 2016 to do 4K output and run some games in top gear. They play the same games. Ps4K is the new premium model until we envisage Ps5 in 2022.

Done.

Sony did not have a magic wand in 2013 to have a 3.5 TF OG Ps4 with 350 Watts of heat in a large box with 3 fans costing £ 1000.

I spent £ 650 on 2 Ps4 in 2013, I understand sony gave me decent value for what was possible in 2013, and I bought 2.

That could have been possible if they wanted to make a power brick instead of trying to make the system all in one and as compact as possible. Also usually new tech is way more expensive at the launch than tech that's been out for some time even making custom chips utilizing older tech.

But then again it's AMD. But to be the first to jump in and test fresh waters with these new chips in a console is highly risky and could turn into a dud.

 

[Jhn]

They're not the same, yes, which is exactly why you shouldn't expect a negative impact on OG PS4. As someone else said in this thread, the concern in the thread boils down to no more than people being upset at the fact that they no longer own 'the most powerful console'.

I was getting a lot of feedback like this a few pages back when I expressed some less than positive views about this whole thing, so let me just briefly respond with how I personally look at this.

I will probably buy a PS4k. As such, my negative attitude towards this has nothing to with me somehow being jealous of people with more disposable income than me, or the fact that they can afford better hardware. I'm not begrudging people who own "nicer things" than me, and even if I did I actually plan to buy this, so the argument does not apply.

I don't like what this means for the console space, and it has nothing to do with some personal jealousy.
I like consoles for being an easy to use, low level of entry gaming platform that used to guarantee you a level playing field, and having a hardware cycle that kept your system relevant for the newest games for at least 5 years.

Now, we've somehow made a half-gen skip after only three years, both making it more difficult for developers since they need to target two sets of hardware instead of one, and making the previously level playing field segregated into the elite and the commoners. And I don't like that regardless of what side I fall on.

This will be in no way the same kind of crap deal PS3/360 owners got on cross gen games when PS4/XB1 came out. The assertion that it is is so ridiculous and hyperbolic.

Well, we can't really know that. Your absolutist statement is as ridiculous and hyperbolic as what you're responding to. We'll see how it goes I guess.

 

[SiRatul]

The way I see this the normal PS4 will still be the dominant one until the end of this gen. It wil get cheaper and get into a territory where casual people can buy a current gen console for little money. So there is no reason for devs to treat this platform as something insignificant since the most money will come from that install base.
In my opinion during game development it makes more sense to make the most out of the PS4 hardware in regards to where the majority of customers are and simply throw it at the PS4K. It automatically gets a boost without the devs having to do anything since we are basically dealing with PCs here.
So I would be more concerned multiplat devs not taking advantage of the power of the PS4K then them making the best out of the PS4K (like they don't make the best out of high end GPUs) and additionally spending time to optimize the PS4 version and getting shit from the larger part of the audience for doing a crap job or under delivering.
Regarding the first party devs, I have enough faith in them that they can deliver compelling game versions for both hardware.

This isn't a new generation where a growing install base of the new console want everything optimized for the new console and support to die for the old one. Therefore there is no pressure on the studios to abandone the old hardware. Furthermore studios neglect the old hardware because after the introduction of the new hardware software sales on the old hardware tank completely within 2 years and nobody expects great running games on the old consoles.

I simply don't get why so many people are reprojecting the consequences of a proper new gen launch to this iterative jump.

 

[gus-gus]

I have yet to read any coherent rationale that this would seriously impact ps4 owners in any way shape or form, outside of not having the latest hardware.

It will also be a moot point when competitors do the same.

Thanks, that's all I needed to hear.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

They're not the same, yes, which is exactly why you shouldn't expect a negative impact on OG PS4. As someone else said in this thread, the concern in the thread boils down to no more than people being upset at the fact that they no longer own 'the most powerful console'.

Thats the whole fucking point. The industry up until now has worked in cycles. Every 5-7 years a generational leap happens and a new successive console comes out. You could more or less feel safe that your one time purchase will let you play every game released until the new console comes out. That's why people get consoles instead of PCs.

I have yet to read any coherent rationale that this would seriously impact ps4 owners in any way shape or form, outside of not having the latest hardware.

It will also be a moot point when competitors do the same.

Have you not read the first few pages of the thread?

