oneofthose
Banned
Is there any sony events between now till e3?
PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)
- Thread starter OsirisBlack
- Start date
No, with the PS4k youre getting scaled UP versions of games, with additional features...the PS4 remains the central console...
assuming of course you have the rig to handle that...very few people do...of course the amount of money to spend on a PC to beat the PS4 or Xbone is not all that significant, I would wager the vast majority of PC users still dont have PC's capable of outperforming the current consoles by any sort of significant margin...
The answer to that is yes, BUT...if we go with your "every three years" console upgrade cycle...if you spent $1000 on a PC the year new consoles launch...it is HIGHLY likely, that three years later you will still be outperforming the console revision by a pretty good margin...you might not be running full ultra settings and a rock solid 60+fps on every single game...but consoles are nowhere near that anyway...
So yes, if you absolutely HAVE to remain on the bleeding edge, and are buying new CPU/GPU every single year, then of course youre going to spend all sorts of crazy money...but if you upgrade parts in line with console releases you will always stay ahead, and likely save some money in the process...
especially with this generation...if you had built that $1000 PC the day the PS4 shipped...you would already have been SIGNIFICANTLY ahead of the PS4...and you will still be ahead of the PS4k...
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Jeff, I've been following your posts for at least five years, which means I've seen plenty of developers tell you that you don't understand what you're talking about and that you have confused or garbled multiple points. You making the assertion you are doing your homework while the WSJ has not opens you up to criticism.
You want to speculate, feel free, you want to claim you are a better source than the WSJ or a Mod-vetted insider, your garbled extrapolations and projected narrative from white pages/patents/news articles/whatever just ain't gonna cut it man.
According to whom? You're making an assumption based off of your own fears and doubts. Nothing of this magnitude has ever been done, yet you and numerous others are calling doom without even seeing how it could be implemented. Playing on the console version of a multiplatform is already not getting the premium PC version with missing features, yet your PS4 didn't explode when PC got the better versions of several games. Chill out.
GlamFM
Banned
Don´t believe that for one second.
ReBurn
Gold Member
To be honest, I tend to take the public statements of senior executives with a grain of salt. They are rarely completely open and honest with information. When giving interviews they have to weigh the impact of their words on current and future business opportunities.
If Sony wants to release a more powerful box that they want people to buy for full price, but less than other 4K players, then 4K capability is a great way to market it. If they say that the existing PS4 can do 4K then they can't justify a higher price tag or get any of those 30+ million people who already have a PS4 to pay them more money. Sure, they could just sell more PS4's, but if they can scrape off another $100 per unit in revenue in the process then they're going to want to do that.
oldergamer
Member
Attacking Jeff for having a reasonable idea on what could be possible is a waste of time. Just because an executive says something doesn't mean u get the full picture. What if the firmware on the BR drives is upgradable on ps4, but Sony didn't have a safe mthod of doing this without breaking security? Who knows.
Your question got me wondering about another question, which likely got discussed 50 times in this thread already...
If these games are designed to scale between 1080p and 4K, I wonder if many games will actually look better at 1080p while running on the PS4K... due to using less resolution. Or if the game will only have two modes: PS4 Mode, and PS4K Mode.
Fuck I don't know what to expect...
mugurumakensei
Member
Yea but currently, high end PC and PS4 is an 8x differential on just the GPU side with Fury X. Polaris and Pascal cards will make that creep over 10x. That's just with single GPU.
On the CPU side, middle range desktop core i5s( from 5+ years ago) run circles around the processors in the current PS4.
That gap needs to narrow for VR.
thetester77
Member
@jeff_rigby
There is no way this is just a firmware update in October for existing hardware.
Why would they be discussing these plans with top 3 retailers in US about a firmware update.
And as much as I wish it was true it would be a kick in the teeth for the rumoured PS4K as you are reducing the differentiators between them
You obviously have a very sound technical knowledge - but it just wouldn't make sense.
I new SKU is coming that much I am sure - there is far too much smoke
There is no way this is just a firmware update in October for existing hardware.
Why would they be discussing these plans with top 3 retailers in US about a firmware update.
And as much as I wish it was true it would be a kick in the teeth for the rumoured PS4K as you are reducing the differentiators between them
You obviously have a very sound technical knowledge - but it just wouldn't make sense.
I new SKU is coming that much I am sure - there is far too much smoke
To be fair, Sony also struggled with how to communicate that the PS4 wouldn't play music CDs despite the fact the drive can obviously read them. Every time a BC thread pops up people aren't sure if the system can read CDs even though it's not required to read pressed discs in the first place. And the specs in launch systems' manuals specify a CD laser, despite being omitted earlier.
