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[MilkyJoe]

yea cerny probably read about this rumor on the interwebz and is now en route to the sony hq before its too late

What ever MS brings to the table it's too late for Sony to change specs (not that there's any real reason to) if they are planning on an October release.

is it?

At least Scorpio seems to be a long time away. A 18 month wait seems a lot to me. So many things can happen during that time. One of them is that PS4 neo could have enough time to be 'reengineered to meet specs with that Xbox. Sony sure isn't in a hurry right now.

I'm pretty sure manufacturing contracts would be in place by now for an October release. i'd say it was set in stone

 

[Sarobi]

I guess my point here is not so much they have to cater to me, per say, but that playing all these games on my PC means I no longer need to buy their hardware, ever again, I don't have to pay for xblive ever again, and all the third party games will be played on a system that has nothing to do with Xbox.

And that's how it makes things simple. By knocking down the wall that separates their software, they can now allow people to pick and choose how they'll play their games. Xbox as a traditional console is over (if it's true that all first party games are going to PC), and it now becomes a steambox-esque machine, where it plays games, games that also happen to be made by first party studios. This business approach may come off as a "last ditch effort" as you said, but it's nothing like that at all. They're just simplifying it,

 

[anothertech]

So do you really think Scorpio is going to eat all the current PS4 advantage? ...

No opposite actually. Neo releasing a year earlier and less expensive winning the major portion of the market share, while Scorpio, while a bit more powerful also comes at a heftier price, a year later, having a much harder time getting much of that market share.

The 2:1 global user base market share of the PS4 along with the year head start will be a huge advantage for Sony IMO.

Will be a similar situation to the 360/PS3 days I feel, but Sony and MS trade places.

 

[iJudged]

is it?

At least Scorpio seems to be a long time away. A 18 month wait seems a lot to me. So many things can happen during that time. One of them is that PS4 neo could have enough time to be 'reengineered to meet specs with that Xbox. Sony sure isn't in a hurry right now.

I guess I just didn't expect next xbox and PS to be in the talks until 2020

 

[Markoman]

If the xbone had been equal in power to the ps4, and every bad decision not taken, does everyone think that this gen would have played out in exactly the same??

Im not saying that microsoft could have dethroned sony, but I think that they could have gone toe to toe so to speak.

A 100 more expensive, weaker console coupled with all the shit was suicide... And the results speak for themselves. But a new console that rights all the wrongs will definitely give them a fighting chance .

No, you're right. It would've been closer. But going by this thread, people seem to forget what it means to be the mind+market-share leader world-wide. Do I have to remind you that Sony was the first "modern" console company and they have always been in the lead since they entered the game. I also see them as the secret leader of the last gen hardcore audience. Mind-share is worth more than anything. They have sold app. 350-400m Playstations over the years, meaning there a lot of people, assuming that they have never been dissapointed, experienced PSs and stayed with Sony for whatever reasons.

And let's be honest, Sony has always delivered in the key-aspects of console-gaming namely games.
Last gen, MS was the leader when it comes to console online-gaming, but the idea of online-gaming is not that revolutionary when you consider that many were doing online-gaming on PC years before. And no matter how much people bring up that same old argument- Online gaming on PS4 works absolutely fine.
I've had a short flirt with MS last gen, but the fucking piece of donkey-shit broke 3 times!!! and interesting exclusive games beyond 2010 were not existent. I felt ashamed after every E3, my mouth was salty...
The uninformed causal gamer will see boxes on shelves and prices.
The gaming enthusiast will see all the hype surrounding games like TLOU and Uncharted and power. MS has a lot of work to do and if they really want to go head-to-head with Sony again, they'll have to eat a huuuge chunk of losses.
A 400$ Scorpio and I'll forget about everything I've said before and maybe I'll bite, but no way in hell am I going to spend 500-600$ on that thing, knowing that a PS5 might come out in 2018/2019 + being able to play MS games on my PC.

Edit: Oooh, ...and before anyone comes to the conclusion that this is a safe victory, do I have to remind you that both Neo and Scorpio are going to compete with 200-250$ (maybe even lower) machines by the time both are on the market.
Then we'll finally see what matters most: priece or power.

 

[bidguy]

What ever MS brings to the table it's too late for Sony to change specs (not that there's any real reason to) if they are planning on an October release.

uhhh yea i wasnt actually being serious.

"reeingeneered to match scoprio" yea right they are totally gonna scrap all their plans and delay their launch (for a device created to make VR a smoother experience) over a rumor on the internet thats not even 100% confirmed and might not be for months.

 

[TheLegendary]

is it?

At least Scorpio seems to be a long time away. A 18 month wait seems a lot to me. So many things can happen during that time. One of them is that PS4 neo could have enough time to be 'reengineered to meet specs with that Xbox. Sony sure isn't in a hurry right now.

Impossible

 

[LukasTaves]

I'm curious how they will offer and accumulate an identity with Xbox as a service as grand and as unique of an identity that Xbox as a product with the Xbox 360 enjoyed (and PlayStation enjoys with their consoles).

So when they had a single device, a product, the Xbox 360 was the Xbox product, it was tangible product that could offer and build a unique identity that I don't think can be replicated with a service. It all stems from exclusivity which the product offered, but the service can't replicate to the same full effect.

For example the Xbox as a product with the Xbox 360 had games like Halo 3 and Gears of War and Forza which added to the identity. It was home to Call of Duty, it was the best place to play Call of Duty, it had Bioshock and other games, it offered unique features, Netflix party mode, 1vs100...etc that you could only find on that product. At E3 they could come out and say "look at all this cool shit, we got all this new cool shit, and the only place to play it, the only place to experience it is on Xbox 360." And if you loved those unique features and exclusives then by nature you started loving the product, the console, those exclusives added to it's identity.

