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[Theonik]

The AMD Vega should be capable of it. Its a difference in philosophy. Sony wants a step up machine to extend the generation, Microsoft is starting next gen. That is the design difference.

Starting next-gen with a 25-50% performance lead over the Neo? I didn't see anyone call the Xbox One a last gen system.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Would anyone have been hyped for the Xbox Snoopy?

All codenames have got to sound cool and classy

Don't dis Snoopy..

 

[Ricky Ricardo]

Very interested to see if Crackdown 3 and Scalebound go on to be launch titles for this new console and the changes the games undergo between XBO and XBS.

 

[Maybesew]

The AMD Vega should be capable of it. Its a difference in philosophy. Sony wants a step up machine to extend the generation, Microsoft is starting next gen. That is the design difference.

Do they currently use polaris?

 

[DeepEnigma]

The AMD Vega should be capable of it. Its a difference in philosophy. Sony wants a step up machine to extend the generation, Microsoft is starting next gen. That is the design difference.

That is a pretty underwhelming 'next gen' bump, if compared to the 'step up' machine.

And that's awfully close to this - http://ranker.sisoftware.net/show_r...efdce4dde4d5e5c3b18cbc9aff9aa797b1c2ffc7&l=en

Details for Result ID 67DF:C7 (2304SP 36C 1.27GHz, 16kB L2, 8GB DDR3 7.6GHz 256-bit) (OpenCL)​

I wonder if the rumors of the performance target are freshly sourced or if they worked their way backwards from the P10 SiSoft leak.

Ohhhh, very good find. The plot thickens. Now I want soup.

 

[recklesscognition]

Is it weird that I want this but have no interest in the Neo? (I have a PS4)

 

[c0de]

More TF in this case could mean a larger GPU, larger GPUs cost more money to fab, though they might offset this with projecting improved yields in 2017 but Sony can just drop the price as a response. There is also other factors. MS's weaker APU for the Xbox One was significantly more expensive to produce thanks to MS's memory architecture. We don't know how all of this will pan out but we do know that pricing will be in Sony's favour unless they decide to upgrade the Neo.

Xbone was clearly the exception of the rule, also because of Kinect. The implications of MS seeing a need for 8 gb of ram early in the stage for xbone clearly hurt them and we all know that. And especially MS knows that.

 

[wachie]

The AMD Vega should be capable of it. Its a difference in philosophy. Sony wants a step up machine to extend the generation, Microsoft is starting next gen. That is the design difference.

Um, no.

Vega is HBM2. I highly doubt Microsoft going with not just a bigger GPU but an even costlier memory setup.

The rumored (so far) specs point to the same chip being used by both Microsoft and Sony - originally a 40CU GPU with 4 disabled for yield purposes, so 36 usable CUs. Sony seems to be clocking them ~900MHz where as Microsoft seems to be clocking them (probably to AMD's thermal ceiling) at ~1.3GHz. The difference there would suggest Sony staying in the same (or lower) power envelope than the current PS4 so the PS4 Neo could be as small or smaller than the PS4 where as the Scorpio would need a more elaborate cooling solution than the Xbox One. They should be able to keep the size consistent as the current Xbox One has plenty of spare room.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Um, no.

Vega is HBM2. I highly doubt Microsoft going with not just a bigger GPU but an even costlier memory setup.

The rumored (so far) specs point to the same chip being used by both Microsoft and Sony - originally a 40CU GPU with 4 disabled for yield purposes, so 36 usable CUs. Sony seems to be clocking them ~900MHz where as Microsoft seems to be clocking them (probably to AMD's thermal ceiling) at ~1.3GHz. The difference there would suggest Sony staying in the same (or lower) power envelope than the current PS4 so the PS4 Neo could be as small or smaller than the PS4 where as the Scorpio would need a more elaborate cooling solution than the Xbox One. They should be able to keep the size consistent as the current Xbox One has plenty of spare room.

This seems to make more sense.

