So, Polygon 'playing' Doom...

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This footage just reminds me of almost everyone who first moved from the PS1/SNES Generations to the PS2/Xbox generation. Maybe this player prefers old school games or was expecting DOOM 64 controls. The only problem that should come up is if they don't eventually learn that you can move both sticks at the same time.

That's how I play fps with a controller, lol! Give me M+KB and my skill level increases 10x.

This is really odd to me if true, it's like saying you can't walk and chew gum at the same time wearing dress shoes and you need basketball shoes to do it properly. I'm not saying you should be a master level player when transitioning, but I think if you're using your right hand for the mouse to aim and left hand on the keyboard to move, this should translate somewhat to controller and you should be capable of moving and shooting at the same time unless you are playing southpaw.
 
I found some hidden footage of the player going about his daily life...

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He probably just wasn't even trying though.
 
Why is that not up for debate? What is bad about the footage? That they didn't have a high enough accuracy on their shots? Like, really, if you break it down you see just how elitist this view is. If you throw me into a genre I've never played before it would take me a while to learn how to play. That doesn't make my views or my footage of me playing said game bad.
Being able to move a character in a 3D environment is an incredibly basic requirement that is not met in the video. Again with my last statement, they are presenting this as a preview of the game. Don't hand that off to the person who has never played an FPS on a console.
 
Why is that not up for debate? What is bad about the footage? That they didn't have a high enough accuracy on their shots? Like, really, if you break it down you see just how elitist this view is. If you throw me into a genre I've never played before it would take me a while to learn how to play. That doesn't make my views or my footage of me playing said game bad.

I'd say if you can't move more than one analog stick you are bad, yeah.

I've given family members from under 6 to 60-something a controller to play games and they can use a controller not even minutes into picking it up.
 
Im gonna assume he was playing one handed

blindfolded

while unders stress cuz his house was on fire

so I mean, given those circumstances, who are we to criticize
 
Elitism is something that happens when your standards for people or the things they produce (which is something everyone has whether they like it or not) reaches a level that makes other (or the same?) people uncomfortable. "Stop being elitist" sounds like "stop having standards". In things that "matter", like food preparation or science, you would never be called elitist. Maybe videogames or their analysis don't matter (i.e., for your safety), but since this is a videogame forum...

EDIT: Moreover, if someone is the "hardcore gamer" caricature you think they are, why do you think they are bothered by being called elitist? That's like throwing money at rich people.
 
Why is that not up for debate? What is bad about the footage? That they didn't have a high enough accuracy on their shots? Like, really, if you break it down you see just how elitist this view is. If you throw me into a genre I've never played before it would take me a while to learn how to play. That doesn't make my views or my footage of me playing said game bad.

Do you ever find yourself thinking "I bet a bunch of people would be really interested in watching this" while you suck at a game? If you worked at a games site would you volunteer to cover a game you suck at?

It's fine if someone sucks at games, even if they work at Polygon, but it seems weird that they'd be chosen to cover games that they suck at. Footage of someone sucking at a game may not be bad, but it is kind of pointless. How many people are interested in Doom, have no clue how to play an FPS, and want an opinion from someone in the same boat? In comparison, how many people who watch Polygon content DO have a working knowledge of how FPS games work?


At usual with these things it's the editors' reactions that are troubling to me, not the actual egg-on-face moment. They uploaded a video of someone sucking at Doom, it's funny and baffling that it happened, but so what? But then you have other employees like Gies getting defensive on Twitter saying stuff like "Oh, sure, like you've never sucked at a game before!"

You write about games for a living. No need to take it so seriously or get so defensive over something so small. Explain why the video was made, make a note that that type of content isn't popular, and move on.

Elitism is something that happens when your standards for people or the things they produce (which is something everyone has whether they like it or not) reaches a level that makes other (or the same?) people uncomfortable. "Stop being elitist" sounds like "stop having standards". In things that "matter", like food preparation or science, you would never be called elitist. Maybe videogames or their analysis don't matter (i.e., for your safety), but since this is a videogame forum...

