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[cyborgnumberblue]

Well my Scart to BNC cables arrived and got a chance to play my Saturn with them on my PVM1354Q; looks fantastic. Not in Tate mode (yet) but here's a picture of Layer Section:

Looking good!

I had that exact same monitor and Layer Section was my favorite shmup to look at on it. Such a cool game.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I was referring to "correct" as being able to display all the data within the signal, regardless. I didn't have a proper term for it, so I used that to offer inflection to indicate that. Perhaps without success.

On my most "correct" monitor, over 2/3 (close to 3/4) of the screen is black space when viewing a 240p signal.

http://i.imgur.com/jzkh2iu.png

(240p on the left, duh, 480p on the right)

Given that the original artists and programmers did not intend their graphics to be 3/4 black space, I'd say that this is not "correct".

 

[NormalFish]

fair enough, but I still think that looks fantastic lol.

A matter of taste, for certain.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Also, were arcade monitors using RGB signals back in the day, too?

Absolutely.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Well my Scart to BNC cables arrived and got a chance to play my Saturn with them on my PVM1354Q; looks fantastic. Thanks for the cable recommendation, cyborgnumberblue. Not in Tate mode (yet) but here's a picture of Layer Section:

Looking good!

I had that exact same monitor and Layer Section was my favorite shmup to look at on it. Such a cool game.

Layer Section in RGB <3

Here are some Layer Section attract mode detail shots. Tate monitor so note the vertical scanlines, haha.

 

[Mega]

Beer was replying to my post:

Which was not specifically CRT focused in intent.

800 lines refers to television lines (TVL) which is specifically found in CRTs. 800 lines is a spec mentioned in the PDF I linked of the Ikegami CRT.

"correct" and "authentic" are written as such because they're subjective terms. What is "authentic" varies with where an individual is located, what systems they were playing, when they were playing them, etc. Someone who's 35 is going to have a different view of "authentic" than someone who's 50, or someone who's 20. Hence quotes. Because they're loaded terms that I don't think anyone should view objectively. You'll run yourself ragged trying to define authenticity in a way that everyone is happy with.

I was referring to "correct" as being able to display all the data within the signal, regardless. I didn't have a proper term for it, so I used that to offer inflection to indicate that. Perhaps without success.

That's understandable, but I did say a 400 line shadowmask monitor has a look that's much more authentic than a BVM as it pertains to how the majority of our games looked in the 1980s and 1990s, on the CRTs that were commonly available to 99% of us. I wasn't implying that this covers every unique case out there, including some guy playing Asteroids in the lab of a 1960s college campus.

The composite talk isn't relevant because that's a separate discussion from old-school 80s/90s CRT picture quality look vs BVM CRT picture quality. The latter can play games in ugly composite btw... so, wasn't about video signal.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

.

When I was talking about authenticity I only meant truest to the original way we (certainly myself) would have originally played these games, not the actual CRT technology involved.

Authentic in terms of the content would certainly be a different matter, one that I cannot wrap my head completely around yet, you crazy bunch of wonderful TV wizards!

 

[NormalFish]

800 lines refers to television lines (TVL) which is specifically found in CRTs. 800 lines is a spec mentioned in the PDF I linked of the Ikegami CRT.

I realize, but I was just remarking on the quality of the monitor in general, using the TVL as one such indicator.

That's understandable, but I did say a 400 line shadowmask monitor has a look that's much more authentic than a BVM as it pertains to how the majority of our games looked in the 1980s and 1990s, on the CRTs that were commonly available to 99% of us. I wasn't implying that this covers every unique case out there, including some guy playing Asteroids in the lab of a 1960s college campus.

The composite talk isn't relevant because that's a separate discussion from old-school 80s/90s CRT picture quality look vs BVM CRT picture quality. The latter can play games in ugly composite btw... so, wasn't about video signal.

Yeah, I get what you mean now. Just a matter of this thread bringing together people with different focuses, so these misunderstandings and differing uses of language are bound to happen.

