Support NeoGAF

[Khaz]

For my NTSC PS1, if want to upscale to RGB can I buy an SCART PS1 cord, a box that changes SCART to YUV and then just use the YUV cord into my TV? How would I get sound in this situation as I know the box doesn't have the sound output as well?

You could do that or simply use a PS2.

If you want to use RGB on a PS1, or any other console, what you described is good. Make sure the Scart cable is indeed RGB (some, often the cheapest, may not be. In doubt ask the seller.) You can take sound either directly from the console if it has audio out, or at the end of the Scart cable via a small adapter. Or you can mod the box very easily.

The biggest problem with PS1 YUV, either through a encoding box or a PS2, is that some TV just don't like 240p YUV. They can take 240p Composite fine, but for some reason 240p Component isn't good for them. Unfortunately there is no other way to know but to try.

 

[televator]

So, call me stupid but I'm still trying to figure out how to get some upscaler action working.

For my NTSC PS1, if want to upscale to RGB can I buy an SCART PS1 cord, a box that changes SCART to YUV and then just use the YUV cord into my TV? How would I get sound in this situation as I know the box doesn't have the sound output as well?

I've read some retrorgb guides but I guess I might just not be understanding everything entirely. Obviously I'd want to grab an rgb monitor in the future but I don't have space right now in my apartment for one.

Well, what you describe is not "upscaler action." That's problem #1 in your post. I would recommend reading the OP to get acquainted with terminology and methodology.

 

[Beer Monkey]

The biggest problem with PS1 YUV, either through a encoding box or a PS2, is that some TV just don't like 240p YUV. They can take 240p Composite fine, but for some reason 240p Component isn't good for them. Unfortunately there is no other way to know but to try.

I'm pretty sure virtually all analog CRT SDTVs (the ones that ONLY display standard def NTSC) are fine with 240p component. HDTVs and EDTVs are a gamble.

 

[Khaz]

I'm pretty sure virtually all analog CRT SDTVs (the ones that ONLY display standard def NTSC) are fine with 240p component. HDTVs and EDTVs are a gamble.

That's a given, but we have to assume that when people say "TV", they really mean LCD HDTV.

 

[Beer Monkey]

That's a given, but we have to assume that when people say "TV", they really mean LCD HDTV.

If it's a flat panel and not a Samsung, the odds of it accepting and displaying 240p properly is probably like 1%!

 

[Mega]

To get audio from the PS1 while using a RGB to YUV converter, get a Scart cable with audio breakout. https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk...on-1-2-ps1-ps2-rgb-scart-cable-lead-rca-sound

Or if you already have a regular PS1 Scart cable, get an adapter box with audio breakout. http://www.ebay.com/itm/scart-audio...-yuv-component-video-converters-/161612341108

But I agree that the best approach is to just get a PS2 with a Component cable.

 

[televator]

If it's a flat panel and not a Samsung, the odds of it accepting and displaying 240p properly is probably like 1%!

My old Panny took 240p fine. I wouldn't put is as low as 1%.

 

[NormalFish]

My old Panny took 240p fine. I wouldn't put is as low as 1%.

definitely not high enough to count on though, unfortunately.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Old, limited chart for sure, but worth a look to see just how even most flat panels that take 240p won't display it correctly.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Pretty sure that most of Sony's 2013-2014 models handle 240p correctly. It's blurrier than what you'd get from a proper upscaler, but all of the relevant visual effects (60fps drop shadow) are left intact.

 

[televator]

We can add Panasonic PZ800U to that list

 

[Khaz]

What are compatibility and processing tests?

 

[sixteen-bit]

This video is like the bizzaro version of this thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMiMz1uGCXI

 

[televator]

What are compatibility and processing tests?

I assume its what sets are compatible and then what compatible sets don't treat 240p as 480i.

 

[geniusbits]

How likely is one to run into JVC IF-C01COMG input cards for JVC TM-H150CG monitors? The monitors are showing up on eBay without the cards, having only composite and s-video inputs.

 

[Mega]

Not very likely. There were a bunch of these monitors a couple of months ago and you're right that more popped up again recently. They don't come standard with the input card, although check the pictures. Sometimes they're back there. That's how I got my cards.

 

[D.Lo]

This video is like the bizzaro version of this thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMiMz1uGCXI

Love old TVs.

 

[geniusbits]

Not very likely. There were a bunch of these monitors a couple of months ago and you're right that more popped up again recently. They don't come standard with the input card, although check the pictures. Sometimes they're back there. That's how I got my cards.

Damn I really want that monitor, it's listed for barely more than $100 so I might just grab it and see what happens. Is there any chance something else, like a card from another monitor, could be modded to work?

 

[Serge85]

For my NTSC PS1, if want to upscale to RGB can I buy an SCART PS1 cord, a box that changes SCART to YUV and then just use the YUV cord into my TV? How would I get sound in this situation as I know the box doesn't have the sound output as well?

