R_thanatos
Member
i feel the same. IF this new gameplay isn't obvious to a player and if he isn't Heavily encouraged to use it or can play a game to completion without it , then there is a definitive problem in term of game design.
Angry Joe Quantum Break Review.
- Thread starter Gamezone
- Start date
i feel the same. IF this new gameplay isn't obvious to a player and if he isn't Heavily encouraged to use it or can play a game to completion without it , then there is a definitive problem in term of game design.
That is failure of your education system
May very well be, I would agree, but even then that is the scale me and most of the people I know where graded fro K-12 and then through college. So that's about around 20 years or more of using the same scale. It would certainly affect/influence any other grading scale we use.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
This.
All the goalpost and narrative building to shoot this down is well... transparent as all hell.
This is objectively wrong. They do flush you out. Cover doesn't benefit you long. Stay in cover and you will die.
He played it like an idiot, plain and simple. If you think hiding in cover is the best way to play, you don't understand the game.
dragonflys545
Member
Lol... I like how people here are bringing up Uncharted 4. It's like when one game gets review mediocre or average, they wish or expects the others to follow. But then again going by videos alone there's more gameplay in Uncharted 4 than there will ever be in this game.
D20CritMiss
Banned
you and I might have different ideas on what successful means in this context. Fact is Joe called and played it as a cover shooter and it simply is not that. Yes you can take cover, but it's not missing blind/hip fire because its a bad cover shooter. The player isn't given that option in order to make them adapt to what they have to work with. Some reviewers didn't adapt, just put head down and bulled on and complained about what a hard time they had with it.
Wait, you mean like the guys who force you to use power and movement to shoot at the chronon equipment on their backs, because they'll kill you in cover, are invulnerable from the front, and require power use to outflank their rotation?
If hiding in cover is a bad way to play the game then they shouldn't have littered the levels with cover props and had the character auto hide behind them.
But the way to play it is heavily pushed. It's also heavily encouraged.
You can't beat the game without moving and using time powers...period. Someone show me Act 5 being completed just playing it as a cover shooter without time powers...on heck...Normal. I'd even be happy to see it on easy (I've not played it on easy).
What goalpost shifting? The same exact, accurate, criticism of his Review has been ignored page after page. You have a couple people engage it a little while the majority ignores it and harps on the same negatives over and over.
I hope to God his review of UC4 isn't as off-base and silly as the QB review or that thread will be a blood bath.
I expect Uncharted 4 to be incredible....if it's as good as QB (I expect better) then it will be GOTY material.
He had it down to one, lowest tier enemy that refused to approach him. If you can't place the situation in context...and realize that 99% of the time that wouldn't ever happen, then quit arguing about it.
Lister
Banned
Lol, he showed a segment of the strema in which he was AFK for severl aminutes while behind some cover and he didn't die, even though there was a guy shooting at him from a flanking positon.
Thebeardofknowledge
Banned
No one on this forum will ever take you serious spouting this tinfoil hat nonsensical bullshit.
RichiRamjag
Member
So spot on. It's almost pathetic. That people can take such pleasure in this kind of rubbish is pretty sad.
Then again, arguing against a review for 17 pages isn't much better.
dragonflys545
Member
His reviews are long and he goes in-depth with all the positives as well as negatives. I think Angry Joe just prefers certain types of games over others (RPG)
Lister
Banned
Well, I think it shows an exmaple of precisly what he is tlkaing about: brain dead AI.
You getting angry doesn't refute that.
R_thanatos
Member
You seem to have misunderstood my POV.
I'm not saying that you will play or finish the game without the time powers .
But many posters against this review and attacking his way of playing are saying that he "didn't get it" or that it was "dull gameplay".
And i answer , why should that matter ? If he completed that act 5 in a dull way , by not exploiting the cooldown loop of quantum break between habilities and choose instead to opt for a defensive approach with some time powers to help him , THEN it's still a valid way to play.
If the design of the game allow the later , even if the former is better or more fun , it's STILL a valid way to finish the game.
I'm not sure why people keep pointing this out as if this is how all encounters go. AI isn't perfect in any game and for the most part in QB they do a good job of putting you under pressure and flushing you out of cover. In my two playthroughs I never encountered anything like what Joe had in his video.
Messofanego
Banned
And the argument is that one example doesn't generalise to the whole game.
Again. Do you think these people just forget to use the time powers or something?
It's a common complaint in a lot of the reviews that the time powers go underutilized. Some of them don't seem to be all that effective in combat and often using them simply isn't necessary. Even in the OT you have people mentioning that they've basically been using just one or two of the time powers because the others seemed kinda useless. Pair that with a auto-crouch behind cover system and yeah, people are often going to play this as a shooter.
