Modernising 3D platformers - Insomniac has shown me the way

W

Walpurgis

Banned
I recently finished Ratchet and Clank and was simply enthralled by it from start to finish. Unlike many, I don't actually have a lot of experience with PS1/PS2 platformers like Crash, Jak and Daxter, Sly Cooper and even Ratchet and Clank. Other than Super Mario Galaxy on the Wii and Sonic Heroes on the PS2, 3D platformers are an unexplored genre for me. I have never had anything against them, it's just that the PS3 (when I started gaming hardcore) did not feature many.

I previously assumed that this was because 3D platformers were outdated and archaic and since most of them are old....that is technically true. After A Crack in Time (which I should probably play now), Insomniac released a string of bombas that didn't inspire much confidence in modern 3D platformers and Sly Cooper: Thieves in Time wasn't much help on that front either (reception-wise). So PlayStation wasn't looking good to me and there wasn't much going on with Xbox so it seemed to me that only Nintendo was capable of producing consistently high quality games of old (i.e. platformers). I wasn't invested in the genre but I did find this a little sad.

But Ratchet and Clank has opened my eyes. Insomniac has shown me that 3D platformers don't have to suck or be outdated. They've shown me that we don't just have to leave the genre to Nintendo. And they have shown me that a classic 3D platformer can work well today with modern gameplay.

There were many points during my play through of Ratchet and Clank that had me recalling Sonic Heroes and it made me think about the Sonic franchise in general. After so many crappy Sonic games, I just figured that kind of gameplay doesn't work in 3D but now, I actually think that Sega needs to call Insomniac to develop a 3D Sonic game. Because I know that Insomniac would knock it out of the park.

This
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is not necessary to succeed today.

TL;DR: I thought 3D platformers weren't popular anymore because they sucked and I thought they sucked because they were outdated. Insomniac's Ratchet and Clank on PS4 has completely changed my view. There is room for 3D platformers in today's market as long as they are made with love and care by a talented team.

As a newcomer, Ratchet and Clank truly was a breath of fresh air. I hope developers look at Ratchet and Clank as a template for 3D platformers going forward. And I hope Ratchet and Clank's success invigorates this beautiful genre.

edit: Okay, I get it guys. Ratchet and Clank is a 3rd person shooter with platforming elements but that wasn't my point. :p I guess instead of "3D platformers", I should have written "mascot games" or something.
 
Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2, and Super Mario 3D World don't feel like outdated, archaic games to me in any way.

That being said, Ratchet and Clank is definitely a really great series and I'm excited to play through the new game (which I've owned since launch but haven't gotten around to yet).
 
I've played one ratchet and clank but it didn't really feel much like a platformer to me. At least it wasn't the emphasis
 
James Scott said:
3D World/Land and Galaxy aren't that old and they're pretty amazing.
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I don't have a Wii U but I have no doubt that Nintendo hasn't lost their magic unlike some others.
Nosgotham said:
I've played one ratchet and clank but it didn't really feel much like a platformer to me. At least it wasn't the emphasis
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It was a 3rd person shooter and platformer but the platforming was really good, imo. I would play an entire game starring Clank.
 
R&C is good, but still has a way to go before being a great platformer (like Nintendo ones).
It's more of a basic action game, the platformer genre problem isn't modernizing it, it's just risky (audience budget etc).
 
Firstly, Sly Cooper: Thieves in Time was a lot of fun, and secondly, they're not outdated, it's just that people stopped making them

Mario games have always been great, so have R&C

There was just a point in time a decade or so ago where games got more expensive to make, and games like platformers and survival horror games were suddenly ditched in favour of stuff that would presumably sell better
 
Ratchet and Clank is not a platformer. Seriously some people have really played way too few actual platformers to say that a game with 70% shooting (at best) is a platformer. It's like saying God of War is a platformer because it has some jumping and a few puzzles here and there.

Insomniac has done nothing to "modernise" 3D platformers, if modernising 3D platformers means throwing in waves of enemies and explosions and giving way more importance to that by reducing the jumping and puzzles to an almost insignificant amount then I'm out of the genre. If anything, Nintendo, Sanzaru and the developers of Yooka-Kaylee and a Hat in Time should be praised instead. Stop giving Insomniac the credit they don't deserve. They make good games but they're not 3D platformers.