Also, You can do an easy mod to get audio output:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNLBLV9kxag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP5vWiqbDbU

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

i just bought a PVM-D20L5A. am i in for something good? i wont get to see it for a month because im going away.

 

[Khaz]

This video is like the bizzaro version of this thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMiMz1uGCXI

Haha I love it. To bad the downscale artefacts are really prominent

 

[geniusbits]

i just bought a PVM-D20L5A. am i in for something good? i wont get to see it for a month because im going away.

Absolutely, that's generally considered the best PVM, with the ability to do up to 45khz and a TVL count more like a BVM.

 

[Toppot]

Hi there. I was wondering if I could ask for some advice.

I bought a RGB SCART cable for my PS1 but it has a weird issue on my tv. My TV is a Bush 28" LE-28GX01, I've tried looking at all the menu settings and found nothing of any use.

The Sony Computer Entertainment and Playstation logo are fine but I have tried 2 games and get the result in the picture as soon as the game itself loads.

What I don't understand is the TV works fine with the regular composite SCART and scales up the game fine. Anybody have any idea what is causing that? Have I missed a step somewhere?



My second problem is I bought, this cheap scart scaler , to try and output it to HDMI, but it looks like ass on the screen (worse than the TV's internal upscaler with regular scart). I assume this is because it is a cheap one rather than the more expensive one like the Micomsoft xRGB? Is there a way to scale it and output to HDMI cheaply without it looking so bad?

Any help would be greatly appreciated =]

 

[NormalFish]

I'd wager your TV isn't a fan of 240p. I thought the PS1 logo was also 240p, though, so I'm not sure of that.

This is, I believe, the right manual, but it doesn't seem to address the issue: http://www.argos-support.co.uk/import/tvs/manuals/1513644 LE-28GX01 Bush Home Asia.pdf

Can't find mention of 480i, let alone 240p.

That upscaler seems to be using composite video, not RGB. Some of them have such issues, and iirc it's related to the way your scart cable is wired. another member may be able to give you a better explanation. I believe the general consensus is that the quality of those cheap upscalers is actually passable, but they sometimes have nasty lag.

Here's the video I remember: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtWa3FZoZo0

 

[Pastor Steven Anderson]

So far I've been satisfied playing PS2 on my 20 gig PS3 model through component on my PVM (at 480p). Anyone know if there's a better option than this though? Only reason I'm using a PS3 as well is because of a PS2 not doing well with forced 480p. I tried GSM/Xploder and it's not very pleasant at all. I have no complaints with my current method but if I could do better I'd love to.

 

[Peagles]

I'd wager your TV isn't a fan of 240p. I thought the PS1 logo was also 240p, though, so I'm not sure of that.

They're both 480i.

 

[NormalFish]

They're both 480i.

wait, what do you mean by both? the PS logo and the game? I'm clearly missing something obvious here

 

[Peagles]

wait, what do you mean by both? the PS logo and the game? I'm clearly missing something obvious here

No I mean the Sony Computer Entertainment and the Playstation logo. So your hunch about 240p is probably bang on.

 

[NormalFish]

No I mean the Sony Computer Entertainment and the Playstation logo. So your hunch about 240p is probably bang on.

Ah. duh. lol. To be honest I never see them any more since I'm using a ps2 the mini. Totally forgot there were two separate logos

 

[Toppot]

I'd wager your TV isn't a fan of 240p. I thought the PS1 logo was also 240p, though, so I'm not sure of that.

This is, I believe, the right manual, but it doesn't seem to address the issue: http://www.argos-support.co.uk/import/tvs/manuals/1513644 LE-28GX01 Bush Home Asia.pdf

Can't find mention of 480i, let alone 240p.

That upscaler seems to be using composite video, not RGB. Some of them have such issues, and iirc it's related to the way your scart cable is wired. another member may be able to give you a better explanation. I believe the general consensus is that the quality of those cheap upscalers is actually passable, but they sometimes have nasty lag.

Here's the video I remember: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtWa3FZoZo0

Thank you very much for your reply. As you and Peagles suggest my TV seems unable to support 240p through my RGB cable at least (why it can accept 240p through my regular SCART cable I don't know but must be an internal thing to my TV, or something to do with the cable).

After much testing, swapping, consoles, cables, trying PS1 games on PS2 etc it does seem as though the RGB cable isn't wired correctly which is why the SCART to HDMI converter defaults to a composite signal.

As a solution I have ordered a different cable from a reputable site with euro wiring specifically and luma sync (they are sold out of CSYNC ones it seems, which I would prefer). So hopefully that will work with the converter and display pretty nicely on my TV. If not I will wait or find some way to get a cable with CSYNC or get a different SCART to HDMI converter.

