Well, until July when you pay for it. Then after that, all the upgrades to the OS will be free (so no Windows 11).
Polygon: Xbox Scorpio will be a ~6 TFLOP system (v PS4K's 4.14), unveil soon, Fall 17
- Thread starter BUNTING1243
- Start date
Well, until July when you pay for it. Then after that, all the upgrades to the OS will be free (so no Windows 11).
yeah but will you pay for features? that's freemium
SneakyStephan
Banned
You are confusing retail fees with platform holder royalties
retail fee = the cut gamestop, greenmangaming, amazon, the steam store (emphasis on store) take for selling a game on their storefront.
EA for example have their own storefront (origin) because then they don't have to pay any store fees and make more profit on their games. Same goes for blizzard (they don't sell on third party stores at all only on battle.net (and in retail ofc because not everyone buys DD)
platformholder fee is what the name suggests, it's a royalty fee you pay to the platformholder to be publish your game on their platform.
It's an additional fee on top of the retail cut ,EVERYONE who sells a game for a playstation console or on IOS (apple's mobile OS) pays that fee.
When blizzard sell diablo 3 for ps4 in gamestop, sony is still getting a cut of that.
Valve are not the platformholder of PC (pc has no platformholder) , you can sell a steamworks game in your own store or at retail or in another online store like greenmangaming or GOG and valve will NOT get a cut from the sale even though it activates on steam.
If valve were the platformholder on pc then they'd be able to prevent anyone from running an application on the pc without valve's explicit permission and be able to charge a royalty fee for that 'privilege'.
But since they are not, nothing prevents publishers and users from simply going elsewhere with their business, which is why valve have to behave and act somewhat benign if they want to keep their marketshare on pc intact.
This is the whole reason why MS went into the xbox console business in the first place, because they wanted a platform they could control and charge royalty fees on, that's how MS make their money on the xbox.
This is also apple's business model with IOS and how they generate their insane revenue.
Microsoft are after this apple level of revenue, but for that they need to become the platform holder of the PC.
Which they can't do currently because win32 is an open api and you can run unsigned applications on windows through it , MS can't stop you from publishing on pcs with windows installed on them , you don't have to go through them at all.
Enter UWP
UWA is a walled garden api like on on consoles and pc, it has to be signed by MS or it will refuse to run at all https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/packaging/packaging-uwp-apps , and since it's sandboxed you can't do shit about that.
(and this is then marketing spinned as a 'security' feature, prevent unsigned code from running aka the whole insulting 'add a phishing tool to the game so that it's now capturing my passwords as I type them into chrome' "concern" troll Spencer spouted at build.)
If you want to sell your software , be it on your own store or a third party store, you still have to get your application signed by MS
They hold the keys now.
So if win32 is phased out for UWA (which is what the MS shills always suggest is the future, but it's quite a distopian future) then MS will have successfully taken control of the windows pc platform.
At which point they can treat it just like they treat their xbox, and just like apple treat IOS.
Btw it doesn't mean third party storefronts like steam would go away necessarily (which is the kind of strawman that message steerers love to bring up so they can defeat it to put people at ease about the wrong 'issue'. It just means those will all have to go through MS to be able to operate. i.e platformholder royalties
There is no reason for MS to bring their exclusives to PC when on xbox they collect xbox live paywall fees and platformholder royalty fees on every sale if they can't make that kind of money on PC
Apple have shown companies like MS what kind of money there is to be made if you have full control over a platform with a huge install base (and the windows install base is ginormous, obviously).
It's not in publishers' interests to let this happen. EA did not make origin (to circumvent paying a retail cut) just to end up paying royalties to MS instead.
CDPR did not make gog to do the same. Valve have no interest in having to go through MS (which is why they went as far as making steamOS, which is obviously an uphill battle as they lose win32 compatibility ).
It would absolutely BLOW my mind if valve ever supported UWA, or EA for that matter.
And from a consumer standpoint: turning the open windows platform on pc into a walled garden controlled by MS is obviously a nightmare scenario as well.
So either pc users want to keep their platform open and will reject UWP (as long as UWP implies UWA), or windows will turn into IOS or a glorified xbox dashboard and the people who want to use an open platform will be forced to move to linux (and lose 20+ years of win32 bc in the process)
So be smart, and don't support UWA applications.
And on top of that be smart and support any game made for vulkan instead of directx, because in the scenario where MS manage to push UWA on windows you'll want to have your game library be compatible with linux.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
I would predict yes. They will drop the Xbox One and it's name and go full steam ahead with a next gen philosophy. 4 years it will have had on the market by the time of the Scorpio's release which is the same as the original Xbox.
