IrishNinja
Member
literally hasn't been a problem with high quality sets in forever now
what sucks is pioneer and panasonic are basically done with them, and they were (my opinion) some of the best ones out, easily
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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literally hasn't been a problem with high quality sets in forever now
what sucks is pioneer and panasonic are basically done with them, and they were (my opinion) some of the best ones out, easily
NormalFish
Banned
Think the general populous doesn't know this. I can't remember the last time I heard anything about a plasma screen outside of places like this that wasn't immediately followed by some mention of burn in.
Beer Monkey
Member
None on my 2008 Kuro.
I'm not saying CRTs were the way forward, but that LCDs would never have been given to us if their costs for all sides involved wasn't cheap. And that cheapness was more important than the superior PQ of competing display technologies. That's not weird alt history.
Plasma burn in was eradicated years ago. The only explanation for it continually coming up among consumers was deliberate misinformation at the retail level from retail chains and their salesmen trained to push the many LCDs on display.
As to OLED not catching on... people are still buying LCD in droves, in the form of new LED TVs, IPS monitors, portable devices and smartphones. That OLED has not caught on because people aren't buying anymore is downright false.
2013-2014:
Is OLED dead? The great hope for TV tech is fading fast
Production problems and high prices are holding OLED back
http://www.techradar.com/us/news/te...great-hope-for-tv-tech-is-fading-fast-1265506
2016:
Samsung sees no future for OLED TVs
http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/samsung-sees-no-future-for-oled-tvs.html
Samsung is betting on some quantum dot LCD tech which is (surprise) cheaper and easier for them to pursue. LG continues to be the sole large size OLED manufacturer because they have a method that makes it... cheap and easier than normal. A pattern is evident here.
Yes, of course a shitty low end LCD will look shitty. My disagreement is with CRT handling of non-native res material being supposedly inherently better. The reality is that there are HDTVs that handle non native res content brilliantly and there are also CRTs that do a pretty shitty job with non native res too. It's probably not as pervasive as with HDTV tech, but the idea that CRTs absolutely do better is a myth.
I'll be honest, I'm hoping all current technologies fail. It's a bummer that Plasma had to go, and LED, OLED... they ain't shit as far as either a real leap forward and/or a suitable replacement. Manufacturers are going to have to roll out a clear leap forward in display technology to get enthusiasts and the general public excited and ready to open their wallets. Perhaps even something that isn't constrained to physical living room space? IDK... but it better damn well not have the weaknesses of current technology.
I disagree with "4K is going nowhere" though. I mean it's not exactly flying off the shelves, but resolution is only going to go up and will probably only plateau once we hit 8k.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
And yet if you ask your coworkers what they know about plasma? First words out of their mouth will be burn-in.
Even when its not permanent significant image retention is a huge turnoff for normals -- nobody wants to do any kind of burn-in mitigation.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Prices would go down if there was demand and scale to their market. And high prices + weak demand for TVs all around makes that hard.
NormalFish
Banned
Ah okay, totally misinterpreted your comment, my bad.
Yeah, exactly. Plasma is pretty closely tied with the idea of burn in, regardless of if the units actually have the issue. Even now when I hear plasma that's what I think of, and I consider myself pretty well educated on these things.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, i realize sheepy is arguing why they didn't take the tech further, not the actual quality/reality of it...it's true, most folks just went with a cheaper LCD & factory floor settings and called it a day
how many of ya'll are at friends/family/diners etc and see movies/etc with that stock soap opera filter on? fucksake, im not nearly as bad as a lotta dudes on the AVS forum, but that shit is turrible
NormalFish
Banned
I have secretely turned off all of my relatives tv's nasty post processing either without telling them or just without saying anything. "Oh can I see the remote a sec? ...here we go.... Okay all good"
Saw it at my sister's place. They were so used to it they couldn't even see what I was talking about when I said their TV looked weird. I'm not pushy and prone to lording over people about superior PQ in real life so I just dropped it... but I still very badly wanted to fix their HDTV settings. Like an itch!