Thank you again for your help. I will post if the new cable works or not when it gets here in a week or so.

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

Absolutely, that's generally considered the best PVM, with the ability to do up to 45khz and a TVL count more like a BVM.

oh wow. thanks. i was happy with it not being a dud. it wasnt cheap! i had been looking for a 20" one for a while.

 

[Beer Monkey]

The PSP Go with video output so perfectly mimics a PS1 that the boot time logos are also 480i, while the games are 240p (except for the rare 480i title that was coded that way). These logos are great for demonstrating the issue with 480i and flickering.

 

[Pastor Steven Anderson]

The PSP Go with video output so perfectly mimics a PS1 that the boot time logos are also 480i, while the games are 240p (except for the rare 480i title that was coded that way). These logos are great for demonstrating the issue with 480i and flickering.

Aren't the games actually 272p? I think if you ran it at 240p, you'd actually lose quite a bit of visual wouldn't you?

 

[Randomizer]

^Alright, np.



Selling for how much?

Sorry didn't see this till now. He was selling the PVM 20M4E for £125 but I was going to try barter it down a little. He also has a 1440qm for £25 which is pretty good but they only have 400 tv lines irc. Also has a bunch of cheaper JVC's for £5 but their line count was even lower than 400 think it was 350 or even 250. I can't remember the exact details I looked all this up days ago.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Aren't the games actually 272p? I think if you ran it at 240p, you'd actually lose quite a bit of visual wouldn't you?

I meant when you run PS1 games on a PSP Go or other model with video out. I should have been more specific.

 

[Mega]

Damn I really want that monitor, it's listed for barely more than $100 so I might just grab it and see what happens. Is there any chance something else, like a card from another monitor, could be modded to work?

I dunno, seems highly unlikely and not something anyone would commit time and energy to discover doing... due to how extremely niche its use would be.

There is a possible alternative we touched on a couple of pages ago. JVC, Panasonic and Ikegami each had a HD CRT that was basically identical, rebranded for each company. They all look to use the same input cards but with different code names.

JVC: IF-C01COMG
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/MONITOR/brochure/dtv1700cg.pdf
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/MONITOR/brochure/dtv1710cg.pdf

Ikegami: CPN-1700
http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/pdf/htm1700r.pdf

Panasonic: BT-YA702
http://www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model/777948/BT-H1700.pdf

 

[Madao]

something that had piqued my interest a while ago and that now i'm gonna try tackling is the difference between HDMI and Component outputs for Wii mode on a Wii U. i wanted to see if it looked the same or had some variation.
i set 720p for both modes since my receiver can't pass 1080p over component and i didn't want to mess too much with cables.
using the official Wii Component cable.

Component

HDMI

the difference is easily visible and seems like the analog output is only useful for someone that doesn't have a TV with HDMI inputs. otherwise, it's completely useless if you can use HDMI since it looks worse. it's even more apparent on the TV itself since 720p over component looks like it isn't even HD.

at least i managed to clear up this one before making a mistake and using the analog AV out.

 

[NormalFish]

Actually not such a massive difference, I'd say. Obviously apparent next to eachother, yes, but not night-and-day or anything really dramatic outside of maybe the clarity of the reds.

 

[televator]

Far as I can tell, component is softer and has a bit more noise between magenta and cyan. That's about it. Not bad.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

You also have to account for the possibility that your TV or capture device may not handle digital and analog sources exactly the same.

For example, "medium" sharpness on my TV (in which the TV is neither performing extra edge-enhancement nor extra blurring) is 50 for 1080p HDMI sources, but roughly 25 for 1080p component sources. The component setting seems to be finely tuned for lower resolution sources (480p), in which case 50 sharpness looks roughly correct for component.

 

[NormalFish]

So I've been playing Mushihimesama lately, and I've gotta say: the framemeister's low lag is admirable. I'm shit at these games, so it's well and possible it's just me, but I've not once felt that I didn't -- let alone couldn't -- dodge a bullet due to input lag.

Good shit.

Game is still hideous on my PS2, though. Gonna mess with some of FBX's profiles to see which looks nicest for this specific title.

 

[Mega]

There's some signal distortion across the middle green in the Component color bleed pattern. Maybe the Wii cable isn't that great or something else (capture card? audio cables?) is causing interference to make the overall picture worse than it should be. It's possible that particular TV is inferior at handling HD analog input... in the same way as people say some TVs have problems with 240p Component. I did a bit of digging to see what others have seen and this fellow on the AV forums said Component looks better on his HDTV. If you're saying Wii U 720p Component doesn't even look HD, I'd worry something is wrong at one or more levels within your setup.

You also have to account for the possibility that your TV or capture device may not handle digital and analog sources exactly the same.

