Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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Just got to say, the Framemeister is freaking amazing for 240p content. Old news I know, but pretty new news for me :)

Btw, I generally prefer Implantgames profiles to FBX, is that only me?

Another thing, have people been able to satisfyingly use the zoom-settings to get rid of the black borders on pal-games without widening the changing the form of the pixels?
 
oh btw, the calibration done on the TV doesn't show on the capture pics. the capture card is pretty much untouched raw capture.
i just didn't post screen grabs from the TV because my camera is very bad and would make the comparison useless.
 
Mega said:
I dunno, seems highly unlikely and not something anyone would commit time and energy to discover doing... due to how extremely niche its use would be.

There is a possible alternative we touched on a couple of pages ago. JVC, Panasonic and Ikegami each had a HD CRT that was basically identical, rebranded for each company. They all look to use the same input cards but with different code names.

JVC: IF-C01COMG
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/MONITOR/brochure/dtv1700cg.pdf
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/MONITOR/brochure/dtv1710cg.pdf

Ikegami: CPN-1700
http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/pdf/htm1700r.pdf

Panasonic: BT-YA702
http://www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model/777948/BT-H1700.pdf
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Interesting, kind of an expensive and/or long term experiment, but if I can get a couple of these monitors with cards I would try swapping and see if it works.
 
FBX is putting together pages for his framemeister profiles so you can see what they look like without using them yourself: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

Only NES/SNES/N64 are up yet, but they're coming along well.
Shin Johnpv said:
I much prefer Implantgames' profiles. They just look better on my tv.
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Why? They should be using similar scaling settings. is it the color? if so, you should be adjusting that for your display regardless.
 
dark10x said:
Maybe this will interest you guys...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUZ436FXB4U

I did a quick retro video for DF on Quake for Sega Saturn. Hoping that we get a decent number of views on it as, if we do, I'll be able to do more retro videos in the future. Would love to tackle some face-offs on this stuff!
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That's really great, watched the whole thing.

You might have mentioned Death Tank Zwei, the greatest console easter egg of all time, though. ;)
 
NormalFish said:
Why? They should be using similar scaling settings. is it the color? if so, you should be adjusting that for your display regardless.
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It's not color no, it's the overall look and feel of the profiles. Maybe ImplantGames has a tv that's similar to mine, I don't know, but his profiles just seem to work better for me.
 
Mega said:
That was great albeit a little short. I was ready to settle in for a 20-30 minute video!
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Heh, I might get to make some longer ones now since this has been successful enough. That was just a quick thing I did in one afternoon to test the waters.

I had a Shenmue project floating around which I've finished today in the meantime. That one is around 15 minutes long, at least.

There will definitely be more to come!

You might have mentioned Death Tank Zwei, the greatest console easter egg of all time, though. ;)
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Heh, I really should have included it. It hit me once I loaded up Duke 3D again and saw that on the main menu.
 
geniusbits said:
Purchased! Thanks! I'm super looking forward to trying out my own pro monitor. In fact I've been toying with the idea of letting go of my Framemeister. It works awesome but I do have some of the CRT purist in me.
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Framemeister ain't bad (though it has its flaws) but the CRT path is much more superior. Great decision. Also, if it's not too late, I've got leftover BNC ports that I could give you instead of going through the hassle of buying from China. I bought a 10 pack but have only been using 3. Probably a maximum of 6 is what I'd use but I doubt that.
 
Pastor Steven Anderson said:
Framemeister ain't bad (though it has its flaws) but the CRT path is much more superior. Great decision. Also, if it's not too late, I've got leftover BNC ports that I could give you instead of going through the hassle of buying from China. I bought a 10 pack but have only been using 3. Probably a maximum of 6 is what I'd use but I doubt that.
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Too late, thanks any way. I might buy another monitor and need...I guess 4 for each (R, G, B and sync).
 