Is that all of these people playing the game wrong? Or maybe, just maybe, Remedy should have incentivized the use of these powers a bit more. Made them more versatile, more fun to use, more engaging. You think people would be skipping out on them if that were the case?
This nonsense that people are 'playing it wrong' isn't something to solely blame on the player. It's how Remedy created the system and the powers simply aren't clicking for some people while they are for others.
Nobody is forcibly denying themselves the pleasure of using the time powers. They just didn't find a whole lot of excitement in doing so. Who is honestly to blame for that?
D20CritMiss
Banned
The real point is the same thing could be found in any game if the person playing is looking for that type of thing to film. I'm hours and hours into it and that's not the experience I've had. Its cherry picked and non representative.
Not even slightly angry
. It's an example of something that didn't happen in 24+ hours to me..and it's not something I've seen anyone else show in any other thread. It did happen, and there's a good reason...the enemy AI looked to be in a spot where it was NOT going to advance at a disadvantage. Obviously it wasn't smart enough to know the guy quit playing..lol.I could possibly replicate it by creating the same scenario though.
I'm fine with that POV. It's not the same as what some here have insinuated.
Perhaps both sides. The player for not being creative enough, or trying to push the mechanics, and perhaps Remedy for not hand-holding enough and spelling it out for them or by making the game easier than it should have been.
Thinking about it...I think they should have put a NG+ difficulty. Make it so just a couple hits kills, and if you don't move you're dead. (I'd have been fine with that being the Normal setting XD)
I still don't know how people are dying 50 times and not changing their play-style. I'll admit I wouldn't enjoy that either.
Edit* Great...now I want a NG+, thanks Hoo-doo
Edit Note: People got mad/annoyed/upset/irritated about dying in the boss fight...haha. I can't imagine the complaints if the game had actually been really hard.
Freeman76
Member
The dude you replied to just blindly defends the game with no decent arguments, and probably didnt even watch the review, i wouldnt waste your time.
Artvanderlay
Member
Didn't dispute the fact that the TV show segments were utterly pointless , glad we agree.
Yeah, really a fair and balanced opinion on the situation you got there.
Remedy isn't actually to blame because all those people are so damn bad at playing videogames, right? Way to blame players while patting yourself on the back because of your elite gaming prowess. You're missing the forest for the trees.
It doesn't surprise me that people don't put much effort in. (not directed at you) This game has some of the most amazing combat mechanics I've seen in a long time. You can do wonders with them. You can stack bullets, change the timing of when attacks hit, who they hit, etc.
Plus...it looks amazing in typical Remedy fashion.
Got damn.
And yeah it's a shame. Your'e basically a superhuman in the game and can do some crazy stuff. There's such a large level of difference in the way you can play the game and use Jacks powers.
Thought I was pretty badass while playing haha, but I'm going to have to try out some new stuff.
D20CritMiss
Banned
Huh? Asking why a review isn't int he the review thread is tinfoil? whats the purpose of a review thread if just any review can merit its own thread?
lol, ok if you need it spelled out for you, I disagree entirely that the tv show was pointless. I personally liked that it allowed me to see the story from more angles and dive a bit deeper into supporting characters than is typically done.
FootballFan
Member
such a strange way of interpreting bad design choices, "You are not playing it right" is a terrible position to take
this
Actually...I totally screwed that up.
I meant they hand held too much AI/difficulty wise, or they may have made it too easy to not use the entire repertoire. Allowing the time powers to not be used as much as they could have been. (so I agree with that)
In other words...making it so you absolutely had to use the time powers or you were dead.
Much like the souls games. If you don't use the mechanics to play through the game...you're not going to enjoy it at all. You can't get through it just swinging your sword...where as in QB you probably could get through it just using a single power, but that doesn't sound fun either. Stringing together combos and kills in seconds is possible..rather than trudging along in cover. I can see where they could have pushed you into that in a better way.
Discovering the mechanics is somewhat on the player though. That's why I said both.
Just fyi, most impressions I've read from people who have actually played the game (mine included) were those who found the combat mechanics quite enjoyable. Let's not pretend the majority of people were on the same page as Joe.
D20CritMiss
Banned
So if a player is having a bad time because he's not taking advantage of all the options to him, and refuses to learn, refuses to adapt, its the developers fault? lol.
scoobs
Member
Yes it is. The player should learn how to use your game systems by the time he's done playing the game. Tutorials probably aren't good enough at explaining why you'd want to combo all the abilities together or something?