From what I've seen a lot of game writers don't take criticism well. Gies and Kuchera will block people on Twitter for disagreeing with them. I know they get a lot of vile shit sent their way and it gets old sorting out constructive or genuine feedback from a bunch of people telling them they should be burned at the stake, but whenever something like this happens editors seem to get defensive and disregard any criticism. Like with this video thing, how hard would it have been to say "Oh yeah, I can see how this would be worrying if people think that we don't have any sort of skill requirements for reviews, but we do." Or "We've seen some people worry that since Doom is really fast that they may not be able to play it, so we made a video to show that it's friendly to al skill levels, we should have made that clearer."

But no, instead the response basically boils down to "Oh, you're so high and mighty, like you've never made a mistake." It's not "We'll do better," it's "We're only human, what do you expect?"

My point being that the people running the sites who create video game content don't seems to have much in the way of standards, and often use the same "Stop being elitist" response that the posters defending them here are. So holding them to any sort of standard or expecting them to learn anything when they do something like this or the Mario Kart graph seems to be a fool's errand.
 
Elitism is something that happens when your standards for people or the things they produce (which is something everyone has whether they like it or not) reaches a level that makes other (or the same?) people uncomfortable. "Stop being elitist" sounds like "stop having standards". In things that "matter", like food preparation or science, you would never be called elitist. Maybe videogames or their analysis don't matter (i.e., for your safety), but since this is a videogame forum...
I don't know if you're talking about a specific post or in general, I have not kept up with the thread, but I don't think that asking for a videogames review site and its employees to be able to use two sticks to navigate a 3D space in 2016 is elitism.
 
I don't know if you're talking about a specific post or in general, I have not kept up with the thread, but I don't think that asking for a videogames review site and its employees to be able to use two sticks to navigate a 3D space in 2016 is elitism.

According to some of the posters in this thread, asking for basic competency in a subject is elitism.
 
Why is that not up for debate? What is bad about the footage? That they didn't have a high enough accuracy on their shots? Like, really, if you break it down you see just how elitist this view is. If you throw me into a genre I've never played before it would take me a while to learn how to play. That doesn't make my views or my footage of me playing said game bad.

I don't know how anyone can watch it and not agree that's hard to watch. Isn't what's wrong with the footage obvious? The person playing can barely handle twin stick movement in a 3D space. This isn't some high difficulty learning curve skill people are expecting but if you're going to preview what the game is about to people (assuming most people who watch said video are the audience interested in that game) at least get someone with enough gaming literacy to show it off.

I don't buy the elitism argument at all. If people were complaining about how the player wasn't headshotting each demon while making use of high mobility without being hit you'd maybe have a point but the person playing seemingly has no understanding in how to even use a controller. It's not unreasonable for person to be at least competent in whatever field they are in.

Game mechanics is basically a language in itself. I am not the greatest gamer or all time. But I have accrued enough knowledge over my time playing games that you can drop me into any genre/game type and knowing all the information I've learned I'd be able to pick that game up fairly quickly. You'd maybe have a point if the FPS genre wasn't the most prolific and enduring genre and the video's express purpose was highlight new players experience in the genre. But it isn't. This isn't you or me releasing our gaming footage because who cares if we're bad at games? This is a reputable gaming website releasing preview footage so people can gauge what the game offers and is about. Which this video fails at spectacularly.
 
Elitism is something that happens when your standards for people or the things they produce (which is something everyone has whether they like it or not) reaches a level that makes other (or the same?) people uncomfortable. "Stop being elitist" sounds like "stop having standards". In things that "matter", like food preparation or science, you would never be called elitist. Maybe videogames or their analysis don't matter (i.e., for your safety), but since this is a videogame forum...

EDIT: Moreover, if someone is the "hardcore gamer" caricature you think they are, why do you think they are bothered by being called elitist? That's like throwing money at rich people.