 

[Madao]

"authenticity" is something i'd pass on very fast if it involved lowering the video/audio quality on purpose.

for me, i'm all about the best possible image quality from a console. if it involves an expensive modification to support a video output that didn't even exist back in the day, i'll go with it (UHDMI N64 for example).

Spoiler

also, i can't really stand the CRT buzz for too long.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

.

SO GOOD!

I picked up Soukyugurentai because I had read it was a spiritual successor to Layer Section, but the art style did nothing for me. Also, no TATE mode... T___T

 

[NormalFish]

Spoiler

also, i can't really stand the CRT buzz for too long.

This is honestly the biggest reason I don't use a CRT. A really nice one would be worth suffering through the capacitor squeal, but a lower end monitor just isn't worth the (literal) headaches.

 

[Conezays]

Layer Section in RGB <3

cyborgnumberblue

Looking good!

I had that exact same monitor and Layer Section was my favorite shmup to look at on it. Such a cool game.

Thanks! Your pictures look great. And yeah, it's a great game for the Saturn; one of my favourites. The colours and accuracy definitely look better in person. Here's a quick shot of Ghouls N' Ghosts:

 

[socksfelloff]

authenticity for me would be daisy chaining shit over RF so I could have everything hooked up at once. Mono sound and ontop of all that game consoles were always hooked up to the old TV.

I like my BVM.

 

[Randomizer]

Bah a local broadcast studio is selling some PVMs and JVCs but I am low on funds. Just my luck, been waiting on a 20" PVM forever and they have the exact model I want too, the PVM 20M4E. The things are so rare around here it's like a yearly occurrence that they are on sale, if that. Really tempted to sell my 1450qm to help pay for it.

 

[televator]

I consider myself as a "digital entertainment enthusiast." I'm not after authenticity - I want them 1s and 0s coming straight from the tap. There's a few exceptions when it comes to music recorded in analog form, but video (especially games) are quantized bits of light and I wanna keep that way from source to display.

 

[D.Lo]

A PVM/BVM is technically a way a rich person could have been playing their consoles in a contemporary setting. For the consoles that output RGB (or could with an easy mod). And it's how developers would have presented and tested their games internally too.

It's a 'premium authentic' set up. Which is kind of what collecting is like too, when I was a kid I couldn't have dreamed of having 200 NES/Famicom games on my shelf to chose from on a Saturday afternoon. But now I can, I'm recreating a 'rich kid in the 80s' set-up in a sense.

I was poor and played NES and even early SNES mostly on a black and white TV, I'm not trying to recreate my childhood, I'm trying to play the games as they were designed on an ideal set up.

The exception would be complex RGB mods like the NES (though I guess there's Famicom Titler to PVM which would have been possible)

 

[Mega]

I don't get this weird narrative that started up when cyborgnumberblue posted about Composite and mono sound + others' remarks about RF and general crappiness and equating that with wanting a display that's closer in authenticity to an ideal 90s picture quality.

You all get that I'm still talking about RGB and S-Video gaming on splendid high quality CRTs, right? Except ones that represent the characteristics of a great 90s arcade monitor or top notch shadowmask consumer TV... which the PVMs and BVMs do NOT have (as much as I do like them).

This talk about liking my BVM and LCD, I'm not going back to RF on a 9 inch blurry TV, etc., is a silly strawman that was never part of the discussion. This shouldn't even bear mentioning and need refuting if we remember this is still about "retro gaming done right."

 

[NormalFish]

You're talking past people because -- as I tried to explain -- the diction you use doesn't convey what you're trying to convey. This thread isn't exclusively about CRTs, so when you start talking about authenticity, of course this thread's population isn't going to immediately start thinking about the physical structure of a CRT.

 

[Mega]

You're talking past people because -- as I tried to explain -- the diction you use doesn't convey what you're trying to convey. This thread isn't exclusively about CRTs, so when you start talking about authenticity, of course this thread's population isn't going to immediately start thinking about the physical structure of a CRT.