Games made for PS4K will run on PS4 with significant sacrifices to get them running. Then there is the problem of VR, it is clear the PS4K was shat out because they realised they need more power for VR. What happens to PSVR on PS4 then, do they get sub-hd blurry mess versions of PS4K VR games?

 

[geordiemp]

Because the apple crowd is brainwashed into thinking there's some kind of dramatic change when really there isn't.
pretty much the same phone, slimmer, better camera... but still the same essentially. OH and now they have NFC OOOOOoooohh... meh

Some people will explode if they go through life with that attitude, there is always someone with a bigger house, a faster car, a better watch.

A faster Ps4 is so damn low down on this list its hilarious. Stand back for a minute and look at the outrage, its what my son does when he looses at COD lol

 

[Muzicfreq]

But we're already seeing PS4 and Xbox One struggle with framerate and resolution, from the first year even. Console gamers put too much stock in 'optimisation'. Sure, that'll happen as the years go on, but PS4 games will become more demanding. Look at how messy a lot of the 2012/2013 multiplats ran on PS3 and 360.

That's not even a fair argument though. PS3 had 512MB of shared memory and ran on a Cell processor
XB360 was closer to PC but was even older
First Party devs on PS3 were able to make some amazing looking games considering the hardware they were working with. Even Rockstar with GTAV got that to even run.

Also the fact the the systems are running like they are now, engine optimization is key. Look at Dice and Battlefront on PS4. Sure 900p to get 60fps but that game looks stunning considering the hardware.

 

[Prisoner KSC2-303]

I spent £ 650 on 2 Ps4 in 2013, I understand sony gave me decent value for what was possible in 2013, and I bought 2.

That's not an example of fragmentation due to SKU exclusives working well, which is what the quote you replied to was referring to.

But we're already seeing PS4 and Xbox One struggle with framerate and resolution, from the first year even. Console gamers put too much stock in 'optimisation'. Sure, that'll happen as the years go on, but PS4 games will become more demanding. Look at how messy a lot of the 2012/2013 multiplats ran on PS3 and 360.

I agree. I feel I'm about ready for a mid-gen refresh, this generation was always likely to flag before it got old, I'm just sorry we saw so many cross-gen games to begin with.

But I'm trying to outline the reasons why it needs to be handled well. Sony sold the PS4 in part on the back of the prestige of being the most powerful console; it's tough to refresh mid-gen with a substantial upgrade of any type and keep everyone happy. If it's the way forward people will get used to it though - we accept cheaper prices, smaller quieter boxes, bigger HDs, so this is the next logical step. It just won't be easy to get the message right to the point those who've just bought a PS4 will see the value in it. And I think SKU exclusives, be they PSVR or not, would be opening a can of worms.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

I was getting a lot of feedback like this a few pages back when I expressed some less than positive views about this whole thing, so let me just briefly respond with how I personally look at this.

I will probably buy a PS4k. As such, my negative attitude towards this has nothing to with me somehow being jealous of people with more disposable income than me, or the fact that they can afford better hardware. I'm not begrudging people who own "nicer things" than me, and even if I did I actually plan to buy this, so the argument does not apply.

I don't like what this means for the console space, and it has nothing to do with some personal jealousy.
I like consoles for being an easy to use, low level of entry gaming platform that used to guarantee you a level playing field, and having a hardware cycle that kept your system relevant for the newest games for at least 5 years.

Now, we've somehow made a half-gen skip after only three years, both making it more difficult for developers since they need to target two sets of hardware instead of one, and making the previously level playing field segregated into the elite and the commoners. And I don't like that regardless of what side I fall on.

So it is a personal thing. The moment you said this will turn into an 'elite and the commoners' type situation completely invalidated your second paragraph. PS4 and PS4K are the same system mate. One just has a little bit of extra juice. Why are 3DS and n3DS completely ignored. Nintendo has already done what Sony and MSFT are planning to do, but on a smaller scale.

Monster Hunter 4U had better textures on n3DS but still ran great on 3DS OG, for example.

I Well, we can't really know that. Your absolutist statement is as ridiculous and hyperbolic as what you're responding to. We'll see how it goes I guess.