Now the Xbox as a service moves away from that singular device, it takes the product out. The experiences aren't exclusive to a product any longer, you don't need a single device to experience those unique features. At E3 they can't say "We got all this new cool shit, look at all this stuff, you can only experience them on this one product", because now you get to experience that stuff everywhere (everywhere with Windows 10 at least). Now you can still enjoy Gears and Halo and other new exclusive Xbox IP and all new cool features that they come up with you can experience it on any device, this builds to the identity of the service. So like Netflix, if they provide a good experience and exclusive and unique features, they can build the service to be really good, to have it's own identity and stand out from the rest.

The question ultimately is how do they achieve that same level of uniqueness and identity, identity that grows as they add more exclusive features and experiences to it, and in the end can one feel the same towards that service as they did towards a tangible product? How do they keep that same essence and vibe during the E3 conference, the one where "if you want this cool experience that we just showed you, you're going to need to buy and Xbox 360, you cannot find it anywhere else except this product"?

Well, like you said, they need to make the service unique.

For instance, if they make all your games, from og xbox to xbone, and tons of pc only games as well available everywhere with a single purchase, and by everywhere I mean even the xbox stick Chromecast thingy, resorting to cloud streaming (included in the live sub) when the device is not up to the task of running natively it already becomes a very nice exclusive feature to the service.

Same with apps. Imagine if the somehow manage to strike a deal with Netflix to bring back party mode to the Netflix app that's exclusive to win10 devices and that integrates seamlessly to the xbox party system (which is already present on those devices).


If they really want to go all in there's many ways they can differentiate themselves and both them and developers/partners could rely on the massive user base to justify the investments.

And I think these features is exactly what they need if they want to have a shot at taking market share from steam. Like, you can create an xbox party and play a game on steam, but playing a store game you would get all the benefits like easy matchmaking even cross device. You can buy a game on steam, but if you buy it from the store it will be available on every win10 device you own, and with these new hardware you could play it even when you are not at home. You can also get an xbox and play all the pc games you would like, because they are being brought to console which will have keyboard and mouse support, and there will be a cheaper console as well so you can build a gaming machine everywhere you want in your house without having to build a gaming pc for it, so all your family can play at once, with a shared library everywhere.

Tons of stuff not yet announced there, but that I think it's totally within the realm of reality (I would say it's a matter of when not if) and that adds up to making their eco system more compelling than the competition.

 

[EventHorizon]

Gap now is .6 Teraflops. 1.8 would be a huge difference, of course devs would use the extra power, just like they do now. It's not about who sells most, otherwise last gen would've been Wii level graphics.

The difference between the Scorpio over the Neo would be about the same as the PS4 over the XB1. The faster console in both cases would be about 40% faster than the slower.

           Gen 8     Gen 8.5
           =====     =======
Sony        1.84        4.14
Microsoft   1.31        6.00

High - Low  0.53        1.86
High / Low  1.40        1.45

Another thing to keep in mind is that for many people the output in both cases would be at 1080p for quite awhile, which would cause a severe case of diminishing returns. VR is where the extra boost of the Scorpio would be most seen but its delayed release is going to complicate that actually being seen any time soon by most gamers.

Assuming MS adds VR support (which I think is likely) someone would have to buy both the Scorpio and MS's VR solution at the same time in fall 2017. Meanwhile it is far more likely that given Sony's head start, early adopters will have already bought either the Neo or PSVR by the time the Scorpio comes out. At that point it makes more sense for that gamer to just buy the piece they don't already have instead of going all out for a costly Scorpion + XBVR solution.

In addition it is also likely that the Scorpio will cost more than the Neo due to its high specs. At that higher price tag anyone interested in VR would probably just get a computer instead. VR renders many of the advantages of a console irelevent sense you'll likely be sitting in a chair with a controller in your hand in either case.

 

[tzare]

What ever MS brings to the table it's too late for Sony to change specs (not that there's any real reason to) if they are planning on an October release.



I'm pretty sure manufacturing contracts would be in place by now for an October release. i'd say it was set in stone

If it is october release.....
Everything is rumours now. If true, sony will have a year lead with two more powerful skus, with 40+ million install base, their own exclusives, PSVR and all multis running better on their HW. Sure , some may wait for that extra 1-2 TF one year.... then sony can also drop the price of Neo to keep appeal.
If they do not release in October they still have the momentum ps4 is having over XBO, plus PSVR. and rethink their strategy and update specs if they think it is relevant.


I think communication is key, and MS need to be more specific(not just raw power, but their vision for the brand, pricing....) when they announce(considering they announce it this e3) this powerful box that will be released more one year later.
If Scorpio was to be released this october, it would make sense for me: choose more powerful and probably more expensive Xbox or PS4Neo, pwerful, not as much, but cheaper.

But again, if Sorpio is targeted towards 2017 fall... man that is a long time. Even more than when XBO and PS4 were announced and released (less than a year)

Impossible

what is impossible?
I haven't followed much PS4 neo news, but i read sony had at least two configs into consideration , the rumoured one, 4,1 TF at 399 and a more powerful one (better cpu if not mistaken) at a higher price.

If they plan to release in october then they cannot do anything, not enough time. But then the lead would be 1 year. Than can easily mean 10 million consoles already in hands of consumers wneh scorpio is released

 

[Bits N Pieces]

yea cerny probably read about this rumor on the interwebz and is now en route to the sony hq before its too late

Thats if he can get out of the bath, lol.