I would also predict that it will be capable of playing XB1 games, possibly by some thin emulation layer to emulate the old RAM setup. If it uses HBM2 they may just be able to brute force it. I doubt there will be any DDR3 or ESRAM in the Scorpio.
Still my 10" Toshiba atom-tablet is part of that number.
Surface as reference implementation for Windows 10 is a true success story. Windows is increasingly expanding to smaller, less powerful devices and UWP and MAUs are not interesting for Call of Duty but for Clash of Clans.
I've said this before but
I think It'll have alot of similarities internally, but rebranded and visually altered to the point you might as well consider it a new generation Xbox
Like Vista and 7
7 was literally just Vista SP2 with the aero skin! Thats the power of marketing
Microsoft doesn´t pay 350 $ for the chip.
And you also cannot use the reduced price of old hardware as a basis.
They can use 14 nm by the end of 2017 which makes the chips much cheaper.
dragonelite
Member
No from what i understood of it. They just sell you a Windows License. Its probably cheaper this way for microsoft. Instead of supporting 3 versions of Windows.
Banderdash
Member
Thanks, I think I understand some of that.
Probably.
Xbox One is only weaker than PS4 because they used all the money on Kinect and thought nobody cared about the rest of the console ... ;-)
(Thanks Don Mattrick ....)
Shifty1897
Member
Either Scorpio will be over $399 or it won't be 6 TFLOPS. I don't think we're at a point where you can do both.
"a well-known European studio is planning "a new VR game" set in the universe of an established, long-running franchise."
Well well, new thread?
Also if this is true, looks like Scorpio is becoming more real
Oh boy. This E3 too? Wow. New thread worthy.
Actually, that isn't particularly clear on the Xbox part of itm
dragonelite
Member
It won't sell well at that price, one of the main reasons ps4 took the uk was down to price Xbox one launched here for £429.99 just let that sink in for a moment, where as the ps4 was £349.99, I have no doubt it would've been a very close race here if they didn't launch at a very silly high price.
If ms goal with this new version is to broaden the appeal and claw back some of that market share then coming out at a similar price point to the Xbox one launch price won't do that, infact it won't do jack shit for them it will only sell to thier inbeded fanbase.
TheVoidDragon
Member
I saw somewhere that they're going for an Occulus Rift partnership with this, but i thought they already had one?
blue_phazon
Member
Nooo I don't want boring ass VR demos at MS's conference ;_;
Don't they already have the same deal with both?. Doesn't oculus ship with Xbox pad too?.
TheVoidDragon
Member
Yeah i just saw that they have a partnership with Occulus as well. So they already have some sort of deal with both.
LukasTaves
Member
I meant locked in the sense that the user becomes more attached of the platform, not a physical lock.
I think the controller was the first deal and the ability to stream Xbox games in some VR cinema was the first deal, I think the implication is that this new deal is outright support for VR games with Oculus Rift as the hardware running it
MaulerX
Member
A couple thoughts...
Going to a shorter iterative model doesn't preclude killing support for older models once they are too far out of date. Really, that has to happen.
I would argue that the current model is slower at making those drastic leaps because they do NOT quickly kill old gen, but rather keep supporting it for years into the new gen until the install base starts to catch up. By the time devs have mostly abandoned old gen and are making true current gen worthy games, the current gen is already obsolete. With a more iterative model, we're getting better looking games sooner. But maybe you're saying that you just prefer longer cycles so you get a bigger delta, even if it happens later?
Maximilian E.
AKA MS-Evangelist
Because officially, Xbox One exists, Scorpio not yet.
You are correct. I definitely stated that poorly. Thanks.
longdi
Banned
That is not always the case. It can be bad choice in SoC and such.
There was no reason why a 1.2Tflops Xbone should be $499, yet bigger sized and launches in the same month as a 1.8Tflops $399 PS4.
Or Xbox360 couldn't have launched a year earlier than PS3 yet retained the more advanced graphics performance...
I hope Sony's choice of a 50% weaker Neo (using same jaguar CPU, same 8GB, slightly faster GDDR5) is down to time-to-market and priced-to-market, rather than a mis-step in the choice of SoC..
not like this Kaz...Shu..
I'm going to be a math pedant and point out that Scorpio being 50% more powerful than Neo would mean Neo was 33% weaker than Scorpio
If that '5-6 Tflop' ballpark actually winds up with a 6Tflop GPU alone, of course.
longdi
Banned
I'm going to be a math pedant and point out that Scorpio being 50% more powerful than Neo would mean Neo was 33% weaker than Scorpio
If that '5-6 Tflop' ballpark actually winds up with a 6Tflop GPU alone, of course.