It's not hyperbolic. It's common sense. A generational leap is usually 7~8x the power of the previous, as we saw from PS3 to PS4. Hence why cross gen games on the last gen systems ran/run like garbage. You're not going to see that kind of performance gulf with a new SKU of the existing PS4 that has 2x the GPU power. C'mon son.

That's not even a fair argument though. PS3 had 512MB of shared memory and ran on a Cell processor
XB360 was closer to PC but was even older
First Party devs on PS3 were able to make some amazing looking games considering the hardware they were working with. Even Rockstar with GTAV got that to even run.

Also the fact the the systems are running like they are now, engine optimization is key. Look at Dice and Battlefront on PS4. Sure 900p to get 60fps but that game looks stunning considering the hardware.

You're proving my point. PS3 and PS4 are so far apart, hence the huge differences between the games they output. You won't get the same kind of disparity with PS4 and PS4K games because they don't have anywhere near the same gulf in power.

 

[geordiemp]

That's not even a fair argument though. PS3 had 512MB of shared memory and ran on a Cell processor
XB360 was closer to PC but was even older
First Party devs on PS3 were able to make some amazing looking games considering the hardware they were working with. Even Rockstar with GTAV got that to even run.

Also the fact the the systems are running like they are now, engine optimization is key. Look at Dice and Battlefront on PS4. Sure 900p to get 60fps but that game looks stunning considering the hardware.

So whats your problem then - Good example, Battlefront is 900p60. Everyone gets to play it.

BUT you need 1080p60 for VR with no dips. You can see where this is going cant you. Battleftont is not the best example as its a bad candidate for VR due to motion sickness, but the point stands.

 

[GopherD]

Have you not read the first few pages of the thread?

Games made for PS4K will run on PS4 with significant sacrifices to get them running. Then there is the problem of VR, it is clear the PS4K was shat out because they realised they need more power for VR. What happens to PSVR on PS4 then, do they get sub-hd blurry mess versions of PS4K VR games?

As I have stated before, there are significant sacrifices between running a 970 and a 980ti. Which of those means a shit experience?

It's clear that a console is "shat out" is it? Do you honestly believe that?

 

[geordiemp]

The transistors of the new lithography are going to be FinFet, meaning that the transistors occupy more space due to the 3D structure necessary to prevent electron leakage. The new lithography is 2x the density and not 4x density as it would have been, had the transistors not been FinFet. The leap from 28nm->14nm is essentially the same as 45nm->28nm.

"Nanometers" refer to the smallest feature size (transistor gate), not the size of the transistor.

Fair enough, so 2 x GPU is the best sony can do then because the ps4 API is pretty big as it is.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

As I have stated before, there are significant sacrifices between running a 970 and a 980ti. Which of those means a shit experience?

It's clear that a console is "shat out" is it? Do you honestly believe that?

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1595?vs=1496

980Ti isn't twice the power of the 970 though is it?

At best it's 50% faster.

At same detail level it is almost running 60fps in all games, all it would take is a slight reduction in image quality to get stable 60fps.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1596?vs=1442

Compare it to something like the 960 which the 980 is at least twice as fast and you are looking at a completely different story.

 

[Prisoner KSC2-303]

So your all for the If I cant play No mans sky in VR, then nobody can.

Call it fragmentation, dress it up how you want. Different powers work for PC, mobile, apple.

I have a 12 year old kid, This stuff does not bother me at all, as you get older you dont mind being in your ford when a guy goes past in a Porsche. But for younger people its harder to take, I get it.

That kind of edit really is beneath contempt.

I shan't bother replying to you; kindly do me the same courtesy.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Thats the whole fucking point. The industry up until now has worked in cycles. Every 5-7 years a generational leap happens and a new successive console comes out. You could more or less feel safe that your one time purchase will let you play every game released until the new console comes out. That's why people get consoles instead of PCs.

Calm down, chief. Jesus christ. Now, where have you got the notion that you won't be able to play the next 3-4 years of PS4 games? You may not be able to play them at 1080p and 60fps (which I doubt even PS4K will do, but it's a best case scenario), but you'll still get your standard 1080p/30fps.

 

[family_guy]

So whats your problem then - Good example, Battlefront is 900p60. Everyone gets to play it.

BUT you need 1080p60 for VR with no dips. You can see where this is going cant you. Battleftont is not the best example as its a bad candidate for VR due to motion sickness, but the point stands.