 

[-hadouken]

knowing that a PS5 might come out in 2018/2019

Would bet my house that Sony won't be offering up a PS5 two years after Neo drops.

 

[Zedox]

I still find it interesting that people hold onto those sales numbers of systems. The reason why MS now focuses on MAU is because 1. They aren't winning any hardware sales battles. 2. When you are losing, you have to change the game in order to get back in it. MS making PCs effectively Xbox 1st party machines, and having the Windows Store on Xboxes give them a huge advantage over Sony in my opinion. Why? Because Xbox will never go 1 on 1 with Sony. The days of Xbox vs. Playstation going head to head is truly no longer a "thing". It's basically customers using Xbox vs. customers using PlayStation. The reach that MS has is way larger than the one that Sony has currently. Sony could obviously put out a PC store for their games, but that would necessitate users to go out and get that, whereas MS already includes Xbox on Windows (and yes, having it there by default does matter).

But anyways, the Scorpio is just an upgrade to the Xbox One system. If it's 6 TFLOPS or 5 TFLOPS won't matter in the bigger picture of things. If it can perform better or the same as PS4K, that matters. If it can run Oculus, that matters. If it can do 4K, that matters. If it can not be a huge ass box, that matters. Will it have a better or the same controller as the Slim, that matters. It's just a means to an end.

What really matters is the ecosystem and keeping users in that ecosystem. Connecting and playing with friends matter. 3rd party games matter. Services outside of only gaming matter (Netflix, PlayStation Vue, Spotify, etc...) Other hardware (PlayStation TV, PS Vita, "Xbox TV stick") matter. Gamerscore and Trophies matter. Backwards compatibility matter. Deals on games/apps matter.

But the reach of the ecosystem really is important and that's where Sony needs to step up. There's an Xbox app on every mobile platform, and every PC, and partly on the web. There are Xbox Live enabled games on mobile stores like the App Store and Google Play (albeit not a lot). All it really takes MS to do is push for games to be on those stores to get those users into their ecosystem. Right now, all PlayStation has is the PS4 (and to a smaller degree the Vita) going for them. They need to get that ecosystem out there wherever the Xbox is.

It will eventually become a battle of the services. That's how I see it. Playstation is in a good place because they have so many users on PS4 and it will be easier for them to create services around playstation for those users to keep them there (like PSVR). What Sony can't afford to do is keep everything so focused on the hardware (granted that is their strong suit) of the console and everything coming from the console...because if they do, they could get blindsided by something else.

Anyways long rant. Xbox Scorpio probably won't be announced until gamescom. I think MS will announce the Slim and TV Stick during E3 and let Sony have E3 to shine their new system. I think it makes sense. I do think they'll talk up new systems coming but they won't go into any detail that Sony will be, and games that Sony will show off and how PSVR connects to it.

 

[martino]

I still find it interesting that people hold onto those sales numbers of systems. The reason why MS now focuses on MAU is because 1. They aren't winning any hardware sales battles. 2. When you are losing, you have to change the game in order to get back in it. MS making PCs effectively Xbox 1st party machines, and having the Windows Store on Xboxes give them a huge advantage over Sony in my opinion. Why? Because Xbox will never go 1 on 1 with Sony. The days of Xbox vs. Playstation going head to head is truly no longer a "thing". It's basically customers using Xbox vs. customers using PlayStation. The reach that MS has is way larger than the one that Sony has currently. Sony could obviously put out a PC store for their games, but that would necessitate users to go out and get that, whereas MS already includes Xbox on Windows (and yes, having it there by default does matter).

But anyways, the Scorpio is just an upgrade to the Xbox One system. If it's 6 TFLOPS or 5 TFLOPS won't matter in the bigger picture of things. If it can perform better or the same as PS4K, that matters. If it can run Oculus, that matters. If it can do 4K, that matters. If it can not be a huge ass box, that matters. Will it have a better or the same controller as the Slim, that matters. It's just a means to an end.

What really matters is the ecosystem and keeping users in that ecosystem. Connecting and playing with friends matter. 3rd party games matter. Services outside of only gaming matter (Netflix, PlayStation Vue, Spotify, etc...) Other hardware (PlayStation TV, PS Vita, "Xbox TV stick") matter. Gamerscore and Trophies matter. Backwards compatibility matter. Deals on games/apps matter.

But the reach of the ecosystem really is important and that's where Sony needs to step up. There's an Xbox app on every mobile platform, and every PC, and partly on the web. There are Xbox Live enabled games on mobile stores like the App Store and Google Play (albeit not a lot). All it really takes MS to do is push for games to be on those stores to get those users into their ecosystem. Right now, all PlayStation has is the PS4 (and to a smaller degree the Vita) going for them. They need to get that ecosystem out there wherever the Xbox is.

It will eventually become a battle of the services. That's how I see it. Playstation is in a good place because they have so many users on PS4 and it will be easier for them to create services around playstation for those users to keep them there (like PSVR). What Sony can't afford to do is keep everything so focused on the hardware (granted that is their strong suit) of the console and everything coming from the console...because if they do, they could get blindsided by something else.

Anyways long rant. Xbox Scorpio probably won't be announced until gamescom. I think MS will announce the Slim and TV Stick during E3 and let Sony have E3 to shine their new system. I think it makes sense. I do think they'll talk up new systems coming but they won't go into any detail that Sony will be, and games that Sony will show off and how PSVR connects to it.

Not only service but also content. Exclusive content will still (i'm tempted to say more) matter and sony situation and what it can deliver is an area where they have the edge (for now)

 

[Markoman]

Would bet my house that Sony won't be offering up a PS5 two years after Neo drops.