 

[eso76]

Just wondering, is there a chance Scorpio runs Win10 versions of MS Xbox games ?
Would make sense I think ?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I'm sure this Snoopy chip isn't related to Xbox going by the below from the paper? Just a coincidence.

The SCORPIO architecture is incorporated in an 11 mm-by-
13 mm chip prototype, fabricated in IBM 45nm SOI technology,
comprising 36 Freescale e200 Power ArchitectureTMcores with
private L1 and L2 caches interfacing with the NoC via ARM
AMBA, along with two Cadence on-chip DDR2 controllers.
The chip prototype achieves a post synthesis operating frequency
of 1 GHz (833 MHz post-layout) with an estimated
power of 28.8 W (768 mW per tile), while the network consumes
only 10% of tile area and 19 % of tile power.

 

[Ushay]

If they want to hurt Sony they have to announce now. Nobody is saving money for a 6TF machine they don't know is coming when a 4TF machine is out. And they can afford it if they announce a cheaper SKU at the same time. They kill their core sales by announcing new hardware early but can enter the mass market with the lower spec. Sony has no slim planned, they have to be careful what to say about future products.

I feel the same, giving a year lead on another console has never proven a good strategy. Then again, MS can't afford to make any mistakes with the hardware setup this go around.

 

[DataStream]

"A 36-Core Research Chip" doesn't sound like a console chip.

It sounds like custom silicon for a CPU to be used in Azure where multi-threading is paramount. That being said, if they are using this in production already then I imagine economies of scale apply and a gimped version could be used in a console (avoiding some overhead of partnering for a CPU). They already push people towards multi-threading for game development so this could be an interesting development (though I'm unconvinced).

Could free up $ to be used on a more bleeding edge GPU.

 

[Clockwork]

SCORPIO has nothing to do with Scorpio (if Scorpio even exists as described by Polygon and/or their source).

People just getting excited and reading into things without even looking into what one thing (SCORPIO) is even about and trying to make some poor correlation between it and the recent news.

http://projects.csail.mit.edu/wiki/pub/LSPgroup/PublicationList/scorpio_isca2014.pdf

 

[JaggedSac]

I don't see the supposed link between the two sessions highlighted at all. One is about Xbox One, one completely different one is from a university research group.

http://people.csail.mit.edu/suvinay/web/pubs/2014.scorpio.isca.pdf

Bunch of MIT folks too. IBM chip at that.

EDIT: Damn beaten.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Is it weird that I want this but have no interest in the Neo? (I have a PS4)

Neo outed to quickly? Where's the fun in that?

 

[oldergamer]

No way MS or sony are moving away from X86 and retaining compatibility. It's not happening.

 

[JayWood2010]

If i have any requests for Scorpio, it would be to give me the option of installing games on my HDD like the original XBO reveal. not the always online thing, but where you can install the games through disc so it can be played digitally. So much better than swapping discs.

 

[Alx]

The real question would be "why didn't MS use a city name as code name, like they usually do ?".
Or is there a city named Scorpio somewhere in the world ? (I suppose there may be, but a quick search doesn't show it)

 

[oldergamer]

Um, no.

Vega is HBM2. I highly doubt Microsoft going with not just a bigger GPU but an even costlier memory setup.

The rumored (so far) specs point to the same chip being used by both Microsoft and Sony - originally a 40CU GPU with 4 disabled for yield purposes, so 36 usable CUs. Sony seems to be clocking them ~900MHz where as Microsoft seems to be clocking them (probably to AMD's thermal ceiling) at ~1.3GHz. The difference there would suggest Sony staying in the same (or lower) power envelope than the current PS4 so the PS4 Neo could be as small or smaller than the PS4 where as the Scorpio would need a more elaborate cooling solution than the Xbox One. They should be able to keep the size consistent as the current Xbox One has plenty of spare room.

What makes you think HBM is a costlier memory setup?

 

[SOR5]

Honestly, I believe that could be possible.