Don't think there's a requirement for VR games to be 1080p, just 60fps minimum.

 

[2thepoint]

This is the most ridiculous assertion in this thread. The PS5 is on the cards too, does everyone get to feel this alleged slap?

This amounts to nothing more than penis envy. Solution? Buy a bigger penis when it goes on sale.

And...that statement essentially answers all this scare mongering / ''if i can't have it, nobody can'' drivel being vomited all over the thread.

Thank you

 

[HandsomeCharles]

Call it fragmentation, dress it up how you want. Different powers work for PC, mobile, apple.

I have a 12 year old kid, This stuff does not bother me at all, as you get older you dont mind being in your ford when a guy goes past in a Porsche. But for younger people its harder to take, I get it.

The issue that I take with it is that within the console space we had an established system. It worked, nobody felt cheated for being an early adopter, and all users were on the exact same playing-field. Now it seems as though it's going to end up like this:

(/s ... a bit)

 

[geordiemp]

That kind of edit really is beneath contempt.

I shan't bother replying to you; kindly do me the same courtesy.

I have a 12 ys old son shouting for a Ps4k and PSVR for Xmas, I have just been made redundant so not sure if I can afford it or PsVR, but I dont mind if others do. Hopefully I can find something by then...but thats life.

If you want to take your ball home thats up to you.

 

[GopherD]

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1595?vs=1496

980Ti isn't twice the power of the 970 though is it?

At best it's 50% faster.

At same detail level it is almost running 60fps in all games, all it would take is a slight reduction in image quality to get stable 60fps.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1596?vs=1496

Compare it to something like the 960 which the 980Ti is at least twice as fast and you are looking at a completely different story.

And look at that - the same games are available for both cards, look pretty sweet and run well at their optimum settings. You may want better IQ or fps, so you might save up for a new card....

or console.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Calm down, chief. Jesus christ. Now, where have you got the notion that you won't be able to play the next 3-4 years of PS4 games? You may not be able to play them at 1080p and 60fps (which I doubt even PS4K will do, but it's a best case scenario), but you'll still get your standard 1080p/30fps.

You can't guarantee that I will be able to either, that doesn't make your statement any more accurate than mine so lay off the condescension.

And look at that - the same games are available for both cards, look pretty sweet and run well at their optimum settings. You may want better IQ or fps, so you might save up for a new card....

or console.

I shouldn't have to save up for a new console just because Sony wants more money at the middle of the cycle. I've been burned by buying a launch console and helping them get back up to being the arrogant, smug arseholes they were just before the PS3 taught them some fucking humility.

 

[2thepoint]

But thats crap, the Ps4 was the best they could do with the money in 2013.

Ps4k is only possible because of 14 nm in 2016. Its not too hard to say in 2016, chips have got 4 x smaller in 2016 (its area remember) so we can offer a Ps4K in 2016 to do 4K output and run some games in top gear. They play the same games. Ps4K is the new premium model until we envisage Ps5 in 2022.

Done. Sony did not have a magic wand in 2013 to have a 3.5 TF OG Ps4 with 350 Watts of heat in a large box with 3 fans costing £ 1000. I spent £ 650 on 2 Ps4 in 2013, I understand sony gave me decent value for what was possible in 2013, and I bought 2.



So your all for the If I cant play No mans sky in VR, then nobody can.

Call it fragmentation, dress it up how you want. Different powers work for PC, mobile, apple.

I have a 12 year old kid, This stuff does not bother me at all, as you get older you dont mind being in your ford when a guy goes past in a Porsche. But for younger people its harder to take, I get it.

Common sense at it's finest.

I have no issue with the others in the Playstation ecosystem being able to enjoy games with more bells and whistles if they want / afford it.

Was there this much shittalk when New 3DS was announced?

I doubt it.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

You can't guarantee that I will be able to either, that doesn't make your statement any more accurate than mine so lay off the condescension.

Not being condescending but you're getting too emotional about this. How is developing a game to run on PS4k and PS4 any different to getting it to run on a 980ti, 970, 960 etc? Because last time I check, games didn't run like hot garbage on 970 and 960 compared to a 980ti. Sure, they're not as good, but they certainly make the most of the card.