Pastor Steven Anderson said:
Framemeister ain't bad (though it has its flaws) but the CRT path is much more superior. Great decision. Also, if it's not too late, I've got leftover BNC ports that I could give you instead of going through the hassle of buying from China. I bought a 10 pack but have only been using 3. Probably a maximum of 6 is what I'd use but I doubt that.
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There's pluses and minuses to either path. It's all about what someone is willing to live with and/or what sort of picture they're after. Audio can even be a factor.
 
televator said:
There's pluses and minuses to either path. It's all about what someone is willing to live with and/or what sort of picture they're after. Audio can even be a factor.
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I really feel like CRT is superior to Framemeister as far as IQ and overall gaming experience is concerned but Framemeister is great for the sake of convenience.

I've never thought: this game looks great on my CRT but I can't wait to see it on my Framemeister. I have, however, felt the opposite way many times though.

Framemeister will age far better than CRTs so I bought one simply to future-proof my collection. I imagine there will some day be a generation of gamers that will never know what video games actual look like on CRTs because there won't be any of them left.

I also don't see how audio could ever be a factor in this decision.
 
Peltz said:
I really feel like CRT is superior to Framemeister as far as IQ and overall gaming experience is concerned but Framemeister is great for the sake of convenience.

I've never thought: this game looks great on my CRT but I can't wait to see it on my Framemeister. I have, however, felt the opposite way many times though.

Framemeister will age far better than CRTs so I bought one simply to future-proof my collection. I imagine there will some day be a generation of gamers that will never know what video games actual look like on CRTs because there won't be any of them left.

I also don't see how audio could ever be a factor in this decision.
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That's you and it's fine, but there are other things that aren't so attractive about CRTs to me. Convergence, geometry, size, weight, 480i flicker, squeal... I very begrudgingly switch to a CRT when input lag is a problem on my plasma.

Pastor Steven Anderson said:
Not quite sure I understand this part. I assume you're referring CRT VS HDTV speakers?
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HDMI mods bypass the low quality DAC inside any given console. The audio can then be fed into the superior DAC of a receiver/processor. The decision to go HDMI is no longer simply about HDTV Vs. CRT, but analog Vs. digital in all respects.
 
Definitely a preference thing. If CRTs were as objectively superior as some in this thread would have you believe, they wouldn't be a dying technology.
 
NormalFish said:
Definitely a preference thing. If CRTs were as objectively superior as some in this thread would have you believe, they wouldn't be a dying technology.
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They are objectively superior in several ways. I don't play 1080p games or watch movies on my CRT, I use my plasma, of course, which is objectively superior in other ways.

I'm definitely hoping for a future where I can buy a flat panel television that objectively beats CRTs in every measurable attribute. That day (objectively) is not here yet.

SheepyGuy said:
Heat generation, power use, burn in / gamma issues on aging displays, needing a separate setup for it vs modern games...
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I assure you that my Kuro plasma generates more heat and uses more power than any of my CRTs. ;)

I could of course swap that Kuro for an LCD set that has an (objectively) worse image quality. Or for an OLED that still lags (unlike my CRTs) and has image retention and burn-in problems (unlike my Kuro plasma). And so on, and so forth.

Every display tech has its shortcomings. All are objectively inferior to other display techs, at least for some measurable attributes.
 
As someone who has come back to a PC crt this year after a very long time I have to say they still hold their own in certain categories. Can't argue that they have their negatives too.
 
televator said:
HDMI mods bypass the low quality DAC inside any given console. The audio can then be fed into the superior DAC of a receiver/processor. The decision to go HDMI is no longer simply about HDTV Vs. CRT, but analog Vs. digital in all respects.
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Or you can mod your console for digital audio out instead, and keep playing on a CRT.
 
Khaz said:
Or you can mod your console for digital audio out instead, and keep playing on a CRT.
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Toslink mods are very obscure as well as very few outside of the SNES. N64 is a good example. I've seen no toslink mods for it what so ever, but there is an HDMI mod. HDMI mods will only become more common and will eventually be available for most if not all consoles. I don't expect that kind of proliferation for stand alone digital audio mods.
 
geniusbits said:
Just bought an HD JVC monitor and the wookiewin SCART>>>BNC cable for RGB, but what is the best way to connect component to BNC?
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The monitor specs say "High Resolution" because of the high TVL count, but it's not HD (480p, 1080i, 720p). Strictly a 15KHz set for 240p, 480i and PAL equivalents.

