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[Garlador]

This is... actually really obvious? That's what the Martha moment was, humanizing Superman to Batman (amongst a couple of other things).

And that moment fails, precisely because Superman ISN'T HUMAN. He's a nigh-invulnerable god-man who had a huge hand in leveling an entire city and ending hundreds of lives, and yet Batman decides "men are still good" despite the fact that, you know, Clark IS partially responsible for all that death and destruction, is still extremely violent and dangerous, and who knows how many thugs Batman killed or mutilated who also had mothers named Martha. Batman created a lot of widows, orphans, and grieving mothers...

Outside of the brand (which he doesn't exactly discard...), Batman still seemed just as murder-happy and lethal after his faith in "humanity" is restored... even though a being from across the stars died to stop a rampaging monster created by a deranged, evil, and very-human megalomaniac.

Every time I remember that Martha moment, I just completely fail to take anything seriously.

 

[Poodlestrike]

And that moment fails, precisely because Superman ISN'T HUMAN. He's a nigh-invulnerable god-man who had a huge hand in leveling an entire city and ending hundreds of lives, and yet Batman decides "men are still good" despite the fact that, you know, Clark IS partially responsible for all that death and destruction, is still extremely violent and dangerous, and who knows how many thugs Batman killed or mutilated who also had mothers named Martha. Batman created a lot of widows, orphans, and grieving mothers...

Outside of the brand (which he doesn't exactly discard...), Batman still seemed just as murder-happy and lethal after his faith in "humanity" is restored... even though a being from across the stars died to stop a rampaging monster created by a deranged, evil, and very-human megalomaniac.

Every time I remember that Martha moment, I just completely fail to take anything seriously.

Except... That's the point of the character, of his arc through the movie; that even with all his incredible power, he's still subject to human frailties, like doubt and uncertainty. That where it counts, he's human. He wants to do good, he wants to help everybody, but he doesn't know how. That's very human to me.

And his faith in humanity isn't restored until after Superman sacrificed himself, not really. Thus the restraint on the branding. He wants to do it, but he doesn't, because his sense of right and wrong is back to normal.

And yeah, if you totally fail to take the movie at all seriously, then none of its dramatic moments will and for you.

NO SHIT.

 

[Garlador]

Except... That's the point of the character, of his arc through the movie; that even with all his incredible power, he's still subject to human frailties, like doubt and uncertainty. That where it counts, he's human. He wants to do good, he wants to help everybody, but he doesn't know how. That's very human to me.

It doesn't come across like that to me. Unlike the versions I grew up with, this isn't a Superman that WANTS to help anybody. He's miserable like the rest of us, so I guess that makes him human? He hates doing what he does, he derives little joy or pleasure out of it, and he mopes around the majority of the film looking like a sad puppy. He looks like a guy that just wants to quit and practically asks his mother and Lois for permission to do so. He doesn't really relate to any other human beings besides his hot girlfriend and his mother. I guess that's "very human", but only in the way that I know people just like that... and they're just as insufferable and unlikable to be around.

When you embody your flaws more than your strengths, you say you're "only human", but in the worst way.

And his faith in humanity isn't restored until after Superman sacrificed himself, not really. Thus the restraint on the branding. He wants to do it, but he doesn't, because his sense of right and wrong is back to normal.

That remains to be seen.

Just like Snyder claimed that Superman killing Zod would teach him it's wrong to kill (ha, yeah... that didn't happen), this is yet another example of "trust us, he'll be normal again in the next film"... which is, at this moment, a false promise.

Not carving your insignia into the flesh of your defeated adversaries shouldn't feel like the "oh, he's back to normal" moment. Saying that out-loud makes Batman's choice to not do so sound even more insane because, holy cow, he was BRANDING THE FLESH OF HIS ENEMIES and sentencing them to death by mob justice, so him "sparing" Lex Luthor the fate of being butchered behind bars is, as I said, the smallest, tiniest, most Ant-man-sized babysteps you could take towards making him "normal" again... but I think he's still a canyon-sized gap away from being remotely "normal" by most reasonable and sane interpretations of the character.

And yeah, if you totally fail to take the movie at all seriously, then none of its dramatic moments will and for you.

NO SHIT.

You misunderstand. I TRIED to take the movie seriously. The movie failed ME. I was all-in on this. I've even been a huge fan of Snyder's work in the past and probably one of the most vocal defenders of his Watchmen adaptation.

But when a scene doesn't work, and my entire theater erupted into fits of laughter at what is supposed to be poignant and dramatic moments, is that somehow MY fault that the movie's big moments failed to resonate?