Why would it be any different for PS4 and PS4k. At the end of the day, games these days are made for specs well beyond what PS4k will be, and have been for years. The way you and many others are going on is as if PS4k will suddenly become the lead platform for every multiplatform game.

Edit: Oh lawd jesus. You don't have to save up for a new console. No one is forcing you to. What is wrong with you?

 

[CadetMahoney]

Don't think there's a requirement for VR games to be 1080p, just 60fps minimum.

For mass market stuff I can see a stable framerate with zero microstutter, tearing, framepacing or framedrops being more than a target, but then I don't know how the industry will deal with adverse health effects on customers (headaches/nausea etc).

 

[Dahaka]

man, I wonder what these guys will do when they jump ship to the PC as they love to announce in threads like this. How would they stomach new generations of video cards? When they buy their x70/x80 card and then next year the HBM2 Titans and TIs arrive, then Volta and so on.

 

[mrklaw]

I think the difference is everyone assumed their phone will be outdated in a small space of time. With generation cycles, most think their consoles will have a certain shelf life as the premium product from their manufacturer of choice.

The point is your phone *isnt* outdated - there is just a newer one. Your phone still works just fine, and will do for a few years. But that's no reason to freeze development and not being anything new out when technology allows.

 

[Muzicfreq]

That's not an example of fragmentation due to SKU exclusives working well, which is what the quote you replied to was referring to.



I agree. I feel I'm about ready for a mid-gen refresh, this generation was always likely to flag before it got old, I'm just sorry we saw so many cross-gen games to begin with.

But I'm trying to outline the reasons why it needs to be handled well. Sony sold the PS4 in part on the back of the prestige of being the most powerful console; it's tough to refresh mid-gen with a substantial upgrade of any type and keep everyone happy. If it's the way forward people will get used to it though - we accept cheaper prices, smaller quieter boxes, bigger HDs, so this is the next logical step. It just won't be easy to get the message right to the point those who've just bought a PS4 will see the value in it. And I think SKU exclusives, be they PSVR or not, would be opening a can of worms.

This is why I say it would be smart of them more to continue their success while they have it and just ride it out.
Doing this could cause bigger issues than some dropped frames

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Not being condescending....

Edit: Oh lawd jesus. You don't have to save up for a new console. No one is forcing you to. What is wrong with you?

Yeah....

I could have bought a new GPU but I got fed up of getting a new one just to keep up with graphically intensive games.

I got a PS4 because I knew I would be able to play every game as the developer intended without having to spend ages pissing about with graphics settings trying to get a horribly optimised game running semi decently.

That's why I and many other people are mad. Why is it so hard to see from the other fucking side of the fence?

 

[ZehDon]

This is the most ridiculous assertion in this thread. The PS5 is on the cards too, does everyone get to feel this alleged slap?

This amounts to nothing more than penis envy. Solution? Buy a bigger penis when it goes on sale.

The PS5 is a known quantity I accepted when I put my money down, as evidenced by the "4" in Playstation 4. In five plus years, I know my hardware will be obsolete. Upgraded hardware mid-gen, on the other hand, wasn't known. Hence the 211 page thread, and the trillion YouTube opinion vids. So, please, put your dismissals away. Why are you surprised that people expected this generation to be similar to the ones before it, when Jack Trenton received thunderous applause after detailing that the PS4 would be the same as the three previous Playstations before it?

Get over yourself.

I'm an OG PS4 owner with a PSVR pre-order, and absolutely do not feel like I've been slapped in the face with the possible option of PS4K.

Stop speaking for people other than yourself.

I'm an OG PS4 owners with a PSVR pre-order, thought the avatar might have given me away. In any case, if the PS4K is as rumoured, I absolutely feel like I've been slapped in the face. Opinions, my good man - we're all here to discuss them. So far, the only justification I've seen for the PS4K in this entire thread is "I can afford it, and want more graphics".

Oh man, look, most PSVR games have been shown already will be fine with Ps4, there have been enough demos and hands on for games like battlezone, RIGS etc by public and press for about a year now.

The problem comes for the games that are too hard to do that we have not seen yet or tried, maybe a game like NO MANS SKY no way could run at a SOLID 60 FPS on OG Ps4.

So what do you do ? Allow only PC players to play No mans sky in the future, no SONY fans can play it because it has no chance of running and their are too many upset players who are annoyed someone has a bigger epenis than them.