That's ridiculous. We were not only talking about CRTs, but a specific CRT (the Ikegami I posted three links for). Then on THAT specific CRT you, beer and I were talking about how its PQ is not authentic to old school gaming like a 400 line shadowmask monitor like the ones beer and I own (an older 500 line Ikegami we both have and a 13" JVC I recently acquired as well). At some point, and as I predicted, the discussion went off on an absurd tangent about folks equating authentic with "terrible" and not wanting to game on crappy old monitors with awful low quality connections, even after explaining it has nothing to do with that.

And just to drive my point home... S-video N64 on my 320 line JVC with a more 90s-authentic PQ > Ultra HDMI on plasma > RGB on 500-line Ikegami > RGB on 600 line PVM > RGB on 900 line BVM=800 line JVC

^Missing from the above: RF/Composite on a garbage TV because it has nothing to do with this.

If that isn't enough! The comparison was about:
-Television lines
-Phosphor arrangement on the mask or grille
-Monitor glow due to phosphor type
-Scanlines or the lack of and the visual effect on types of games

 

[missile]

I love RF/composite. But only after realizing how ingenious it all was. xD

 

[Khaz]

Boy am I glad I missed the authenticity discussion. Growing up in France, where Scart was ubiquitous, gaming on a CRT in RGB is the only acceptable authentic experience. Composite burned my eyes even back then, I only ever saw an RF adapter in magazine adverts and wondered for the longest time what its purpose was.

My understanding is that a set with 400 or 800 TV lines shouldn't change your experience. As long as the TV line count is higher than the horizontal resolution of the source, everything is displayed correctly on screen. A higher TV line count won't give a better quality picture if there is nothing more to resolve. However, there is a correlation between the TV line count and overall set quality, scan line definition, etc. So having the TV line count going up can mean a better quality picture, but for other reasons.

400 TV line is plenty enough for up to the fourth generation of consoles. You could want a higher count for the high-res modes of the Saturn and Playstation (up to 640 iirc), watching a DVD (720), and using a super high res desktop mode in non-VGA computers like the Amiga (up to 1280 omg)

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

.

I really wasn't addressing anything other than NormalFish's statement that the TV he had as a kid was shitty. Compared to what we are using now, this is the case for all of us.

The authenticity I was referring to was playing them in the exact same way we did back then, which isn't what's happening, especially for us in the US.

I was not addressing anything regarding specific to the technologies of CRT displays that would generate an "authentic" or "correct" image. I was referring to more of the overall experience.

 

[Mega]

^Alright, np.

Bah a local broadcast studio is selling some PVMs and JVCs but I am low on funds. Just my luck, been waiting on a 20" PVM forever and they have the exact model I want too, the PVM 20M4E. The things are so rare around here it's like a yearly occurrence that they are on sale, if that. Really tempted to sell my 1450qm to help pay for it.

Selling for how much?

 

[Vespa]

Picked up a Jvc bm-h1400, not super impressed by the picture it is rather good though and handles 480i quite well and 240p is solid. I guess I was expecting a little too much. It's definitely sharper than my consumer sony trinitron set but I wonder if that's because it's a 14" compared to the 21" sony. Anybody know how to access the geometry controls on this?

It has a couple of scratches on it, what was it you used, Rich, Super glue? Toothpaste?

 

[geniusbits]

About this authenticity thing, I think there is something there. The way retro consoles look on the higher TVL monitors looks closer to emulation+scan lines to me than to a TV, and the smaller sprite NES games and other oddities like N64 can look totally alien with that setup. I don't just sharper, but objectively different, which is a separate choice than getting a sharper version of what you had before. Like the stereo analogy, you can get a better TT with a better cartridge and gold plated wires and great speakers, which makes the sound sharper, but that is a different process from getting a digitally remastered/enhanced recording. Where the lines are for each person is totally subjective, but there is a point somewhere between blurry, tiny garbage display and a gigantic, infinitely sharp and distinct TVL monitor (imagine if they had monitors 60" with 4000 TVLs and the necessary phosphor sharpness to resolve those lines) that the image would become "changed" rather than just "sharpened" for everyone.