I tried to take all the Star Wars prequels seriously too.

When a film doesn't work, despite you giving it your best efforts and having a pretty high tolerance of suspension of disbelief, I would say the failings are with the filmmakers, not the audience guffawing at every insipid decision the movie makes.

 

[WrenchNinja]

He'd probably hang with more people like his best pal if he didn't let his best pal get shot in the face

 

[Zeyphersan]

That guitar riff when Wonder Woman shows up was horrendous. My girlfriend busted up laughing

 

[GuitarAtomik]

And that moment fails, precisely because Superman ISN'T HUMAN. He's a nigh-invulnerable god-man who had a huge hand in leveling an entire city and ending hundreds of lives, and yet Batman decides "men are still good" despite the fact that, you know, Clark IS partially responsible for all that death and destruction, is still extremely violent and dangerous, and who knows how many thugs Batman killed or mutilated who also had mothers named Martha. Batman created a lot of widows, orphans, and grieving mothers...

Outside of the brand (which he doesn't exactly discard...), Batman still seemed just as murder-happy and lethal after his faith in "humanity" is restored... even though a being from across the stars died to stop a rampaging monster created by a deranged, evil, and very-human megalomaniac.

Every time I remember that Martha moment, I just completely fail to take anything seriously.

Because in that moment, when Bruce is getting ready to end this alien god who he believes sees himself as above us, the last words it choses is "You have to save Martha". That's enough to throw Bruce off because it's his mother's name who he's obviously been thinking about a lot lately (not to mention the note that pushed him over the edge in to doing all this was "You let your family die!" or something to that effect). That's enough to get his attention. Then he finds out Martha is his mother and what he cares about most in his dieing moment is to make sure his mother is safe and at that moment he stops seeing the nigh-invulnerable alien. He just sees himself getting ready to murder a man who selflessly cares about his mom, and all of a sudden Bruce can relate. And it's extremely hard to demonize or de-humanize someone you can relate to and empathize with.

I have a lot of problems with the movie, but the Martha moment works for me.

 

[Inferno313]

That guitar riff when Wonder Woman shows up was horrendous. My girlfriend busted up laughing

I think it works when she shows up, but it's fucking awful that you hear it for the first time when Bruce looks at a picture of her.

 

[Metroidvania]

Lex knowing not only Superman, but also Batman, was just a huge 'wat' moment. Like, it had to be that way because of the plot's demands, but....ugh.

Between that, Eisenberg's terrible 'quirkiness', Batman straight up mowing bad guys down, (and why is the brand a death sentence? Because it means the crook was left alive because he squealed?), Batman having been around for X years despite only coming up now in Metropolis news (and only being known as the Gotham Bat?)

I'm torn on Affleck's portrayal. I think he plays a decent 'Psycho bat' batman, but I can't put my finger on whether or not it's him, or Snyder's characterization that makes me hate him as Bruce Wayne, or 'only' a vicious, dispirited caricature of the Detective, or anything regarding Batman's character beyond the violence and paranoia.

 

[TimeInc]

Best things about the film were Batman's costumes, especially loved the armoured suit. and also Gal Gadot.

 

[bob_arctor]

That guitar riff when Wonder Woman shows up was horrendous. My girlfriend busted up laughing

Jesus Christ. That shit was dope as fuck. Smh. Maybe I'm missing out on the "Everything's corny" train, I dunno.

 

[Brakke]

That guitar riff when Wonder Woman shows up was horrendous. My girlfriend busted up laughing

I loved that shit. It was like the only self-aware thing in the whole movie.

 

[Garlador]

Because in that moment, when Bruce is getting ready to end this alien god who he believes sees himself as above us, the last words it choses is "You have to save Martha". That's enough to throw Bruce off because it's his mother's name who he's obviously been thinking about a lot lately (not to mention the note that pushed him over the edge in to doing all this was "You let your family die!" or something to that effect). That's enough to get his attention. Then he finds out Martha is his mother and what he cares about most in his dieing moment is to make sure his mother is safe and at that moment he stops seeing the nigh-invulnerable alien. He just sees himself getting ready to murder a man who selflessly cares about his mom, and all of a sudden Bruce can relate. And it's extremely hard to demonize or de-humanize someone you can relate to and empathize with.

I have a lot of problems with the movie, but the Martha moment works for me.

But that's why it doesn't work for me...

What if one of those guys Batman was shredding up with bullets had a mother named Martha? What if one of the badguys he crushes to death has a mother he was sending money to to pay for hospital bills? What if any of the people he wantonly snuffs the life out of had ANY family whatsoever that cared for them or mourned them.