If it turns out that power really DOES matter for the masses and Scorpio starts eating Sony's lunch, I'll bet your house that they will.

 

[get2sammyb]

But the reach of the ecosystem really is important and that's where Sony needs to step up. There's an Xbox app on every mobile platform, and every PC, and partly on the web. There are Xbox Live enabled games on mobile stores like the App Store and Google Play (albeit not a lot). All it really takes MS to do is push for games to be on those stores to get those users into their ecosystem. Right now, all PlayStation has is the PS4 (and to a smaller degree the Vita) going for them. They need to get that ecosystem out there wherever the Xbox is.

No they don't. I appreciate what you're trying to say, but Sony and Microsoft have different corporate aims and objectives. Sony doesn't have a race in the operating system business, for example, so why do they need to put PlayStation on PC?

If people continue subscribing to PlayStation Plus and buying software for PS4, then I doubt Sony cares if Microsoft adds a million "MAUs" by selling some Surface tablets or whatever. It's like an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[TheLegendary]

Im not sure MS sees marketshare the way some people here do.
I think the way that they look at it, they have an advantage of about 200 million. Xbox is a Windows 10 service at this point, not sure if there should be any confusion there. This tiered or more iterative approach to console hardware releases is very natural when you look at it that way. Sony really isn't in position to leverage that marketshare the way MS is.

 

[gaming_noob]

If it turns out that power really DOES matter for the masses and Scorpio starts eating Sony's lunch, I'll bet your house that they will.

Meh. Will wait for another Xbeast 2 years after PS5

 

[Outrun]

No opposite actually. Neo releasing a year earlier and less expensive winning the major portion of the market share, while Scorpio, while a bit more powerful also comes at a heftier price, a year later, having a much harder time getting much of that market share.

The 2:1 global user base market share of the PS4 along with the year head start will be a huge advantage for Sony IMO.

Will be a similar situation to the 360/PS3 days I feel, but Sony and MS trade places.

You know the pricing of Scorpio?

 

[wapplew]

Eco system all that jazz is great on paper, but how are they going to get third party put software into their storefront when almost every big guys got thier own store?
Also, how this Eco system advantage transfer into different device with different input method? iOS/Andriod are huge ecosystem, but they are nothing if they leave touch base device.
Just like MS fail to use Windows to win phones war. 200m MAU on PC won't traslate to phones/console and vise versa or PS4 can't save vita with all the cross play/buy thing.

 

[tzare]

You know the pricing of Scorpio?

More powerful specs are usually tied to more expensive components and higher price. That said a year later may mean that the price can be better, but also PS4 Neo costs may go down and have a price cut too.

 

[MilkyJoe]

uhhh yea i wasnt actually being serious.

"reeingeneered to match scoprio" yea right they are totally gonna scrap all their plans and delay their launch (for a device created to make VR a smoother experience) over a rumor on the internet thats not even 100% confirmed and might not be for months.

Ahhh... My sarcasm detector is a little off...

 

[CrispyBoar]

I see we've gone beyond speculation to forecasting next 5 years of the industry based on nothing but unconfirmed speculation?

I think discussion needs to dial it back a notch to recognize that this is speculation on a "target" specification with no confirmation of Sony specification either other than some vague "targets".

At this point it's as likely Sony surprise MS with a late spec jump as MS leapfrog Sony. In other words it could go either way very easily so its redundant to read to much into how its going to play out.

I have to say though: it's pretty ironic to see the old MS can buy victory arguments coming out as MS write off their much bigger "buying" of mobile phone industry as a dismal failure. You can't buy victory in consumer markets. Not easily and not often. Commercial sure. MS are used to that. But consumer market can rarely be bought in that fashion. Please drop this argument. Also the war chest. The war chest is spent appropriate to the industry (see previous point on mobile phones). It's very unlikely MS is going to dump 5 billion into game consoles to sell a powerful console at a huge loss for relatively minimal ROI in comparison to the cost.

MS will make sensible moves I'm sure and invest but we're very unlikely to see anything crazy.

HINT: time for thisisneogaf.gif.

Thank you; This is exactly what we've been saying all this time.

 

[Zedox]

No they don't. I appreciate what you're trying to say, but Sony and Microsoft have different corporate aims and objectives. Sony doesn't have a race in the operating system business, for example, so why do they need to put PlayStation on PC?

If people continue subscribing to PlayStation Plus and buying software for PS4, then I doubt Sony cares if Microsoft adds a million "MAUs" by selling some Surface tablets or whatever. It's like an apples to oranges comparison.

That's the type of thought process that got MS behind on the mobile industry. Sony doesn't need a business in OS'...but they do need to sell to more customers than just customers of PS4. Things change, and it's better to be ready for it than to not. Why do you think they are getting into PSVR, PSVue , PSTV? They know that it's more than just the PS4. It would be naïve to think that the PS4 wave will ride them into the sunset.

Sony absolutely cares if Microsoft adds more people to their Xbox ecosystem. They would be dumb to think otherwise. The more people are into an ecosystem, the less likely they are going to leave it and enter another. It's no different than people using an iPhone, iPad, and Mac. Those things work together nicely. While this is all about gaming, it's still more about reaching gaming in more avenues than the traditional console.

 

[oldergamer]

The difference between the Scorpio over the Neo would be about the same as the PS4 over the XB1. The faster console in both cases would be about 40% faster than the slower.