The last game they made that could be considered a 3D platformer is R&C1. None of their games since that have been a platformer.
 
I totally agree. I think a reimagining of previous platformers could really benefit each respective series. Crash Bandicoot, for example, could easily be reimagined in the same way R&C was. If the right team does it, it can turn out great.

I'd almost wonder what a reimagining of Banjo-Kazooie would be like, but BK still holds up mostly, so I'd rather they "reimagine" in the form of a true sequel to Tooie.

James Scott said:
3D World/Land and Galaxy aren't that old and they're pretty amazing.
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Agreed. But they're a little different than 3D platformers that favour some exploration, like Banjo-Kazooie back in the day, or Ratchet and Clank then and now.



I think devs stopped making them (mostly) because they assumed we were tired of them. There may even have been some fatigue. But it's clear that more and more people are wanting them back lately. Yooka-Laylee's successful Kickstarter shows that, R&C being so well-received shows that (although it's a great game anyway), and so on.

I say bring us a new 3D Donkey Kong game, with lessons learned from DK64 on how not to make it tedious.
 
expected more reasons to how R&C modernized 3D platformer and what Insomniac did to show you the way.

also like someone above, they are much more TPS than platformer in my mind, great ones, but more of a hybrid,
 
Ratchet and Clank is a cinematic TPS with the main draw of the gameplay being the weapon variety and upgrade system, it has platforming elements at best. I enjoyed my playthrough of ToD but it's not a franchise I'm dying to get back into.

EAD Tokyo's 3D Marios are the pinnacle of not only 3D platforming but also of design. They introduce a new mechanic at every corner and manage to find creative applications to keep things fresh throughout a level. I think they're the best developer on the planet since 2007.
 
Ratchet hasn't done anything to "modernize" 3D platformers. There's nothing done in the new R&C that they weren't already doing on PS3 and PS2, it just looks prettier. Sly Cooper Thieves in Time was the exact same deal, so I'm not sure why that game got such a bad reception compared to R&C. In fact, that game was much more of a platformer than Ratchet is.
 
I suppose my definition of "platformer" is loose but you have to understand my lack of experience in the genre and the PS3 gen and PS4 gen being so lacking in that respect.
 
Yeah, I also don't agree that R&C is really a platformer. It's a shooter/action game with platforming elements.

That said, I'm super impressed by the game. I'm really enjoying it and that's coming from someone that doesn't have a lot of love for the franchise. I went back and popped in the PS2 games and even Tools of Destruction on PS3 (which looks insanely good still) and I immediately understood why - the controls. The older games just feel sluggish in comparison and there was a certain level of "generic" to the environments on PS2. Hard to explain, but the games just feel muted and uninteresting.

The PS4 game, though? It's rock solid. Hugely improved controls that feel more responsive even at half the frame-rate, beautiful worlds to explore, and a feeling that you're playing a CGI movie.
 
I never considered ratchet and clank to be a platformer. Most of the time you're just shooting shit ie 70% of the time

Anyway what you want is more character action adventures op. Some of them are pretty good but they end up pretty boring due to collectatheons being added, or kill this amount of X enemies to move on. Which I dislike.
 
James Scott said:
Yeah, sonic heroes was bad even when it released.
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I liked it but it feels outdated going back. I forgot to mention that I rented Ape Escape as a kid as well.

The broader point of my thread is that all of these games can come back, be good and sell well today while making old fans and new fans happy. Others may have already known that but it really is news to me.
 
There's nothing archaic about 3D platformers, there are and were plenty of great ones, don't let one of the worst Sonic games paint your perception of the genre.

3D platformers probably fell out of favor because violent shooters/linear story-heavy games started to gain popularity, and 3D platformers tend to be light on story and low on violence.
 
Walpurgis said:
I liked it but it feels outdated going back. I forgot to mention that I rented Ape Escape as a kid as well.

The broader point of my thread is that all of these games can come back, be good and sell well today while making old fans and new fans happy. Others may have already known that but it really is news to me.
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I hope we see a Sly 5

The fact they're also making a Sly film gives me hope, all 4 of the Sly games are fantastic, and I only played them for the first time a few years ago
 
Nosgotham said:
I've played one ratchet and clank but it didn't really feel much like a platformer to me. At least it wasn't the emphasis
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My take is that it's as much of a platformer as Contra is. It generally doesn't have all that much in the way of particularly challenging platforming content - although it's adequate - with the main focus of the challenge being the shooter component.
 