After Halo Wars 2 being made by Creative Assembly, I believe anything isn't off the table developer wise.

Yep they like their outsourcing

• Amped-Indie Built
• Blood Wake-Stormfront Studios
• Fuzion Frenzy-Blitz Games/Hudson Soft
• Halo Wars 2-Creative Assembly
• Blinx-Artoon
• D4 Dark Dreams Dont Die-Access Games
• Mechassault-Day 1 Studios (though in collaboration with FASA)
• Quantum Redshift-Curly Monster
• Midtown Madness 3-DICE
• Voodoo Vince-Beep
• Kingdom Under Fire-Phantagram
• Gears of War-Epic
• PGR-Bizarre Creations
• Lost Odyssey+Blue Dragon-Mistwalker+Feelplus
• Crimson Dragon-Grounding Inc.
• Crackdown-Realtime Worlds/Ruffian Entertainment/Reagant Games
• Scalebound-Platinum
• Recore-Armature Studios
• Ori and The Blind Forest-Moon Studio
• Killer Instinct-Iron Galaxy/Double Helix
• Quantum Break+Alan Wake-Remedy Entertainment

from the top of my head

 

[adamantypants]

The best part about this is that the PSNeo is outgunned before it was even announced. I'm loving this war of consoles

 

[DeepEnigma]

What makes you think HBM is a costlier memory setup?

At this point in time. Not mainstream nor fabs set up for it en mass like they are currently with DDR.

Just like Gluten Free Oats cost more than ones produced in the same facilities with equipment that processes wheat, nuts, eggs, and dairy.

Unless I am missing something in the fab process?

The best part about this is that the PSNeo is outgunned before it was even announced. I'm loving this war of consoles

Neo rumor outgunned before it was announced, by a rumor with less info before it was announced.

 

[wachie]

32 CUs @ 1.46 GHz
36 CUs @ 1.30 GHz
40 CUs @ 1.17 GHz
44 CUs @ 1.06 GHz
56 CUs @ 837 MHz
60 CUs @ 732 MHz

For reference R9 Nano is 60CUs @ 1GHz with a TDP of 175W. And that is on 28nm.

What makes you think HBM is a costlier memory setup?

Additional requirement of interposer, for which yield is again an issue.

 

[MilkyJoe]

The best part about this is that the PSNeo is outgunned before it was even announced. I'm loving this war of consoles

Will they talk about how many billion transistors it has?

 

[SOR5]

Don't dis Snoopy..

Haha no shots fired, but you know Scorpio sounds alot more intriguing than words like Snoopy or Twonk or Honeybuns

 

[AmuroChan]

Yep they like their outsourcing

• Amped-Indie Built
• Blood Wake-Stormfront Studios
• Fuzion Frenzy-Blitz Games/Hudson Soft
• Halo Wars 2-Creative Assembly
• Blinx-Artoon
• D4 Dark Dreams Dont Die-Access Games
• Mechassault-Day 1 Studios (though in collaboration with FASA)
• Quantum Redshift-Curly Monster
• Midtown Madness 3-DICE
• Voodoo Vince-Beep
• Kingdom Under Fire-Phantagram
• Gears of War-Epic
• PGR-Bizarre Creations
• Lost Odyssey+Blue Dragon-Mistwalker+Feelplus
• Crimson Dragon-Grounding Inc.
• Crackdown-Realtime Worlds/Ruffian Entertainment/Reagant Games
• Scalebound-Platinum
• Recore-Armature Studios
• Ori and The Blind Forest-Moon Studio
• Killer Instinct-Iron Galaxy/Double Helix
• Quantum Break+Alan Wake-Remedy Entertainment

from the top of my head

Gears wasn't outsourced. Epic owned the IP at the time. Microsoft just bought the exclusivity.

Do we know for a fact MS owns the Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon IPs? There's been more Blue Dragon games on Nintendo platforms and none of them list Microsoft in the credits as far as I know.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

The best part about this is that the PSNeo is outgunned before it was even announced. I'm loving this war of consoles

Right now we know nothing about either and I'm really wondering about all the detailed info about the Neo. Just how legit is it really? Have some people been played/used?