And you might say "it's just a movie, you're overthinking it", but that's something that has really defined Batman as a character for decades, because his origin was a young boy whose family was yanked away from him. I know it's not fair to bring up the nigh-perfect Bruce Timm and Paul Dini version, but they explicitly state that almost no hero in the DCU can empathize with suffering and tragedy, or value life as a result, like Batman can, because his circumstances created him to be one of the most compassionate and empathetic heroes alive.

So the Martha moment "works"... for Superman. In isolation. For that one scene. But it fails as something related to the character and the rest of the movie as a whole, because it shouldn't matter that her name is Martha. "Everyone has/had a mother" after all, and that isn't exclusive to the "god" Superman. Yet you won't be seeing Batman extend that same mercy to the hired thugs he obliterates and kills... but if he paused for a microsecond and realize "holy cow, they might have mothers TOO!" would that stay his hand? Or would they have to specifically have the name "Martha" to quell his murderous rampage?

It's not the Martha moment in an of itself that I find ridiculous, but the notion that this one particular circumstances snaps him out of his murder rage, that if Clark's mother had the name "Judy" or something, he'd still end up pummeling him to death, or the simple thought that the "World's Greatest Detective" can't process that criminals or dangers to society might also be people with family, friends, and loved ones. If it was the Joker, and Joker called out "Harley!" in his dying gasps, would Bruce not kill him? If he was fighting Mr. Freeze and he screamed out "Nora!" would this version cease his attack? If it was Thug #6, John, being shot at with Batmobile missiles and he blurted out "mommy!" would Batman suddenly develop his conscience?

What makes the Martha scene ridiculous is just how morally compromised you have to make Batman - mutilated as a character beyond all recognition and repair - so that you must intentionally excuse his other acts of murder because this one guy (who, I remind you, IS partially responsible for the deaths of hundreds) also has a mom like Bruce once did (and, like, 100% of the planet has). I mean, even "Martha" isn't that uncommon a name. It's in the top 70 most popular female names of the last 100 years. Statistically, I'm willing to bet this version of Batman has left a few mothers named "Martha" grieving over their dead sons. It's just a shame he didn't hear their names over the sound of his machine gun fire.

 

[Veelk]

Because in that moment, when Bruce is getting ready to end this alien god who he believes sees himself as above us, the last words it choses is "You have to save Martha".

Actually, his last words would actually have been "You're letting him.... kill Martha!"

This is a minor thing that I don't think detracts from your general point, but when people talk about it, they always frame it as Superman pleading with Batman. In actually, it's an accusation. If Martha dies, it's because Batman let them. It still gets the same point across, I know, and when Batman asks what he said, he says "Find...him....Save....Martha..." You could say that he's giving a command here, but lets be generous and say it's a plea.

But it just kind of shows how antagonistically minded this film is, thematically speaking. Even at Superman's weakest moments, in trying to save his own mother, they write his line to be a placement of blame onto the guy's opponent. Even at the end, it's about how the other one is wrong somehow.

 

[Cuburt]

Batman is giving a speech about how Superman must be killed if there is even a 1% chance, but he throws that out the window and becomes his friend when he hears the name Martha.

What if "Martha" was Doomsday?

Good job for not sticking to your guns Batman, now you just doomed everyone because you thought you and Supes were BFFs and he was going to help you fight someone like that but instead they are going to tag team you through a wall.

Way to fall for the oldest trick in the book. The old "lie about your alien mom's name to be the same as your enemy's dead billionaire parents so you can take over the world". Gets em every time.

 

[charsace]

I disagree. I think the first 20 minutes was all we needed to see why Bruce Wayne goes to battle with Superman. What we missed was an establishment of Batman's position in the world. One scene establishes him as a new vigilante, unknown to the policeforce, the next makes us believe he's been around for a while, another makes you wonder if he's retired... there's never a sense of Batman's presence in the world.

For instance; the sex-traffickers. The cops show up and they find the batarang in the wall. It would've been perfect if they'd relax and say "ah, good, the bat is here." or "what the hell is that?" or "is he back?". It establishes Batman's connection to the world.
Instead, they draw a blank and fire on Batman when they see him. Now that COULD establish something, but it also allows for an interpretation that he fired in panic.

For instance, take this scene from The Dark Knight Rises:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBicn4PqLFY

it establishes that Batman is back, how the cops feel about it, and that he's a known entity to the policeforce, without relying on the previous 2 films. All that in mere seconds.