Jeff Gerstmann had a similar criticism and suggested they'd have been better off implementing a combo system of sorts, rewarding and encouraging players to combo abilities and not simply play it as a 3rd person cover shooter.
If he is progressing in the game without serious problem, yes. If playing he game the "right" way is essential to the game's enjoyment, it should be manditory.
If players aren't incentivized to use features/mechanics or they aren't just fun to use and players still manage to play through the game and finish it without them? Yes it is very much the fault of the game design.
Eitherway, AJ didn't think the game was average because he didn't use the mechanics enough or too little, so it really doesn't matter.
speedomodel
Member
He raises some good points. Still having an absolute blast and see this being in my top 3 of the year.
SlasherJPC
Banned
Sure but the difference between those that enjoy said game and don't can be huge where you fall. For example, Dark Souls games can indeed be played very poorly and people still finish them through attrition and lots of frustration.
Dougieflesh
Member
You aren't finishing a Dark Souls game unless you play "the right way"
7echnicolor
Member
It's funny cause there ARE times in the game where you have to use most of the abilities given to you. How a player can go through QB only using his guns is beyond me.
I didn't need the developer to point that out to me, I adapted to and learned with every situation. There was no hand holding needed. The amount of freedom given to the player in QB is refreshing.
I didn't need the developer to point that out to me, I adapted to and learned with every situation. There was no hand holding needed. The amount of freedom given to the player in QB is refreshing.
The difference there would be "attrition and lots of frustration." That does not seem to be the case with QB. It seems people are finishing it just fine "playing it wrong."
Wait so there is a "right way"?
SlasherJPC
Banned
Finishing it and saying they think the cover system is broke or shit and that the combat is weak. I mean... it's just a game not for everyone. Those that utilize everything the game throws at them seem to appreciate it more then those that play it like a standard shooter. That's all I'm getting at.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Yeah, the way that goes against criticism of a game you are a fan of... duh!
7echnicolor
Member
👍 yep, perfectly said.
I'm responding to everyone that says he (and other reviewers) were "playing the game wrong." No, they were playing the game thy were given. If Remedy wanted people to play it a certain way, they should have made that the only viable way of playing.
Ninja Scooter
Member
exactly. Well designed games will guide you to play the way the developers want you to play. I can't beat Dark Souls, or Devil May Cry, but just mashing the X button. If I could, would people discount that as a critique of the game because that's how I chose to play the game?
People's response in the case of QB seems to be "But look at all the cool shit you can do with the powers **insert gif**" but if none of that is necessary to play or advance in the game, what good is it?
FootballFan
Member
👍 yep, perfectly said.
I want to explore this further, because I might have used that argument some point.
For me argument is currently thus: if staying in cover and shooting is just as tactically efficient - or maybe even more efficient - as staying out of cover and using time power loop, then staying in cover cannot be considered "wrong way" of playing.
I think, this argument will be invalided if someone can prove that staying in cover is not as tactically efficient.
I don't know how they could have made it any clearer between the tutorials, power upgrades, time shifting enemies, and scripted segments where you have to use your powers. Other than flashing on the screen "HEY USE YOUR POWERS"...or making the game just impossible (it's hard as is without using your powers) then I don't think they could make it any more evident. This is a third person shooter and by design the game has to have guns and has to have shooting so at a bare minimum it can be played like that however everything in the game is pointing you to not play like that.
Ok I chuckled lol.the "git gud" way
I agree. Though, I don't think he played the game the "wrong" way or whatever.
I just think he played it in almost the worst way you could: as a cover shooter.
You should play it like your quicksilver with guns. <--- Best tagline
7echnicolor
Member
😉
Forcing myself to sit through his live stream play-through. (although he spends more time not playing than actually playing).
These guys are struggling at times, sheesh.
There's one segment I saw that I'm going to have to point out when I have time tomorrow. It involves them taking like 5 tries to complete one of the easiest puzzles in the game, then reacting and commenting when their comments aren't even close to what happens..lol. I'm going to try an play that section to see if I can not only do what they were initally trying, but other ways too.
They even had to pause the game, and look at the controller to see what button to use, and still screwed it up. They had been playing for hours at that point. Haha
These guys are struggling at times, sheesh.
There's one segment I saw that I'm going to have to point out when I have time tomorrow. It involves them taking like 5 tries to complete one of the easiest puzzles in the game, then reacting and commenting when their comments aren't even close to what happens..lol. I'm going to try an play that section to see if I can not only do what they were initally trying, but other ways too.
They even had to pause the game, and look at the controller to see what button to use, and still screwed it up. They had been playing for hours at that point. Haha