           Gen 8     Gen 8.5
           =====     =======
Sony        1.84        4.14
Microsoft   1.31        6.00

High - Low  0.53        1.86
High / Low  1.40        1.45

Another thing to keep in mind is that for many people the output in both cases would be at 1080p for quite awhile, which would cause a severe case of diminishing returns. VR is where the extra boost of the Scorpio would be most seen but its delayed release is going to complicate that actually being seen any time soon by most gamers.

Assuming MS adds VR support (which I think is likely) someone would have to buy both the Scorpio and MS's VR solution at the same time in fall 2017. Meanwhile it is far more likely that given Sony's head start, early adopters will have already bought either the Neo or PSVR by the time the Scorpio comes out. At that point it makes more sense for that gamer to just buy the piece they don't already have instead of going all out for a costly Scorpion + XBVR solution.

In addition it is also likely that the Scorpio will cost more than the Neo due to its high specs. At that higher price tag anyone interested in VR would probably just get a computer instead. VR renders many of the advantages of a console irelevent sense you'll likely be sitting in a chair with a controller in your hand in either case.

You don't know this for certain. "Faster" is a relative term. If scorpio has two or three times the memory bandwidth compared to PS4k, The hardware will have less bottlenecks and could potentially do more. At the moment it seems any bandwidth change on PS4K is due to a slightly increased clock rate.

TFLOPS is peak performance with no bottlenecks, which isn't anywhere close to real world performance. People need to consider what real world performance would be on these new systems. For instance on PS4 running at 4k would dramatically increase memory bandwidth usage.

btw doesn't the name scorpio suggest a zodiac time frame? October 23rd - Nov 21st? perhaps the time frame it will release was factored into the code name.

 

[LukasTaves]

I highly doubt those variables will change any thing, and it's best to be realistic about things. This machine most likely will not launch under $399 and whatever ecosystem bait they have, they are planning on delivering the Xbox experience to the PC. Essentially, the Scorpio feels like a Windows 10 PC that doesn't let you access Steam, and that ultimately is very unattractive :/. IMO atleast.

I get the best of BOTH worlds on PC. I get the Xbox exclusives AND I get the cheap as nails PC versions of games thanks to Steam and it's infinitely more flexible, open, and modifiable system. If Sony were to start launching games like Uncharted 4 on PC, you'll see me saying Sayonara Neo as well.

The more I think about this, the more I think Scorpio just isn't for me. I have a gaming PC, and a 280X at the moment, but the idea that Microsoft is aiming for 6 TF in 2017, just makes me think that I'll end up buying a new Nvidia card whenever it launches and be a PC-Xbox customer and predominantly use Steam for the massive sales.

I don't have the slightest idea how you market this thing. In reality, I think this is a sign that Microsoft doesn't care about Xbox sales and this is more about creating standards than it is trying to get boxes in homes.

That's actually very easy to market and sell. Assuming they do it right obviously (almost all games offering cross buy/play for instance).

So now you have a Ps4 and a PC instead of a xbone. Why would you purchase a multiplat game for Ps4 even if you could play it better on the Neo and get locked on whatever system Sony makes for you, when you have the option to build your own, at your pace and end up with a more powerful box that will play this game better?

And since you already own a console I would assume you value the plug and play aspects of it, so you would be more willing to bough a game from the store, that not only immediately gives you a plug and play platform to play your games, but according to the rumors they are also offering a console like interface that actually works across all games. That at least for me, but I assume many feel the same, would drive sales away from steam, which is currently only available on Pcs and the big picture mode is still not up to the task.

Take also into consideration what Ms is doing in the development space. They are having the same low level api on console and pc, the same development environment and the same debugging tools. All that to make developing for one getting you the other version as close to free as possible. That'll mean more games that would skip xbone could be launched. For example, SF V, Guitlty Gear, FF VII Remake, Shenmue 3, Tales... All games coming to PC and PS4 but not xbox. If Ms gets developers aboard there's more games coming to xbox, to the point one might feel that ps4 exclusives alone are not enough to get the console.

Either way, you are purchasing from the Ms store, locking into their ecosystem, and driving away from competing platforms because the unified approach has incentives for you to do so on both console and pc space.

 

[Outrun]

More powerful specs are usually tied to more expensive components and higher price. That said a year later may mean that the price can be better, but also PS4 Neo costs may go down and have a price cut too.

Or the system could be subsidized through subscription or monthly fees...

At this point, we are all delving into conjecture, some of which (not you), is inspired by console affiliation.

E3 and beyond will yield a better understanding.

 

[MilkyJoe]

You don't know this for certain. "Faster" is a relative term. If scorpio has two or three times the memory bandwidth compared to PS4k, The hardware will have less bottlenecks and could potentially do more. At the moment it seems any bandwidth change on PS4K is due to a slightly increased clock rate.

TFLOPS is peak performance with no bottlenecks, which isn't anywhere close to real world performance. People need to consider what real world performance would be on these new systems. For instance on PS4 running at 4k would dramatically increase memory bandwidth usage.

btw doesn't the name scorpio suggest a zodiac time frame? October 23rd - Nov 21st? perhaps the time frame it will release was factored into the code name.

 

[oldergamer]

I'm still not thinking this year, but the name scorpio had me curious. good picture pick btw

 

[get2sammyb]

That's the type of thought process that got MS behind on the mobile industry. Sony doesn't need a business in OS'...but they do need to sell to more customers than just customers of PS4. Things change, and it's better to be ready for it than to not. Why do you think they are getting into PSVR, PSVue , PSTV? They know that it's more than just the PS4. It would be naïve to think that the PS4 wave will ride them into the sunset.

