Polygon: Xbox Scorpio will be a ~6 TFLOP system (v PS4K's 4.14), unveil soon, Fall 17

Dee Dah Dave said:
The smaller market share of the XB1 is primarily made up of core Xbox fans, most of which are adults with disposable income. I'm sure the majority will be quite happy to move on to a much better machine, and that's what Microsoft will want.

They aren't going to put the effort into releasing a machine with a 6TF GPU, better CPU and RAM, only to hamstring it by having to stay in line with a product that has cost them dearly.

Designing Halo 6 around the XB1 when you have this new beastly Xbox to work with? Please.

The XB1 slim will serve as an interim product to keep them ticking over until Scorpio's launch. Then afterwards be a cheap alternative to play the back catalogue and new games like COD, FIFA and Indies. As usual. They aren't going to sell a boat load of them at any price, not when there's 4+ better alternatives out there in Scorpio, Neo, PS4 and NX.

I could of course be wrong but I doubt it.
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1 .20 million people are primarily core users and most of them will be happy to move onto the next machine? What ass did you pull that information out of?

2. The new machine won't be hamstrung by the XBO. All of that is up to the developer. UWP allows for scalability (which has been mentioned before) just as a developer scales PC games. This isn't like old generations.

3. Halo 6 will most likely come out in 2018 and will probably be for Win10/XBO/XBS scaling what's being shown. They probably moving their engine to UWP (hence why we are getting Forge on PC) to allow for that because that will have the most reach.

4. Slim is there because that's when console makers do after years of having a product out, they make it better, smaller, cheaper. The slim is just an XBO. Most people buy what they can afford, not because there are better alternatives. Consoles sell the most once they reach $199.

All in all, I think you are looking at this like a regular console generation when it's really not the same. Will the XBO be "phased out"...well, eventually, like everything else...but it all depends on the developers and what they are instructed to do by their publishers (who look for the most bang for buck). The best way to look at it is that the Xbox One is a PC and every console after that is a PC from the sense that they are backwards and forwards compatible with software if they meet the min. requirements of the product.
 
Tatsumi Oga said:
So according to DC Neo is definitely using Polaris, but do we know anything else about Scorpio except for the 6tflops? Is it using Polaris as well? Or is that still all up in the air?
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As of right now it's quite difficult to tell as the Scorpio doesn't actually exist whereas the Neo already has devkits out. Microsoft clearly wants to communicate a target of 5-6tf partially as a response to Neo rumours but whether they hit it, how they do and what the price for it will be is not set in stone and are things that will be more known when the system is actually near being out.
 
Damn. The xbox really does bring out the worst in people. Sony has to do this, Sony has to do that. If you are happy with your platform of choice , than there is no need for it to match whateva. But....
You gotta make your self laugh.
 
Freeman said:
That makes no sense. 500 will be relatively close to 1000 if you put it next to 1 billion.
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Exactly, that's why a 0.5 teraflop difference on systems with a single digit teraflop is a much lesser difference than 2 teraflops on systems which still have single digit teraflops of performance.

Having said that, the difference of Ps4 xbone are not just flops, Ps4 has more ROPs, more texture units, faster memory and a bigger pool at that. Sure there are some advantages on the xbone side as well, but it's hard to tell how much of the performance delta is solely due the flop count.
 
The upgrade is big enough that MS should just start the new generation. All that power is going to be heavily underutilized if the baseline is going to be Xbox One. You know MS is not going to put any pressure to use the hardware (maybe mandatory 1080p like the Neo)

I guess it is all moot if this going to be priced $399 while having a slimmer Xbox One at a cheaper price, but unless MS have special marketing deals with popular third parties to utilize the hardware & have their own first party studios really go all out, I don't see the audience for this or Neo for that matter. The longer the gen goes, the more price conscious consumers are.
 
Detective said:
Damn. The xbox really does bring out the worst in people. Sony has to do this, Sony has to do that. If you are happy with your platform of choice , than there is no need for it to match whateva. But....
You gotta make your self laugh.
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*Fanboyism brings out the worst in people.

Don't make me bring out the FF13 death threats!
 
godelsmetric said:
with the news that PS4 Neo is going to be using RX 480, suddenly the idea that "Scorpio" could be significantly more powerful seems to have gone out the window. in fact if anything I would bet on a PS4/Xbone situation where they're using the same parts but Sony have more cleverly managed die space and have a substantial lead. sorry scorpio, back in the dumpster with you.
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So hard to tell what/who is serious...
 
Zedox said:
1 .20 million people are primarily core users and most of them will be happy to move onto the next machine? What ass did you pull that information out of?

2. The new machine won't be hamstrung by the XBO. All of that is up to the developer. UWP allows for scalability (which has been mentioned before) just as a developer scales PC games. This isn't like old generations.

3. Halo 6 will most likely come out in 2018 and will probably be for Win10/XBO/XBS scaling what's being shown. They probably moving their engine to UWP (hence why we are getting Forge on PC) to allow for that because that will have the most reach.