Elitist and classist tones have been building for years now in the game sphere, especially with the massive onset of mobile games. The whole "mobile games are not real games", and by assocation, "people who play mobile games aren't gamers" arguments are all a part of this discussion. And in that respect - yes, it absolutely does make me feel uncomfortable that people who are fans of this thing I love think they are somehow in a separate untouchable class than others. This thread included.

I'm not delusional to the point of thinking this same group that posts about how terrible the player was on E3 off-screen videos (who ARE often experienced players, even) would back down and be more welcoming to people of different backgrounds. I'm just hoping that at least some would re-evaluate why a) it matters at all that a player is not as skilled as they are in footage on a game and b) need a website to "sell" them on said game to begin with.
 
Elitist and classist tones have been building for years now in the game sphere, especially with the massive onset of mobile games. The whole "mobile games are not real games", and by assocation, "people who play mobile games aren't gamers" arguments are all a part of this discussion. And in that respect - yes, it absolutely does make me feel uncomfortable that people who are fans of this thing I love think they are somehow in a separate untouchable class than others. This thread included.

I'm not delusional to the point of thinking this same group that posts about how terrible the player was on E3 off-screen videos (who ARE often experienced players, even) would back down and be more welcoming to people of different backgrounds. I'm just hoping that at least some would re-evaluate why a) it matters at all that a player is not as skilled as they are in footage on a game and b) need a website to "sell" them on said game to begin with.

The initial 'outrage' is not because they're not 'gud enuf', it is that the player apparently doesn't know how to use a twin stick controller. From a high profile game reviewing outlet, that is disconcerting and definitely warrants a thread. We shouldn't make this about elitism however. As someone pointed out earlier, if a car would be reviewed by someone who did not know how to drive, people would be asking questions too.
 
Elitist and classist tones have been building for years now in the game sphere, especially with the massive onset of mobile games. The whole "mobile games are not real games", and by assocation, "people who play mobile games aren't gamers" arguments are all a part of this discussion. And in that respect - yes, it absolutely does make me feel uncomfortable that people who are fans of this thing I love think they are somehow in a separate untouchable class than others. This thread included.

I'm not delusional to the point of thinking this same group that posts about how terrible the player was on E3 off-screen videos (who ARE often experienced players, even) would back down and be more welcoming to people of different backgrounds. I'm just hoping that at least some would re-evaluate why a) it matters at all that a player is not as skilled as they are in footage on a game and b) need a website to "sell" them on said game to begin with.

But if you start treating casuals like people, next thing you know they'll want to vote, or get rights. Our economy is based around these casuals, so treating them like we do superior players would be a death knell for the industry! /s

I hope that sounds familiar because I had to go out of my way for it
 
I'm not delusional to the point of thinking this same group that posts about how terrible the player was on E3 off-screen videos (who ARE often experienced players, even) would back down and be more welcoming to people of different backgrounds. I'm just hoping that at least some would re-evaluate why a) it matters at all that a player is not as skilled as they are in footage on a game and b) need a website to "sell" them on said game to begin with.
I agree about the E3 off-screen footage.

I will happily defend almost any off-screen E3 gameplay, because I've played plenty of games on convention floors and it's almost impossible to concentrate on what you're doing.
 
As a first look from a professional outlet it's woefully inadequate. It's painful to watch and it looks like someone is controlling it with their feet. Their other doom vids are apparently normal so it's a screw up on the part of polygon for putting out such a poor quality video. Thats really all there is to it, it has nothing to do with elitism.
 
Maaaaan, I really don't see how people expecting someone to have some basic level of competency in using a controller is elitism. It's not "averagejoe.com presents the first 30 minutes of doom" its fucking polygon.
 
I don't know how anyone can watch it and not agree that's hard to watch. Isn't what's wrong with the footage obvious? The person playing can barely handle twin stick movement in a 3D space. This isn't some high difficulty learning curve skill people are expecting but if you're going to preview what the game is about to people (assuming most people who watch said video are the audience interested in that game) at least get someone with enough gaming literacy to show it off.