That is how bad this has got for me.

 

[Bizzquik]

I think it's going to come out this Fall. Not 2017.

Why do you think so? Just wondering.

I like new things and would gladly buy it this year, but from what we read yesterday, major publishers were just briefed on Microsoft's plans last week.

All major stakeholders in the PlayStation brand (publishers, retailers, etc) were briefed on the Neo long before this, right? (March 2016? April 2016?)

 

[Clockwork]

The best part about this is that the PSNeo is outgunned before it was even announced. I'm loving this war of consoles

So let me get this right...one unannounced product is being "outgunned" by another unannounced product...and you are just going to take it all at face value?

I mean at this point does it even make sense to call it like that? It is all pure speculation at this point. Console wars are stupid.

 

[c0de]

And that's awfully close to this - http://ranker.sisoftware.net/show_r...efdce4dde4d5e5c3b18cbc9aff9aa797b1c2ffc7&l=en

Details for Result ID 67DF:C7 (2304SP 36C 1.27GHz, 16kB L2, 8GB DDR3 7.6GHz 256-bit) (OpenCL)​

I wonder if the rumors of the performance target are freshly sourced or if they worked their way backwards from the P10 SiSoft leak.

OpenCL sounds interesting but I lost contact to the actual state of it right now. I always thought this would and should what all should be targeting, no matter if CPU or gpu.

 

[SOR5]

Gears wasn't outsourced. Epic owned the IP at the time. Microsoft just bought the exclusivity.

Do we know for a fact MS owns the Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon IPs? There's been more Blue Dragon games on Nintendo platforms and neither list Microsoft in the credits as far as I know.

Oh crap, sorry yeah I forgot Gears was only recently

MS definitely owns Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon though, they just liked the DS for some reason (Age of Empires, Viva Pinata, Blue Dragon, even Halo DS was going to turn up)

 

[Theonik]

Xbone was clearly the exception of the rule, also because of Kinect. The implications of MS seeing a need for 8 gb of ram early in the stage for xbone clearly hurt them and we all know that. And especially MS knows that.

Oh I thought you were being sarcastic. Yes that is indeed the case. Though price does go down over time as yields improve. The Neo will be made on a 14nm process in all likelihood which while it is somewhat matured with many major chips being made in it now, still has a lot of room for improved yields and therefore lower cost per chip.

 

[AmuroChan]

The best part about this is that the PSNeo is outgunned before it was even announced. I'm loving this war of consoles

Yep, and that's by necessity on Microsoft part if they want to support Oculus natively. Oculus requires more power than PSVR.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Haha no shots fired, but you know Scorpio sounds alot more intriguing than words like Snoopy or Twonk or Honeybuns

Yeah but snoopy is underplaying... Snoopy is cool without trying..

 

[c0de]

Oh I thought you were being sarcastic. Yes that is indeed the case. Though price does go down over time as yields improve. The Neo will be made on a 14nm process in all likelihood which while it is somewhat matured with many major chips being made in it now, still has a lot of room for improved yields and therefore lower cost per chip.

Oh I was as thelastword put a wrong picture on it, in my opinion, by giving numbers that put a direct relation between performance and price. While there is a relation (of course), it's not that simple, especially when one hardware release is one year later.

 

[rokkerkory]

2014? That kind of lines up with the Eurogamer DDR4 reports back in 2014. Shows this has been something in mind for a while at MS.

Wow that's pretty awesome. If you think about it, these things take years to plan and deliver and cannot be pulled out of the ass in short amount of time.

 

[The_Almighty_Swan]

MS is going to take a stranglehold on the console market with this strategy. No way Sony would be able to keep up.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

36 CUs would mean it's clocked at ~1.3GHz to reach the 6TF target.

So 1.04Ghz for 5TF?

That might be more realistic?