Yes, that would be great. I bought my plasma right when the 2012 Olympics began which was a nice treat with the OTA HD signal. Four years later and there's been no major leap to make me want to upgrade now or anytime soon.
If VR becomes affordable and popular, resolution for that line of products must continue up to 8k and past it. I remember Palmer saying 8K isn't enough and another guy from Oculus saying we need 16K to match the experience of viewing a regular monitor. More if we want finer, non-jagged detail.
Yes, that would be great. I bought my plasma right when the 2012 Olympics began which was a nice treat with the OTA HD signal. Four years later and there's been no major leap to make me want to upgrade now or anytime soon.
If VR becomes affordable and popular, resolution for that line of products must continue up to 8k and past it. I remember Palmer saying 8K isn't enough and another guy from Oculus saying we need 16K to match the experience of viewing a regular monitor. More if we want finer, non-jagged detail.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Whatever one or two aspects are the most important are going to depend on the person. For a person whose got some bad color blindness color accuracy isn't going to mean shit.
Both formats have their pros and cons, and no it isn't a clear cut winner.
Let's compare geometry on a widescreen CRT to a fixed pixel display. Hint The crt will lose EVERY SINGLE time.
For me personally geometry is a big thing, and it stands out like a sore thumb. I went through a shit ton of Widescreen CRTs because of this.
This whole definitive this or that thing needs to stop, because it's bullshit. Why the fuck can people not let people enjoy their preference. This thread constantly gets caught up in no crts are the bestest no upscallers are the bestest. It's annoying and stupid. It's the reason I keep saying the thread should be split.
People who play with upscallers on fixed pixel displays do so because they like those pros best, and people who play on CRTs, BVMs, and PVMs do so because they like those pros best. Leave it at fucking that.
There's been a lot of civil back and forth. Maybe take a break from the thread if it bugs you so much. I'm not seeing a reason to get so worked up, especially since the general tone (and content) of the discussion was well beyond "X > Y and fuck you if you disagree."
Not sure why you singled out my post among the couple of dozen arguing merits on each side. I only raised CRT's contrast and color superiority over most display types as a clarifying point to NormalFish assuming that Shadow was talking about mere sharpness:
Not sure why you singled out my post among the couple of dozen arguing merits on each side. I only raised CRT's contrast and color superiority over most display types as a clarifying point to NormalFish assuming that Shadow was talking about mere sharpness:
I need something like this eventually!
Shin Johnpv
Member
My response to your post was just about what IQ things that are the most important are going to vary from person to person.
The rest of it was dialed at the thread in general.
I just find posts like this (and its just one example in this thread)
passively aggressive stating of opinion as if it was fact. It's a constant thing in this thread. Where the first word in the thread is downplayed from the elitist crt enthusiasts.
I think it's annoying and I think I have a right to mention that, if people have the right to say it on nearly every page of the thread. You know without being told to leave the thread.
There is no point* in an audio mod in consoles with a synthesizer chip, that takes ROM data and makes triangle and square waves out of it. The sound output is so specific to each chip that you have to essentially emulate them to get digital out. With an FPGA audio chip and an FPGA video chip for digital output, you have to wonder why even using original hardware. It's more interesting, and authentic, to tap the audio at the chip output and drive it to an amp with proper cabling to avoid any contamination that could happen on the PCB or in poorly made AV cables.
For CD-based consoles however it's much more interesting. There is a proper DAC to convert digital CD music (and then everything else) to analogue, and that's easy to bypass to give to a modern, better DAC that would give you a potentially better sound. On a PS1 it's as easy as hijacking a few pins, on the Saturn it's a slightly more involved mod but nothing that can't be done.
* There is, specifically in an HDMI mod, as HDMI demands digital audio. But as a standalone? Eh.
Beer Monkey
Member
I sometimes have to remind myself that some people are OCD, and that perfect rows of identical little square pixels are something that they find deeply satisfying, and they'll never be happy with something like a CRT, where the image is not as structured or perfectly symmetrical. And that's OK.