Either way, we are now looking at an excess of 1.8Tflops Scorpio has over Neo...that is an extra PS4 worth in Scorpio! These 1.5 consoles should still be targeting 1080p, so even though PS4 have 50% faster specs than One, it was only 0.6Tflops excess...
It is crucial Sony gets the timing right for Neo's release...
Edit: you are also right, it is scary the 6Tflops comparison is likely the GPU only, seeing that this is from Polygon and their sources (read: layman comparision). We still dont know what CPU MS will select and if they are going to use GDDR5X or bigger/faster EDRAM or HBM, then the gap will get even bigger.. :/
Does anyone think the new xbox will be even mentioned at e3?
There is no way. That is too much of a power increase...and way to far out. It will hurt xbox sales big time.
I see just a price drop and xbox slim
Xbox one.five deserves a dedicated show just to show its capabilities.
There is no way. That is too much of a power increase...and way to far out. It will hurt xbox sales big time.
I see just a price drop and xbox slim
Xbox one.five deserves a dedicated show just to show its capabilities.
CrimsonEclipse
Member
This is becoming too much now, please stahp!
MilkyJoe
Member
they are fucked either way if sony decides to announce ps4k for this year. might aswell drop some info on scorpio
It'll be dictated by the market and how long each company is willing to go with the less powered system. Sony may operate on a 3 year cycle, but then they could easily decide to release an 8-9TF Neo 2 in 2018 to leapfrog MS again. At which point MS may decide 2 years is too long to be underpowered and release Scorpio 2 in 2019. At any point one of them might decide to release at the same time as the other.
Sony have been fairly conservative with Neo though, so they may just stick with it for 4 or 5 years and just release a PS5 in 2020/2021 giving PS4 overall a 7+ year cycle. In which case Neo is just a mid/early cycle boost for 2016/2017 and accepting lower hardware sales after that for a couple of years.
Well Xbone was that much because Kinect, and Xbox 360 retained the superior GPU because AMD gave MS a kick ass GPU that was a hybrid of x1900 series and also had unified shaders. Nvidia on the other hand shafted Sony with their "2x 6800" performance RSX which was just dated on day one.
Wishmaster92
Member
HYPE!
It's all relative.
But I agree, if their schedules and price targets were the same, this difference would be disappointing for Sony. If they're schedules are different then it's another matter... it's just a function of alternating update cycles. If Sony goes earlier, Sony would be offering a 3Tflop difference until Microsoft's update cycle kicked in, and so on, back and forth they might go.
I actually meant that the figure might be over-flattering. Kotaku says 5-6 Tflops. If the GPU is 5.3Tflops, for example, and you factor in a 2gigaflop GPU, it's an easy 'round-up' to the 6Tflops headline figure. That kind of config would also be in keeping with the rumours so far, but in percentage terms, substantially nearer Neo's rumoured spec than if the GPU was 6Tflops on its own. So I think we have to wait and see what the hard spec is, because a range fits the rumours to date. Anything from 'only' 25% better than Neo to something 50% better, on the GPU side, is possible with these rumours.
E3 2017, if it even exists. We all saw the Road to Fortaleza stuff out of Microsoft and the Durango specs, both of which were off in many ways. I think Scorpio is a purposeful leak to spark interest from the gaming community in the Xbox brand which has been a bit sagging lately. They may very well be introducing new hardware in 2017, but the "leak" was more strategic than anything else.
rokkerkory
Member
Just imagine when consoles are iterative, we won't be arguing over power specs anymore as it is less relevant.
Maybe not so obvious but teased, the plan ahead. Basically to cast some doubt into people thinking about going PlayStation or upgrading to Neo. All they can do really. Don't think we'll see a box or anything. Their big push is Windows 10 and a very cheap Xbox One slim and maybe that streaming stick thing. They focus on two different customers so Scorpio shouldn't really scupper Xbox One just like Neo won't scupper the PS4. $200 vs $400.
actually we'll be arguing over power specs even more frequently. your optimism warms my heart
jeff_rigby
Banned
Launch PS4 and XB1 are confirmed UHD Capable and MS's VP stated at launch (2013) that the XB1 has the hardware to play UHD Blu-ray.
UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013 but won't be firmware updated to support it till 2016. There is a BDA Licence for UHD Blu-ray game consoles and Sony has a License for a UHD Movie player/Game Console/test player and a License for a UHD Blu-ray PC application. There is a second paper naming both the XB1 and PS4 as UHD game consoles. The PS3 and Xbox 360 are labeled as HD.
is this true ?
it's jeff_rigby, who knows
Interesting.
I wonder if Microsoft's aim with Scorpio, in addition to supporting VR, is to be the first console to 4K games? Makes me think back to the marketing deal they had with Samsung TV's at the 360's launch.