wapplew
Member
Can they add a CPU in that RX480 die that soon?
Polygon: Xbox Scorpio will be a ~6 TFLOP system (v PS4K's 4.14), unveil soon, Fall 17
- Thread starter BUNTING1243
- Start date
Can they add a CPU in that RX480 die that soon?
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
I think it's more to do with the fact that Sony was the market leader and they are doing something that seems weird (starting a fresh generation, essentially) while Microsoft's Xbox One started on very rocky ground and a new console could right the ship so to speak. Scorpio will be a console launched under Microsoft's new leadership and, assuming Spencer meant this, Scorpio will not simply be Xbox 1.5. There's more unknown about Microsoft's plan for Scorpio than Sony's plan for PS4k (which is presumably meant to be a mid-generational upgrade that's more prepared for PSVR).
GHG
Member
But none of the rumors have suggested Scorpio was 2016, they specifically said 2017.
Scorpio will be Xbox 1.5 but they just won't market it as Xbox 1.5.
Don't be so sure. If they put in Zen and HBM2 AND Vega, and angle it for next year, that will have been pretty much a generational upgrade, especially on the CPU and RAM sides.
CPU power has been the one thing that has been lacking on consoles since the start of seventh generation, and Zen presumably would put them back in the high tier, even with a lower powered console/notebook variant
Compsiox
Banned
With UWP and the backwards compatibility they'll most definitely have, they won't need to market it as a 1.5.
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
Scorpio will be Xbox 1.5 but they just won't market it as Xbox 1.5
Depends on the power difference, how games are handled with Scorpio vs the One, and the fact that Oculus Rift will likely be available, given the rumors, on Scorpio but not the One do suggest that Scorpio may be a substantial upgrade. Scorpio might be the start of a larger strategy that will potentially change the Xbox platform, while PS4K may not be that huge of a change in direction for Sony.
I mean, last E3 there were partnerships announced for both the Rift and Vive (Microsoft partnerships, that is), who is to say the Scorpio won't support both? That would be something.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
You could also compare it to the 360 vs PS3 situation, or PS2 vs Original Xbox. Power is important, but it tends to be a lesser factor in most cases.
We are in majorly uncharted territory with these mid-generation upgrade consoles, so maybe the momentum Sony has won't matter in a few years.
GHG
Member
If it releases this year then I think HBM2 is out. But next year? Possibly.
It will be a substantial upgrade in terms of power no doubt but if they continue to support the xb1 and ensure all future games are released on both consoles with cross-play etc then it will ultimately still be a ".5" iterative upgrade.
Maybe they have by saying Neo is PS4 slim, available October for 299$.
With Scorpio Microsoft is using the same design on the same manufacturing process to get 50% more power than the Neo. Given that there's no difference in knowledge there has to be a large difference in price and heat between the two systems.
Maybe Microsoft goes for core gamers and Sony for a more casual audience.
Maybe they are launching it Spring 2017?
Do they have time to put in Zen for a spring release?
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
A traditional generational upgrade is on the order of ~8x power increases.
Rumours are placing this at more like 2.5-3x at best. So while that's a significant upgrade, calling it generational is probably a bit too far. It's using next generation memory but overall, not really.
Zen would also be out considering we don't have any word from Sony about including Zen, and the turnaround between the two publishers would not be that fast.
Of course we did hear rumors about them including a better CPU for 499...but what exactly is MS's plan if that is their plan? Gonna eat the cost of a Zen CPU, HBM2 AND a brand new Vega variant like that?
I thought rumors were over 4 times performance.
pixelation
Member
lol, speak for yourself mister...
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Oh you're right, 4 and a bit, but that would still be less than normal by a significant margin. If they stick with like 8GB of system memory as with the Neo especially, although I don't think we've heard anything about that.
Your referring to GPU power with that number, but the CPU increase from Xenos to Jaguar was only around 3x, in which Jaguar lagged far behind other competitors at the time to begin with.
Going from Jaguar to Zen(if they really can compete with i5 and i7 branded CPUs) would be on another level from that.
And i don't know HBM2's bandwidth roadmaps, but i do know they have been hyping it 1tb/s bandwidths for a while now?
RowdyReverb
Member
I think this will end up being the new generational upgrade. This along with backward/forward compatibility, makes me think the very definition of console generations is about to get much fuzzier moving forward.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
If your competitor beat you to the punch announcing a mid-generation upgrade, of course you'd claim your upgrade is the "real" upgrade.