NormalFish said:
Definitely a preference thing. If CRTs were as objectively superior as some in this thread would have you believe, they wouldn't be a dying technology.
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The consumer electronics industry-wide switch away from CRTs to LCDs had nothing to do with one's superior quality over the other and everything to do with cutting costs: manufacturing costs, repair and parts replacement, maximizing valuable retail shelf space, lesser warehouse storage, saving on gas and transportation costs, etc. Scaling production at the factory level must have been a huge factor seeing as that's been touted as a main reason why OLED has not yet caught on. So yeah, CRT was initially phased out because of practicality from a business standpoint. I do think the pioneers of the tech were looking ahead to the future (including greater resolutions, slimmer profiles) when the fixed pixel display would one day not be so awful and completely exceed CRT tech. It's gotten a lot better but they still haven't entirely succeeded.

That being said... retro games up to the sixth gen do look better on CRTs than plasmas and LCDs. My Panasonic plasma with the best Retroarch emulators and CRT filters still pales enormously next to my actual CRTs. Because of what I can see with my own eyes, I don't agree for a second with anyone saying that a BVM looks just like an emulator on a HDTV. A picture of a BVM being viewed on an LCD maybe (therefore misleading)! But not an actual BVM viewed in person!
 
Ha, I'd love to be able to set up a double-blind test for SNES and N64 analog versus digital audio, level matched and at normal listening volumes.

I'm a long time digital hi-fi guy with decent high-res SACD and DVD-A collections, alongside dozens of MoFi and DCC gold CDs, and even some HDTRACKS high-res downloads, Blu-Ray music disks, and so on.

Never once have I ever found the analog sound from my SNES or N64 to be lacking. I'm sure my receiver has a better DAC than either of those systems has, but we're still just talking about 16-bit sound being generated by relatively modest circuitry. We aren't talking about music that was produced and mixed and mastered on DAWs costing up to hundreds of thousands of dollars, it's being generated on the fly by 8 and 16 bit chips that cost a few bucks.

Mega said:
The consumer electronics industry-wide switch away from CRTs to LCDs had nothing to do with one's superior quality over the other and everything to do with cutting costs.
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That's practically an understatement. Pioneer quit making plasmas in 2008 because consumers demand for ugly $750 LCDs was immense compared to their reference-quality $3500 sets. Horrible rainbow-splattered rear-projection DLPs replaced 3CRT rear projectors before that, and so on.

It's all about magical price points and large profit margins. Display quality isn't driving anything. Go to Costco. 3 dozen flat panels, and every single one of them is LCD.

Every. Single. One.

Not one OLED on the entire floor.
 
Beer Monkey said:
Ha, I'd love to be able to set up a double-blind test for SNES and N64 analog versus digital audio, level matched and at normal listening volumes.

I'm a long time digital hi-fi guy with decent high-res SACD and DVD-A collections, alongside dozens of MoFi and DCC gold CDs, and even some HDTRACKS high-res downloads, Blu-Ray music disks, and so on.

Never once have I ever found the analog sound from my SNES or N64 to be lacking. I'm sure my receiver has a better DAC than either of those systems has, but we're still just talking about 16-bit sound being generated by relatively modest circuitry. We aren't talking about music that was produced and mixed and mastered on DAWs costing up to hundreds of thousands of dollars, it's being generated on the fly by 8 and 16 bit chips that cost a few bucks.
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Aside from noise there will be little gain on a more primitive console, true. However once we get to the 3D era, the gains can be quite substantial. From what I've heard of Dreamcast comparisons, there's a much broader sound stage to the audio that machine produces.
 