You could say that elite dangerous with nice settings would be hard to run on OG Ps4, and probably project cars.

So, do we ignore those games, if you cant play them no sony fans can ?

Excellent post. To answer the question: what do you do? Well, for my part, I think the answer is the same as its always been for every previous console, and any other answer highlights a really, really big part of why the PS4K is, for me, a really terrible idea.

To be specific: the known quantity of the console hardware is its weakness and strength. The strength is optimisation: developers can target a single spec, and get the most out of it. The weakness is that spec is static, and has finite limits. Case in point: Doom 3 for the OG Xbox. It was basically re-built to work on such limited hardware. But it was done, and it worked, because the developers had no other choice if they wanted a console release. Given the choice, you're suggesting that developers simply drop the OG PS4 - and that's a real problem. Optimisations aren't easy, no doubt. So we'll get one of three situations: OG PS4 gets fewer games, developers spend literally millions of additional dollars to target two console specs, or developers simply drop the OG PS4's pixel count and CPU tasks below current levels to buy back frame budgets (see Xbone's multi-platform releases). Situation 1 and 3 are the most likely - and result in current model PS4 owners receiving a worse situation than they would if the PS4K didn't exist. With no PS4K, No Man Sky's VR Mode gets toned down to work on the PS4, rather than being dropped entirely in favour of easier hardware that requires less work. And given how much Sony has clearly enjoyed the success of the OG PS4 and its 35+ million early adopters, that's a more-than-kinda shitty way to thank them.

 

[Prisoner KSC2-303]

I have a 12 ys old son shouting for a Ps4k and PSVR for Xmas, I have just been made redundant so not sure if I can afford it or PsVR, but I dont mind if others do. Hopefully I can find something by then...but thats life.

If you want to take your ball home thats up to you.

I'm sorry to hear of your redundancy, but categorising those who're worried about the pitfalls of SKU fragmentation and dressing it as a binary situation where you're either for or against others having nice things for the sake of it seemed against the spirit of maturity your post seem to be claiming.

I too am old enough not to care, I've just bought a new house, I'm in the process of selling the old one; there are nicer houses on the street, so a console game is the least of my concerns, and I'd wager the same is true for most who still don't think SKU exclusives are a good idea.

As before though, I'm all ears if anyone has an example of it having worked well in the past.

 

[omonimo]

But we're already seeing PS4 and Xbox One struggle with framerate and resolution, from the first year even. Console gamers put too much stock in 'optimisation'. Sure, that'll happen as the years go on, but PS4 games will become more demanding. Look at how messy a lot of the 2012/2013 multiplats ran on PS3 and 360.

You know right it was the same on ps360? It's called optimisation. The fact the hardware use x86 doesn't means developers knows how to push it immediately. There is APU, ACE and other stuff to learn before to perform the best from the hardware. Let's take out this idiocy that hardware can't be pushed anymore. Just play Watch Dog then put side by side The Division. It seems the same graphic to you?

 

[Corto]

You can't guarantee that I will be able to either, that doesn't make your statement any more accurate than mine so lay off the condescension.



I shouldn't have to save up for a new console just because Sony wants more money at the middle of the cycle. I've been burned by buying a launch console and helping them get back up to being the arrogant, smug arseholes they were just before the PS3 taught them some fucking humility.

You don't have to. Your current PS4 will run all the games for another 3-4 years.

 

[gus-gus]

You can't guarantee that I will be able to either, that doesn't make your statement any more accurate than mine so lay off the condescension.



I shouldn't have to save up for a new console just because Sony wants more money at the middle of the cycle. I've been burned by buying a launch console and helping them get back up to being the arrogant, smug arseholes they were just before the PS3 taught them some fucking humility.

How can a business be smug and arrogant? Decisions are made in businesses because of trends and/or threat to the current business model. I think you're taking this to personal, these decisions aren't made to upset early adopters.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Yeah....

I could have bought a new GPU but I got fed up of getting a new one just to keep up with graphically intensive games.

I got a PS4 because I knew I would be able to play every game as the developer intended without having to spend ages pissing about with graphics settings trying to get a horribly optimised game running semi decently.

That's why I and many other people are mad. Why is it so hard to see from the other fucking side of the fence?