In the end, I don't think the masses will have a major issue with either Neo or Scorpio, especially now that MS/Sony have given them no choice but acceptance or PC gaming.
We really don't have enough info on either new console, we need some E3 announcements or new leaks.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Not just GPU power, also total system memory i.e.
PS > PS2 > PS3 > PS4
2+1 (3) MB > 32+4+2+2 (42) MB > 256+256 (512) MB > 8 GB
More than tenfold increases each time. I think 16GB could be a plausible figure to upgrade to, but 16GB HBM2? Ehhhh not so sure. To preserve compatability we might even see something odd like high speed DDR4 alongside the regular fast ram buffer. You're correct that the PS4/XB1 CPUs were extremely pathetic (and still are), but I don't think we're going to see something 3-4x more powerful in these price ranges and thermal envelopes in early 2017.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
The more I think about it, the more I think Scorpio will come this year.
That just could be my delirium talking though. The wait for E3 is painful this year.
That just could be my delirium talking though. The wait for E3 is painful this year.
pixelation
Member
You strike me as a knowledgeable fellow, what do you think MS's plans are for the Scorpio?, gaining the lead in the next gen wars by getting the more powerful unit on shelves?, who is going to make games that benefit from said specs when the majority of the gaming population will most likely remain on Sony's side? (PS4+PS4K), just MS exclusives and the occasional 3rd party money hatted exclusive?, would developers be willing to gamble on making next gen games for one sole SKU?, chances of MS having success versus having it blow up in their face?
The memory increase will not happen again at the same size like it did before.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I think that's pretty obvious yes. Media size isn't going to go up drastically and an 8x increase would be bigger than the current dual layer blu-rays, lol.
Night Angel
Member
Seems like you're getting your hopes up. As far as I'm aware, they don't have a cheap 5.5 TF APU, which is likely what would go into a console. Your hype may be clouding your judgment. The rumor states late 2017, so to jump to late 2016 based on a graphics card release seems to be a stretch (though I've kept my hype in check entirely because these rumors never quite pan out how they initially are reported).
Well, there is the rub isn't it?
My view is that they have been beaten down by the power argument for so long, they just want to be in the lead again in that respect, and put all the bad blood of XB1 behind them and hopefully gain the hype factor. Which i say good on them. They should do what they can.
But their ecosystem is still their biggest flaw, because devs are still making games for XB1 and PS4, and they want full compatibility forwards and backwards to keep their user base on board, they will have to compromise on taking advantage of Scorpio for that, atleast for a few years. By which time, Sony's "Neo" mid gen cycle will have been over with and their next box acting as the full generation upgrade from PS4 will be around.
Personally speaking though, i think power really means very little. What matters are the games and the users interest in them. And MS, on the console side, still hasn't figured that out beyond North America....which they are still losing more market share to PC and Sony every day.
Sony has cultivated an ecosystem over the years that just generally is hard to beat. Even at their worst in the PS3 years, they still beat back a 10 million 360 lead.
I told this exact same thing to my bf like an hour ago lol. yea, I also noticed the difference in the mood. plainly weird.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
It kinda looks to me like some are coming around to the realization that having the most powerful box, while a nice thing to brag about, isn't nearly as important to the success or overall appeal as some might want to think.
Regardless of what the specs end up being for either of these new consoles coming out, we know that the people actually making the games have more than enough power at their fingertips to do amazing things. And both right now appear like they will be pretty big upgrades over their predecessors.
Regardless of what the specs end up being for either of these new consoles coming out, we know that the people actually making the games have more than enough power at their fingertips to do amazing things. And both right now appear like they will be pretty big upgrades over their predecessors.
Proelite
Member
Anyone who thinks otherwise, has not been around for very long in the console space to know otherwise i'd feel. If a unit has its appeal, the power isn't going to stop it from being bought over the competition
pixelation
Member
Yeah, i agree with you. We'll just have to wait and see how it all actually plays out. Thanks for your two cents on the subject.
Bitch Pudding
Member
They'll come up with the most TFLOPS $399 can get you, at some point... For some reason I doubt they're that interested into introducing a premium priced console (ever again).
...Scatter...
Banned
I mean... PC is fine right? Is PC having trouble maximizing graphics in games? A lot of these third parties release on PC too. Why would they have trouble utilizing the Scorpio all of a sudden? The didn't have any trouble upping the rez on PS4 games vs. XB1.
Maybe they'll release Ryse Scorpio edition for you bud. Then you'll be there day 1
wapplew
Member
So there is still enough space to fit a CPU.