Mega said:
The The consumer electronics industry-wide switch away from CRTs to LCDs had nothing to do with one's superior quality over the other and everything to do with cutting costs: manufacturing costs, repair and parts replacement, maximizing valuable retail shelf space, lesser warehouse storage, saving on gas and transportation costs, etc. Scaling production at the factory level must have been a huge factor seeing as that's been touted as a main reason why OLED has not yet caught on. So yeah, CRT was initially phased out because of practicality from a business standpoint.
Click to expand...
This is a half truth. If this was the only reason, it wouldn't have caught on in such a short window. Flatscreens caught on because, for the most part, they remedy some of the biggest flaws of a CRT (they're typically sharper, lighter, more space efficient, easier to control, don't have capacitor squeal, look cleaner, etc.). Flaws that, for the most part, matter a lot to the general public. There are certainly other reasons but to imply that this wasn't the biggest seems ludicrous to me.

Mega said:
That being said... retro games up to the sixth gen do look better on CRTs than plasmas and LCDs. My Panasonic plasma with the best Retroarch emulators and CRT filters still pales enormously next to my actual CRTs. Because of what I can see with my own eyes, I don't agree for a second with anyone saying that a BVM looks just like an emulator on a HDTV. A picture of a BVM being viewed on an LCD maybe (therefore misleading)! But not an actual BVM viewed in person!
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And this is opinion. I don't disagree that CRTs look fantastic for older games, but everything in this paragraph is entirely subjective, which was kind of my point from the get go.
 
Maxpacker said:
on mine you press DISPLAY, 5, VOL+, and then power on the remote while the tv is off.
you then use 1 & 4 to scroll through different settings, and 3 & 6 change them.
mine is a 2004 trinitron 27"

make sure you write down the values first before messing around in the service menu.
i found a service manual for mine online that tell what the different codes do.

After i figured it out it's pretty cool being able to tweak geometry and color. My geometry is as good as it gets i think but impossible to get perfect.
Click to expand...

meant to reply to this! first, i need to dig up that pic of my set & find out the model #, then how to access the service menu!
ive no controller, is that usually needed for this? i could sort out a universal one, in a pinch
 
Morfeo said:
I love to blow the old pixel art up on my giant screen, and i cant do that with my crt.
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I'm seriously constantly cruising Craigslist and eBay for a local Sony G90 projector, cheap. There are some I can buy now but they are too far away. In the next couple of years I'm going to have CRT front projection of 80-120" and a projector that can run everything from 240p to 1080p natively and which even has HDMI input cards available.
 
NormalFish said:
how's the display lag on modern projectors? I've thought about picking one up but never felt it was the right time.
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Well I'm looking at CRT projectors, which don't buffer frames, so lag is not an issue.

In terms of stuff being produced now (LCD, DLP, other chip-based designs), lag is generally even worse with projectors than with flat panels. You have to research each model that you are considering.
 
Beer Monkey said:
Well I'm looking at CRT projectors, which don't buffer frames, so lag is not an issue.

In terms of stuff being produced now (LCD, DLP, other chip-based designs), lag is generally even worse with projectors than with flat panels. You have to research each model that you are considering.
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Yeah, that's what I figured. They'd be nice for some retro gaming applications but the lag does seem like an insurmountable issue at the moment.
 
Can anyone recommend a good switch box for S-Video, Component, and Composite inputs? I have a Sony KV-32XBR400 in my game room but just a crap ton of cables tied together that I have to plug in myself depending on which console I want to play. I have way more component inputs than anything else, but at least a few S-Video and Composite as well. I'd say 6 consoles plus a PC that I might also hook up eventually using S-Video.

NormalFish said:
Definitely a preference thing. If CRTs were as objectively superior as some in this thread would have you believe, they wouldn't be a dying technology.
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CRTs have their faults, no question, but as far as IQ goes, they most definitely are superior to LCD. It has far more to do with cost of production which LCD beats CRT hands down, than anything else. Consider a top of the line 32" CRT in the early 2000's cost about $2000, whereas you can get a 55" LCD for less than half that.
 
NormalFish said:
a fixed pixel display can look just as sharp or sharper than a CRT. You lost me.
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From my experience, only when you're running native-resolution content on them. The instant you need to run something lower-resolution, a CRT becomes the better choice, since it keeps that stuff looking as sharp as native-resolution content does, while the fixed-pixel display tends to introduce a bit of blurring instead.
 