The reason for the mess is obviously a business one, Sony didn't want any music on the system that wasn't from their service. But it made interviews with Sony tech people awkward, I remember one Japanese interview with Cerny that had a correction added to it later that specified that while the PS4 wouldn't play music CDs, it could read CDs.
So while Jeff could very well be right that the PS4 can read UHD discs, there are other factors at play potentially preventing launch models from having UHD support added.
The reason for the mess is obviously a business one, Sony didn't want any music on the system that wasn't from their service. But it made interviews with Sony tech people awkward, I remember one Japanese interview with Cerny that had a correction added to it later that specified that while the PS4 wouldn't play music CDs, it could read CDs.
So while Jeff could very well be right that the PS4 can read UHD discs, there are other factors at play potentially preventing launch models from having UHD support added.
I'm hoping that developers are going to be as lazy as they are these days (obvious blanket statement, not entirely serious) and instead of finetuning optimized PS4K games with higher quality assets they will just keep targeting the PS4 and instead allow for a simple 60 fps mode on the PS4K.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Ito said the PS4 drive can't read three layers and multiple places including the 2010 patent cite says all blu-ray drives can read three or more layers. From that plus the Microsoft VP saying the XB1 can support UHD Blu-ray and the Mt Fuji book there is overwhelming evidence that Ito was wrong on what he said about the drive.
The version 2 disk format is just the Panasonic - Sony tweak which requires a firmware update on a modern blu-ray drive. That firmware update modifies the mark length which then requires a change to how reliability code works (that's in the Fuji book).
What will it take to convince you?
GlamFM
Banned
It would make soooo much sense that I can´t see why they would do it differently.
By the time the 4K hits there could be 50 million PS4s out there. (?)
That will always be the market they will target.
Adam Tyner
Member
I agree 100%, honestly.
Still, when the man who leads the PS4 hardware team speaks in detail about why the console can't support UHD BD, that suggests that it's at least something that's been discussed or evaluated. I put more stock in that, even if it ultimately proves to be false, than someone who can't distinguish between speculation and fact.
Heck, even if it's technically possible (and I'm not making any claim one way or the other about that), there's no guarantee that Sony will go to the lengths necessary to make it happen.
If Jeff's line had been "this is why I believe the launch PS4 will support UHD BD", I wouldn't say a word. When he insists "the launch PS4 will support UHD BD, and if you say otherwise, you're willfully ignorant", then that deserves to be called out.
qa_engineer
Member
So what kind of features do you see developers omitting from standard PS4 games, outside of the extra effects, better lighting, and possibly a higher resolution image?
Edit: Gais, I didn't see this thread on the front page initially and thought the crazy train had died down. I was wrong.
my guess on upscaling is a simple no...because we're still not talking about a box that is going to be able to handle AAA games at 4k native res...so to "down sample" you would be upscaling, then down sampling back to 1080p...that doesnt sound very productive...
it would be great if the smaller titles that may actually run in 4k to get down sampled...that would still be sweet...but for something like CoD, Battlefield, Uncharted, etc...no way will they be pushing native 4k, so i would say down sampling is out of the question
as for the games looking better at 1080p i would say probably yes...if the developers use the extra GPU power to push some more effects, or higher quality effects...then yeah, the games should look better even at 1080p...
GlamFM
Banned
You´re derailing the thread, seriously.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Shifted several times but the longest period is from October 2015 which is the earliest that anyone could have a UHD blu-ray player to October 2016 which is one year not two.
Also in the same statement I said that Ito is either ignorant or lying for some reason. In the next post I forwarded the NDA reason. You leave out the Japanese technical writer in a previous article mentioned that the PS4 would likely support UHD Blu-ray because the drive would likely only need a firmware update. He pushed Ito on the Drive can't read three layers and Ito volunteered that the PS4 has no HEVC support either.
Technically the drive can't support version 2 disks without a firmware update and HEVC is not in the PS4 until it gets a firmware update. I can imagine some part of Ito's body was crossed.
"You´re derailing the thread, seriously." Your right, there are threads discussing this and I'd direct questions or comments to those threads.
Adam Tyner
Member
Sorry, I was using rigby-math. You said "The problem here is I am 2 years too early in announcing what is coming and you can't see it". I assumed that 2 years meant 2 years. July 2015 (when you started the PS4/4K Blu-ray thread) + 2 years = Summer 2017, not October 2016
I'll also refrain from derailing the discussion any further.
CosmicQueso
Member
Only 10 more weeks until E3 everyone!
We only have like SEVENTY more days of rampant speculation, terror, expectation, anger, joy, denial, acceptance and bargaining before the public may or may not know!
Yay!!!!!
We only have like SEVENTY more days of rampant speculation, terror, expectation, anger, joy, denial, acceptance and bargaining before the public may or may not know!