4. Slim is there because that's when console makers do after years of having a product out, they make it better, smaller, cheaper. The slim is just an XBO. Most people buy what they can afford, not because there are better alternatives. Consoles sell the most once they reach $199.

All in all, I think you are looking at this like a regular console generation when it's really not the same. Will the XBO be "phased out"...well, eventually, like everything else...but it all depends on the developers and what they are instructed to do by their publishers (who look for the most bang for buck). The best way to look at it is that the Xbox One is a PC and every console after that is a PC from the sense that they are backwards and forwards compatible with software if they meet the min. requirements of the product.
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1- The donkey i pulled it from is the same one that happens every gen. Did people move on from the Xbox to the Xbox 360? Or any other console? You think Sony don't want everyone to ditch the PS4 and buy the Neo?

2- UWP is just a file format, nothing more. It's 3D game engines that determine the effectiveness of scale-abilty across multiple hardware configurations. UWP just packages it all up when it's done.

3- Moving their engine to UWP? See above. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry. Even if that were true (which it isn't), the Scorpio hardware would have to be heavily underutilized to maintain compatibility with the XB1. It's not just graphics but a (likely) much more competent CPU than the Jaguar. The architecture of the Scorpio will be significantly different than the XB1. This isn't the same as PS4 to Neo, we are talking much faster CPU, completely different RAM setup AND 4x+ more GPU grunt. Those aren't just magically compatible with each other when it comes to game development.

4- If you think the Slim is going to sell gangbusters for MS then I don't know what to say. The XB1 is struggling right now against the competition, and there's soon to be several more products in the mix. By the time it hits $199 it will be a relic that very few care about. The market is being pushed forward with new hardware iterations, not dwelling on old (and failed) products. That's what this whole hoo haa is about, yet you think the Xb1 is yet to have it's shining glory? Come on.

5- Yes I do believe that Microsoft are going to treat this as a new generation, as I have stated many times. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, I can accept that.
 
Computer said:
I am curious about the partnership with MS and Oculus. Oculus may help cover some of the development cost considering they could sell a lot of headsets along with the new console.
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Seems like a mutually beneficial arrangement that cancels each other out. I doubt Facebook would pay anything towards it.
 
Tagyhag said:
*Fanboyism brings out the worst in people.

Don't make me bring out the FF13 death threats!
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=327004

popcorn-blank.gif
 
Dee Dah Dave said:
...

2- UWP is just a file format, nothing more. It's 3D game engines that determine the effectiveness of scale-abilty across multiple hardware configurations. UWP just packages it all up when it's done.
...
Click to expand...

I'm not an expert on the matter, but I'm 99% sure UWP is more than just a file format. From what I can tell, UWP is similar in concept to a JVM. The devs write code that utilizes the UWP API and they compile their code against the UWP compiler. Windows 10 would then have a UWP runtime which allows the apps to run on various devices.
 
HAWDOKEN said:
I'm not an expert on the matter, but I'm 99% sure UWP is more than just a file format. From what I can tell, UWP is similar in concept to a JVM. The devs write code that utilizes the UWP API and they compile their code against the UWP compiler. Windows 10 would then have a UWP runtime which allows the apps to run on various devices.
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^^^^^ I believe the above to be true.
 
HAWDOKEN said:
I'm not an expert on the matter, but I'm 99% sure UWP is more than just a file format. From what I can tell, UWP is similar in concept to a JVM. The devs write code that utilizes the UWP API and they compile their code against the UWP compiler. Windows 10 would then have a UWP runtime which allows the apps to run on various devices.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is a bit more than just a file format, but it's nothing like what the other member was suggesting. It can assist with game distribution across different hardware, but not development. UWP has nothing to do with graphics scale-ablity or game engines.
 
ProvenDeadly said:
I haven't read into what is going into the Scorpio but I'm assuming that Ms will be selling this thing at a loss then?
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Why would they be selling at loss. The RX 480 is a 5.5 tflop gpu that costs $200 MSRP.

Microsoft would not be paying market price nor would they require the circuit board, cooling, etc that the market gpu requires.
 
Freeman said:
I must be insane, it only makes sense to look at the relative difference. Using the logic some are using here, you could say the difference between a MegaDrive and a SNES was non existent since it was lesser than 0.5TFLOP or whatever.

People making fun of me while failing to grasp the most basic concept. We need a Polygon pie chart to clear things up.

To make it as clearly as possible look at the difference between what a XB1 and a PS4 can achieve and a GTX 1080, even that doesn't produce as big of a difference as you would expect give how game made to work on more humble systems.



That makes no sense. 500 will be relatively close to 1000 if you put it next to 1 billion.
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I was making the same arguments as you yesterday. Was appalled at having to explain what relative comparisons are.

Comparing how powerful one console should be against another should always be relative to each other.

I.e this console is 1.5x more powerful, not this console is 2tf more powerful.