The Shadow said:
Can anyone recommend a good switch box for S-Video, Component, and Composite inputs? I have a Sony KV-32XBR400 in my game room but just a crap ton of cables tied together that I have to plug in myself depending on which console I want to play. I have way more component inputs than anything else, but at least a few S-Video and Composite as well. I'd say 6 consoles plus a PC that I might also hook up eventually using S-Video.



CRTs have their faults, no question, but as far as IQ goes, they most definitely are superior to LCD. It has far more to do with cost of production which LCD beats CRT hands down, than anything else. Consider a top of the line 32" CRT in the early 2000's cost about $2000, whereas you can get a 55" LCD for less than half that.
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Did you miss the entire conversation? We already went over the pros and cons of the technologies in general. Some of which do affect CRT IQ negatively.
 
Shadow Hog said:
From my experience, only when you're running native-resolution content on them. The instant you need to run something lower-resolution, a CRT becomes the better choice, since it keeps that stuff looking as sharp as native-resolution content does, while the fixed-pixel display tends to introduce a bit of blurring instead.
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Yeah, I can agree on this. If you're running subnative content then a CRT is absolutely the way to go.

But I'm using a good upscaler, so I don't have that issue, fortunately.
 
Shadow Hog said:
From my experience, only when you're running native-resolution content on them. The instant you need to run something lower-resolution, a CRT becomes the better choice, since it keeps that stuff looking as sharp as native-resolution content does, while the fixed-pixel display tends to introduce a bit of blurring instead.
Click to expand...

From your experience. Many HDTVs do have bad bilinear upscaling to be sure, but sets known for performance tend to do great upscaling with little or no artifacts.

NormalFish said:
Yeah, I can agree on this. If you're running subnative content then a CRT is absolutely the way to go.

But I'm using a good upscaler, so I don't have that issue, fortunately.
Click to expand...

A good up scaler is no different from a great performing HDTV... In fact the TV could be better.
 
NormalFish said:
This is a half truth. If this was the only reason, it wouldn't have caught on in such a short window. Flatscreens caught on because, for the most part, they remedy some of the biggest flaws of a CRT (they're typically sharper, lighter, more space efficient, easier to control, don't have capacitor squeal, look cleaner, etc.). Flaws that, for the most part, matter a lot to the general public. There are certainly other reasons but to imply that this wasn't the biggest seems ludicrous to me.
Click to expand...

It's not a half truth that business decisions are a tradeoff dictated by viability and the company's bottom line. LCDs had worse PQ (still do by many measures) so quality and personal convenience was not the overriding concern that pushed CRTs out. We as consumers would never have been nudged so much towards LCD adoption if they didn't possess a cost-saving benefit to the manufacturer and retailer. Lesser factors like capacitor squeal, geometry, "cleaner" look and "easier to control" played no major part... same as horrid colors, ghosting, lag and viewing angles were no deterrent in the decision to push cheap LCD onto consumers over both CRTs and plasmas. If it's all about tech that remedies flaws of past alternatives, why haven't we altogether ditched LCDs and embraced OLEDs or even plasmas? The latter is better in almost every way and it's on its deathbed. Last I read OLED itself may never catch on if yields don't improve and costs don't come down. In summary, cheap shit wins every time, quality is secondary.

And this is opinion. I don't disagree that CRTs look fantastic for older games, but everything in this paragraph is entirely subjective, which was kind of my point from the get go.
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Yes, my personal preference but I find it is one that carries immense weight seeing as many of the best emulators, mods and scaling devices have features that strive towards game representation that mimics what CRTs natively do.

However, retro game + BVM CRT not looking like an emulated game with CRT shaders on a fixed pixel display is not at all a matter of personal preference. It's very different seen live, like a cheap LCD vs a good plasma perhaps. It's hard to describe but it's a very real, observable difference.

NormalFish said:
a fixed pixel display can look just as sharp or sharper than a CRT. You lost me.
Click to expand...

He said "as far as IQ goes, they most definitely are superior to LCD", which it is. There are other factors besides "sharpness" that form the basis of a screen's perceived level of quality to our eyes. The two most important ones are black levels (contrast) and color accuracy.
 