Yay!!!!!
well if its towards the end of the generation we get stuff like black ops 3......this is worst case scenario btw....probably not the standard. They end up looking worse than past games on the system and are missing features/game modes.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I hope you are right and Sony releases the update for OGPS4.
qa_engineer
Member
IMO I don't see any game modes or features being omitted in standard PS4 games. The only difference will be graphics and performance. Quote me so we can alll look back and say, "damn he was so right"
nah, don't need to.....I said worst case.....so this would probably be for niche games or something where they don't have time to develop fully on both....or something like that.Hell we could see games hit OG first....and then later ported depending on budget and the ability to have to sell games.....who knows.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Counting down!
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I think you are putting too much weight into the time it will take, as if this is PS3 vs. PS4 development. It will be much more streamlined I am sure, especially with the SDK tools.
They are the same disc. The same disc.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
This is exactly what all 3 console makers want to do. So I guess some people will just have to quit console gaming and go PC... or go mobile... wait a minute!
The sentence along with this gif is soooo funny.
qa_engineer
Member
I love it. I love all the crazy it brings out in people. I love that people are having meltdowns. I love that some people have come to terms with the updated hardware's existence. Meanwhile I am throwing money at the screen but nothing is happening. We asked for a more powerful console and sony might actually deliver one sooner rather than later.
We're finally getting closer to getting a more powerful console that plays 4k blu-rays...and will look nice next to my PC.
TAKE MY MONEY SONY>
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Yep. I'm really looking forward to E3.5
CosmicQueso
Member
I was thinking about this. Last gen you noticed a lot more sku's for the HD twins, be it different HDD configurations or colors and designs and that's less of a thing now, and I'd argue that the sales of accessories is at an all time low too and so the want to develop mid-gen systems to revitalize sales and interest becomes more attractive for the big three in order to get people to upgrade. If this is a thing and it takes off, generations will be a lot more seamless. Pre iPhone manufacturers used to create all sorts of form factors as a means to get people to upgrade. This one has a funky swivel design, this one is shaped differently, nobody really upgraded because one had a better CPU or better specs but because it looked totally different. You were told by marketing that you needed this new one. But today you don't really see that and so you see companies like Apple releasing mid-cycle phones such as the S range that help acclimate customers to the new internal changes without changing the core physical design. On one hand not having that immediate jump from a system like the PS3 with it's older specs to a more modern system makes it less of a incentive to upgrade when you have a system in-between to soften the jump, but on the other hand you acclimate customers to not think of consoles in generations. That creates uncertainty among customers today because that's not what we're used to. "Should I buy X now or wait for X?" but at the same time, it's not as if people weren't flipping their systems every time a new SKU came out in the past, be it the 360 Elite or Slim. There's more opportunity to course correct and so you're not stuck with the same system for 8 years.
For the more technologically enclined on GAF, I was just thinking...
Given that the PS4K is likely to be marketed straight for 4K tv owners instead of just like a "more powerful PS4", would the following scenario be possible from a tech perspective?
Basically, the PS4K would run non PS4k optimized PS4 games natively exactly the same as a PS4 (down to the framerate, to avoid issues, and multiplayer games same thing), but also would have a "PS4K mode" which uses the additional resources (GPU/ CPU) to build, from the regular "PS4 standard" image built in the framebuffer, re-build a 4k picture.
Kinda say a 4Kpr if you will?
If at all possible, I thought it would be a good in between ... not 4k native, but not just upscaled (which non optimized games would be) either.
Given that the PS4K is likely to be marketed straight for 4K tv owners instead of just like a "more powerful PS4", would the following scenario be possible from a tech perspective?
Basically, the PS4K would run non PS4k optimized PS4 games natively exactly the same as a PS4 (down to the framerate, to avoid issues, and multiplayer games same thing), but also would have a "PS4K mode" which uses the additional resources (GPU/ CPU) to build, from the regular "PS4 standard" image built in the framebuffer, re-build a 4k picture.
Kinda say a 4Kpr if you will?
If at all possible, I thought it would be a good in between ... not 4k native, but not just upscaled (which non optimized games would be) either.
ReBurn
Gold Member
I'd buy it.
geordiemp
Member
Why though ? Ps4K is going to sell to the early adopter crowd, who lets face it will already have a ps4 since 2013.
Why would someone trade his ps4 for a Ps4k that is just the same but with a scaler. Lets face it, all 4K tv's have a scaler chip built in.
There has to be desire in the product to the market your selling to - ps4K will only make a dent if its more powerful full stop, otherwise just make a ps4 slim with the blu ray mods for the 100 people interested in 4K blu ray......
Sony marketing department would have to have a brain freeze to offer a ps4K that is the same just with an upscaler - thats dead on arrival.