 

[Khaz]

But the separation between two pixels doesn't change with an increase in TV lines beyond the horizontal resolution of the source. If anything, having more TV lines helps with having a line of identically coloured pixels look like a line and not a succession of dots when observed very closely.

 

[geniusbits]

But the separation between two pixels doesn't change with an increase in TV lines beyond the horizontal resolution of the source. If anything, having more TV lines helps with having a line of identically coloured pixels look like a line and not a succession of dots when observed very closely.

Have you actually seen shots of super high TVL monitors displaying small sprited games vs. more middling TVL monitors? The tech reasons don't matter, one looks totally weird. And again, we have been talking about how high TVL monitors = bigger unscanned lines because of the tighter phosphor effects those monitors have engineered in, so that they can resolve those higher line counts. If the phosphors bloomed out like in lower quality monitors across 1000 lines it would look a mess.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

Absolutely.

Very curious about this, was there a standard for this mandated by the game developers? For instance, was Capcom speccing out requirements for their machines (Our SF III cabinet MUST have 500 lines of resolution) or was it up to the cabinet manufacturer?

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Saw the latest MLIG video on their gaming setups. It looks like they got ahold of a wideboy 64 here, so it seems like their GB video will be extremely thorough.

 

[Madao]

Saw the latest MLIG video on their gaming setups. It looks like they got ahold of a wideboy 64 here, so it seems like their GB video will be extremely thorough.

ohh the wideboy. i wondered way back in the day why they didn't release consumer version of that to play GBC games on TV or later the Wideboy advance for GBA games on TV.
would be interesting what kind of image quality is possible from that and to see if me missed our or not.

 

[NormalFish]

I want a wideboy but that's truly outside my budget

 

[Beer Monkey]

Very curious about this, was there a standard for this mandated by the game developers? For instance, was Capcom speccing out requirements for their machines (Our SF III cabinet MUST have 500 lines of resolution) or was it up to the cabinet manufacturer?

From the late 70s to the mid 90s the arcade business had evolved from (mostly) selling full cabs to (mostly) selling kits to stick in any old cab. The reality of the industry is that if a board was compatible with a CRT, and it looked halfway decent, you're good to go. And everybody in the industry knew that was the reality.

However, here are some Atari specs from 1994 published on KLOV on 'standard resolution' monitor:

          HORIZONTAL                    VERTICAL
Scan Frequency: 15.72 KHz    Scan Frequency: 60.0 Hz
   Scan Period: 63.6 µSec       Scan Period: 16.7 mSec
  Active Video: 46.9 µSec      Active Video: 15.3 mSec
   Video Delay: 11.9 µSec       Video Delay:  1.2 mSec
    Sync Pulse:  4.7 µSec        Sync Pulse:  0.2 mSec
     Scan Line: 456 Pixels           Screen: 262 Lines
    Resolution: 336 Pixels       Resolution: 240 Lines
    Clock Freq: 7.16 MHz

336 pixels, assuming they mean TVL (which is calculated in screen heights but across the horizontal) that would be 448 unique visible pixels across the scanline. If for the sake of argument we say 448 is an official standard, applying a Kell factor of 0.7 we'd say the monitor can definitely properly resolve 313.6 lines of horizontal resolution.

But a Gauntlet arcade board renders at 336x240. Oh noes! Some detail might indeed be lost even by Atari's own definition of what monitor belongs in this cabinet!

 

[Mega]

About this authenticity thing, I think there is something there. The way retro consoles look on the higher TVL monitors looks closer to emulation+scan lines to me than to a TV, and the smaller sprite NES games and other oddities like N64 can look totally alien with that setup. I don't just sharper, but objectively different, which is a separate choice than getting a sharper version of what you had before. Like the stereo analogy, you can get a better TT with a better cartridge and gold plated wires and great speakers, which makes the sound sharper, but that is a different process from getting a digitally remastered/enhanced recording. Where the lines are for each person is totally subjective, but there is a point somewhere between blurry, tiny garbage display and a gigantic, infinitely sharp and distinct TVL monitor (imagine if they had monitors 60" with 4000 TVLs and the necessary phosphor sharpness to resolve those lines) that the image would become "changed" rather than just "sharpened" for everyone.