I don't buy the elitism argument at all. If people were complaining about how the player wasn't headshotting each demon while making use of high mobility without being hit you'd maybe have a point but the person playing seemingly has no understanding in how to even use a controller. It's not unreasonable for person to be at least competent in whatever field they are in.

Game mechanics is basically a language in itself. I am not the greatest gamer or all time. But I have accrued enough knowledge over my time playing games that you can drop me into any genre/game type and knowing all the information I've learned I'd be able to pick that game up fairly quickly. You'd maybe have a point if the FPS genre wasn't the most prolific and enduring genre and the video's express purpose was highlight new players experience in the genre. But it isn't. This isn't you or me releasing our gaming footage because who cares if we're bad at games? This is a reputable gaming website releasing preview footage so people can gauge what the game offers and is about. Which this video fails at spectacularly.

If I ran a board game site and had a weekly fun video playing a board game with brand new random people (of varying experiences), you'd get a completely mixed bag on proficiency. Why do you require I only invite seasoned board game players to the table for the video. What if my intent is to merely show board games, engage in board game culture. What part of the Polygon video said "Serious Game Review Time: DOOM". And hell, I'd even argue if it did, the new game player's take on it would be every bit as valid. Just because they aren't as dexterous on the twin sticks as people here doesn't make their views less valuable.

If anything we should be welcoming new blood into this space as it's incredibly healthy and helps to evaluate where we are and where we're headed.

Edit: also,

The initial 'outrage' is not because they're not 'gud enuf', it is that the player apparently doesn't know how to use a twin stick controller.

Those are the same thing.
 
It isn't elitism. There is creeping elitism in gaming but it's mostly from "games as art" people who dislike games for being low brow fun. After all there is not much that is more elitist than art and art criticism.
 
No it is not the same thing. There is a difference in using a twin stick controller (apparently) for the first time and not understanding how that works, and being bad at a game. Just like being a bad driver is not the same as not knowing how to drive.

And this perspective proves my point even more. They "drove the car". They just didn't drive it well enough to your liking. They knew what buttons to press, how to move, how to aim, how to shoot, how to do melee attacks, etc. If you've never touched a controller before it would look much rougher than this. The analogy just doesn't hold water in this case.
 
I'm not so sure this is a legitimate argument, but it might be worth a discussion on journalistic integrity.

If you are incapable of playing a game the way it was designed to be played, than that could potentially color your enjoyment of the game.
Obviously, Polygon is going to struggle to enjoy the game therefore giving a low score. It would be advisable to recuse themselves and play something mechanically simpler?
 
And this perspective proves my point even more. They "drove the car". They just didn't drive it well enough to your liking. They knew what buttons to press, how to move, how to aim, how to shoot, how to do melee attacks, etc. If you've never touched a controller before it would look much rougher than this. The analogy just doesn't hold water in this case.

Sticking to the analogy, I wouldn't suggest that person get on a public road if they do not know how to use the steering wheel (left stick) and shift gears (right stick) at the same time.
 
And this perspective proves my point even more. They "drove the car". They just didn't drive it well enough to your liking. They knew what buttons to press, how to move, how to aim, how to shoot, how to do melee attacks, etc. If you've never touched a controller before it would look much rougher than this. The analogy just doesn't hold water in this case.

They obviously don't know how to do the basic things you mentioned. Picking up a controller and hitting all the buttons randomly is not equivalent to understanding.
 
Elitism is something that happens when your standards for people or the things they produce (which is something everyone has whether they like it or not) reaches a level that makes other (or the same?) people uncomfortable. "Stop being elitist" sounds like "stop having standards". In things that "matter", like food preparation or science, you would never be called elitist. Maybe videogames or their analysis don't matter (i.e., for your safety), but since this is a videogame forum...

EDIT: Moreover, if someone is the "hardcore gamer" caricature you think they are, why do you think they are bothered by being called elitist? That's like throwing money at rich people.


yup.

Being Elitist has changed from "git gud noscoping only/90% K/D ratio" to "pressing buttons" apparently.
 