I'm glad to not be one of them, but I understand.
But don't try to convert us, either.
I'm glad to not be one of them, but I understand.
But don't try to convert us, either.
I've looked into the PS1 mod and it wasn't a simple case of tapping some wires as you say. Afiak, it requires a chip that isn't manufactured anymore. So there seems to be more circuit building involved. If it were that simple, me and whole lot more owners would have done it already.
I wouldn't look into it so much. People speak using declarative statements all the time. It's repetitive and not second nature to preface every typed sentence with "I think" and "IMO." There is a CRT vs Upscaler vibe sometimes but I see it as equal give and take... and mostly harmless competitiveness between complementary approaches towards the same goal. I tend to think we are all enthusiasts (moreso than general gamers) in the same boat, not disparate individuals picking sides and trying to deliberately annoy and shit on each other's preferences. I think it's difficult to always let things go and instead fall into a mindset of misconstruing intent and seeing hostility where nothing bad was really meant).
I didn't meant that you need to leave. Sometimes it's good to take a step back when things get heated and come back with a clearer head. Although not in this thread, I have done it before myself.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Just skip reading posts. For example, I skip any posts where someome mentions capturing.
What? Why?
I find few posts are worth skipping in this thread. Only time I skip is when people need specific help with a PVM. Sorry m8s, there's plenty of CRT owners that can help.
NormalFish
Banned
I skip all posts from juniors
On multiple occasions I've seen gaffers get perma-juniored for saying stuff like this.
I skimp over posts that don't interest or aren't up my alley to offer advice but that's not what gets me wound up!... Unless you mean that posts about game capture make you mad
What's wrong with capturing?
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Zero interest in it.
NormalFish
Banned
being facetious I promise
I personally love it!!! Then again I'm a youtuber so that has something to do with it.
Nice try. Your anti-junior agenda has been noted and the appropriate mods have been contacted.
NormalFish
Banned
Already booking my flight to cuba
You're probably out of luck without a remote. Not sure if a universal one would work.
Pastor Steven Anderson
Banned
Sorry man, I didn't mean to fluster you. Probably should have pre-fixed it with a "imho," right?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I spent much of 2010-2014 shopping around for my first HDTV, on and off. I was incredibly picky about my selection, and I repeatedly looked through threads on NeoGAF and elsewhere weighing pros and cons and impressions of different technologies and sets.
The cult of plasma was downright weird. Year after year, I'd watch them swear up and down that burn-in was an ancient myth perpetuated by ignorance and ulterior motives, only for someone to come along once in a while and actually share screenshots of his burned-in plasma set that was only 2 years old or so. Then the backpedaling would come: "that's a one in a million case," "you must have not taken proper care of your TV," "you must have bought a very poor brand," "that's just 'image retention' (when the damage in question had been there for over a year already and certainly wasn't ever going to go away.)"
I don't know if I've ever come across any other enthusiast group that tried to downplay their brand's flaws as hard as these guys did.
Roughly 95% of my LCD monitor's usage in 2011-2012 was spent on Marvel vs Capcom 3 alone. Had it been a plasma set, I can only imagine how much regular maintenance would have been required to prevent image retention of that game's HUD. No thanks.
It's kind of a crap shoot. First of all, all the manuals I've seen explicitly say that burn in is not considered a manufacturing defect and is not covered by a warranty. Secondly, the closest thing I've experienced to burn in, appears to be very prolonged image retention on my late model Panasonic. It can take months to clear up, but is not permanent. Compare that to my old PZ800U which was pretty much bullet proof to burn in.
At any rate, it's best to be an owner who is also a vigilant care taker with plasma. One has to make it second nature to take breaks during gameplay and routinely make use of of the built in screen swiping scroll bar in the TV to be better safe than sorry when it comes to the condition of your screen.