For example, "medium" sharpness on my TV (in which the TV is neither performing extra edge-enhancement nor extra blurring) is 50 for 1080p HDMI sources, but roughly 25 for 1080p component sources. The component setting seems to be finely tuned for lower resolution sources (480p), in which case 50 sharpness looks roughly correct for component.

Yeah, this may be no different than the RGB vs Component comparisons, where a result may be put forth that Component is much worse than RGB on XYZ console... without factoring in uneven calibration at the display level between the two signal types. edit: but all of us knowing Nintendo's history of skimping, maybe the Wii U's Component output really is objectively worse.

 

[NormalFish]

Could display differences seriously generate that much color bleed? That seems so odd.

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

So I've been playing Mushihimesama lately, and I've gotta say: the framemeister's low lag is admirable. I'm shit at these games, so it's well and possible it's just me, but I've not once felt that I didn't -- let alone couldn't -- dodge a bullet due to input lag.

Good shit.

Game is still hideous on my PS2, though. Gonna mess with some of FBX's profiles to see which looks nicest for this specific title.

try his PS2RGBBL profile. i think its the most accurate to what it looks like on a crt.

 

[Madao]

You also have to account for the possibility that your TV or capture device may not handle digital and analog sources exactly the same.

For example, "medium" sharpness on my TV (in which the TV is neither performing extra edge-enhancement nor extra blurring) is 50 for 1080p HDMI sources, but roughly 25 for 1080p component sources. The component setting seems to be finely tuned for lower resolution sources (480p), in which case 50 sharpness looks roughly correct for component.

that makes a lot of sense. my TV has already showed me that, to get a similar picture, i need different sharpness levels in different modes. PC mode it is 50 while in regular it is 0 to produce optimal sharpness with HDMI sources.

it's very likely that not changing the sharpness is what made the image look so soft with 720p component.
(going from 1080p HDMI to that also exaggerates the difference a bit)

There's some signal distortion across the middle green in the Component color bleed pattern. Maybe the Wii cable isn't that great or something else (capture card? audio cables?) is causing interference to make the overall picture worse than it should be. It's possible that particular TV is inferior at handling HD analog input... in the same way as people say some TVs have problems with 240p Component. I did a bit of digging to see what others have seen and this fellow on the AVS forums said Component looks better on his HDTV. If you're saying Wii U 720p Component doesn't even look HD, I'd worry something is wrong at one or more levels within your setup.



Yeah, this may be no different than the RGB vs Component comparisons, where a result may be put forth that Component is much worse than RGB on XYZ console... without factoring in uneven calibration at the display level between the two signal types.

i used the same equipment for both so i'd say it's a difference in how the equipment handles HDMI vs component. it could also be some interference since Component is more likely to have noise affecting it.
looks like the part where i said "it doesn't look HD" was a bit of hyperbole from my part due to the differences in calibration on the TV since i've barely messed with sharpness with analog sources (i just assumed leaving it at 0 was best like with HDMI.)

edit: i didn't notice that interference in the green until you pointed it out but i checked and it can't be the cable. i used the same cable in past pictures from the Wii and that interference isn't there in those shots. it might be unique to the Wii U's analog output (but would need more research). another scenario is that my own Wii U is defective.

 

[NormalFish]

try his PS2RGBBL profile. i think its the most accurate to what it looks like on a crt.

I just went through all of his profiles and decided I still like the sharp profiles more. The blurred ones I don't feel really work for anything but later gen 3D games. Better with 480p than 480i for sure, too.

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

I just went through all of his profiles and decided I still like the sharp profiles more. The blurred ones I don't feel really work for anything but later gen 3D games. Better with 480p than 480i for sure, too.

sorry yes i mean for 3d, sharp is way better for 2d i agree.

 

[Mega]

Could display differences seriously generate that much color bleed? That seems so odd.

The worse PQ you see in the Component color bleed pattern (and in all the Component pics) is not color bleed. It's just a blurrier signal. This is color bleed:

The color bar patterns do show adjacent colors bleeding into each other but it's about the same in both HDMI and Component (a bit worse in the latter due to the feathering effect of the blur causing more overlap).

 

[NormalFish]

The worse PQ you see in the Component color bleed pattern (and in all the Component pics) is not color bleed. It's just a blurrier signal. This is color bleed:


The color bar patterns do show adjacent colors bleeding into each other but it's about the same in both HDMI and Component (a bit worse in the latter due to the feathering effect of the blur causing more overlap).

Yeah, I was specifically looking at the checkerboards and bars. regardless, that seems like an odd thing for a TV's calibrated to cause. particularly an LCD (or a capture card).

 

[Mega]

I'm not saying calibration must be to blame for the blurriness, although it's possible. Could be the TV just does a poor job displaying analog signals. I don't know. It may well be a third factor: Nintendo being Nintendo and Wii U has bad analog output because they sourced a crappy DAC. We all know about Wii having somewhat blurrier Component than the GameCube.