Sony absolutely cares if Microsoft adds more people to their Xbox ecosystem. They would be dumb to think otherwise. The more people are into an ecosystem, the less likely they are going to leave it and enter another. It's no different than people using an iPhone, iPad, and Mac. Those things work together nicely. While this is all about gaming, it's still more about reaching gaming in more avenues than the traditional console.

Again, I see what you're saying, but I really think there are different goals and objectives at play here. You're comparing Microsoft's wider business objectives directly with Sony's PlayStation division.

For example, I really don't think Andrew House and co will be fretting if Microsoft adds a "MAU" because someone logs into their Outlook account via the Windows 10 app. It's an apple to oranges scenario.

Where Sony will care is if people start choosing to sub to Xbox Live over PlayStation Plus. That's not happening at the moment, though, is it? I fully agree with you that Sony needs to be nimble and thinking to the future, and all of the services that you listed are evidence of them doing exactly that.

 

[Markoman]

Meh. Will wait for another Xbeast 2 years after PS5

Double-meh. And I'll go into stasis and come back when PS10 is released ;P

I still find it interesting that people hold onto those sales numbers of systems. The reason why MS now focuses on MAU is because 1. They aren't winning any hardware sales battles. 2. When you are losing, you have to change the game in order to get back in it. MS making PCs effectively Xbox 1st party machines, and having the Windows Store on Xboxes give them a huge advantage over Sony in my opinion. Why? Because Xbox will never go 1 on 1 with Sony. The days of Xbox vs. Playstation going head to head is truly no longer a "thing". It's basically customers using Xbox vs. customers using PlayStation. The reach that MS has is way larger than the one that Sony has currently. Sony could obviously put out a PC store for their games, but that would necessitate users to go out and get that, whereas MS already includes Xbox on Windows (and yes, having it there by default does matter).

But anyways, the Scorpio is just an upgrade to the Xbox One system. If it's 6 TFLOPS or 5 TFLOPS won't matter in the bigger picture of things. If it can perform better or the same as PS4K, that matters. If it can run Oculus, that matters. If it can do 4K, that matters. If it can not be a huge ass box, that matters. Will it have a better or the same controller as the Slim, that matters. It's just a means to an end.

What really matters is the ecosystem and keeping users in that ecosystem. Connecting and playing with friends matter. 3rd party games matter. Services outside of only gaming matter (Netflix, PlayStation Vue, Spotify, etc...) Other hardware (PlayStation TV, PS Vita, "Xbox TV stick") matter. Gamerscore and Trophies matter. Backwards compatibility matter. Deals on games/apps matter.

But the reach of the ecosystem really is important and that's where Sony needs to step up. There's an Xbox app on every mobile platform, and every PC, and partly on the web. There are Xbox Live enabled games on mobile stores like the App Store and Google Play (albeit not a lot). All it really takes MS to do is push for games to be on those stores to get those users into their ecosystem. Right now, all PlayStation has is the PS4 (and to a smaller degree the Vita) going for them. They need to get that ecosystem out there wherever the Xbox is.

It will eventually become a battle of the services. That's how I see it. Playstation is in a good place because they have so many users on PS4 and it will be easier for them to create services around playstation for those users to keep them there (like PSVR). What Sony can't afford to do is keep everything so focused on the hardware (granted that is their strong suit) of the console and everything coming from the console...because if they do, they could get blindsided by something else.

Anyways long rant. Xbox Scorpio probably won't be announced until gamescom. I think MS will announce the Slim and TV Stick during E3 and let Sony have E3 to shine their new system. I think it makes sense. I do think they'll talk up new systems coming but they won't go into any detail that Sony will be, and games that Sony will show off and how PSVR connects to it.

Z. bruh, I share some of your opinions (MS is well advised to do what they're doing - shifting strategy focus) but I don't share your optimism.

1. MS has strong competition on PC with all kinds of services: Steam, Google, Netflix
2. I feel that they have lost the sense for reality when it comes to the importance of their OS.
Let me explain: 1 billion windows licences means absolutely nothing for the general consumer market when the majority is used on office PCs/ smaller business PCs. I have to wonder if MS really has a clear vision of what their target audience actually is. The PC has gone the way of the CD-player, it has silently disappeared from most house-holds. Tablets and mobiles have taken over. I often hear you talking about MS's ecosytem and once again, what ecosystem???
I understand that the majority of people are using their phones all day long and when they're coming home, they use a device with a bigger screen to continue or to do different things. That's the reality.
Being able to play the same games/apps on a dedicated box plus on a PC at home is
a much weaker concept/idea. MS after all those years has to become an innovator again rather than playing the mee-too game if they want to go anywhere with this.
But I agree, the tinfoil-hat theory someone brought up here, makes absolutely sense in context: MS has to destroy the console market first in order to get people into a PC-driven ecosystem. The traditional idea of consoles needs to die, so they're able to play their best cards. All of the big three going games-as-a-service is something I would like to see, because -as I've said a million times- I don't want several boxes to do the same basic shit but I want access to all content out there. Plain as that. If I got you right, that's something you also want to see driven forward.

 

[paradise_circus]

are the rumors about the release of the neo really ao trustworthy?
releasing such a big gimmick and a new playstation seems to much for me.

 

[Cyborg]

If I invest in a new device power is everything for me. I would be very dissapointed if PS4 Neo would offer less power than the new XBOX.

I would consider buying XBOX to play (3rd party) games on maximum.

 

[tzare]

Or the system could be subsidized through subscription or monthly fees...

At this point, we are all delving into conjecture, some of which (not you), is inspired by console affiliation.

E3 and beyond will yield a better understanding.

of course, this is speculation over non confirmed facts.
That is why i think MS have to communicate their plan in a comprehensive way, and obviously that needs to find appeal beyond a more powerful box.