The perceived difference in graphical capability between a 100 gflops system and 200 flops, should be the same perceived difference between 1 teraflop and 2 teraflop system, provided that everything else including ram etc is a non factor.
 
bidguy said:
i hope something similar happens this year. dont care on which side lol
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It's funny to see people get angry about other people getting to enjoy the same things they're enjoying. I understand outrage from exclusives/timed malarkey where things are being withheld from a group of people - but the opposite situation? I just can't understand that thinking.
 
HAWDOKEN said:
I'm not an expert on the matter, but I'm 99% sure UWP is more than just a file format. From what I can tell, UWP is similar in concept to a JVM. The devs write code that utilizes the UWP API and they compile their code against the UWP compiler. Windows 10 would then have a UWP runtime which allows the apps to run on various devices.
Click to expand...
It's not a file format, and it's not a VM either.

It's a platform that encompasses many things. It describes an app model (what is an app, what an app can do, when the app is allowed to run and how an app should be removed), it has a common set of tools and apis, accessory support, a common language... Many apis so the devs can use (that obviously tie to Ms services) and so on.


Dee Dah Dave said:
Yes, it is a bit more than just a file format, but it's nothing like what the other member was suggesting. It can assist with game distribution across different hardware, but not development. UWP has nothing to do with graphics scale-ablity or game engines.
Click to expand...

Actually it has. Ms has a common set of tools available to uwp apps and games, that were made precisely to add scaling performance and visuals across many devices.

And engines do have to be ported to uwp (or more precisely, updated to deploy a uwp game), but it's a simpler task than it sounds, because the uwp supports C/C++, and also Directx 11 and 12.
 
looking for clarification from those with more knowledge on the subject than i...

people keep saying that the (rumored) difference between neo and scorpio is about the same as that of x1 and ps4. these people point to the math that the difference for both sets of systems is in the ballpark of a 40% difference in power (tflops). isnt this a very flawed argument though? wont a difference of nearly 2 tflops result in much more significant gains then this gens differences between x1 and ps4 which mainly resulted in minor performance differences and a step down in resolution?
 
HAWDOKEN said:
I'm not an expert on the matter, but I'm 99% sure UWP is more than just a file format. From what I can tell, UWP is similar in concept to a JVM. The devs write code that utilizes the UWP API and they compile their code against the UWP compiler. Windows 10 would then have a UWP runtime which allows the apps to run on various devices.
Click to expand...

Nope uwp can be compiled to native code.
Microsoft actually working on a project that will compiler c# code to native code.

Unless c++ uwp apps are run on the CLR.
Uwp is just a API that is implemented on all
Windows 10 platforms that is why you can code a Windows 10 desktop app, modify the xaml screens and it will also run on Windows 10 mobile.

Pretty sure Sony will do the same with ps4 and the Neo.
 
op_ivy said:
looking for clarification from those with more knowledge on the subject than i...

people keep saying that the (rumored) difference between neo and scorpio is about the same as that of x1 and ps4. these people point to the math that the difference for both sets of systems is in the ballpark of a 40% difference in power (tflops). isnt this a very flawed argument though? wont a difference of nearly 2 tflops result in much more significant gains then this gens differences between x1 and ps4 which mainly resulted in minor performance differences and a step down in resolution?
Click to expand...
Of course it will, look at how Uncharted 4 makes use of 1.85 TF. The difference alone between Neo and Scorpio is the same amount that Uncharted 4 uses resource-wise.
It makes sense to use magnitude when the base value is still small.
Edit: hell, it makes sense to use magnitude in any case if the difference is equal to half of the entire system...
 
I like that people who are pre-sweating Scorpio, a system that's merely rumoured, are already grasping at straws to end their nightmares. The paragraph mentioning the 480 even starts with "It's also worth noting that - clock-speeds and resultant TFLOPs aside".

Ahh, they put a Radeon 480X graphics card in there. Nice. Knew Sony wouldn't leave us hanging.
 
op_ivy said:
looking for clarification from those with more knowledge on the subject than i...

people keep saying that the (rumored) difference between neo and scorpio is about the same as that of x1 and ps4. these people point to the math that the difference for both sets of systems is in the ballpark of a 40% difference in power (tflops). isnt this a very flawed argument though? wont a difference of nearly 2 tflops result in much more significant gains then this gens differences between x1 and ps4 which mainly resulted in minor performance differences and a step down in resolution?
Click to expand...

It is a flawed argument. Always has been. it doesn't factor in bandwidth, or memory speed which is a huge limiting factor in game performance. There's also efficiency improvements or even features that can make a big difference then a raw on paper number like Tflops.
 
etta said:
Of course it will, look at how Uncharted 4 makes use of 1.85 TF. The difference alone between Neo and Scorpio is the same amount that Uncharted 4 uses resource-wise.
It makes sense to use magnitude when the base value is still small.
Edit: hell, it makes sense to use magnitude in any case if the difference is equal to half of the entire system...
Click to expand...

Sadly, in reality, the difference will likely just be soaked up with a bump in res or framerate. Not that these things aren't desired of course.
 
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