But by being a console, you're were never going to play a game the way the developer intended. Are you reading what you're writing?

You know right it was the same on ps360? It's called optimisation. The fact the hardware use x86 doesn't means developers knows how to push it immediately. There is APU, ACE and other stuff we need a lot of training before to perform smooth experience. Let's take out this idiocy hardware can't be pushed anymore. Just play Watch Dog then put side by side The Division. It seems the same graphic to you?

I don't need you to tell me what optimisation is. I know exactly what it is. But the proof is in the pudding. While optimisation helps, you're always limited by hardware. Again, look at how multiplatform games began to struggle so much towards the end of last generation, even before PS4/XB1 released. Or are we going to ignore this to suit out agendas now?

 

[geordiemp]

For mass market stuff I can see a stable framerate with zero microstutter, tearing, framepacing or framedrops being more than a target, but then I don't know how the industry will deal with adverse health effects on customers (headaches/nausea etc).

Agree with you. Reading all the PVR stuff, sony seem intent on making sure you have a 'nice' experience, so I agree all Psvr games are going to be solid running, and probably 1080p60 solid and have less detail and effects (more like Ps3 games in look).

Hence games like no mans sky is never going to run on OG ps4 imo, and I can imagine project cars (which struggled on a i5 / 970 in the giant bomb stream for goodness sake).

Thats why I believe sony is doing the ps4K as much as 4k TV;s.

I'm sorry to hear of your redundancy, but categorising those who're worried about the pitfalls of SKU fragmentation and dressing it as a binary situation where you're either for or against others having nice things for the sake of it seemed against the spirit of maturity your post seem to be claiming.

I too am old enough not to care, I've just bought a new house, I'm in the process of selling the old one; there are nicer houses on the street, so a console game is the least of my concerns, and I'd wager the same is true for most who still don't think SKU exclusives are a good idea.

As before though, I'm all ears if anyone has an example of it having worked well in the past.

Thank you for your kind words. Anyway, your right it has not been done before, but that does not mean it should or should not be done in the console space.

I just really think OG Ps4 is not strong enough for allot of stuff that will come to VR, its that simple. Yes, many games run fine at shows and whats been announced, but there will be many PC games that Sony cannot sell to PSVR owners with OG Ps4. There is no way around that.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

How can a business be smug and arrogant? Decisions are made in businesses because of trends and/or threat to the current business model. I think you're taking this to personal, these decisions aren't made to upset early adopters.

The people running them can. Ken Kutaragi the insane idiot who thought two CELL processors would be good enough to run dual HDMI out at 120FPS then when they realised their mistake they got an Nvidia off the shelf GPU and bolted it onto the system.

The same idiot who said the PS3 would teach people discipline and that people should get a second job just to afford it.

That kind of mentality is resurfacing.

But by being a console, you're were never going to play a game the way the developer intended. Are you reading what you're writing?

Yet your still not being condescending?

Sure Naughty Dog would love to have a more powerful console but they developed their game within the constraints of the hardware and I am getting a game that they intended.

 

[Some Nobody]

The fact that this still exists means it's not some elaborate April 1st prank. It's upsetting, but I'll get over it. I do hate we're adopting the model of the PC and cell phone, and I don't think the average fan will go for it but I also don't think it matters--the PS4K will look like the PS4, and that thing was a sales juggernaut even when there was only a handful of games to the larger audience.

I'm salty, but I don't begrudge Sony this. There are too many new technologies coming out and Sony could just barely dip their toe in with the power of the 4 right now.

 

[Muzicfreq]

man, I wonder what these guys will do when they jump ship to the PC as they love to announce in threads like this. How would they stomach new generations of video cards? When they buy their x70/x80 card and then next year the HBM2 Titans and TIs arrive, then Volta and so on.

I tend to keep my PC going and if I can do games at Very High to Ultra scaled back to High/Very high then Medium/High (Console)

lasts a good ling while and with cards pushing for 4k60fps with High/Very High detail... 1080p just got a huuuuge lifespan boots

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Sure Naughty Dog would love to have a more powerful console but they developed their game within the constraints of the hardware and I am getting a game that they intended.

Why does it matter how they intended to release the game so long as they get the most out of the OG PS4 hardware and it still looks and performs great?