Similarly, you could establish his no-kill policy and how he drifted from that (although they do allude to that in the scene with "20 years, how many were good, how many stayed that way?", it indicates that he's fed up with his lack of real accomplishments).

Instead, after the first 20 minutes, the movie assumes you know Batman, not only that, you know Snyder's interpretation of Batman, and that's where things go sideways.

We didn't need another origin movie for batman. We needed a movie with Batman fighting crime in a post superman world with them interacting a little bit through out the movie. That way people could get to know the batman of this universe and have some build up for a Batman V Superman movie.

This movie had to much going on. This resulted in the movie being sloppy and incoherent.

 

[Krogan]

That guitar riff when Wonder Woman shows up was horrendous. My girlfriend busted up laughing

Yep felt very out of place.

 

[Son Of D]

I think it works when she shows up, but it's fucking awful that you hear it for the first time when Bruce looks at a picture of her.

Most dramatic email ever.

 

[neojubei]

Just rewatched Superman Returns on HBO GO again. Quick history, first time liked it, second time I found it boring. Now this third time, I founded well directed. I smiled in a few places. I...I loved it.
I had the same problems that everyone else had with it, but because of Star Trek ITD, and Star Wars TFA (which are basically Wrath of Kahn and A New Hope respectively), it's a lot easier to take in Superman Returns.
It also helped was that I got tired of Snyder's Superman. Singer's Superman is closer to what I believe the character should be.

The plane scene alone is why superman is who he is and none of that was in either man of steel or BvS.

 

[Poona]

That guitar riff when Wonder Woman shows up was horrendous. My girlfriend busted up laughing

It was the most exciting bit in the whole film. My fave part. I hear many audiences even cheer.

Batman was about to get blasted then WW shows up to save the day with that tune. I think it's the most purchased track from the soundtrack on iTunes, and is the most played one on YouTube.

I think it works when she shows up, but it's fucking awful that you hear it for the first time when Bruce looks at a picture of her.

I liked it there too. Like it's playing to help you recognise the shock of finding such an old picture of her, and a hint to the awesomeness she is.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

That guitar riff when Wonder Woman shows up was horrendous. My girlfriend busted up laughing

Nope, it's one of the best tracks in the film. Break up with gf is the only acceptable response.

 

[bob_arctor]

Nope, it's one of the best tracks in the film. Break up with gf is the only acceptable response.

*noddingbeardedguy.gif*

 

[Tabby]

Break up with gf is the only acceptable response.

You just want to swoop in and take her for yourself.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

I think it works when she shows up, but it's fucking awful that you hear it for the first time when Bruce looks at a picture of her.

Lex's theme doesn't work either. It's this big, dark boom thing and it goes with Eisenberg's whimsy performance, it's very jarring when you're pausing the movie in your mind going "wtf is with this music?". It's too bad, because I enjoy Zimmer's work on the DC superhero movies at least, and with a more powerful brutal style Lex would have worked, but I don't think the script had that in it. "You can't judge a script by the movie" be damned, because I personally think you can do that to some extent.

Though aside from soundtrack, the worst thing about Wonder Woman was that she got punched away by Doomsday, and she gets up with that 'oh that turns me on' bullshit. I don't know if that's her actual character in the comics, but selling the idea of a woman needing to enjoy a beating is just not something I would consider putting in a movie these days. Not because the character couldn't be like that, but because there was no reason to assume she's kind of character to begin with (unlike Xena: Warrior Princess, who did this shit all the fucking time, but that was a different era).

But that dream sequence.... what... I can't believe Snyder really feels that's supposed to be a dream sequence, when it's cut in with the encryption, leading you to assume it had something to do with that or something...? Oh, and jobbing Lex at the end. Like, really? That's what your leaving us with? Superman's nemesis being some other bad's little princess bitch?

fuck this movie. I hated Man of Steel too... actually pretty much every movie Snyder has mad. Dawn of the Dead segment at the ending / credits comes to mind, where the Romero version wisely focuses on the 'new' occupants of the mall.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Nope, it's one of the best tracks in the film. Break up with gf is the only acceptable response.

Relationship-GAF advice: always applicable.

 

[CloudyTuba]

Just rewatched Superman Returns on HBO GO again. Quick history, first time liked it, second time I found it boring. Now this third time, I founded well directed. I smiled in a few places. I...I loved it.
I had the same problems that everyone else had with it, but because of Star Trek ITD, and Star Wars TFA (which are basically Wrath of Kahn and A New Hope respectively), it's a lot easier to take in Superman Returns.
It also helped was that I got tired of Snyder's Superman. Singer's Superman is closer to what I believe the character should be.