At any rate, it's best to be an owner who is also a vigilant care taker with plasma. One has to make it second nature to take breaks during gameplay and routinely make use of of the built in screen swiping scroll bar in the TV to be better safe than sorry when it comes to the condition of your screen.
geniusbits
Member
Economics again. The cheapest, crappiest, PoS cheap cheap cheap terrible LCD ever COULD HAVE BEEN WORSE AND CHEAPER. The most expensive, best best best ever top of the line only sold to 3 millionaires TV COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER AND MORE EXPENSIVE. There is no dichotomy, it's always a sliding scale that works on the margins, and "inferior" technology is constantly being used being of price. In agriculture, lime is used to raise the pH of fields, even though lime is one of the weakest bases you can find. In technology terms, lime would be akin to the first visualizing screen ever produced that is large, uses a ton of energy and looks like shit. The reason lime is the industry standard is because it is cheap and plentiful, and even though you have to use a ton of it to accomplish what a small amount of strong base could do, it's still cheaper to use lime.
LCD, plasma, CRT, all of these techs have plusses and minuses, and their relative traits will change as each is developed. MIT just came out with an incandescent bulb that is more efficient than compact fluorescent. What?! Compact fluorescent is more efficient right? At certain points in their technological history, various methods are more or less effective, cost efficient etc. Imagine if all of a sudden there was a resource that only LCD needed that became extremely scarce, then they would no longer be cost effective the way they are now. Similarly, at some point in the future a cathode ray tube may be able to produce perfect geometry with a very flat, low-weight build. At this moment, however, the market has chosen LCD because it can put more pixels (that may look, depending on the quality of the set, a little less good) on the screen for less money and with less bulk and footprint in your room. If you want something better, as always, you have to pay for it, and don't be surprised if there are not enough of you out there to justify for a major corporation to devote huge sums of capital to producing for.
LCD, plasma, CRT, all of these techs have plusses and minuses, and their relative traits will change as each is developed. MIT just came out with an incandescent bulb that is more efficient than compact fluorescent. What?! Compact fluorescent is more efficient right? At certain points in their technological history, various methods are more or less effective, cost efficient etc. Imagine if all of a sudden there was a resource that only LCD needed that became extremely scarce, then they would no longer be cost effective the way they are now. Similarly, at some point in the future a cathode ray tube may be able to produce perfect geometry with a very flat, low-weight build. At this moment, however, the market has chosen LCD because it can put more pixels (that may look, depending on the quality of the set, a little less good) on the screen for less money and with less bulk and footprint in your room. If you want something better, as always, you have to pay for it, and don't be surprised if there are not enough of you out there to justify for a major corporation to devote huge sums of capital to producing for.
We're not farmers. We have no control over the tending of the land. The landscape is locked in. We can walk on it. We can even plant seeds. Yet, we can never change the topography or composition. That part is unchangable as the inherent flaws in certain HDTV technologies. An LED bulb is easy to manufacture, requires minimal circuitry, is made of easily recyclable materials, is more resilient than either incandescent or florescent, and is still vastly more efficient. Heck, you can touch it bare handed even whe it has been on for hours. It is truly superior. Sometimes, only a different technology is the answer.
Just to throw my 2-cents in on my Samsung Plasma (About 3 years old now): burn-in can definitely still be an issue. I'm pretty damn vigilant with running the scroll bars, but I have the local news logo burned into the bottom right corner of the screen from my wife turning the news on when she gets home from work (1 hour, 5 days a week).
Thankfully it's really minimal and can only be noticed when that part of the display is white, but it's definitely there.
That being said, the TV produces the best image I've ever seen in terms of colour and black levels, so it's a trade off.
Thankfully it's really minimal and can only be noticed when that part of the display is white, but it's definitely there.
That being said, the TV produces the best image I've ever seen in terms of colour and black levels, so it's a trade off.
geniusbits
Member
Actually we can change the land, and have. And yes tech is the answer, but it's earlier than you realize in tech history, and always will be. The flaws in some tech that you believe are inherent are not necessarily so, this has been shown again and again throughout history. Plenty of eminent scientists have egg on their face saying this or that will never be possible through this or that tech. The market has to be allowed to choose the best solution at any given time according to the current situation, which can change. That situation is both the natural resources as well as our ability to change them, it's all constantly in flux.