Walpurgis said:
I suppose my definition of "platformer" is loose but you have to understand my lack of experience in the genre and the PS3 gen and PS4 gen being so lacking in that respect.
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I highly recommend you to grab a Wii - they are dirt cheap used, after all! - and play Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2.
 
Outside of the camera position which is classic TPS, R&C has more in common with the Lego games than what are traditionally considered 3D platformers.
 
The OP's thoughts make me feel that the real problem with a lot of people is lack of awareness. The new R&C isn't anything new; it's just a quality execution of pretty much the same design, to a T, as an R&C game from a decade ago.

It's not that these games are outdated, it's not that they're "bad" because they're old. They fell out of favor because the industry chased new fads, like open world sandbox games and military shooters. Most people won't search for non-obvious entertainment and will just go along with whatever is popular and visible.
 
LordRaptor said:
Outside of the camera position which is classic TPS, R&C has more in common with the Lego games than what are traditionally considered 3D platformers.
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Yes I can agree with this. Except the R&C controls feel WAY better. The Lego games feel a lot clunkier.
 
Kai Dracon said:
The OP's thoughts make me feel that the real problem with a lot of people is lack of awareness. The new R&C isn't anything new; it's just a quality execution of pretty much the same design, to a T, as an R&C game from a decade ago.

It's not that these games are outdated, it's not that they're "bad" because they're old. They fell out of favor because the industry chased new fads, like open world sandbox games and military shooters. Most people won't search for non-obvious entertainment and will just go along with whatever is popular and visible.
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Right. I and with many others really have no idea how fun these games can still be.

DownGrader said:
I highly recommend you to grab a Wii - they are dirt cheap used, after all! - and play Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2.
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I actually do have a Wii. It's been collecting dust for 4-5 years now. I haven't bought Super Mario Galaxy yet because it's expensive but I did borrow the first one when I was a kid. But Ratchet and Clank has awakened a craving that only Nintendo can satisfy. I think I will buy it after UC4.
 
Absolutely loved R&C although I would agree that it is really not a platformer at all. The little platforming that is in the game, is done very well though IMO.
 
There isnt really anything "modernised" about the new r&c game..

Its essentially just a prettier version of the original with some story alterations.

I suggest playing tools of destruction + A crack in time + The HD trilogy on the ps3.

Sly 4 is pretty good, its mostly on par with the original 3.

Jak & Daxter HD trilogy also on the ps3.

Play Ape Escape on ps1 and #2/3 on ps2 if you ever get the chance, top tier stuff.
 
ScOULaris said:
R&C is definitely not a platformer. Not even a little bit.
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Come on now, it has a decent amount of platforming elements. I can't comment on this game as I haven't played it yet, but the ps3 titles had a good amount of platforming focused sections.

While I don't blame people for considering this an action/shooter game at first, as that is a bigger focus of the game. The platforming in the games has been by no means just a throw away thing like it is in the God of War games (which is why I think those comparisons are way off base).

Anyways, based off the ps3 series of games (can't comment on this one yet), I really love the platforming that is in these games,and I even stated as much before that I would love for insomniac to handle a Crash 4 or remake if that were ever happening, as I feel they'd be able to do it justice. If I enjoy the platforming in these games that much already (despite their primary focus being on the variety of guns/tps action), I would love to see what they'd be able to do with a game that is almost solely focused on platforming.
 
Well, is the new Ratchet selling well? Platformers going away wasn't an issue of quality, but of shifting target audiences. Most games these days don't cater to kids and young teenagers anymore, but to older teenagers and twenty-somethings. Mascot platformers generally aren't what that audience is looking forward to.
 
wrowa said:
Well, is the new Ratchet selling well? Platformers going away wasn't an issue of quality, but of shifting target audiences. Most games these days don't cater to kids and young teenagers anymore, but to older teenagers and twenty-somethings. Mascot platformers generally aren't what that audience is looking forward to.
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Yes.
 
platformer or not, i'm pretty sure Ratchet and Clank (2016) is largely a remake of the 2002 game with little in the way of new or innovative mechanics/ideas. i'm in the same boat as OP, and I love the new R&C, but in many ways to me it feels like a game rooted in the early days of the PS2. pretty sure it's not "modernized" in the larger scheme of things.
 