Singer's Superman gets the attitude right because Donner's Superman did. I already have the big Superman bluray multipack, but I like that there is a cheap combo pack available that has 1, 2 (Donner Cut) and Returns together. Whoever put that together knew what they were doing.

Since I've always been interested more in the 'man' behind the 'super', I'm one of four people who really liked Superman Returns. I will admit that I think the ideal Superman movie is somewhere inbetween Returns and MoS. They're two opposite extremes.

With BvS retroactively highlighting for people the shortcomings of MoS (which I hated), I've noticed the tide shifting more in my favor recently. Woooo, maybe they'll be five or six of us now. I'll get the nametags ready.

 

[Arnie7]

Hopefully Lex Luthor beefs up in prison for Justice League.

 

[Aexact]

people who hate the workout scene have no soul. that was probably the best thing about the latter half of the movie tbh. these superhero movies lack a dope training scene and it sold bruce as a real beast of a physical specimen. it was nice to see him prepare for action for once.

Man.
Like, when going up against a beyond-human superbeing, no amount of physical training will stop building destroyer, car smashing, concrete cracking Superman from turning Batman to puree. Batman works up a sweat pulling a tire, the power levels are too extreme. Making the kryptoniye gadgets in that montage was a more fun preview of the fight to come

 

[Discotheque]

Man.
Like, when going up against a beyond-human superbeing, no amount of physical training will stop building destroyer, car smashing, concrete cracking Superman from turning Batman to puree. Batman works up a sweat pulling a tire, the power levels are too extreme. Making the kryptoniye gadgets in that montage was a more fun preview of the fight to come

that was great too. but nah he was building up his strength to be able to maneuver in that power armor which I assume was heavy as hell.

plus he pulled superman with the grappling hook. the batworkout helped (it's likely just showing bruce's usual routine anyways to keep in batman shape)

 

[Dahbomb]

Man.
Like, when going up against a beyond-human superbeing, no amount of physical training will stop building destroyer, car smashing, concrete cracking Superman from turning Batman to puree. Batman works up a sweat pulling a tire, the power levels are too extreme. Making the kryptoniye gadgets in that montage was a more fun preview of the fight to come

A weakened Superman could run through walls and break Batman's armor. He absolutely needed every bit of the extra edge he could get. Plus that armor seemed like it took a lot of effort to move around in, Batman was moving much slower in this fight than when going against Luther's goons.

Also he smacked Superman with a toilet sink, those things are super heavy!

 

[brochiller]

Man.
Like, when going up against a beyond-human superbeing, no amount of physical training will stop building destroyer, car smashing, concrete cracking Superman from turning Batman to puree. Batman works up a sweat pulling a tire, the power levels are too extreme. Making the kryptoniye gadgets in that montage was a more fun preview of the fight to come

He wasn't necessarily training to beat Superman with his strength, but he need to train so that he could last long enough against Superman to hit him with everything he could.

 

[HammerFace]

that was great too. but nah he was building up his strength to be able to maneuver in that power armor which I assume was heavy as hell.

plus he pulled superman with the grappling hook. the batworkout helped (it's likely just showing his usual routine anyways to keep in batman shape)

You just reminded me about that power armor. I feel like its inclusion was kind of nothing. Like i feel like it really didnt add to much to the mix of the fight. I mean I guess it made Batman stronger but I was kind of hoping it would have had at least some sort of effect on pre-gassed Superman.

 

[Cuburt]

Batman doing a few extra reps isn't gonna do shit against Superman's strength though.

Batman's brain and skill is clearly going to be his most valuable strength in that fight and yet Snyder still chooses to focus on Bruce building his muscle. Just a weird decision.

Would have made more sense to see him building and testing the strength of his suit.

 

[Discotheque]

Batman doing a few extra reps isn't gonna do shit against Superman's strength though.

Batman's brain and skill is clearly going to be his most valuable strength in that fight and yet Snyder still chooses to focus on Bruce building his muscle. Just a weird decision.

it was to handle the power armor. and also to keep in shape.

hell they went so on the nose to even have him swing the sink overhead AND pull superman with the rope...just like the tire.

people keep thinking he was working out JUST for superman but nah, it was probably the usual batman workout. he has to stay in shape to fight.

 

[JB1981]

Batman doing a few extra reps isn't gonna do shit against Superman's strength though.

Batman's brain and skill is clearly going to be his most valuable strength in that fight and yet Snyder still chooses to focus on Bruce building his muscle. Just a weird decision.