Exactly, there is something there. It's like comparing different types of fixed pixel technologies... they each look a certain way that's different from the other.

But the separation between two pixels doesn't change with an increase in TV lines beyond the horizontal resolution of the source. If anything, having more TV lines helps with having a line of identically coloured pixels look like a line and not a succession of dots when observed very closely.

The makeup of the CRT screen has a pronounced effect on how the visuals look. If you have several different types of 15KHz CRTs, you can see it for yourself testing with the same or similar games. In my group of CRTs, there are at least three distinctly different looks.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Exactly, there is something there. It's like comparing different types of fixed pixel technologies... they each look a certain way that's different from the other.

The makeup of the CRT screen has a pronounced effect on how the visuals look. If you have several different types of 15KHz CRTs, you can see it for yourself testing with the same or similar games. In my group of CRTs, there are at least three distinctly different looks.

Because of triads, triads, triads. Don'tcha love em'?

Shadow Mask:

Aperture Grille:

Slot Mask:

 

[Mega]

Neat, I didn't know about slot mask til now. In Wikipedia, it's called Cromaclear and inline shadowmask in the article (vs delta shadowmask). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromaclear

Do the NEC XM monitors use inline shadowmasks?

 

[Peagles]

Those all look beautiful to me

 

[Madao]

PC CRTs were secretly the HD TVs of the 90s.

now i regret more that the last PC CRT monitor from my house was tossed out without notice.

 

[Beer Monkey]

PC CRTs were secretly the HD TVs of the 90s.

now i regret more that the last PC CRT monitor from my house was tossed out without notice.

The early HDTV converter boxes had VGA and component out. I had a 21" Viewsonic pro CRT monitor that I used to watch TV on, it would sync to anything 480p and higher, including 1080i.

 

[Peltz]

PC CRTs were secretly the HD TVs of the 90s.

now i regret more that the last PC CRT monitor from my house was tossed out without notice.

I have the same regret :*(

 

[Bancho]

Picked up a Jvc bm-h1400, not super impressed by the picture it is rather good though and handles 480i quite well and 240p is solid. I guess I was expecting a little too much. It's definitely sharper than my consumer sony trinitron set but I wonder if that's because it's a 14" compared to the 21" sony. Anybody know how to access the geometry controls on this?

It has a couple of scratches on it, what was it you used, Rich, Super glue? Toothpaste?

I've got the service manual for this monitor. I'll dig it out for you later.

 

[Vespa]

I've got the service manual for this monitor. I'll dig it out for you later.

Thanks, Bancho. What's your opinion on the Jvc? I've played around with a bit more and it's definitely better than my Sony trinitron with fe-1 chassis. Sharpness of the 480i images comparable to a pc crt but with those moving interlacing fields. Not sure I'm going to keep it since 240p linedoubled with a scanline generator seems very similar to the Jvc's 240p.

 

[Bancho]

Thanks, Bancho. What's your opinion on the Jvc? I've played around with a bit more and it's definitely better than my Sony trinitron with fe-1 chassis. Sharpness of the 480i images comparable to a pc crt but with those moving interlacing fields. Not sure I'm going to keep it since 240p linedoubled with a scanline generator seems very similar to the Jvc's 240p.

There you go mate JVC Service Manual

I have the bigger brother 20" version and a love it. Its a great monitor, and gives a great picture. I only really play 240p content on mine. I have a PVM 20M4E too and they both have there own characteristics. The PVM is real sharp and clinical, while the JVC is just slightly softer.. but still really sharp. I would certainly hold on to it.

I always like to spam some pics of it hahaha.