I did the same thing first time I did a driving simulation. My body doesn't feel the car reacting to my steering like it can in a real car so I instinctually oversteer. I imagine it must take time playing driving simulators with a wheel with a 3rd person camera to get used to that.
In all fairness the video isn't as bad as the gif. Though he does seem to have a problem with the concept of braking going into a turn.
 
there's still a difference between playing a game "right" and just using a controller right tho

I looooooooooove Max Payne 3 and I think a ton of people (press included) gave it a bad rep cause they played it as a cover shooter with a controller

I played that shit with kb/m bullet-timing headshots by launching into the air all the time, like every Max Payne game before it

I tried to do that on that same level of difficulty with a gamepad and the game seemed to encourage you to take cover much more, which was way more boring

that said; that's valid, I think you'd have more fun playing the game a different way but that's not the way everyone's gonna play it

that's not whats happening here tho
 
I'm not so sure this is a legitimate argument, but it might be worth a discussion on journalistic integrity.

If you are incapable of playing a game the way it was designed to be played, than that could potentially color your enjoyment of the game.
Obviously, Polygon is going to struggle to enjoy the game therefore giving a low score. It would be advisable to recuse themselves and play something mechanically simpler?

People earlier in the thread were using a Giantbomb example on their inability to play Quantum Break the way it was designed, therefore coloring their perception of the game negatively.

It's a give and take. If the reviewer can't play the game the way it was designed to be play, some of that blame lies on the game for not being able to properly transfer the necessary mechanical knowledge on how to play the game. We see that all the time with more complex games that have shit tutorials. But then again, games in general demand a knowledge base just to continue in general that no other medium has. So how much should it expect the player to know already while also trying to appeal to as many people as possible.

I also think it doesn't help that we haven't really had a game like Doom in a long while, especially on consoles. There've been a few Doom-like games like Shadow Warrior, but I think people take for granted just how little practice people have had on Doom-esque games where shit moves fast and there's little aim assist. It's not at all like CoD or Halo where you can just pick off enemies from a distance, and from what I can tell there's very little aim assist in the footage which makes a pretty big difference.
 
Dude you're just being comically aloof now. There is nothing about Doom that is a large departure from the standard mechanics of the dozens of FPS that come out every year.
 
Elitist and classist tones have been building for years now in the game sphere, especially with the massive onset of mobile games. The whole "mobile games are not real games", and by assocation, "people who play mobile games aren't gamers" arguments are all a part of this discussion. And in that respect - yes, it absolutely does make me feel uncomfortable that people who are fans of this thing I love think they are somehow in a separate untouchable class than others. This thread included.

I'm not delusional to the point of thinking this same group that posts about how terrible the player was on E3 off-screen videos (who ARE often experienced players, even) would back down and be more welcoming to people of different backgrounds. I'm just hoping that at least some would re-evaluate why a) it matters at all that a player is not as skilled as they are in footage on a game and b) need a website to "sell" them on said game to begin with.
It's not about "Selling" the viewer on the game, and implying that is a disingenuous take on the arguments being made. If a game is poorly made, a preview should showcase that. But it should showcase it by someone trying to show the game being played correctly and failing, not by throwing any random person on the controller and letting them bumble their way through. That method helps the consumer in zero ways and thus, makes the video a pointless waste of time and resources.

What it's about (And what ANY preview is about) is providing the consumer with a reference to how a game works so the consumer can decide if they want to purchase the product or not.

This video does not do that. It helps no one. It doesn't provide a clear view on how the game works. There is no one in the video contextualizing that the person has no idea what he's doing, so it could easily be interpereted that the game is janky or broken because it is clear that the person playing is having trouble controlling it. So not only is it not doing what it's intended to do, it could debatably be doing the exact opposite of what a preview is supposed to do and leading people to misinterpret the games design or controls.

That's it. Anyone claiming that expecting basic competency in content made to inform or showcase a product to consumers is elitist is grasping at the last pathetic straw they can find to try and discredit the arguments of people who disagree with them.
 