Yea he kinda showed that too though with him further refining and weaponising kryptonite

 

[Poodlestrike]

Batman doing a few extra reps isn't gonna do shit against Superman's strength though.

Batman's brain and skill is clearly going to be his most valuable strength in that fight and yet Snyder still chooses to focus on Bruce building his muscle. Just a weird decision.

Would have made more sense to see him building and testing the strength of his suit.

The suit is apparently not something he made for this fight. Was originally for riot control and such.

And I dunno, I think the split between the physical and tech scenes (him building the Kryptonite weapons) was decent.

 

[GekigangerV]

Batman doing a few extra reps isn't gonna do shit against Superman's strength though.

Batman's brain and skill is clearly going to be his most valuable strength in that fight and yet Snyder still chooses to focus on Bruce building his muscle. Just a weird decision.

Would have made more sense to see him building and testing the strength of his suit.

How much time passed between Batman acquiring the kryptonite and fighting Superman? I don't recall it being all that long of time.

A workout segment really only works if it is a montage to show over a period of time of weeks to months. Working out the night before the big showdown would only put Batman at a disadvantage with the risk of being to worn out or tearing a muscle.

You are right about showing building a suit. They kind of hint at it earlier, but it just shows up at the fight.

Needed to follow the advice of Team America/South Park's montage song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK4gv11PTI8

 

[Dahbomb]

All the work out paid off when he dispatched those Luthor goons. Dude was looking damn super human in that fight.

 

[Cuburt]

it was to handle the power armor. and also to keep in shape.

hell they went so on the nose to even have him swing the sink overhead AND pull superman with the rope...just like the tire.

people keep thinking he was working out JUST for superman but nah, it was probably the usual batman workout. he has to stay in shape to fight.

Should they show his normal breakfast routine to make sure you know he didn't fight on an empty stomach? A normal workout doesn't seem as relevant if it's not for directly preparing for the fight, at least in narrative terms.

I did notice the rope on the tire paralleling him pulling Superman but it doesn't explain how he was able to swing him around like a Mario64 Bowser fight with no wind up while also smashing Superman through multiple (stone? concrete?) pillars.

Yea he kinda showed that too though with him further refining and weaponising kryptonite

Yeah that was fine and fit right in with him preparing for the fight.

The suit is apparently not something he made for this fight. Was originally for riot control and such.

And I dunno, I think the split between the physical and tech scenes (him building the Kryptonite weapons) was decent.

It would be fine if he wasn't fighting Superman. Seems Batman would want to cover his ass more than repurposing a suit designed for humans or whatever. It also doesn't explain how he's able to withstand being thrown through bricks or swing Superman through pillars if there were no upgrades.

How much time passed between Batman acquiring the kryptonite and fighting Superman? I don't recall it being all that long of time.

A workout segment really only works if it is a montage to show over a period of time of weeks to months. Working out the night before the big showdown would only put Batman at a disadvantage with the risk of being to worn out or tearing a muscle.

You are right about showing building a suit. They kind of hint at it earlier, but it just shows up at the fight.

Needed to follow the advice of Team America/South Park's montage song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK4gv11PTI8

It's true that it's probably a short period of time but Batman only had decided to fight Superman after getting his hands on the kryptonite. He didn't know what The White Portuguese was until he finds out it's a ship and only then he gets the kryptonite to be able to hang with Superman (do they ever show that he knows what it is or how it effects Superman? I don't think Superman even knows what it is until he's gassed with it).

 

[Discotheque]

Should they show his normal breakfast routine to make sure you know he didn't fight on an empty stomach? Who cares if it's not directly preparing for the fight.

that's quite facetious. it's a perfectly normal scene. agree to disagree though.

i just don't find it strange that it's showing a clearly jacked bruce wayne staying fit. plenty of other movies/tv shows have small throwaway scenes of a fit person doing pull ups or whatever.

they basically just montaged the infamous 'prep-time' that batman is known for.

 

[Alandrus Sun]

And that moment fails, precisely because Superman ISN'T HUMAN. He's a nigh-invulnerable god-man who had a huge hand in leveling an entire city and ending hundreds of lives, and yet Batman decides "men are still good" despite the fact that, you know, Clark IS partially responsible for all that death and destruction, is still extremely violent and dangerous, and who knows how many thugs Batman killed or mutilated who also had mothers named Martha. Batman created a lot of widows, orphans, and grieving mothers...

Outside of the brand (which he doesn't exactly discard...), Batman still seemed just as murder-happy and lethal after his faith in "humanity" is restored... even though a being from across the stars died to stop a rampaging monster created by a deranged, evil, and very-human megalomaniac.