And i actually found these photos i took to compare the JVC (Top) vs the PVM (Bottom)

 

[Vespa]

Cheers, Bancho!

Those pics are great, very sharp and vibrant. I've just been testing the screen against my new pick up, a Panasonic BT-M2090Y. I have to say the JVC is actually pretty sweet, I was using Sonic 1 to see how good the 240p image is but I think my settings for it in retroarch are wrong because it didn't look that good but with Yoshi's Island it's really impressive.

The Panasonic's picture is a little soft and less vibrant than the JVC's:

Can't complain for £12!

JVC shots:

A lot more vibrant! and a comparison with a PC CRT+Scanline generator (doesn't completely darken the non scanned lines):

 

[Conezays]

All of those pictures look great. It's interesting to see the minute (or vast) differences between monitors.

 

[Bancho]

Cheers, Bancho!

Those pics are great, very sharp and vibrant. I've just been tested the screen against my new pick up, a Panasonic BT-M2090Y. I have to say the JVC is actually pretty sweet, I was using Sonic 1 to see how good the 240p image is but I think my settings for it in retroarch are wrong because it didn't look that good but with Yoshi's Island it's really impressive.

The Panasonic's picture is a little soft and less vibrant than the JVC's:


Can't complain for £12!

JVC shots:


A lot more vibrant! and a comparison with a PC CRT+Scanline generator (doesn't completely darken the non scanned lines):

I found the JVC has really nice rich colours, especially reds. The Mitsubishi looks sweet. I got a Relisys 17" monitor a month back, New Old Stock for £10. Its ok but nothing special.

My JVC cost me 99p but i gave the guy a Quid lol.

 

[TAFK]

So, call me stupid but I'm still trying to figure out how to get some upscaler action working.

For my NTSC PS1, if want to upscale to RGB can I buy an SCART PS1 cord, a box that changes SCART to YUV and then just use the YUV cord into my TV? How would I get sound in this situation as I know the box doesn't have the sound output as well?

I've read some retrorgb guides but I guess I might just not be understanding everything entirely. Obviously I'd want to grab an rgb monitor in the future but I don't have space right now in my apartment for one.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Saw the latest MLIG video on their gaming setups. It looks like they got ahold of a wideboy 64 here, so it seems like their GB video will be extremely thorough.

The room tour was a cool video. Giving me ideas, lol.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

The room tour was a cool video. Giving me ideas, lol.

Some of it is interesting but they spend way too much time on their overcomplicated switcher solutions.

My solution of sharing wires between compatible systems and just swapping out consoles / SCART/component cables when needed has been pretty good. I also recently stuck some doors on the front of my console bays in my ikea expedit shelf (with the back cut out for airflow) which looks super clean.

 

[NormalFish]

So, call me stupid but I'm still trying to figure out how to get some upscaler action working.

For my NTSC PS1, if want to upscale to RGB can I buy an SCART PS1 cord, a box that changes SCART to YUV and then just use the YUV cord into my TV? How would I get sound in this situation as I know the box doesn't have the sound output as well?

I've read some retrorgb guides but I guess I might just not be understanding everything entirely. Obviously I'd want to grab an rgb monitor in the future but I don't have space right now in my apartment for one.

You don't "upscale" to RGB. RGB and YUV are video formats. Upscaling is taking a signal and raising the resolution, regardless of video format.

 

[socksfelloff]

So, call me stupid but I'm still trying to figure out how to get some upscaler action working.

For my NTSC PS1, if want to upscale to RGB can I buy an SCART PS1 cord, a box that changes SCART to YUV and then just use the YUV cord into my TV? How would I get sound in this situation as I know the box doesn't have the sound output as well?

I've read some retrorgb guides but I guess I might just not be understanding everything entirely. Obviously I'd want to grab an rgb monitor in the future but I don't have space right now in my apartment for one.

Honestly the better solution for ps1 games, since your converting to yuv anyway, is a ps2 via component and then you get the audio cables

If you're dead set on rgbs you can get a scart pass through box that breaks out the audio into rca Jack's