Panos Pananay with some Nutella spread will make shit happen and dreams come true.
Believeeee!!!
Proelite
Member
It's actually 232mm2.
There is enough space to fit a 32 core Zen CPU on the Xbone sized chip, or 16 core + esram.
Bitch Pudding
Member
At the end it's more important how the market the new console. If Phil wants to go on with "big numbers", they'll call it a new generation and people will think it is. That said, this will be a tough call if they don't offer exclusive non-VR games.
Of course, it is possible to screw that one up, like Nintendo did with WiiU, whose name made many people think it is just an upgrade of the Wii.
Agnostic Priest
Member
Would it be possible for Scorpio to be able to take a game developed for PC and just scale it down to run efficiently?
MS have been pushing UWP, cross play, cross buy, windows 10 on XB1.... I think the Scorpio will take it all the way. Developers would be all over it if they would have to develop for PS4 and PC, getting the Scorpio basically developed for free.
Having said that though, all of these games need to play on XB1. So maybe that wouldn't work out at all until they leave the XB1 behind
MS have been pushing UWP, cross play, cross buy, windows 10 on XB1.... I think the Scorpio will take it all the way. Developers would be all over it if they would have to develop for PS4 and PC, getting the Scorpio basically developed for free.
Having said that though, all of these games need to play on XB1. So maybe that wouldn't work out at all until they leave the XB1 behind
Most AAA PC games are constrained by what the consoles can do because of the user bases and the inherent limitations of that hardware. The Scorpio, which has such a lead in power will be no different having to support the lesser hardware.
Having more refined sliders, higher resolutions and framerates for the same games is inherently different from taking full advantage of the platform, unless they make exclusives for it, which generally is seen as a bad move unless it is marketed as a brand new platform, something Neo is not intended to be from what we know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH2w2l1JTs4
Even after all these years, i still laugh.
pixelation
Member
Personally speaking i was talking about making the most out of the specs on offer (Scorpio), such a thing would most likely require games to be built with Scorpio's specs in mind. Not just PS4/XBO games with higher-res, better IQ and frame rate. Only MS exclusives and games that MS pays developers to develop for Scorpio exclusively would really make them (specs) show.
...Scatter...
Banned
Well it'll have Halo 6. And Crackdown 3. And they'll probably uprez Gears if they're not already working on releasing it on both systems and planning accordingly. They may ask Platinum to beast out Scalebound too. Then we'll get Forza and Horizon. It won't come down to exclusives though to be honest. It's about that COD, Destiny, Madden, Fifa, Asscreed mindshare.
Fair enough. I agree it's different from first party per se. I get what you're getting at. Personally I've been looking at how the multiplats look on PC and have been Jelly, so I'm happy with those extras in resolution, AA, lighting, etc.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
I'm not sure winning the spec wars for a mid-generation console upgrade is worthwhile, past the marketing bullet-point. In order not to screw over the vanilla console owners, you have to implement limitations that might have normally helped differentiated the power difference
Ultimately, a 1+ or 2+ teraflop difference limited soley to visual fidelity may not translate into enough of a discernable difference from your nearest competitor in the eyes of the average consumer to buy you much.
Going to be very interested in seeing how it all plays out...
Ultimately, a 1+ or 2+ teraflop difference limited soley to visual fidelity may not translate into enough of a discernable difference from your nearest competitor in the eyes of the average consumer to buy you much.
Going to be very interested in seeing how it all plays out...
Except Sony is doing the same thing. So they have to.
And people who don't have a Xbox One but have a PS4 might be more interested in also picking up an XB1 is it's the most powerful option.
And it's not like the lower priced Slim model won't still be available as well.
I dont think the GPU is the issue, I think Zen and HBM2 being ready is the issue if that is the direction they are going. Both of those seem to be slated for Spring 2017.
RichiRamjag
Member
As said by others, it's most likely not going to be a defining factor for either system. You're looking at higher resolutions and frame rates tops, unless MS or Sony plan on providing exclusive games to those systems which would cause some panic. The only big thing I could see causing folks to lean one way or the other would be 60fps vs 30.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
MS definitely has to, and likely planned to from the beginning...I'm just saying that usual "spec wars" comparison gets deflated a bit given the built-in vanilla console limitations.
A couple teraflop difference would matter more within the traditional generational cycle (ala PS5 vs Xbox Next). You might be able to get added features or performance that sets you apart, but the vanilla console limitations put a cap on most of that.
It's a talking point though. Spewed by many including those on GAF. So it clearly holds some significance.