Every time I remember that Martha moment, I just completely fail to take anything seriously.

Here's the truth though such a moment could work if it were in the hands of a proper director with emotions and feelings as opposed to the objectivist, dude-bro that is Snyder. It's not like other movies, even a recent "superhero" movie haven't done something similar recently:

This scene gets a lot of people teary-eyed, myself included, because it is setup properly and thus the ending scene feels like a proper pay-off. The "Martha" scene is barely setup to a point that it makes any sense and the resulting climactic moment feels utterly disconnected from the reality of the moment. Here's a slight change that would feel 1000x more emotional and land an appropriate impact.

Bruce witnesses his parents get gunned down and begins to shake his mother screaming, "Mom! Mom! Get up! Help!" He looks up to see the gun of Joe Chill pointed at him but then Chill chickens out and runs away. When Superman is on the ground he calls out for his mother and the words "Help." We then flashback to the alley murder and Bruce realizes that he has become Joe Chill, the thug with a "gun" about to kill an innocent "boy." He proceeds to throw the spear away.

 

[Discotheque]

i thought the mom stuff wasn't particularly good in guardians either (except for the gift at the end) but yeah your version of the scene would have played way better.

again the idea was great but the execution sucked.

 

[Cuburt]

that's quite facetious. it's a perfectly normal scene. agree to disagree though.

i just don't find it strange that it's showing a clearly jacked bruce wayne staying fit. plenty of other movies/tv shows have small throwaway scenes of a fit person doing pull ups or whatever.

they basically just montaged the infamous 'prep-time' that batman is known for.

I don't have much of a problem with it, I just felt like it was one of several scenes in the film that just aren't efficient with their economy of storytelling. It's annoying where there are so few character developing moments or murky details about events after apparently being cut down from a longer running time, it's confusing why they chose to still do certain things like that considering the circumstances.

The montage itself was fine but it cuts to like 3 separate weight training scenes and like 2 separate kryptonite weaponizing scenes. Essentially he's still only doing 2 different things to prepare for what is the biggest fight of his life. Just seemed weird to me.

 

[Harmen]

Hopefully Lex Luthor beefs up in prison for Justice League.

Why? So he can maybe throw Batman a punch? I'd rather see him get his shit together mentally and make some sense in JL.

 

[Cuburt]

Here's the truth though such a moment could work if it were in the hands of a proper director with emotions and feelings as opposed to the objectivist, dude-bro that is Snyder. It's not like other movies, even a recent "superhero" movie haven't done something similar recently:

This scene gets a lot of people teary-eyed, myself included, because it is setup properly and thus the ending scene feels like a proper pay-off. The "Martha" scene is barely setup to a point that it makes any sense and the resulting climactic moment feels utterly disconnected from the reality of the moment. Here's a slight change that would feel 1000x more emotional and land an appropriate impact.

Bruce witnesses his parents get gunned down and begins to shake his mother screaming, "Mom! Mom! Get up! Help!" He looks up to see the gun of Joe Chill pointed at him but then Chill chickens out and runs away. When Superman is on the ground he calls out for his mother and the words "Help." We then flashback to the alley murder and Bruce realizes that he has become Joe Chill, the thug with a "gun" about to kill an innocent "boy." He proceeds to throw the spear away.

Good point. I don't know if your solution is what they were going for, but it's a good example of how to make something that's supposed to resonate with the character also resonate with the audience.

I disagree with the Martha scene barely being set up. They did too much set up: Long parents death scene. Bruce visiting his parents tomb with a big "MARTHA WAYNE" front and center before he has some weird bat dream. Bruce moping at a burnt down Wayne Manor staring at a plaque. Then at the actual scene Lois has to spell out Martha is his mother's name for Bruce (and the audience) while they once again flashback to the scene where his parents die with his father whispering "martha....." while he dies.

The execution is just bad. There is no set up for the audience knowing his Clark's mother is named Martha (that I noticed in the film) and first names are a clumsy way of tying it all together since namedropping won't have much emotional resonance with the audience regardless how many times you hammer it in their heads, not to mention the fact that they aren't awkwardly going to talk about their mothers calling by their first name anyways.

I get that Snyder felt they needed to have the parents being murdered scene to be the emotional core of Bruce, but besides everyone already knowing that story, he could have instead have it be brief and using some of that time building up his relationship with his mother in a scene between the two of them where they cleverly give them a reason to say her name(instead of the cave scene in the beginning, for instance). Then cut to his parents' murder. Then show a similar scene with Clark and his mother, but this doesn't have to be a flashback, it could just be present day establishing that his father is dead (catching the audience up with the events of MoS) and how important his relationship is with his mom, since her and Lois are all he has left. She could be going to work and Clark remarks at her having to wear a nametag. Close up on "Martha Kent". Boom. You've successfully set up the scene that will pay off later.