Oh i have my own affiliation, I prefer playstation, but these, apparently, midgen updates need a lot of information from platform holders, because if they fail to communicate their vision, they may have a hard time in the future because consumers may feel betrayed.
I just think the MS plan seems to be in the future so unveiling it this soon is delicate.

I hope both sony and MS show their cards next month at e3. So people can 'plan' their future purchases

 

[EventHorizon]

What really matters is the ecosystem and keeping users in that ecosystem. Connecting and playing with friends matter. 3rd party games matter. Services outside of only gaming matter (Netflix, PlayStation Vue, Spotify, etc...) Other hardware (PlayStation TV, PS Vita, "Xbox TV stick") matter. Gamerscore and Trophies matter. Backwards compatibility matter. Deals on games/apps matter.

But the reach of the ecosystem really is important and that's where Sony needs to step up. There's an Xbox app on every mobile platform, and every PC, and partly on the web. There are Xbox Live enabled games on mobile stores like the App Store and Google Play (albeit not a lot). All it really takes MS to do is push for games to be on those stores to get those users into their ecosystem. Right now, all PlayStation has is the PS4 (and to a smaller degree the Vita) going for them. They need to get that ecosystem out there wherever the Xbox is.

It will eventually become a battle of the services. That's how I see it. Playstation is in a good place because they have so many users on PS4 and it will be easier for them to create services around playstation for those users to keep them there (like PSVR). What Sony can't afford to do is keep everything so focused on the hardware (granted that is their strong suit) of the console and everything coming from the console...because if they do, they could get blindsided by something else.

Ecosystems matter to consoles, but I don't think all of the things you've mentioned are anywhere near equally important in creating that ecosystem. I'll break the items down into 3 tiers. I've also thrown in some other non-ecosystem factors that would also greatly influence console buying decisions like price. In general lower tiers only matter if on the whole, the consoles are tied in the tiers above them.

Tier 1

• Friends
• 3rd party games
• Release timing (first mover advantage)
• Price
• System power
• General inertia (Sony's ace in the hole. It saved their butts even with the disaster of the PS3 launch)

Tier 2

• Exclusives (could be more important but recently exclusives have been smoked by 3rd party games. Missing out on a 'Halo' type exclusive is now seen as carrying little cost.)
• Full generation compatibility (now only important due to half gen releases although not a factor because both Playstation and Xbox have it)

Tier 3

• Gamerscore and Trophies (didn't stop the exodus from Xbox to Playstation this gen)
• Services - Netflix, PlayStation Vue, Spotify... (unimportant due to being everywhere)
• Other hardware - PlayStation TV, PS Vita, "Xbox TV stick"... (hasn't shown any effect to date)

The main point I wanted to make was that all those hardware and software services in the third tier really don't matter. The are nice to have as a tiebreaker if all else is equal, but as Microsoft learned with the XB1, they are not primary factors in determining a console purchase. Sony should not rest on its lead and should expand its offerings, but only with the knowledge that core gaming it the key. I challenge your claim that Tier 3 items are the new battleground. They only will be added mostly because they already easily fit within existing systems.

For example I doubt that any hardware concessions were made to get Netflix on the PS4. It's there simply because a console powerful enough to play games is also powerful enough to play an internet movie. When Microsoft violated this rule for the XB1 and weakened their hardware to add services like snapping apps, they paid the price.

 

[Markoman]

If I invest in a new device power is everything for me. I would be very dissapointed if PS4 Neo would offer less power than the new XBOX.

I would consider buying XBOX to play (3rd party) games on maximum.

And if you're speaking for the general public, Sony will f... your plan by releasing a new console again one or two years later. Welcome to the infinite "Greatness Awaits"-loop...

 

[Zedox]

Again, I see what you're saying, but I really think there are different goals and objectives at play here. You're comparing Microsoft's wider business objectives directly with Sony's PlayStation division.

For example, I really don't think Andrew House and co will be fretting if Microsoft adds a "MAU" because someone logs into their Outlook account via the Windows 10 app. It's an apple to oranges scenario.

Where Sony will care is if people start choosing to sub to Xbox Live over PlayStation Plus. That's not happening at the moment, though, is it? I fully agree with you that Sony needs to be nimble and thinking to the future, and all of the services that you listed are evidence of them doing exactly that.

Well, their MAU is specifically for Xbox Live not random apps like Outlook, Excel, etc. That means more people using that service (even the free portion of xbl). Yes, I understand that they have different goals per each division (hell, Sony and MS were PC partners for a long time until Sony sold off VAIO) but one has to pay attention to a company as a whole when making strategic moves.

You know what that MAU does tell Andrew House? How many people are using the service comparative to theirs (as they don't tell us those numbers, they report how many PS4s are sold). So lets say PS4/K sell a combination of 60 million consoles. Ok, you have 60 million people maybe or maybe not using their service (granted they know their MAU), but if (BIG IF) MS' store starts doing well and they have a MAU of 80 million (just because there are way more people who have PCs than both Xbox and PS combined and yes I'm pulling a number out of my ass but just giving an example).

You think Andrew House wouldn't be worried that the Xbox service is reaching a lot more people. Sure, all of these won't be AAA games, but a lot of them will be indies. But the fact of the matter is that more people are using their service. What does that mean, developers (especially indies) would focus on getting the more "popular" platform. Indies do make a difference.

Also, it would be very interesting what Playstation MAU numbers are.

 

[MilkyJoe]

And if you're speaking for the general public, Sony will f... your plan by releasing a new console again one or two years later. Welcome to the infinite "Greatness Awaits"-loop...