Walpurgis said:
I actually do have a Wii. It's been collecting dust for 4-5 years now. I haven't bought Super Mario Galaxy yet because it's expensive but I did borrow the first one when I was a kid. But Ratchet and Clank has awakened a craving that only Nintendo can satisfy. I think I will buy it after UC4.
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FYI: most Nintendo games (especially the likes of mainline Super Mario, Mario Kart, Zelda etc.) don't usually drop in price heavily, keeping their "evergreen" status up until they become "retro" and start to be more expensive. However, if you are in UK, you can dig up Nintendo Selects ("platinum") versions of Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2. And I suppose the price went slightly lower due to these games being released in the digital format for Wii U.
 
Phew, this thread finally confirmed for me that I'm not going crazy for not considering R&C to be much of a platformer series.

A lot of Sony's mascot games from the PS2 era are like that: Jak & Daxter more or less became vehicle/racing focused after the first game's honest attempt at being more along the lines of Banjo-Kazooie and Sly has always had a big minigame component to it (though the frequency changes from game to game).
 
Kai Dracon said:
The OP's thoughts make me feel that the real problem with a lot of people is lack of awareness. The new R&C isn't anything new; it's just a quality execution of pretty much the same design, to a T, as an R&C game from a decade ago.

It's not that these games are outdated, it's not that they're "bad" because they're old. They fell out of favor because the industry chased new fads, like open world sandbox games and military shooters. Most people won't search for non-obvious entertainment and will just go along with whatever is popular and visible.
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Ah I got the same sense from the OP - doesnt sound like hes played those games, just heard they were bad/sold bad. I recently played R&C from the HD collection and I enjoyed it enough to get the Platinum (which if you know the trophies is a real time waster). Its only the UI that felt 'old' the gameplay was more than good...

Its a shame everything seems to revolve around shooters/open world, theres some quality games out there irrespectively of what genre interests you - its an ignorance that seems to have borne things like 'ergh indie games' sadly

ps3ud0 8)
 
wrowa said:
Well, is the new Ratchet selling well? Platformers going away wasn't an issue of quality, but of shifting target audiences. Most games these days don't cater to kids and young teenagers anymore, but to older teenagers and twenty-somethings. Mascot platformers generally aren't what that audience is looking forward to.
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It has surpassed Sony's expectations (selling it on Amazon like Until Dawn so stock was low) and is selling well on the UK charts. You are probably right about the target shift but I think Ratchet and Clank's success has revealed that there is room for a mascot game today.
John Rabbit said:
platformer or not, i'm pretty sure Ratchet and Clank (2016) is largely a remake of the 2002 game with little in the way of new or innovative mechanics/ideas. i'm in the same boat as OP, and I love the new R&C, but in many ways to me it feels like a game rooted in the early days of the PS2. pretty sure it's not "modernized" in the larger scheme of things.
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That is the feeling I got. A rooted in the past feel (e.g. no cover) but with modern gameplay (checkpoints, accessible health recovery and other stuff that I normally expect these days).
Rikkun said:
This.
Heroes is not even a metric for 3D Sonic games.
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I actually have nothing against Sonic Heroes. I played it as a kid and loved it. When I was talking about bad Sonic games, I meant the more recent ones.
 
R&C games aren't platformers because their main challenge is not platforming - ie precision jumping and maneuvring. They're action games, you run and shoot. Sometimes there's isolated platforming.

There are good games like that, also ones that are not R&C. But there are extremely few examples of great pure 3D platforming like the Mario series presents. It's not just a challenge developers seem ready to takeo n.
 
With the new Ratchet selling well,and being great, Sony should get a team on doing a remake of similar quality for PSP's Daxter.

Love that game. Seeing it in HD with bigger levels would be amazing.
 
Maybe OP should of worded it something like R&C mix of action and platforming is the right way to engage allot of gamers today.

A platformer by itself would only sell well to a Nintendo audience, the market and what most people want is very different between consoles imo..
 
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