 

[Rydeen]

Hopefully Lex Luthor beefs up in prison for Justice League.

haha never noticed Black Bolt and Captain Marvel on Cady's prison cell wall, neat. Either Scorsese or De Niro are Marvel fanboys.

Bruce witnesses his parents get gunned down and begins to shake his mother screaming, "Mom! Mom! Get up! Help!" He looks up to see the gun of Joe Chill pointed at him but then Chill chickens out and runs away. When Superman is on the ground he calls out for his mother and the words "Help." We then flashback to the alley murder and Bruce realizes that he has become Joe Chill, the thug with a "gun" about to kill an innocent "boy." He proceeds to throw the spear away.

I'll go one better: As Bruce hears Clark say "Martha", it then cuts to Bruce having a vision of his dead mother and father in front of him in Crime Alley, with 8 year old Bruce looking up at him teary-eyed, with Bruce in place of Joe Chill, horrified, looking down at himself holding the gun to really sell it, only to be snapped by to reality by Lois running in. THAT would've been an amazing call-back and an incredible way to sell that Bruce has become the monster he's set out to destroy.

 

[Falchion]

Holy shit, just got out of the theater. After seeing all the negative reactions I was expecting absolutely nothing from this so I kept waiting for it to get bad, and it never did.

That was a really good movie. Sure it has its faults and you can tell some stuff was rushed but I really enjoyed it and can't wait for the R rated full cut on the BluRay.

 

[Alandrus Sun]

I'll go one better: As Bruce hears Clark say "Martha", it then cuts to Bruce having a vision of his dead mother and father in front of him in Crime Alley, with 8 year old Bruce looking up at him teary-eyed, with Bruce in place of Joe Chill, horrified, looking down at himself holding the gun to really sell it, only to be snapped by to reality by Lois running in. THAT would've been an amazing call-back and an incredible way to sell that Bruce has become the monster he's set out to destroy.

Boom. Bingo. 100x better.

Overall, I still feel there is a problem with this resolving the BvS fight as it's not exactly a big enlightening moment for Batman nor does it resolve the climax of the film since the Doomsday fight is right after which is resolved through sheer brute force without any sort of team work or new found moral knowledge. Batman basically learns that he's acting like a dick and this "alien" is a "human" being with a mother and father he loves and who love him. It's not a Peter Quill moment nor is it a Bruce Wayne flashing back to his father lifting him up from the Batcave invigorating him to escape The Pitt.

But all that said, what you and I suggested would make the moment work WAY better than what is present in the actual film.

 

[HeySeuss]

Add me to the workout scene was dumb side. It wasn't dumb because it was unnecessary, IMO. It was dumb because it was a single day workout. The timeline of events in the movie didn't allow him to be gone long enough for any kind of workout that would make any tangible difference in that short period of time. This wasn't like Rocky 4 where he's spending a month in isolation to train for the fight. This was only a day or two at most.

 

[Poodlestrike]

haha never noticed Black Bolt and Captain Marvel on Cady's prison cell wall, neat. Either Scorsese or De Niro are Marvel fanboys.


I'll go one better: As Bruce hears Clark say "Martha", it then cuts to Bruce having a vision of his dead mother and father in front of him in Crime Alley, with 8 year old Bruce looking up at him teary-eyed, with Bruce in place of Joe Chill, horrified, looking down at himself holding the gun to really sell it, only to be snapped by to reality by Lois running in. THAT would've been an amazing call-back and an incredible way to sell that Bruce has become the monster he's set out to destroy.

This feels really really really really really really on the nose to me.

 

[Alandrus Sun]

Add me to the workout scene was dumb side. It wasn't dumb because it was unnecessary, IMO. It was dumb because it was a single day workout. The timeline of events in the movie didn't allow him to be gone long enough for any kind of workout that would make any tangible difference in that short period of time. This wasn't like Rocky 4 where he's spending a month in isolation to train for the fight. This was only a day or two at most.

Well, one could imply that this is his daily workout regiment. I don't mind the training sequence as it's basically visually telling the audience that Bruce is getting ready for a fight, that along with the montage of him developing the Kryptonite weapons. It doesn't have to make total sense when analyzed but should make "narrative" sense in terms of building us up to a climax.

This feels really really really really really really on the nose to me.

Because everything else in the movie is really subtle?