Mega said:
The consumer electronics industry-wide switch away from CRTs to LCDs had nothing to do with one's superior quality over the other and everything to do with cutting costs: manufacturing costs, repair and parts replacement, maximizing valuable retail shelf space, lesser warehouse storage, saving on gas and transportation costs, etc. Scaling production at the factory level must have been a huge factor seeing as that's been touted as a main reason why OLED has not yet caught on. So yeah, CRT was initially phased out because of practicality from a business standpoint. I do think the pioneers of the tech were looking ahead to the future (including greater resolutions, slimmer profiles) when the fixed pixel display would one day not be so awful and completely exceed CRT tech. It's gotten a lot better but they still haven't entirely succeeded.
Click to expand...
This is some weird alternate history. People bought LCDs en masse because they were big, thin, and flat. To get big CRT you have to go fat and heavy; to get a flat CRT you have to fuck up the geometry; you can't get a thin CRT. It helped that everyone was in the market for a new TV anyway due to HD.

Without that demand LCDs would have gone nowhere.

And really my LCD TV has good picture and low latency. Only thing I sacrificed was black level which I am more than OK with. If I were buying one today instead of 5 years ago I'd have even better options.
 
televator said:
A good up scaler is no different from a great performing HDTV... In fact the TV could be better.
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Yeah, but if you're playing, say, 480p content on an LCD that's 1080p, IQ is going to suffer unless your TV has an amazing built in upscaler.

Also black level is a weakness of LCD, yeah. color accuracy outside of the very lower end is fine on a modern LCD, though.
 
I don't want to play the quoting game on my phone but OLED is going nowhere because very few people are buying TVs anymore. Everyone bought a new LCD in the last 10 years, theyre not replacing them until they break.

Plasma failed because of burn in.

And 4K is going nowhere because who even cares? 1080p has lots of pixels.
 
NormalFish said:
Yeah, I can agree on this. If you're running subnative content then a CRT is absolutely the way to go.

But I'm using a good upscaler, so I don't have that issue, fortunately.
Click to expand...
Well, admittedly when I'm saying this, I'm mostly thinking in terms of PC gaming. I'd been using nothing but LCD monitors for years, until I picked up a nice KDS CRT offa eBay (and picked it up in-person, which was a unique experience - rather liked the conversation the seller and I had before putting the big, heavy box in my car) for use with a Windows 98 machine (for authenticity, I guess). Started playing some old games with it, and thought they looked drastically sharper than what I was used to for games that old and low-res. Double-checked the resolution they were running at, and was surprised to see that was lowly 640x480. That'd have looked like a bilinear-filtered mess on my modern widescreen monitors (and potentially wrong-aspect-ratio to boot, though that's usually only a few menu options away from being fixed - though I also recall having to set that every single time for some of my monitors, which got tiresome).

On the other hand, that CRT also supports 1600x1200, but even going as high as 1024x768 shows a bit of a distorted effect - like there's a subtle bright line wobbling all over the left side of the screen, which gets worse the higher the resolution gets. So, for high-resolution stuff, I'd probably prefer a good LCD monitor (I mean, shit, I went out of my way for an XB271HU to try IPS out, and I'm pretty pleased with it for modern gaming).

As far as upscalers go, I did like the XRGB-Mini well enough... though I switched away from it to CRT gaming (for now) because the signal loss on power-on/resolution change was a deal-breaker for me. Really wish something could be done about that, it was so good otherwise...
 
SheepyGuy said:
I don't want to play the quoting game on my phone but OLED is going nowhere because very few people are buying TVs anymore. Everyone bought a new LCD in the last 10 years, theyre not replacing them until they break.

Plasma failed because of burn in.

And 4K is going nowhere because who even cares? 1080p has lots of pixels.
Click to expand...
I think 4K is hampered -- at least in the gaming realm -- due to the massive increase in processing power needed, as well as the increased emphasis on higher refresh rates and higher quality panels in the PC gaming space. It's in an awkward space where many people are looking at gsync 1080p/1440p, at the same time 4k is trying to push in to relevance.

1080p definitely being sufficient for the vast majority of things doesn't help though, for sure.
 
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