Bring it on.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

I'm pretty sure manufacturing contracts would be in place by now for an October release. i'd say it was set in stone

The architecture and memory would be locked in, but things like the clock-speed could change. Maybe the current speeds are conservative, or maybe there is a more aggressive cooling option they can opt for.

Since there is no official announcement, it's not like Sony doesn't have a bit of wiggle-room to push to early 2017 if they really wanted to tweak something... but I doubt they need to, both are close enough.

 

[gamz]

Well, their MAU is specifically for Xbox Live not random apps like Outlook, Excel, etc. That means more people using that service (even the free portion of xbl). Yes, I understand that they have different goals per each division (hell, Sony and MS were PC partners for a long time until Sony sold off VAIO) but one has to pay attention to a company as a whole when making strategic moves.

You know what that MAU does tell Andrew House? How many people are using the service comparative to theirs (as they don't tell us those numbers, they report how many PS4s are sold). So lets say PS4/K sell a combination of 60 million consoles. Ok, you have 60 million people maybe or maybe not using their service (granted they know their MAU), but if (BIG IF) MS' store starts doing well and they have a MAU of 80 million (just because there are way more people who have PCs than both Xbox and PS combined and yes I'm pulling a number out of my ass but just giving an example).

You think Andrew House wouldn't be worried that the Xbox service is reaching a lot more people. Sure, all of these won't be AAA games, but a lot of them will be indies. But the fact of the matter is that more people are using their service. What does that mean, developers (especially indies) would focus on getting the more "popular" platform. Indies do make a difference.

Also, it would be very interesting what Playstation MAU numbers are.

That's to say there are 60M unique buyers. We know from previous gens that's not the case.

 

[Zedox]

Double-meh. And I'll go into stasis and come back when PS10 is released ;P



Z. bruh, I share some of your opinions (MS is well advised to do what they're doing - shifting strategy focus) but I don't share your optimism.

I'm not optimistic about what MS is doing for them to "win" anything. I don't care if they "win" or are the "leader"...it actually benefits me as a user of their stuff for them to try harder because they are #2.

Do I think that they have the potential to be #1, yes. Do I think it's going to happen with Scorpio? Not really. I don't think MS is going to be leading until they actually release a great HoloLens device that "changes" everything like smartphones did with the iPhone. Even then, I'm still not even sure. I just see a lot of potential in what they are doing. I still think Sony is going to be leading in the sales for consoles with the next machines coming, but I do think their lead won't grow to like 3:1 or something.

 

[Venom Fox]

Why are people saying Sony can't change the specs when we already know that they're two different configurations for Neo? The 4tflops one and an even greater one. Sony is not about to give up a power advantage they've had for the past 2 years. They've marketed the hell out of the PS4 being more powerful so I don't think they'd drop that for nothing.

 

[EventHorizon]

You don't know this for certain. "Faster" is a relative term. If scorpio has two or three times the memory bandwidth compared to PS4k, The hardware will have less bottlenecks and could potentially do more. At the moment it seems any bandwidth change on PS4K is due to a slightly increased clock rate.

TFLOPS is peak performance with no bottlenecks, which isn't anywhere close to real world performance. People need to consider what real world performance would be on these new systems. For instance on PS4 running at 4k would dramatically increase memory bandwidth usage.

The comment I was replying to was basing their argument on TFLOPS alone. I replied based on that analysis.

As for your comment, I'll simply say that consoles are not designed to have the bottlenecks like you describe. That would be wasteful. If there truly were such huge bottlenecks that prevented all the TFLOPS from being used, the unusable extra performance would be be eliminated to save money. These consoles aren't thrown together on a whim by amateurs.

 

[MilkyJoe]

The architecture and memory would be locked in, but things like the clock-speed could change. Maybe the current speeds are conservative, or maybe there is a more aggressive cooling option they can opt for.

Since there is no official announcement, it's not like Sony doesn't have a bit of wiggle-room to push to early 2017 if they really wanted to tweak something... but I doubt they need to, both are close enough.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Neuromancer]

You think Andrew House wouldn't be worried that the Xbox service is reaching a lot more people.

Yeah I don't think he's sweating anything right now.

 

[Zedox]

Yeah I don't think he's sweating anything right now.

As he shouldn't be, but I can bet he's definitely looking at the trajectory of those numbers compared to theirs. That's what a smart businessman would do.

 

[Reckless Onion]

So is this whole thread based on this sentence?


"The current performance target for Microsoft's Scorpio is approximately 6 teraflops"


Or is there an actual source?


Not trying to shitpost, just actually curious

 

[Zedox]

So is this whole thread based on this sentence?


"The current performance target for Microsoft's Scorpio is approximately 6 teraflops"


Or is there an actual source?


Not trying to shitpost, just actually curious

Yes. lol.

 

[PG2G]

Thanks for answering. Let me propose this: let's say ray tracing is the next movement in technology. With this setup we'll receive very small increments of advancements. Higher resolutions and framerate do not make a better game. Could you imagine if this model was implemented in ps1 day? 1080p ps1 games...That's what bothers me about this. Find a solution and I'll be ok with this.

Yeah but... it's the same model as the PC. A single game has to run across various high and low end specs over many generations of hardware. That hasn't seemed to stop innovation there.

You also have to consider that gen1 to gen2 is likely to be 2-3 years, not 4-6 like we have now, so while you might think ps1 games in 1080p, that'd probbaly happen only until time frame that ps1 was getting replaced by ps2 anyway.

 

[dano1]

Would bet my house that Sony won't be offering up a PS5 two years after Neo drops.

I will bet my shed its a 3 year cycle from now on.