I'm back, a follow up to my last posts:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=204933363&postcount=16079
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=204938535&postcount=16086
I got the new RGB cable with the euro pinning and luma sync; though my TV still doesn't like the signal being 240p, it does show colour.
But when I plug it into my previously mentioned SCART to HDMI upscaler, it is now much sharper but it is greyscale, no colour what so ever =/ The original cables still show colour on the upscaler, it just seems it doesn't like something about the new cable, it seems to accept the RGB but has stripped the colour. Its in 50Hz and I have a PAL console/disc/tv.
I guess I need to try another upscaler? Or do I need to get the cable with CSYNC in it?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=204933363&postcount=16079
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=204938535&postcount=16086
I got the new RGB cable with the euro pinning and luma sync; though my TV still doesn't like the signal being 240p, it does show colour.
But when I plug it into my previously mentioned SCART to HDMI upscaler, it is now much sharper but it is greyscale, no colour what so ever =/ The original cables still show colour on the upscaler, it just seems it doesn't like something about the new cable, it seems to accept the RGB but has stripped the colour. Its in 50Hz and I have a PAL console/disc/tv.
I guess I need to try another upscaler? Or do I need to get the cable with CSYNC in it?
A florescent can't be made as efficient as an LED in all aspects. An LED damn near produces a current by itself because of its inherent properties. Those properties being silicon that is abundantly available and less damaging to the environment. That's simply not the case with fluorescents. Ina fluorescent, a rather complex circuit is required. Maybe the toxic elements inside could be replaced with something less hazardous, but the fact still remains that the bulb is more wasteful in total material. The market isn't some omnipotent phenom that can magically overcome physical reality.
geniusbits
Member
Print this out and keep it on your wall for 50 years please.
I'll put this convo right next to my collection of Jesus returning on X date collection.
geniusbits
Member
Am reading a book on economics and science and found this gem of a page about early HDTV research and politics. Digital vs. analog HDTV standards!
geniusbits
Member
Put these right next to it.
"There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will." Albert Einstein, 1932
"Rail travel at high speed is not possible because passengers, unable to breathe, would die of asphyxia." Dr. Dionysius Lardner, 1830
"X-rays will prove to be a hoax." Lord Kelvin, President of the Royal Society, 1883
"Everyone acquainted with the subject will recognize it as a conspicuous failure." -Henry Morton, president of the Stevens Institute of Technology, on Edison's light bulb, 1880
MIT work on incandescent: http://news.mit.edu/2016/nanophotonic-incandescent-light-bulbs-0111
Plugged my ps2 in for the first time in a while and noticed something odd using the component cables. I saw this static line that slowly went from the bottom to the top of the TV. My guess is that it's the cord I'm using as i don't think it's Sony branded, has anyone has this issue before?
Also what video out should I select on the ps2 main menu? I noticed there was y pbpr and rgb but when I selected rgb I had no signal on my TV.
Using a newer Sony bravia 42 inch by the way for my TV.
Also what video out should I select on the ps2 main menu? I noticed there was y pbpr and rgb but when I selected rgb I had no signal on my TV.
Using a newer Sony bravia 42 inch by the way for my TV.
Don't use RGB if you don't have an RGB cable, stick with ypbpr.
Yeah it didn't even output in rgb so I changed back. The picture quality looks good it's just that static line that's bit annoying. Looks like cable degradation. Anyone have a link to where I can buy an official ps2 component cable? Lots of places seem to sell 3rd parties as legit.
Here. These work perfectly with the PS2 as I own one BTW.
Huggers
Member
Comparison of a BVM 20G1E to a Bang & Olufsen MX4002 which some of you guys might find interesting. https://youtu.be/8mn0EmfBPn8
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