 

[Beefy]

MS is going to take a stranglehold on the console market with this strategy. No way Sony would be able to keep up.

Worldwide or just US?

 

[Mihalis0013]

Sigh.

Guess I'll be buying this and the Neo.

Fuck sake...

+1

 

[kinoki]

It'll be interesting to see this play out. How much tech are Microsoft going to put in this box? Are they going to sell it at a loss? How much are they willing to lose in the battle for the fabled living room? Is it fully backwards compatible? Will all games released be playable on both but with different settings? Are they going to focus exclusively on the NA market or are they aiming for global saturation? Do they have games outside sequels for the 4 IP pillars? Will it be a PC-console-hybrid?

It'll be interesting.

 

[gofreak]

The AMD Vega should be capable of it. Its a difference in philosophy. Sony wants a step up machine to extend the generation, Microsoft is starting next gen. That is the design difference.

These are not 'full next-gen' calibre.

Depending on which end of 5-6Tflops Scorpio lands, its GPU may only be 25% more powerful than Neo. Or at the other end, <50%. That's not the difference of an increment vs a generational leap.

In terms of the leap over the PS4, both are only in the 2-3x range. Very mid-gen incremental at either end of that range IMO. Per the rumours, neither machine is triggering a new software gen...these are both premium extensions to the PS4 and XboxOne platforms.

 

[The_Almighty_Swan]

Worldwide or just US?

North America, UK possibly worldwide due to the upgraded specs. It trumps the Neo especially with the PC support. You can kinda see them merging PC and console gamers in one giant community with this strategy. Sony can't compete with that in the long run.

 

[leeh]

These are not 'full next-gen' calibre.

Depending on which end of 5-6Tflops Scorpio lands, its GPU may only be 25% more powerful than Neo. Or at the other end, <50%. That's not the difference of an increment vs a generational leap.

In terms of the leap over the PS4, both are only in the 2-3x range. Very mid-gen incremental at either end of that range IMO. Per the rumours, neither machine is triggering a new software gen...these are both premium extensions to the PS4 and XboxOne platforms.

Considering that the XB1 has only like what, 4x the theoretical power of the 360, then I'd say it aligns with this generational bump.

 

[DeepEnigma]

North America, UK possibly worldwide due to the upgraded specs. It trumps the Neo especially with the PC support. You can kinda see them merging PC and console gamers in one giant community with this strategy. Sony can't compete with that in the long run.

Some mighty bold statements right here, lol.

 

[Kaako]

North America, UK possibly worldwide due to the upgraded specs. It trumps the Neo especially with the PC support. You can kinda see them merging PC and console gamers in one giant community with this strategy. Sony can't compete with that in the long run.

That's with the assumption that MS doesn't fuck this up and burn it to the ground. And that is a pretty damn big assumption.

Reality will not be so kind as you might hope/want to believe. Mark my words.

 

[gofreak]

Considering that the XB1 has only like what, 4x the theoretical power of the 360, then I'd say it aligns with this generational bump.

Excluding major architectural changes, major memory enhancements (16x capacity), and excluding the fact that at '4x the GPU flops' of 360, XB1 was a lagging outlier wrt full generational transitions. It's not exactly representative of a typical leap. If 4x is the new low bar for a generational transition, Scorpio is not even that vs the current gen leader.

 

[The_Almighty_Swan]

Some mighty bold statements right here, lol.

If they make it that much more powerful then the Neo and they put their library on PC as well it can very well work. Heck they just got most of the world to jump onto Windows 10. There's a big plan in play here and if played right they can flat out take over the console market. It's not bold but more so foreseeing the possibilities with such an aggressive approach.

 

[DeepEnigma]

If they make it that much more powerful then the Neo and they put their library on PC as well it can very well work. Heck they just got most of the world to jump onto Windows 10. There's a big plan in play here and if played right they can flat out take over the console market. It's not bold but more so foreseeing the possibilities with such an aggressive approach.

So they are going to release this for 'free' then?