And this perspective proves my point even more. They "drove the car". They just didn't drive it well enough to your liking. They knew what buttons to press, how to move, how to aim, how to shoot, how to do melee attacks, etc. If you've never touched a controller before it would look much rougher than this. The analogy just doesn't hold water in this case.

If this person wrote for a car magazine and posted themselves on YouTube driving the car by swerving all over the road and stalling the engine, it would be mocked as much as this is.
 
If I ran a board game site and had a weekly fun video playing a board game with brand new random people (of varying experiences), you'd get a completely mixed bag on proficiency. Why do you require I only invite seasoned board game players to the table for the video. What if my intent is to merely show board games, engage in board game culture. What part of the Polygon video said "Serious Game Review Time: DOOM". And hell, I'd even argue if it did, the new game player's take on it would be every bit as valid. Just because they aren't as dexterous on the twin sticks as people here doesn't make their views less valuable.

If anything we should be welcoming new blood into this space as it's incredibly healthy and helps to evaluate where we are and where we're headed.

Does the person playing said board game understand the concept of pieces? Or how a dice works? or would you have to assume they know literally nothing about board games and explain stuff that it'd be easy to assume everyone knows via osmosis (pieces can move across the board, Roll a dice for the number of moves for example).

New people playing games is cool. Just don't expect me to take their opinions at face value when they struggle to move two sticks at once or to find watching footage of that struggle compelling. Especially when the intention of the preview is to showcase what the game is. Which is the context of why people are ripping this video shreds.
 
This thread keeps going in circles.

I will never understand the argument that a professional reviewer in a specialized outlet shouldn't have an extensive knowledge of all similar products in the field.

Not every games critic needs to play every game, but to review an FPS you should be a regular player of FPS'.

Sure, there is value in reviews of things by people who are outsiders, but if you're Polygon, you are presenting yourselves as people who are primarily focused on games.
 
If I ran a board game site and had a weekly fun video playing a board game with brand new random people (of varying experiences), you'd get a completely mixed bag on proficiency. Why do you require I only invite seasoned board game players to the table for the video. What if my intent is to merely show board games, engage in board game culture. What part of the Polygon video said "Serious Game Review Time: DOOM". And hell, I'd even argue if it did, the new game player's take on it would be every bit as valid. Just because they aren't as dexterous on the twin sticks as people here doesn't make their views less valuable.

If anything we should be welcoming new blood into this space as it's incredibly healthy and helps to evaluate where we are and where we're headed.

Edit: also,

.

i agree with you, but i think the fact this is coming from a "professional" medium and not, say, a personal twitch channel...it murks things a bit.
 
Dude you're just being comically aloof now. There is nothing about Doom that is a large departure from the standard mechanics of the dozens of FPS that come out every year.

So I can play Doom like I do CoD or vice versa and they'll play exactly the same?
 
Dude you're just being comically aloof now. There is nothing about Doom that is a large departure from the standard mechanics of the dozens of FPS that come out every year.
I would say you are wrong here. Doom has established a very unique system and pacing to the genre that no other modern shooter really does.
 
I wouldn't want a blind person reviewing movies.

And I don't want a review from this guy who can't move both sticks at the same time.

I look forward to the inevitable edits of this amazing footage when Polygon gives Doom a low score.
 
Reminds me of that IGN guy at E3 the year Wonderful 101 was announced. He said the game was bad because he couldn't follow the on screen prompt to draw a line between the two train cars.
 
So I can play Doom like I do CoD or vice versa and they'll play exactly the same?
Exactly? No, but you're seriously stretching for an argument if you're trying to say that they don't have a lot of the same basic controls. Or at least ones so similar that making an adjustment wouldn't feel like playing the genre for the first time again.

This game doesn't reinvent the FPS wheel.
 
We're now at the point were Doom is a complicated game and the guy playing is too used to playing CoD! /facepalm

Keep on digging that hole.
 
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