Ps4K should allow some games that simply cannot run on an OG Ps4, something like VR no mans sky if it was a thing. 60 FPS consistent in no mans sky would take some serious powa imo.
I'm kind of expecting something like this. We'll just have to wait and see.
Hexa
Member
I'm not entirely sure what you mean, since you mean more than simple upscaling. Beyond that having a 1080p image in the framebuffer isn't really going to help you generate a 4K image unless you do some really wierd stuff like Guerilla did with KZ:SF MP. Like generate every other row or column in 4k and the rest in 1080p? Or maybe it generates a 1080p image, calcualtes where the image would benefit most from being 4k, and then rerender those parts in 4k? That would be really messy though, and I'm guessing probably not worth it, but maybe some smart people can figure it out.
I think it'll likely be some far simpler if the 4k is a focus. Like maybe something like the new standard for OG PS4 games becoming 720p simply upscaled to 1080p and PS4k having 1080p -> 4K
We already know (as far as rumors/ leaks go) that PS4 games would need a patch to take advantage of the PS4k...
So having a 4Kpr would be an even better option (or in addition to) than just doubling the framerate for 4k tv owners imo.
Also, time will tell, but I am 99% sure that Sony won't advertise the PS4K as a "more powerful PS4", because it will have to have a clear marketing next to the PS4 and positing it as a "PS5" is not it.
Mark my words (and it's possible I'll eat crow), but the PS4K will be "the PS4 for people with a 4K display... Oh and we happen to have great 4K displays and projectors btw!".
That's what I had in mind given that
1) PS4K still likely won't be powerful enough for full native 4K on modern AA/ AAA
2) it would simplify/ make 4K cheaper for smaller devs and handling 2 "versions" for optimized games
SmiteOfHand
Member
People weren't reading into subtext or using a crystal ball. It is called experience and intuition. When Mark Cerny got on the stage and announced they were switching to x64 architecture anyone who knows anything about systems architecture saw this possibility a mile away.
geordiemp
Member
Why would you downgrade ps4 games to 720p, thats crazy talk. Ps4 is either 1080p30, 1080p60 or 900p60. It will stay that way.
Ps4k cannot do native 4K on a AAA game, thats for sure lol......and all 4K tv's have upscalers, so the only logic is 1080p60 CAPABLE, better effects, lighting, AF, AA, textures then upscale. I say capable because it would be up to each developer if they bother or just go for parity with Ps4,
Note, the most probable is most games will be more stable than ps4 and just be parity anyway lol. Otherwise nobody will care.
It needs to be $ 499 and have beefed up CPU and double bandwidth using the new faster memory, otherwise its pointless.
NeloAnjelo
Member
If this is marketed as a slimmer/newer model... like a hardware refresh and is priced at $399. with the PS4 being $299, then I see a lot of people upgrading... At $499 I don't see it getting much transaction.
With the Elite 360 model, HDMI and wireless were built it. Though all other hardware remained and performed the same.. The marketing and pricing of the PS4K will be essential. Needs to be sold as premium PS4, rather than updated specs I think
With the Elite 360 model, HDMI and wireless were built it. Though all other hardware remained and performed the same.. The marketing and pricing of the PS4K will be essential. Needs to be sold as premium PS4, rather than updated specs I think
Hexa
Member
TV upscalers are usually shit and add latency, so I'd hope the PS4 upscales the image itself.
As for why I'm guessing that OG PS4 games will drop resolution, is that as the PS4K will raise the bar on graphics I'm guessing that they'll try to keep as much of those as possible in PS4, though I suppose just lower graphics settings is just as possible. idk
Crimson_Gold
Member
I think PS4 will remain the same. Instead, think of the PS4K getting added graphics. The PS4 pipeline doesn't need to change
geordiemp
Member
Dont think so, I have a Panny 802x 4K in game mode is less than 30 ms, OK its not as fast my 1080p Sony 905 at 8 ms but its still very good.
Most people who have 4K tv's already the early adopters who would buy a Ps4K, will have fancy 4k tv;s that have very fast scalers to the point you cant notice it.
Lets face it, 30 ms is still allot faster than most 1080p tv;s. Maybe the cheaper 4K's will be slower, but I doubt it.#
There is no way I can see Sony running a new revised console marketing campaign with the USP being a faster scaler than 4K tv's. That would be crazy. Would be good for a laugh though imo.
spatenfloot
Member
Only if the game specifically locked the framerate. Or if they wanted to add effects.
family_guy
Member
If PS4K exists then 4K Blu-ray playback would be a strong bullet point that would push more people into buying it so it would be bad for marketing to update the old model even if it's possible. It's just not in Sony's best interest to do so.